An outsider's perspective of the "Great Atheist/Theist" debate...

[Solon]

I call myself the "outsider" because, as an Atheist would say to a Christian "I contend we are both Atheists, I just believe in one less God than you do." That statement doesn't apply to me, I'm a polytheist, and a rather strict one at that, all divine personalities are separate.
For a more extensive look, this guy summarized it pretty good.

This puts me in a rather odd position on a board that seems dominated by both Monotheists and Atheists/Agnostics. I enjoy reading the flame wars, they are rather amusing to a certain extent. This is because the arguments of the Atheists are the same ones that Christians of many sorts, not all mind you, say to me IRL and on other message boards.

One thing I do notice is the "Talking at" syndrome as well as talking over your heads as well. This is partially the fault of way message boards are and also the problem with the colored lenses that all of us have. One thing that does rankle a little bit are statements of the type that lumps all religions into the same category. If I were to categorize religions, it would be like this:

Strict Hierarchal Religions
Organized Religions
Loosely Organized Religions
Diasporas Religions
Mystical Religions
Personal Religions
Spirituality

Note this, these categories bear NO resemblance to the actual beliefs of a religion, most followers of any religion can be put into or accross such categories. As with everything to do with the human condition, this is complex. Note this as well, most historical cases of religious oppression and wars are usually due to the first two on the list, however, not all religions that fall within such a list are inherently violent nor do they need to be oppressive.

I put this here because I wanted to differentiate between certain religions and sects, not out of theology, but organization. To generalize on religion due to the acts of some specific religious organizations is bordering on bigotry. My religion, as an example, is simply too young and disorganized to even attempt any of the things that some would say they are guilty of simply for believing in a religion without using qualifiers. Quakers are another excellent example as to where this type of statement is an insult piled onto injury.

I'm not naive enough to say that my religion isn't capable of such things, that is true of any belief system, religious or political. Even though my faith forbids both proselytizing and unnecessary acts of violence, I do not think even it is immune to such acts as attributed to other religions over the years. I pray that 2000 years down the line that it can never be attributed to such acts as the Inquisition or Crusades of the past 2000 years.

This is not to say that Theists are immune to the same types of generalizations, but in a different context. A couple of phrases leap out, to me, in regards to this, especially when talking about Church/State Separation, and yes I found it here. One is "People of Faith", the other is "Believers". The problem is usually context in this case, when a Christian uses such phrases, they usually mean Christian exclusively, as if everyone who is not Christian lacks a faith entirely, instead of just not sharing theirs.

This brings up another point, the term "Believers" never made any sense to me in regards to specific religions. Why isn't "Worshipers" used? Like I said above, I'm a polytheist, so I believe Yahweh exists as a divine being, but at the same time I don't worship Him. Oghma and Brigit are my God and Goddess, I worship them instead, but I do believe other divine beings exists. Hell, I even leave the possibility that Jesus was divine open, but that doesn't make me a Christian now does it? Come to think of it, I never did understand the whole 3 Gods in One thing of Christians. :shrug:

Language matters in both of these cases I outlined above, and seem to lead to more vitriol and anger on both sides. The same could be said in attributing double meanings to someone's statements, or putting words into their mouths in many cases. It's usually best to take someone's word at face value, and attribute nothing more to the words than what is explicitly stated.

Another thing that I noticed is the tone of some statements. If you want to start a flame war, fine, but if you want constructive dialog between groups and yet use inflammatory remarks then expect to get flamed regardless. To give and example of what I'm talking about, look at my statement above 2 paragraphs back and now look at this statement of mine, same info, different tone.

I think Yahweh was and is simply a tribal God of the ancient Israelites, now worshiped by Christians, Jews, and Muslims worldwide. I read the Bible and wasn't so impressed, rather I was appalled by his behavior in that "Holy" book.

Now think about the tone in that excerpt, rather dismissive and insulting all at once now isn't it? The thing I wanted to stress more than anything else is this, don't think for a minute that you need to respect anyone for their beliefs, at most tolerate it, that's a given. We do have to live side by side in this country after all, and its best if we don't keep insulting each other in these debates. No, don't respect each other's beliefs, instead, respect each other as individuals in this society that can contribute constructively to it.

We are all human after all, prone to mistakes, and need to recognize that, criticize the actions of those we oppose, criticize the insults and hate of those around you. But, at the very least, respect that they are human beings too and can learn and grow from past mistakes.

I don't expect this forum to become a feel good love fest, though that would be nice, but we do need to recognize that, at least on this board, we are in the same chapter politically, if not on the same page. Unlike Republicans, who are in a whole different book entirely, its title is Dante's Inferno. :)

If I sound preachy in any way, I apologize, I just hope this board doesn't turn into a broken record all the time.

[Malva Zebrina]

1. From my point of view, there is nothing inflammatory about that quote

the poster is simply stating his opinion on his views of the bible or Christianity, or Judaism as he has determined.

Why expect he NOT say anything like that? As for believers, that is the proper term to use to describe persons who believe in gods. Some of those believers are not necessarily "worshippers" if you know what I mean.

There is nothing that requires that those who cannot believe in gods, are required to respect those gods currently in favor, and say so or censor their own beliefs out of some "respect" demanded by those who do believe in gods. To expect that is somewhat ethnocentric. To do so, would certainly be inconsistent and even immoral for those people who cannot believe in gods.

[Solon]

2. I wanted to say that!!!

As for believers, that is the proper term to use to describe persons who believe in gods. Some of those believers are not necessarily "worshippers" if you know what I mean.

I just narrowed that down a bit, I was referring, of course, to the Christian use of the word, which seems to be used interchangably with Worship. Also, as far as the respect, I wasn't referring to Gods, but to the beliefs people hold regarding Gods. I pretty much agree entirely with your post though, just trying to clear up some confusion.

Just one other thing, that excerpt is mine actually, and some Christians would take offense to it. Hell some still can't get around the fact that Muslims worship the same God as them.

[More Than A Feeling]

9. Question

some have said (forgive me, but I do not have direct links, so if this is not a common sentiment, I am mistaken) that they don't like it when evangelicals/fundamentalists tell them they are going to hell. Now, I am not attributing that opinion to you, but can you see the parallels between that and some of the more inflammatory comments that have been made about religion in general and/or christianity in particular? ( this particular one is pretty tame. but there have been much more charged sentiments expressed and I am interested in your opinion on this subject in general)

[trotsky]

3. Yeah, I kind of like the second quote too. ;-)

Speaking as an atheist, having to keep silent on my views with most of the general population or have people judge me as immoral, satanic, whatever, the chance to come in here and speak freely is therapeutic.

I've tried to get clarification on exactly what kind of distinction there is between criticism and "bashing," but no one can give me an answer. The closest was "it depends on the person reading it." Well, naturally. But where does that leave me?

A forum is what it is. This has become a place for flamewars and disagreement. So what? Believers have their "safe havens" to go back to, and so do we non-believers. What's wrong with wrasslin' in the mud from time to time?

[Stunster]

4. Ummm

What's wrong with wrasslin' in the mud from time to time?

You were unwilling to do so with me for long enough and today said "Goodbye" at one point, having previously put me on your ignore list.

That's what I like about atheists. They're fearless, consistent, and brilliant when it comes to logical argument, except for all the glaring mistakes they make and the times they run away.

[trotsky]

5. That's what I like about you, Stunster.

Always keeping your attacks personal.

[Solon]

14. Nothing wrong with wrestling in the mud from time to time...

If that is what you want to do. Blowing off steam is theraputic, and I understand the frustration, believe me in that. I was just talking about the tone of posts, not necessarily content. I guess the whole "offensive" language thing is kinda foriegn to me. Its easy to get offended at personal attacks, but I don't get why people get offended when someone insults their God. I don't think it bothers their God a bit, so why should it bother them as well?

BTW: Your sig line is exactly what I wanted to quote in my post, I wish I could edit it to paraphrase instead of quote. That's what I get for relying on my shoddy memory, damn.

ON EDIT: Dammit, I just realized I didn't say that I quoted any famous Atheist, but it is my source for the quote, so to speak, I have even worse memory than I thought. :)

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. Yay!

FINALLY someone on this forum who isn't a Chrisitan or an atheist. Being a polytheist, you might get a smile out of one of my husband's buttons he wears from time to time-"If your God is dead, try one of mine."

I came to the Religion/Theology board to find out about other people's belief systems, and your post was a breath of fresh air! I haven't checked out you link yet, but will after I post. Please tell me more about your God and Goddess! I'd love to hear about them from you!

I thought the rest of your post was thoughtful as well. I tend to get into the 'wars' you describe at times, mainly to try and give an Islamic perspective because there are so few Muslims who post here, espeically on this forum, but I am open and honor all faiths. Like you, I could see how the boxed quote could be deemed insulting to some. The problem is that we all come here toting our own unique perspective and personal history. It is often very hard to be understood because of this. But I wish more people would just talk about their faith and belief system so that we can learn more about it, and maybe, just maybe, be open enough to try and see the world from another person's point of view.

Looking forward to hearing more about Oghma and Brigit

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

7. Blessed be

we have done some dances honoring the Wiccan way at Dances of Universal Peace gatherings, and I have prayed with Wiccans at inipi ceremonies. I know a bit about it, as occultists and even a witch is in my family tree, but not about the Gods/Goddesses names. I think that it would be fascinating to explain some of the outline at Beliefnet in more detail, perhaps in another post.

[Solon]

13. Sorry about the length of time responding to your post...

but I decided it best to put it out there for all to see, been busy for the past couple of days. I will be honest in one thing, I'm strictly solitary, as most Wiccans are, by default because it is hard to find others in your area to meet up with. I know almost nothing of Coven dynamics or things of that sort, just my own experiences.

I tell you a little bit about Oghma and Brigit though, for one, I'm somewhat of an oddity in my choice of Gods, even according to most Wiccans. Many Wiccans worship Gods or Goddesses from the Celtic Pantheons that much is true, however, others have Gods and Goddesses from Greco-Roman, Kemetic(Egyptian) and other pantheons. I have even heard of some African American Wiccans(Yes they exist!) who focus on African Pantheons outside of Egypt. Its all mostly about personal preference, as to who in the divine best fits you, nothing more than that.

I'm the geeky/curious type, who likes to make things, and learn things as a hobby. Considering that Oghma is the God of Knowledge, and creator of the Ogam script to encode knowledge, he fits my personality pretty well I think. Brigit, among other traits is the Goddess of Smithcrafting, or as I jokingly call her, the Goddess of Tech support. :) I love these aspects of them both, being constructive in the world is a goal of mine, simple as that. Being Irish also helps, both are of Gaelic origins.

I will say that being a solitary does have its bonuses, I'm not that ritualistic, though I do perform them on the Wheel of the Year when possible especially Imbolc, Brigit's holiday. I mostly worship with my hands, or with my eyes on a book, if that makes sense. I take the abilities that I have and use them for the good of humanity, at least when able too(Was disabled for a year, ugh, that was bad, PT was painful). That is how I feel I can best serve my Chosen God and Goddess, keeping and honoring them in the time honored traditions of many craft people of the world. Even if it is mostly in computers, but also some art and carpentry as well. When I pray, its usually for patience to get the job done, whatever job it is.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

17. thank you for your reply

I'd heard of Brigit, but not Oghma, and knew nothing about either One. I also understand being solitary-I was apart from other mystics for years until, through a series of visions and dreams and what skeptics would call "coincidences" I found my spiritual path and my spiritual community. I count it as a blessing that I live near so many who are on a mystical path (and no, they aren't all Sufis). I honor your Way and the way you honor your God and Goddess.

Blessed be.

[Astarho]

8. Good post

BTW you sound like a henotheist, since you believe in other gods, but don't worship them. I lean toward henotheism myself so it's good to meet another like mind.

[Solon]

12. Yeah a Henotheist...

I would guess all Henotheists would be Polytheists, but not all Polytheists are Henotheists, does that make sense? I don't get too hung up on definitions, but I most likely fit into that category.

[toddaa]

10. One man's religion is another man's belly laugh

I can't remember if that's Mencken who said that or the SF writer Heinlein, but I've found it largely to be true.

I have a Catholic friend who describes his devout faith as a very elaborate joke that seems to be missing the punch line. That seems to me to be a perfect summation of all religious and irreligious belief.

Whatever gods, goddesses, or nongods you happen to believe in or doubt the existance of, just remember that they all probably possess a much better sense of humor than we do and find these pissing matches to be quite amusing.

[Solon]

11. That is so true...

I figure that the Gods don't really give a crap one way or another about who worships who. Just so long as we are happy and don't hurt each other purposefully, they wouldn't care too much beyond that, at least the nice ones that is. Loki I'm not too sure about though. :)

[Solomon]

15. This is funny. I was just thinking about starting a thread on whether

God needs our worship before I began reading through this thread.
I asked the question one time and the answer I got back was not really an answer so much as a response - "but you need God," is what I was told.

[Solon]

16. That sounds presumptious to me...

My answer would be, they don't need us, but I need them, call it a crutch if you will. I don't define it as a weakness for me, these are my needs, not yours. If you are happy with the beliefs you have, in humanity or divinity, as long as you are a good and happy person, that is all that you need. Its the height of arrogance to try to dictate to you that you need to worship any God, that's your decision, and only yours, who am I to judge, who am I to dictate your beliefs, or lack thereof?