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RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 12:06 PM
Original message
The last of the Fatima children died..debate question
Do you believe in prophecies, etc?
What about mystics and prophets?

Do you think the fatima vision really occured or was it just overactive childrens imagination?

Catholics Mourn Death of Child Visionary
By Peggy Polk

(UNDATED) Pope John Paul II and other Catholics mourned the death of the last of the shepherd children said to have received prophecies from the Virgin Mary at Fatima, Portugal, in 1917. Portuguese Prime Minister Pedro Santana Lopez declared a day of national mourning for Lucia de Jesus dos Santos, who died Sunday (Feb. 13) at the age of 97. Lucia and her two younger cousins became celebrated throughout the Catholic world for reporting that they had seen visions of the Virgin Mary in the Portuguese countryside starting on May 13, 1917, and that she had given them messages for humanity. The Shrine of Fatima built on the site of the visions is one of Catholicism's most visited sanctuaries. It attracted 3.75 million pilgrims from throughout the world last year.
www.religionnews.com/


and for those of you unfamiliar with the Fatima prophecies
http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa070300a.htm
The "miracle at Fatima" is arguably the most well-known apparition of the Blessed Mother. Her appearance to three shepherd children in Portugal in 1917 was, according to many witnesses, accompanied by several unexplained events, including a shared vision of the sun dancing and moving about erratically in the sky.

During her many appearances to the children, "Our Lady" bestowed upon them three prophecies. The first two were disclosed by Lucia dos Santos, the eldest of the three children, after she wrote them down in the early 1940s, but the third and final prophecy was not to be revealed until 1960. Well, 1960 came and went, and the third prophecy was not revealed because the Vatican said the world was not quite ready for it. This reluctance to disclose the secret lead to speculation among the faithful that it contained information about our future that was so horrific that the Pope dared not reveal it. Perhaps it foretold a nuclear war... or the end of the world.

In the first prophecy, the children were shown a terrifying vision of Hell and were told that's "where the souls of poor sinners go." Then they were told that the world war then taking place - what we now call World War I - would soon end. "The war is going to end," Lucia quoted the Blessed Mother as saying, "but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the reign of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given to you by God that He is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father."......

The Second Prophecy

"When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to My Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturdays . If My requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred, the Holy Father will have much to suffer, various nations will be annihilated."

Many believers assert that this prophecy foresees the spreading of Communism by Russia, which had become the Soviet Union. Wars were, of course, fought to halt the spread of Communism. Then in 1984, Pope John Paul II consecrated the Soviet Union. Subsequently, in 1991, the Soviet Union disintegrated into 15 separate countries, but it can hardly be said that Russia has undergone a religious conversion. Has there been peace as predicted? While there haven't been any worldwide wars, there have been many minor ones (if any war can be considered minor) and the world still is not a peaceful place........

(3rd prophecy)
On May 13, 2000 (the anniversary of the assassination attempt on him), the Pope visited the shrine at Fatima and made a surprise announcement that the secret would finally be revealed. The Vatican then told the world that the secret was a foretelling of the 1981 assassination attempt on Pope John Paul II. The referred-to passage states: "...the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him..."





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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think one of the big differences
between believers and non-believers is this:

the believer reads the third prophecy and thinks it describes the shooting of the Pope in St. Peter's Square in 1981.

The non-believer just shakes his head and goes :wtf:

It's a very precise prediction. There are no ruins in St. Peters, the pope wasn't half-trembling with halting step in '81. He wasn't climbing a mountin, and no soldiers shot at him. But the believer picks out "Pope" and "shoot" and thinks it fulfills the prophecy. I just don't see it.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's the problem with prophecy
The "prophets" make it all so general that it could apply to nearly anything down the road. Honestly, who's gonna use bows and arrows these days? Aha! you say, that's where interpretation comes in.

Well, I say rubbish. Any prophecy that requires such intense interpretation to ignore a city that isn't in ruins and a pope who isn't shaking yet, plus bows and arrows in a world of tanks, guns, bombs and artillery has got to be a fake.

Funny that all apparitions seemed to stop when film came into general usage.
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Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Prophecy and interpretation of prophecy
Not all believers think that the official interpretation of the 3rd secret of Fatima is correct. It appears that the secret is expressed in a highly symbolic way, and that leaves room for a variety of interpretations. The official interpretation given by the Vatican is just that---an interpretation.

Another interpretation I've seen is that it concerns not this pope, but his predecessor, Pope John Paul I, who died after barely a month in office. Some allege that he was in fact murdered by poison. If that's so, then there might be a motive for the Vatican to interpret the 3rd secret differently from how it was really meant.

However, it is a fact that the pope was shot on the Feast of Our Lady of Fatima.
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Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. The 'miracle of the sun' at Fatima
was seen by believers and non-believers alike. It was reported in the secular, anticlerical press.

The solar phenomenon was seen not just at the site of the apparitions, but over an area of 600 square miles.

Rationality dictates that one should allow evidence to shape one's worldview, rather than ensure that your worldview determines what gets to count as evidence. The latter would be irrational, illogical, and closed-minded. So I approach the evidence concerning Fatima with an open mind.

It seems to me that there is simply no question but that thousands of people experienced something very dramatic at Fatima--the evidence compels that conclusion. What is not compelled is what caused people to have that experience. But it is obviously striking that the children predicted a miraculous phenomenon which was then witnessed at the predicted time by, among others, members of the secular press, government soldiers, engineers and doctors, as well as many ordinary, honest folk. Their testimony should be approached with an open mind. But if it challenges your worldview, it is not rational to dismiss it simply for that reason. In general, it is irrational to cling to a worldview in the face of evidence that tends to render it untenable. I don't claim that the Fatima evidence is absolutely conclusive proof of the existence of the supernatural. But I think the hypothesis of supernatural existence is the one that best explains it. A small sampling of the total evidence follows.

Here are a couple of contemporary Portuguese newspaper accounts:

O Seculo (a pro-government, secularist, anti-clerical Lisbon daily):


From the road, where the vehicles were parked and where hundreds of people who had not dared to brave the mud were congregated, one could see the immense multitude turn toward the sun, which appeared free from clouds and in its zenith. It looked like a plaque of dull silver, and it was possible to look at it without the least discomfort. It might have been an eclipse which was taking place. But at that moment a great shout went up, and one could hear the spectators nearest at hand shouting: "A miracle! A miracle!

Before the astonished eyes of the crowd, whose aspect was biblical as they stood bareheaded, eagerly searching the sky, the sun trembled, made sudden incredible movements outside all cosmic laws---the sun "danced" according to the typical expression of the people.

Standing at the step of an omnibus was an old man. With his face turned to the sun, he recited the Credo in a loud voice. I asked who he was and was told Senhor Joao da Cunha Vasconcelos. I saw him afterwards going up to those around him who still had their hats on, and vehemently imploring them to uncover before such an extraordinary demonstration of the existence of God.

Identical scenes were repeated elsewhere, and in one place a woman cried out: "How terrible! There are even men who do not uncover before such a stupendous miracle!"

People then began to ask each other what they had seen. The great majority admitted to having seen the trembling and the dancing of the sun; others affirmed that they saw the face of the Blessed Virgin; others, again, swore that the sun whirled on itself like a giant Catherine wheel and that it lowered itself to the earth as if to burn it in its rays. Some said they saw it change colors successively....


Attacked violently by all the rest of the anticlerical press (Portugal had an anticlerical government at the time), the author of this piece, Avelino de Almeida, renewed his testimony, fifteen days later, in his review, Ilustração Portuguesa. This time he illustrated his account with a dozen photographs of the huge ecstatic crowd, and repeated as a refrain throughout his article: "I saw ... I saw ... I saw." And he concluded fortuitously: "Miracle, as the people shouted? Natural phenomenon, as the experts say? For the moment, that does not concern me, I am only saying what I saw... The rest is a matter for Science and the Church."

O Dia (another Lisbon daily, edition of 17 October 1917):

"At one o'clock in the afternoon, midday by the sun, the rain stopped. The sky, pearly grey in colour, illuminated the vast arid landscape with a strange light. The sun had a transparent gauzy veil so that the eyes could easily be fixed upon it. The grey mother-of-pearl tone turned into a sheet of silver which broke up as the clouds were torn apart and the silver sun, enveloped in the same gauzy grey light, was seen to whirl and turn in the circle of broken clouds. A cry went up from every mouth and people fell on their knees on the muddy ground....

The light turned a beautiful blue, as if it had come through the stained-glass windows of a cathedral, and spread itself over the people who knelt with outstretched hands. The blue faded slowly, and then the light seemed to pass through yellow glass. Yellow stains fell against white handkerchiefs, against the dark skirts of the women. They were repeated on the trees, on the stones and on the serra. People wept and prayed with uncovered heads, in the presence of a miracle they had awaited. The seconds seemed like hours, so vivid were they.


Dr. Almeida Garrett:

"It must have been 1:30 p.m. when there arose at the
exact spot where the children were, a column of smoke, thin, fine and
bluish, which extended up to perhaps two meters above their heads, and
evaporated at that height. This phenomenon, perfectly visible to the
naked eye, lasted for a few seconds. Not having noted how long it had
lasted, I cannot say whether it was more or less than a minute. The
smoke dissipated abruptly, and after some time, it came back to occur
a second time, then a third time ...."


"Suddenly I heard the uproar of thousands of voices,
and I saw the whole multitude spread out in that vast space at my feet
... turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their
expectations focused, and look at the sun on the other side ... I
turned around, too, toward the point commanding their gazes, and I
could see the sun, like a very clear disc, with its sharp edge, which
gleamed without hurting the sight ... It could not be confused with
the sun seen through a fog (there was no fog at that moment), for it
was neither veiled, nor dim. At Fatima, it kept its light and heat,
and stood out clearly in the sky, with a sharp edge, like a large
gaming table. The most astonishing thing was to be able to stare at
the solar disc for a long time, brilliant with light and heat, without
hurting the eyes, or damaging the retina."
(Dr. Almeida Garrett)

More testimony:

And likewise: "The people could look at the sun as we look at the moon." (Maria do Carmo)

"It shook and trembled; it seemed like a wheel of fire." (Maria da Capelinha)

"The sun turned like a fire wheel, taking on all the colors of the rainbow." (Maria do Carmo)

"It appeared like a globe of snow turning on itself."
(Father Lourenço)

"The pearl-like disc had a giddy motion. This was not the twinkling of a star in all its brilliance. It turned on itself with impetuous speed." (Dr. Almeida Garrett)

"At a certain moment, the sun stopped and then began again to dance, to spin; it stopped again, and began again to dance." (Ti Marto)

"The sun took on all the colors of the rainbow. Everything assumed those same colors: our faces, our clothes, the earth itself." (Maria do Carmo)

"A light, whose colors changed from one moment to the next, was reflected on the people and on things." (Dr. Pereira Gens)

"We suddenly heard a clamor, like a cry of anguish of that entire crowd. The sun, in fact, keeping its rapid movement of rotation, seemed to free itself from the firmament and blood-red, to plunge towards the earth, threatening to crush us with its fiery mass. Those were some terrifying seconds." (Dr. Almeida Garrett)

"I saw the sun turn and it seemed to descend. It was like a bicycle wheel." (John Carreira)

"The sun began to dance and, at a certain moment, it appeared to detach itself from the firmament and to rush forward on us, like a fire wheel." (Alfredo da Silva Santos)

"I saw it perfectly descending as if it came to crash on the earth. It seemed to detach itself from the sky and rush toward us. It maintained itself at a short distance above our heads; but that sort of attack was of very short duration... It seemed very near the people and it continued to turn in the opposite direction." (Maria do Carmo)

"Suddenly, the sun appeared with its circumference well-defined. It came down as if to the height of the clouds and began to whirl giddily upon itself like a captive ball of fire. With some interruptions, this lasted about eight minutes." (Father Pereira da Silva)

"It suddenly seemed to come down in a zig-zag, menacing the earth." (Father Lourenço)

"Seeing the sun falling on us ..." (Father John Gomes)

"Finally, the sun stopped and everybody breathed a sigh of relief ..." (Maria da Capelinha)

"From those thousands of mouths I heard shouts of joy and love to the Most Holy Virgin. And then I believed. I had the certainty of not having been the victim of a suggestion. I had seen the sun as I would never see it again." (Mario Godinho, an engineer)

Another astonishing fact: all those people, who were for the
most part soaked to the bone, verified with joy and amazement that
they were dry. The fact is attested to in the canonical process for
Jacinta and Francisco, who were ultimately beatified on May 13, 2000.

"The moment one would least expect it, our clothes were totally dry." (Maria do Carmo)

"My suit dried in an instant." (John Carreira)

The academician Marques da Cruz testified as follows:

"This enormous multitude was drenched, for it had rained unceasingly since dawn. But—though this may appear incredible—after the great miracle everyone felt comfortable, and found his garments quite dry, a subject of general wonder ... The truth of this fact has been guaranteed with the greatest sincerity by dozens and dozens of persons of absolute trustworthiness, whom I have known intimately from childhood, and who are still alive (1937), as well as by persons from various districts of the country who were present."

And finally, there were also moral miracles of the conversions of many people. In his book, Meet the Witnesses, John Haffert writes:

"The captain of the regiment of soldiers on the mountain that day—with orders to prevent the gathering of the crowd—was converted instantly. Apparently so were hundreds of other unbelievers...."

"There was an unbeliever there who had spent the morning mocking the `simpletons' who had gone off to Fatima just to see an ordinary girl. He now seemed paralyzed, his eyes fixed on the sun. He began to tremble from head to foot, and lifting up his arms, fell on his knees in the mud, crying out to God." (Father Lourenço)

"I live eighteen miles from Fatima. And in May of 1917 we were told about the extraordinary apparitions, but the news came to us mixed up with the fantasy of the people. Naturally I did not believe. I sincerely supposed it was only (the) imagination of someone. ... At my mother's request, I went once more to Cova da Iria in August at the time of the apparitions. Once more I came back discouraged and disappointed. But that time, something extraordinary happened. My mother, who had had a large tumor in one of her eyes for many years, was cured. The doctors who had attended her said they could not explain such a cure. Still I did not believe in the apparitions. Finally, and again at my mother's request, I went to the Cova da Iria once more on the thirteenth of October. ... In spite of what had happened to my mother, I was disappointed and did not believe in the apparitions. So I sat inside my car. Then all at once I noticed that everybody looked at the sky. Natural curiosity attracted my attention, and I got out of the car and looked at the sky, too. ... From those hundreds of mouths I heard words of belief and of love to the Blessed Virgin. And then I believed." (Mario Godinho, an engineer)

A number of other cases of cures and conversions are documented in, among other places, the following books: Documentação Crítica de
Fátima, and Fatima from the Beginning.

To those who would say the miracle was a product of "mass hysteria" at the scene, God arranged a ready rebuttal: the phenomenon could be admired from beyond Fatima. Perfectly credible witnesses, who were very far from the Cova da Iria, related having seen the unprecedented spectacle of the dance of the sun, exactly like the 70,000 pilgrims gathered around the holm-oak where the Virgin had appeared.

In the small village of Alburitel, situated about ten miles from Fatima, the whole town was able to enjoy the vision of the solar prodigy. The testimony frequently quoted is that of Father Inacio Lourenço, because it is the most detailed. But what he relates having seen, all the villagers, questioned by the investigators, confirmed seeing it exactly the same way.

The witnesses of the event were indeed innumerable, their testimonies agree and we are flooded with the documents they have left us. Among the many reference works, see: Frère Michel de la Sainte Trinité, The Whole Truth About Fatima — Volume I: Science and the Facts; John M. Haffert, Meet the Witnesses; Father John de Marchi, I.M.C., Fatima From the Beginning, pp. 135-142.

Numerous accounts appeared at once in the Portuguese press. It is noteworthy that the first to provide testimony were the anticlerical reporters. The three articles of Avelino de Almeida—the one of October 13, immediately before the event; the other of October 15, edited at Vila Nova de Ourem on the evening of the 13th; and a third article of October 29—merit a special mention. In spite of the jeering tone and Voltarian irony which inspire in part the first article, in spite of the expected anticlerical tones which still appear in the article of the 15th, these texts from a talented reporter, one who besides, is honest and conscientious, are historical documents of prime importance. But he was not the only one to relate the facts, for other reporters were present at the Cova da Iria.
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Colorado Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Phenomena occur which we can't explain - some are well
documented as this one apparently is.

However, whether or not they serve as prophecies depends a lot on one's religious orientation.

For example this one is apparently some sort of Christian prophecy? What about people who aren't Christians? We do not believe in the dogma let alone the prophecy. So the issue to me is not whether the event occurred but what it means, if anything.

I'm concerned because we seem to have a lot of Christians who fervently believe in the Apochrypha including Rapture Freaks who seem to WANT the world to end. When one of them is rumored to be the President and has nuclear weapons this makes me worry about the SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY.

Speaking for at least one skeptic who loves this planet and loves life and loves animals and plants and people - HEY - WAIT A SECOND.

We would appreciate it if folks would stop prophesizing about our DOOM:)

Even for devout Christians - let me suggest that The Almighty should be allowed to work in (her) own time and through her own means. I fear that people in their vanity are using "signs" to force the issue and this makes me VERY NERVOUS.

Peace!

PS, maybe it was Vulcans:)

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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. well
clearly, any phenomenon that occurred at Fatima was a phenomenon of perception, not of external reality. Or do you claim that the sun itself actually shook and moved that day? If that were true, it would've been observed over half the world. Instead, it was only observed locally.

Now... we have a few hundred people staring at the sun. Some, perhaps many, suffered retinal damage, or the movement of their eyes trying to AVOID damage caused a perception that the sun was "shaking" or moving. We also know that people can be easily convinced to believe something that didn't happen. Peer pressure can be a great force. We even have a children's tale about it: The Emperor's New Clothes. People will often believe what everybody around them believes.

Perhaps many people, WANTING to see a miracle, internalized the tales told by others (the sun-starers), so they can say they, too, witnessed the miracle. Hell, the number of people who claim to have been at Woodstock is far greater than the actual number of attendees. People DO lie, either knowingly or unknowingly, about what they've experienced. If the reward is a closer relationship with the Virgin Mary - perhaps extending to an increased chance of salvation, I wouldn't be surprised that people who did not actually see the miracle believe that they did.
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Stunster Donating Member (984 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Experience and explanations of experience
any phenomenon that occurred at Fatima was a phenomenon of perception, not of external reality

Agreed.

Or do you claim that the sun itself actually shook and moved that day?

No, of course not. I said that what is practically indisputable is that many people had an experience, and that the phenomenological nature of the experience concerned the sun (as well as other things like colors, etc).

Now... we have a few hundred people staring at the sun. Some, perhaps many, suffered retinal damage, or the movement of their eyes trying to AVOID damage caused a perception that the sun was "shaking" or moving.

The evidence does not bear that interpretation. Nobody's eyes were damaged. Indeed, the most common feature of the experience was that they could look directly at the sun without any discomfort.

We also know that people can be easily convinced to believe something that didn't happen.
How easy is it to convince 70,000 people that the sun is spinning and making violent movements---and make other people who were miles away experience the same thing?

What I'm saying is that a fair and open-minded reading of the evidence is that many people had an experience which they truthfully related.

The next question is what caused them to have the experience. One can put forward various hypotheses. The supernatural one makes perfect sense of the experience. The naturalistic ones are terribly strained, and simply don't account for all the phenomena experienced---e.g. the instantaneous drying of rainsoaked clothes, the remarkable color phenomena, etc.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Of course, if it was a UFO, meaning an extra-terrestrial vehicle,
the 'shaking of the sun' could have been the visual perception of the sun seen through the UFO's anti-grav field.

Like you said, a phenomenon of perception.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Sounds like classic UFO sightings to me. n/t
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
10. "Punish the world"
WTF? That has always confused me.

If God is pissed off, why does he have to punish everyone?

He's God, right? So why doesn't he pop down and tell each *person* who's doing the wrong thing, "Hey, bub, it's me, God. What you're doing is wrong and it's really making me angry. So knock it off before I smite thee."

Why does he act to punish everyone, and then cause even MORE confusion because no two believers can agree on EXACTLY why the "punishment" was deserved?
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
11. There have been many prophets and many
who have had mystical experiences. In my experience, these prophesies and experiences are specific to a particular group or to a particular individual-the idea being that to make the revelations understandable and meaningful, they must be made in a context familiar to the person. That being said, phenomenae like the sun in Portugal can and do occur.
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Dcitizen Donating Member (212 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-17-05 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
12. Fatima prophecy is approved by Roman Church.
Edited on Thu Feb-17-05 01:16 AM by Dcitizen
The church has very strict jurisdiction of alleged cases of miracles, apparitions, locutions, and so on, and holds a microscope investigation before approving any thing as celestine message. The 3rd Fatima prophecy is just the repeated answer to some previous prophecies by Saint Hildegard in 12th century, saint Malachy in 13th century, and other seers.

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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-05 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Not in the L.A. archdiocese, they aren't...
Edited on Sat Feb-19-05 12:23 AM by onager
Many years ago, I did some free-lance writing for The Book Of Predictions. This was one of the Wallechinsky Family projects, like The People's Almanac, and I've written for several of these.

I'm a lapsed Southern Baptist and current atheist, so naturally they assigned me to write about the Visions Of Fatima and the Papal Predictions of St. Malachy. ;)

It occurred to me that I should probably check the Official Corporate Position on this stuff, so I called the Archdiocese of Los Angeles.

Basically, they stonewalled me like Ken Mehlman trying to explain Jeff Gannon-Suckert. I got shuttled to umpteen different offices, and everybody put me on hold till they could palm me off on somebody else.

I finally got a priest who would speak for the record.

As I remember all these years later, what he said was: "The Church does not believe in individual revelations, such as the alleged papal visions of St. Malachy. The Church believes that any revelations will be given to the body of the church as a whole."
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Dcitizen Donating Member (212 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-21-05 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. True prophecy is God's gift.
I found in that book the remarkable facts about Catholics' prediction on former Soviet; etc.

I understand that if any priest speaks against the church, they maybe suspended and no other churches will dare to admit them to perform the mass services.

Prophecy is God's gift in religions. I cant deny these saints and seers delivered the related messages over and over since 12th century, but I can pray for that not happen.

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