Message to Dissenters and Defeatist

[Stand and Fight]

Remember, "We the People"?

This message has to do with those who would proclaim that we should simply lie down, accept the false results of this election, and go silently into the night. I think they are missing the point of what people are passionate about in regards to the election results. They are missing why some are so stridently opposed to simply accepting things as they have come out because they smell a rat. It is not necessarily about overturning an election -- it goes much deeper than that. So, let's get to the heart of the matter.

What are we if we allow this to transpire just because the odds are against us? There is such a thing as precedent, and I know we need to FIGHT LIKE HELL against the Bush regime. It does not matter that he has the dammed House and Senate and Supreme Court and Media. The connotations of power that come with the phrase, "We the People" outweigh all dribble about Bush having the odds in his favor. Never forget this -- that bastard, that insidious fool, works for us, and I don't know about the rest of you, but I refuse to sit idly by and watch my country stolen out from under me. Can't you see that this is not about simply overturning an election? We are fighting for the very SOUL of our country. These nefarious ghouls must be stopped at any and all costs, and no matter what there numbers may be, we must remember that WE THE PEOPLE have far greater numbers. And there is strength in numbers -- they cannot summon enough jack boots to put down the furious rage of a people fighting for truth. We must march. We must trumpet the truth, speak the truth, and throw it in the face of the corporate media, the right wing fools, and this corrupt visceral Bush administration. WE MUST NOT SURRENDER IN PROTECTING OUR DEMOCRACY! A defeatist attitude accomplishes nothing. To quote the movie "Highlander," "I have something to say. It's better to burn out than to fade away!!"

[bones_7672]

1. The problem is ...

That WE THE PEOPLE voted more for * than for Kerry.

[Stand and Fight]

2. No, the probelm is...

that it is debated whom was rightfully elected by a majority in certain states.

[Chimpanzee]

3. And where is your evidence?

[MarkusQ]

4. Purportedly.

Purportedly, at least if you accept that the media are unbiased, politicians are always honest, machines can't lie, and the cloak of secrecy never hides ill deeds.

You should, I trust, have no objection to my attempting to collect evidence that will (if you are correct) support your premise?

--MarkusQ

[Farmgirl]

101. exactly...MarkusQ

And I think that is what Kerry, BBV and everyone else working on this voting debacle is doing. They need time, perhaps more time than a lot of people want to give them, to present an irrefutable case. They aren't going to weigh in with no weight. They can't arrive at high noon with no bullets in the gun. Nixon's removal didn't happen till months after the initial crime was committed. Lets let everybody get their ducks in a row, then everybody fire at once and overwhelm this criminal administration and the biased MSM.



:kick:

[pointsoflight]

8. If that's true, no one should be afraid of nationwide audits.

If their candidates won fair and square, why would they oppose audits? If their candidates won fair and square, audits would serve to qualm any doubts that people have about whether the election was fair, and would give complete legitimacy to their victories.

Yet, the republicans are doing everything they can to stop them, try to run out the clock, etc. Doesn't that tell you something?

[electropop]

77. Exactly!

For Repukes the only thing worse than having the election called into question, would be having all their tricks actually found out. They are providing the strongest evidence of all that they are guilty: a massive, concerted coverup.

[lthuedk]

11. You-do-not-truly-know-that.

Bush may have lost, not by a little, but by a landslide.

If the exit polls were right-and its beginning to look like they were-the Chimp's re-election is dust.

So, why don't you put away your knee pads and stand up like a grown up and be patient.

[hippiegranny]

46. prove it.

and we'll all just stfu.

[onecitizen]

57. You miss the point..........

while we would all (I hope "we all")would love that Kerry won, this is much bigger than Kerry, election 2004, and us. It is about preserving democracy. If you cannot trust elections then you cannot trust democracy. At least THIS democracy. And if we can stop this maniac from having another 4 years to screw us all, we have to TRY. We,the collective we, may not survive 4 more years of this. The PLANET may not survive 4 more of this adolescent bully.

[GingerSnaps]

58. NO WE DIDN'T

Diebold did!

[Joe Chi Minh]

59. No, the problem

is that the "let's move on" types are almost all, if not absolutely all of them trolls.

[electropop]

74. wrong

Any reasonable look at the election shows that at best there were massive irregularities, particularly in FL and OH, but really everywhere. The evidence increases every day that America has just been the victim of the biggest crime in our history, committed by the chimp and his cronies, such as bones_7672.

[TexasLawyer]

5. A Poem for the Repubs

forgive me if you've already seen this one:

The election is over, the results are now known.
The will of the people PERHAPS has been shown.
We should show by our thoughts and our words and our deeds
That unity is just what our country now needs.
Let's all get together and let bitterness pass.
I'll hug your Elephant. You KISS MY ASS.

[Stand and Fight]

6. Fantastic

Great poem!! I wasn't sure I'd care for it till I got to the end. We cannot begin to extend olive branches until the irregularities surrounding this election are fully investigating and resolved for the majority of those who are crying foul now. And I am proudly one of those voices against this heinous election!

[Truman01]

7. I agree, we fight

But do you think we won the popular vote in this election? I mean if we took out all the fraud and corruption that no doubt occurred surely there weren't 3.5 million votes that were fraudulant.

I can see, with the electoral college how we may have WON the election if we can prove fraud in OHIO (though it aint looking good), but do you really think that WE THE PEOPLE in a populist sense is on our side?

[Stand and Fight]

9. You have a point

However, the way I see it is that we may not have won the popular vote, but I do feel that with the reports coming out of Ohio we did win the electoral vote. There are literally hundreds of reported cases having to do with voter disenfranchisement, intimidation, and polling books not being properly filled out. Not to mention the noted statistics anomalies that have been thoroughly researched. I would say that there is a possibility that Bush won the popular vote, but I feel that there was sweeping fraud across the United States that allowed his numbers to far exceed themselves. By our Constitution it is the electoral votes that count, and I, for one, ardently know in my heart and soul that John Kerry won. Just look at the exit poll discrepancies for one thing -- when have they ever been wrong in almost every single dammed battleground states. The excuses that the political pundits are coming up with just don't stand up under scrutiny.

[Eloriel]

33. No, there's a pretty good indication (IMO) that we won the popular

vote too -- they shaved and shaved and shaved wherever they could, across the country AND they launched the most massive vote suppression campaign in the history of the world.

I really don't think people can read through all this without getting a sense that something is TERRIBLY wrong, and we likely won popular and electoral vote-wise:

VOTE FRAUD LINKS - A DU Compendium - Thread #3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x4927

VOTE FRAUD Links Compendium - Thread #2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x3223

VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#

[googly]

37. I know you may be right but do you have evidence which will

stand up in a court of law? I don't think saying "that something is TERRIBLY wrong, and we likely won popular and electoral vote-wise:"
is likely to stand-up in courts. But anyhow, I wish you luck.

[electropop]

79. hundreds of voting problems?

"There are literally hundreds of reported cases having to do with voter disenfranchisement, intimidation, and polling books not being properly filled out."

Wrong. There are literally tens of thousands of cases.

The US Government has received 57,000 complaints of specific irregularities (so far). That's why the Government Accountability Office (GAO) has decided to investigate.

[IAMREALITY]

13. Absolutely. n/t

[Kralizec]

15. I personally think that Bush only got 40%-45% of the popular vot

e. First, NO, I don't have evidence, hehe. But I am a computer science major and I've looked into these machines for quite a while now. I must admit, I think that wherever there were machines, there were extra votes for Bush. Now I've done a rough estimate in my head, and it wouldn't be hard at all to get millions of extra votes without looking too obvious. The fact that Bushy lost the pop. vote last time, I can see why they would pull the strings like that to ensure that didn't happen again.

Last time it was an unforeseen error. They learned and handled it this time.

[Stand and Fight]

17. Right!

Distributed evenly across the US it would not be that hard to come up with an extra 3.3 million votes. Let's also not forget the report or polling sign in books being tampered with in Ohio. That alone is suspect, because for all we know they could have had the God dammed cattle or dead voting.

[Truman01]

23. AHHHH I hate to argue with you guys. . . .

I want you to be right, but your "feeling in your heart and soul" and your "rough estimates in your head" are hardly proof of anything.

IF Bushco can pull off a fraud of such proportions as you are alleging then WE HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO HOPE. If they are that deep into the fraud then elections have lost their meaning.

I know where this comes from. WE want so desperately to believe that we don't have to deal with shrub for another 4 years, but it looks like we are going to anyway.

I think it is easier for us to sit around and blame the Black Box Voting (don't you sue me Bev) than it is to just admit that we need a more unified message that speaks to people. We are trying to be everything to everybody. I like Dean. You might not like what he said all the time but you knew what you were getting. He was consistent. He wasn't for the war and then against the war. He is/was and outsider, and that was that.

I think a clear concise message, being unabashedly liberal will bring us to victory in the polls. I know it is heresy to say it, but Dean and Jackson had no ulterior motives when they said on CNN Shrub won fair and square. That is the first thing we have to come to grips with before we can fix it.

We can fix it. We just have to live with the puke of reality until we do.

:puke:

[Stand and Fight]

25. Read around

I suggest you read around the site before posting your conjecture. You've every right to your opinion, but you at least need to have belonged to the site long enough to have read about the testimonies in Ohio, the irregularities, and a mountain of other information. I've been following this site outside of registration since May of this year, and I am thoroughly convinced that this election was stolen.

[Truman01]

28. That's pretty arrogant. . . .

I've been sick for three days and have done LITTLE else but "read around." I have read DU for approximately 15 hours over the past three days and I haven't seen ANYTHING that even begins to be convincing.

Now you may not like my opinon, and who knows someone may censor my opinion, but the real conjecture and speculation, that boarders on wishfull thinking here is that this election was definitely stolen and that we can get it back. THAT IS CONJECTURE.

I am simply trying to be a voice of reason and say that we can WIN it back if we are willing to deal with reality and figure out why we are not connecting with the voters.

Don't try to slam me just because you have more posts.

[IAMREALITY]

29. Have A Looksie

I posted this a few days ago but feel it necessary to print again for all those %$#@!??@#@ that are too brickheaded to understand the concept of 'Proof' within our investigation...

A question to all the naysayers:

If you are walkin down the street and I am atop a building, and decide to take a big steamy load of dogshit and whop it on your Fucking Head, Would You need to first know Who I am, Where I was, What My Background Is, Where I got the Shit from, Etc.. Before you wanted an investigation into why someone threw shit on your head? Would you need all that before you even could be sure you in fact did have a load of dogshit on your head? Of course not, you could smell the stench. You might not know where it came from, from who or why, but you still have no doubt someone just shit on your head.

Well that is the boat we are in. We all smell the shit and it stinks. We have all had a pile of shit thrown on our heads. That's enough to move forward with. We will find out the rest of the details as we go......

[Truman01]

31. I appreciate the funny story, however. . . .

As an attorney, I have a pretty good handle on the idea of PROOF. Further the idea of EVIDENCE could be introduced here. I don't mind Bev and company looking intently into anything that may help, but I do mind a great deal when all I hear is that "I know in my gut that Kerry won," and this (excuse me for being blasphemous) "the exit polls which are never wrong" are more indicative than the ACTUAL COUNT.

We have a great deal of anecdotal stories about suppression. We have some computer glitches. We have boogeyman stories about machines that change all the votes to Bush. But so far, if EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY vote we have in dispute went our way we still aren't even close to winning this election.

The very reason that conspiracy theories don't use evidence but feeling is because they can't be controverted if there is no evidence. With evidence comes PROOF or disProof. So far I see little evidence of anything except wishful thinking.

AND I'm not alone! Jessie Jackson and Howard Dean have BOTH taken PUBLIC STANDS to say that BUSH WON fair and square. Believe you me it pains them to have to hear the echo of their own voice concerning that sick fact, but the fact is that they have said it. But of course the conspiracists among us have even spun that story. "Maybe they are just setting up the repugs so they will let down their guard." I actually read that on this board.

I have a NEWS FLASH for everyone: Maybe they said it because, WE LOST. I know its an unpopular idea, and one I'll get flamed for, but maybe we LOST.

Please, feel free to tell me I'm wrong, and believe me I HOPE YOU ARE RIGHT. But spare me the BS about PROOF and Evidence, if this is all we have. 2000 was a different story. We only lacked, at most 1200 votes. I was there, I fought in the trenches, so don't act like I'm not a Soldier in this cause. This time the number is over 120,000 at best. WE LOST. I'm sorry, but we did.

:puke:

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Truman01]

42. I'm sorry you feel that way

Why don't you go make a donation to the board, I did.

[liberal al zib]

47. Take it easy Kellis.

[Truman01]

48. I sent this by mail also, Apology

Kellis,

I have been quite depressed with this election. One of the reasons I came to DU is to be with like minded people. Because of my legal experience I tend to be pessimistic about our ability to challenge this case in court. 2000 was a different story, we had it.

I suppose I shouldn't be so pessimistic until at least the inaguration. I am really trying to look forward. I know our party can win, we just have to have the right candidate, and not write off the entire south as uneducated hicks.

If I offended you I'm sorry. I did this in private but I'm going to post is also.

TC

[pointsoflight]

34. Forget the winning vs. losing issue.

The fact of the matter is that there were many voting anomalies in this year's election. Maybe some were due to tampering, maybe not. But even if you don't believe there was widespread tampering, it's just a matter of time given our current electoral process. The machines that are *gaining* in their use are fraught with problems and are pathetically insecure such that a *chimpanzee* was successfully taught how to hack the vote; the latest technologies do not allow any sort of verification of the vote so as to ensure accuracy and legitimacy; the companies that own these machines have very shady backgrounds; and these same companies directly support the republican party. There is very clearly the means and motivation to tamper here. Do you think all people and all companies are suddenly honest and therefore are unwilling to tamper, even though we get daily reports of politicians and businessman that break laws, commit fraud, etc.? If it hasn't already happened, it will happen unless there's radical change in the way we run elections.

Now how can we enact the changes that are needed? Well, republicans keep blocking any consideration of electoral reform. The best way to enact change, in my opinion, is to expose the problems, glitches, disenfranchisement, tampering or whatever else occurred in this election. So even if you don't think there's any possible way that Kerry will win, this issue is still extremely important, and the efforts of those who are trying to uncover the various problems are very worthwhile efforts.

[Pooka Fey]

55. Why don't you do us all a favor and keep your mouth shut

since you don't have anything productive to say, Mr. "AS AN ATTORNEY". What will you lose by laying off the negative posts??? Well, maybe that delicious sense of superiority that you're enjoying by enlightening all of us idiot "tin foil hatters".

Is there some of pressing window of time where you practice law??? Like if you can't "prove your case" within 3 weeks, it is automatically devoid of any merit???
----------------------------------------------------------
Quoting Mr. "As An Attorney" D.A.:
"Oh SORRY, Mr. New York City Police Detective!!! You couldn't gather enough evidence to catch the so-called "Son of Sam" within 3 weeks, so I'm calling off THE INVESTIGATION."

Quoting Mr. "N.Y.C. Police Detective":
"Uhhh, sir, we have a lot of bloody corpses laying around. I really have a feeling in my gut that we have a serial killer, and we're close to finding him."

Quoting Mr. "As An Attorney" D.A.:
"Just because you have a feeling in your gut that there's a serial killer doesn't prove jack-squat!! All those women could have just slipped on a melted ice cream cone, then got stuck in gum, and then died in the summer heat, and the blood is because they all got their period. Later someone came and shot the already dead bodies for fun. What makes you think it didn't happen THAT way???"
------------------------------------------------------------
Statisticians, professors, researchers, computer people, election workers, voting rights activists, yes, even lawyers, political candidates, etc. are BUSY PEOPLE. Do you really believe all these otherwise extremely competent professionals would waste all this time on a couple of malfunctioning punch card machines??? When enough evidence has been gathered, then it will be time to present it to the courts. I sure hope the judges are not as apathetic, thick, and as jaded as you are. Some people still have the capacity to allow new paradigms into their world-view, when they consider the facts.

I doubt that you are supporting your case by saying that Jesse Jackson agrees with you. Kerry has all but said that he needs to stay under the radar during this investigation, otherwise risk summoning all the right-wing flying monkeys from hell and Fox News to actively thwart the investigation. Blackwell & Ohio election officials haven't exactly been forthcoming with access to the records needed to conduct the audit. Neither were the Repugs who spent boatloads of money fighting the reasonable people who asked to have a printed receipt of their vote. Any thoughts why this might be the case?

People like you really irritate me. Since you aren't helping anything, can you just shut up and leave us alone?? Is that so hard???

[illuminaughty]

60. Thanks Pooka

Great points. I was headed for a delete post myself, because I've had it with these kinds of posts (attorney man) If I read 15 hours of DU while I was sick, and I was a newbie, all I would be is overwhelmed. I sure as hell wouldn't come to the conclusion that I'd merely seen anecdotal evidence and so on.
I posted a thread a few days after election defining it as anecdotal, asking how many people knew Repubs that voted Kerry.
But threads posted here that tell about witnessing voter intimidation, disenfrancisement, testimony from poll workers, attorneys, and enough stats to make you go blind is not anecdotal. Of course, how would these people recognize facts seeing as we live under an administration that ignores them and it's been four fucking years of one lie after another.

[Stand and Fight]

61. Amen to That!

I could not have said it any better myself. I mean, Jesus Christ, they just put a man on trial -- Peterson -- in California and said he was guilty based almost entirely on circumstantial evidence. If that shit goes, then I definitely think we have a case. And Mr. "As An Attorney" needs to pull his head from his hind quarters. Just because you read DU doesn't mean that you are actually taking in any of the information. I was a skeptic too till I read the information, and only then did I decide to start posting. And trust me, Mr. "As An Attorney," I was a sergeant in the Army and I got paid to make tough decisions -- life and death decisions. How's that for your tin foil hat post?!?

[electropop]

80. Doesn't a good lawyer start with a gut feeling, then investigate?

Every investigation starts with sketchy facts and gut instincts. In this case, there are tens of thousands of very specific reports of fraudulent activities. Any lawyer worth his exhorbitant pay would be beyond suspicious. There are so many leads you'd have no problem finding facts and building a case. Well, perhaps the only problem would be too _much_ evidence: too much to process and too much for a jury to grasp.

[Kralizec]

30. Truman01, the voting machines can be so easily manipulated, without

ANY trace. So in other words, you are asking me to trust Diebold (who's CEO promised a Bush victory in Ohio) to do everything perfectly. Do you really trust republican croonies after some of the actual lies we have heard form them? I sure as hell don't. And there has been more than enough red flags to warrant a second look. Do you disagree?

[Truman01]

50. Not at all, I don't disagree

In fact I made a post somewhere else on this board saying how I hate the idea of my vote being a magnetic 1 or 0 somewhere on somehardrive or chip. That is SO flimsy.

I'm all for looking into it.

I'm just afraid that if there was fraud it is going to be very very difficult to prove (thus the need for paper ballots).

Let's not get our hopes up too high, but lets exhaust all reasonable possibilities.

TC

[Eloriel]

35. I challenge you

to a duel.

Oops, wrong person. You're not Zell Miller, are you?

I challenge you to read through these three threads, including all the links, and come back and tell us you still don't think there's anything to the vote fraud / vote suppression issue:

VOTE FRAUD LINKS - A DU Compendium - Thread #3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x4927

VOTE FRAUD Links Compendium - Thread #2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x3223

VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#


You may be right that we have no hope, but we fer darn shure have no hope if we don't even try to fight it.

[Truman01]

43. Thank you for the links, I want it to work.

I promise that I will thoroughly read them. I agree, maybe I'm just being pessimistic. If there is anyway to make this happen for Kerry I would love to see it. I'm not trying to be a prick, I'm just trying not to get my hopes up for something that I fear has very little chance of succeeding.

If I offended anyone I'm sorry.

[Stand and Fight]

62. Not About Kerry....

This is not about Kerry, and I'm frankly tired of hearing people boil the issue down -- albeit wrongly -- to this being about John Kerry. While I'd love to put him in the White House, I also want to see justice prevail, and most importantly our grand democracy perserved. The criminals behind this face must be made to pay for their crimes. Kerry being president is a bonus, but now this has gone beyond him to the very heart and soul of the country I love.

[Truman01]

66. Now that is a point I can agree upon

That is a good reason to pursue this whole line of thinking. We need to insure that our electoral process is sound. But if you read these posts, most everyone understandably is looking to put Kerry in the white house with these investigations. More power to them if they can succeed. I just think we are setting ourselves up for a pretty big fall.

Lets pursue the matter to insure fair elections in the future, that is something that we can all agree upon.

[Ladyhawk]

106. This isn't about Kerry.

Right now, I'm rather disappointed in John Kerry. I'm not buying into the "he's working under the radar" theory. In my opinion, he abandoned us. If I'm proven wrong, I'll apologize.

This is about voter confidence and the future of voting in the United States. If the people have no confidence that their vote is being counted, we've lost our Democratic Republic. (Well, hell, I think we lost it on November 2, 2004, but I'm still willing to fight.)

Mr. "As an attorney" is thinking about this case as if the police work has already been done. Attorneys worry about burden of proof. Police do not. They go with gut instinct and gather evidence that either supports or refutes evidence of guilt.

So, are we already at the "attorney" level here? Do we have to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt? Or are we still at the police stage where evidence is being collected?

DUH! :crazy:

[IAMREALITY]

51. Ahhhhh, Eloriel, Always the Voice of Reason!

God Bless ya....

:)

[Cadence]

53. I completely agree.

I'm also a computer engineer and have looked at the software and the ease at which this could be done. The way they have their software set up it was basically designed to do this, not to prevent it like we would expect. It wouldn't have been difficult at all to get 3 million extra by switching names in the spreadsheet fields, adding votes, taking away etc. In fact www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevote.htm shows how easy it is. I don't think people really grasp that this is 2004, the technology age, that millions of dollars are spent every year on software design and security, that the level of coding for this software has become extremely sophisticated and that what Diebold did was basically the exact opposite.

I agree with they barely accomplished what they wanted in 2000 so they handled it this time. Also remember they didn't have the popular vote. The supreme court ordered Florida to stop counting when * was ahead by 579 votes. So this time they put systems in place to make it look unquestionable. How can you question 3 million votes? Exactly what we are doing. Well maybe there were 3 million votes but for someone else.

[Carolab]

56. It is NOT impossible that 3.5 million votes were fraudulent

If you think about it. Even a thousand votes in a precinct here, a precinct there that got moved around, "shifted", skimmed from Kerry and given to Bush. In a large state like mine, with large counties having nearly 100 precincts--well, just think about it--could be 50,000 to 100,000 votes per state easily that were entered incorrectly, or votes that were added in erroneously--remember we have MULTIPLE instances of "more votes than voters". Without going into each precinct and actually counting up ballots (where we have any, that is) and comparing that to what was entered for each precinct, then adding up all the votes in each precinct and comparing those to the reported totals, then adding up all the totals in all precincts in a county and comparing those to the reported totals, etc...you can't know for sure, can you? But it IS possible, you see?

[tngledwebb]

88. The fraud is deep and wide and planned for at least four years.

Yes, there could well have been 3.5 million fraudulent votes, in fact that may be the exact number flipped from Kerry to Bush.

[Stand and Fight]

10. Kick

Please keep this kicked.

:kick:

[Kralizec]

12. I agree! Never give up. What bugs me is that some say there is no evidence

and that they know Bush stole the election but can't do anything from it. Already that is a horrible statement. Saying you can't do anything is, well, sad. If they had been reading here, they would know there is tons of circumstatial evidence of fraud and apparently Bev has more than just circumstatial evidence. So anyone who would want to give up with those two things combined would either have to be a repug, not paying attention, or something else bad that I can't think of right now.

Peace.

[Stand and Fight]

14. Yeah, the Fat Lady Ain't Sung

Right now we would do ourselves a great injustice to simply accept things as they are just because the odds are against us. We have to consider that there have been those in the past who most assuredly were facing far greater obstacles and they prevailed. Just look at the abolition of slavery, women and minority suffrage, the Inquisition, the American Revolution... The best thing to do now is to stand and fight. We cannot allow democracy to perish.

[Hobbes199]

16. I agree.

I should have paid more attention in 2000, but figured like so many others that it was just politics as usual. But _this_ is not politics as usual, it goes beyond anything in the realm of acceptable. If we don't get this cleared up, there will never, ever, again be a free election in this country. We will live in a fascist regime — and I'm not talking figuratively, I'm not using colorful language, I'm dead serious. This is one of those important times in this countries history, but it does not have to go the way of the Revolutionary War and the Civil War. We can end this before it gets out of hand, but we need to act now, and not give up until everyone understands and is willing to resolve the issue.

[New Earth]

18. i followed the 2000 election religiously

and it IN NO WAY compares to what we saw in this one. At least in 2000 they were better at covering up their tracks - at least for long enough until the Supreme Court decision. But back then it was only the media covering the legal 'adventure' - there were no common everyday people working on it like we have here. They really made a mess of this one and did a TERRIBLE job hiding it. Kenneth Blackwell did the worst - I have a strong feeling he is going to go down. Cheating is of course bad and dishonest to begin with, but if you're going to do it AT LEAST DO IT SO THAT NO ONE CAN FIGURE OUT THAT YOU DID!!!!

[Stand and Fight]

19. A Confession

I have to confess something to everyone here... I voted for Shrub before I voted against him.

Seriously though, in 2000, being in the Army, I voted for the dirty SOB because I relied solely on the mainstream media. I did not research and fact check as I did this time around. Not to mention there was that little bitty issue of Iraq that totally turned me against the jack-ass. We cannot allow this to happen again.

[Hobbes199]

27. Many of you did

Many of you voted against him this time. He could not have won fairly.

[dewaldd]

20. There is no evidence that Bush won! 30 % of the vote is not auditable!

This was an illegal election.

[googly]

40. 30% not auditable sounds about right....however

the fight to disallow those dastardly electronic machines should have been fought BEFORE the election to have any legitimacy. All rules of election in place before election can not be changed post-election.

Therefore the fight now should concentrate on getting rid of these machines for the next election and thereafter.

[pointsoflight]

41. Even if that's your take...

...that the fight should now concencrate on fixing things for the next election, how is that best achieved? Republicans have been fighting changes to the electoral process tooth and nail, and they now control both houses!

I personally think our best chance for real change is to expose the problems that occurred in this election to apply tremendous pressure for change. So the efforts we see here ARE worthwhile, even for those who are looking to the next election.

[Truman01]

67. I agree with you n/t

[Stand and Fight]

63. Who Failed Us

I feel that the Democrats and Republicans -- with some stred of decency -- failed us in not standing up against the idea of machines that tally votes with no form of verification. I feel the media failed us by letting this slip by under the radar. It just amazes me that the supposedly most powerful nation on Earth seems to lack so critically in brain power. Jesus, it's like giving fucking nukes to a kid with a high IQ, no common sense, and all of the emotional maturity of a rock.

[helderheid]

21. What you'd have to believe to think this election was fair

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/news/Story.asp?ID=4688

[Stand and Fight]

22. Thanks

Great post! It definitely points out the conspiracy theory of Bush having won.

[info being]

24. No question. But how do we fight when we don't live in a democracy?

The people in Iraq couldn't fight Sadaam. The people in the USSR couldn't fight Stalin. And we can't fight Bush.

[Stand and Fight]

26. Hogwash

As bad as Bush is, he'd have to really tip the scales to get as bad as Stalin or Saddam. These guys murdered in the millions their own citizens. To say that we can't fight is folly -- just look at the last century if you think we can't fight Bush. That's nonsense to take such a defeatist attitude when an examination of history proves otherwise.

[Vidar]

38. The hell we can't!

When we riot he can't call out the National Guard or the Marines; they're in Iraq (or Iran, or N. Korea or Syria...).

[understandinglife]

36. Agree. And...

....the franchise is Ours.

It is our responsibility to hold oursevles and each other accountable.

Bush and Congress and the SC and the Media work for us; time to remember that and make it stick.

Since we have no way of knowing if our vote was counted; since we have no way of knowing how our vote was counted, it is our fundamental responsibility to the franchise to declare the election -- INVALID.

"Prove My Vote Counts, Now"

Peace.

[corky44]

39. I don't know if this point has been

made, but, how can you even look at yourself in the mirror?
We have people dying right now in Iraq- for a lie- and we can't even
muster a morally based response to, what many suspect, is one of the greatest crimes in our nation's history? If not now, when?
Imagine where we go from here if they get away with zero accountability.
They alrady tried to get sneak and peek authority for tax records.
Did red state types vote for that?

[Stand and Fight]

64. YES!

So, I ask you, my fellow progressives, WHEN WILL WE STAND AND FIGHT???

[goldengreek]

44. Fighting in this context hasn't worked so far.

It's been one relentless defeat after another since 1980, with a reprieve in 1992 and '96 thanks to Perot. Even then we had to give the right wing most of what it wanted. And even then they impeached Bill on bogus charges.

About a third of our population has lost its marbles, and they've been herded into supporting the Nazi Party. There's no reasoning with them and no comparable group in the United States to counterbalance them (liberals being only 20% of the population and all).

Then we have to worry about those lovely Democratic leaders who throw their legs up in the air at the smallest whiff of trouble.

The United States has become an insane beast armed to the teeth with WMDs on an unimaginable scale -- and not good for much else since it decided to ship its factories off to China. Cut off its oxygen and let it rot is what I say. In the meantime I'd recommend getting the hell out of harm's way.

[goldengreek]

45. P.S. And I'm ASSUMING Bush lost.

The troubled part of the population is only a third of us. But they hate the rest of us so much they'd herd us into camps if they could get away with it.

And if this beast collapses... will these maniacs blame themselves? Hell no! That'll just make them build those camps faster so they can pack away all those "evildoers" who brought this upon them.

[bones_7672]

49. So, what do WE THE PEOPLE do on Jan 20 when Bush is sworn in? n/t

[googly]

52. Impeach Bush

[bones_7672]

108. based on what?

what charges? who will bring them, which senator? Nothing's going to happen, nothing.

[pauldp]

54. NO PAPER TRAIL = NO DEMOCRACY!

PERIOD.

We MUST stand and fight.

[Stand and Fight]

65. No, We March

Drastic times call for drastic measures. We cannot allow this to continue lest we be thrown into camps, lest we watch our democracy butchered by these maniacs. People, I urge you to take to the streets and refuse to back down. Scream, yell, shout -- but by any means necessary fight the dammed bastards to engineered this heinous crime! Fight them with every democratic LIBERAL PROGRESSIVE bone you've got in your body, because friends you are fighting for our very way of life. Look to the 1960s! How can we stand by while our brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers, cousins, uncles, aunts -- our loved ones -- die in an unjust war? How can we stand by as our Constitution is dragged through the mud and they want to apply discrimination to it? How can we stand by while some 230 years of AMERICAN history is tossed aside by these zealots? I tell you now, WE MUST STAND AND FIGHT!

[malatesta1137]

68. Very naive.

My thread WAKE-UP CALL, DU had nothing to do with 'defeatism' or 'dissent'.

It had to do with the REALITY that this Ohio recount will go absolutely NOWHERE, you good people are wasting your energy and hopes in the wrong cause. Kerry knew that and that's why he conceded so fast.

Just yesterday, a judge blocked the recount, do you folks realize what kind of corruption we're up against and that this recount effort is a laughing stock?

When I wrote months ago that the election was locked for Bush, people here called me the same names, 'defeatist', 'negative', or worse.

It turned out I was right and I will be right this time too. Bush will serve his full term, he will invade Iran and Syria, and the 2006 election will also be rigged.

Unless Democrats learn how to see elections the same way Republicans do, they will always be in the minority, until they're extinct.

Expressions like FIGHT LIKE HELL, WE THE PEOPLE or WE MUST NOT SURRENDER IN PROTECTING OUR DEMOCRACY are stuff out of high school, folks, elections are not a game, they are serious, Republicans know that and will stop at NOTHING to win. Democrats need to realize that.

[IAMREALITY]

69. You're a Piece of Work

:eyes:

**many expletives deleted**

And as a final note, a judge DID NOT block the recount, so get your facts straight before spinning your deception. The judge merely said there is no grounds to rush the recount prior to certification, though the recount is expected to still start by Dec 6th.

[malatesta1137]

71. he did block the recount

prior to certification, I know my facts. I've been right about everything I've written so far on DU in the last year. If using expletives helps you ease the pain of facing REALITY, go ahead and use them.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stand and Fight]

78. I second that

Go check out your buddies at Fox News. I'm sure you'd fit in really well with that crowd.

[Stand and Fight]

70. Sheesh...

Let's get one thing straight. The judge did not block the recount genius -- he blocked them trying to have the recount early. And if the founding fathers and people who marched for civil rights in the 1960s had dispositions like yours we'd have gotten no where. Thank God there are people who have the balls to FIGHT LIKE HELL. Thank God there are people who remember WE THE PEOPLE. Thank God they will shout with all their democratic vigor WE MUST NOT SURRENDER IN PROTECTING OUR DEMOCRACY. Quite honestly, people like you wouldn't have their freedom if it were not for people like me -- a soldier and an activist.

[Pooka Fey]

104. Amen Brother !!!

Boy the freepers came out in force to reply to your original post!!! And I for one, really needed to hear your message, not because I feel defeated, but because sometimes we all need to hear an inspiring message to push us past our fatigue and despair.

You're right on the money. People like Malatesta wouldn't be free to spew their cynical, pointless, defeatist negativity at the rest of us without soldiers and patriots who are literally willing to die to protect something as precious as our constitution and our liberty.

I really don't get people who say "OH We're too weak to stand up to the REPUGS!!! Well, I'm fucking not. Things have been just great in the good ol' USA for a hell of a long time. Now, we're in trouble and it's time to buck up and carry our portion of the load that people like George Washington carried before us.

I WILL NEVER SURRENDER IN PROTECTING OUR DEMOCRACY. I'm a hell of a lot better writing letters than carrying a weapon, but I'll do whatever it takes, for as long as it takes.

[Stand and Fight]

72. And Who Cares?

Who cares if it goes nowhere! It is about principle, and there is no harm done in NOT trying. There is plenty of harm done when you choose to do nothing when you have the capacity to act. Inaction is pathetic and self-serving. Just as bad as those who stood by while Hitler murdered millions.

[malatesta1137]

75. I am not suggesting inaction

I am suggestion smart action. Try to read my posts with some degree of attention.

[Stand and Fight]

76. Attention

Buddy, I got your idea of action loud and clear. You're saying stoop to the level of the Rethugs and use dirty tricks. Gotta apply an old adage here... "Two wrongs do not make a right."

[malatesta1137]

81. so go stand outside the White House

with a protest sign, see how far that advances your cause.

Democrats are not above 'funny' elections, they have those in their past too, in case you forgot. Elections are not kid games, until we don't learn the lesson, we Will ALWAYS lose.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stand and Fight]

86. Let bygones be bygones, malatesta

Don't you have anything better to do with your time? Can't you see that your words are baneful and are only having a negative affect? If this is the way you get your jollies, it would be permissible that you get some serious help. As for me, I'm sticking by my guns and I will not be one of those who goes "silently into the night." I cannot be held account for the actions of Democrats in the past, but I can make the right choice for myself. As someone who actively participates in politics, your attitude, your apathy, have grave implications for the future of democracy. Look, I don't want to fight with you and I see it as a pointless measure to continue this discourse with you. You will not change your stand-point and I will not alter mine. I believe passionately in the truth and merit of my convictions to preserve our democracy at any costs. If you can fault anyone else or myself in doing that then it is you who truly have the problem. It is not about the futility of action -- it is about the result of action building upon action. If one degree of pro-activeness does not work then I trust those who agree with me will take additional action when necessary. It is all about a snow ball effect, and our actions, while they may seem immature and futile to you, are building up to something that will ultimately be successful. We're fighting this battle now -- not because we necessarily believe it will work, but because we will not abandon ourselves to hopeless apathy. So excuse us while we hoist our banners and protests signs for the great silent majority who cannot or will not act. You will take your road and we will take ours. Don't be petty over it. Just accept that we are committed to taking action now -- not because it will result in overturning the election, but because it is better to stand and fight than to crawl and grovel. We must right the wrongs of this election and protect our democracy. If democracy were a religion, then my religion it would be.

[malatesta1137]

90. I'm sorry if pointing out REALITY

is bringing you down. Keep dreaming about your 'truth and merit of convictions to preserve our democracy at any costs'.

Great sound bites and, by the way, you say 'we are committed to taking action now'. Can you be specific? You don't mean by taking action simply writing on DU, do you?

[Stand and Fight]

92. Very well

Obviously, you cannot be reasoned with in even a diplomatic fashion. You're as bad as that fuck-wad Bush. I conclude my discourse with you on the premise that you are simply detached from observing any level of compromise and diplomacy.

[malatesta1137]

97. you use the F word and you call

ME anti-diplomacy?? lol just answer my question: what do you specifically mean by 'committed to take action'? What action are you actually taking?

[Name removed]

98. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stand and Fight]

95. IAMREALITY

Let's just ignore this bane -- it won't go away if we keep feeding its need for negativity. Besides, this is akin to trying to reason with a smirking chimp.

:evilgrin:

[pointsoflight]

83. I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but you've shown your true colors.

Pretty obvious when you say something completely misleading like "a judged blocked the recount." You know damn well that the judge said that he is in FAVOR of granting a recount, but just won't grant an EARLY recount. This has a completely different flavor than what you said.

[malatesta1137]

85. I don't need your benefit

the judge did stop the recount before votes are certified.

My point is that judges are 95% corrupt, we will not win by counting on them.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pointsoflight]

84. If you're not interested, why read and post in the Election 2004 thread?

[pointsoflight]

89. So do you think it's a good use of time to start arguments on DU?

The whole premise of your argument is that we're wasting our time. I and many others, including the Government Accountability Office and the democratic party in Ohio, don't agree, but let's set that aside for a minute.

Do you think it's a better use of your time and my time and others time to argue back and forth with people on this board? Take your own advice and quit wasting time and effort that can be used toward other things.

[malatesta1137]

96. multiple threads?

I am only writing in one. And yes, the Government Accountability Office and the Democratic party in Ohio are, too, wasting their time.

At best, they will point out irregularities that did not ultimately change the end result of the election, they might get 45 seconds in the evening news.

Bush will fully serve his 2nd term, at least 2 more countries will be invaded and thousands will die for American hegemony. 2006 will be rigge as well.

Elections are not won by recounts, petitions and lawsuits, look at Ukraine, people are on the fucking streets FIGHTING. Americans don't fight, but they do drop bombs on others in the comfort of their airplanes from 3,000 ft above.

[pointsoflight]

99. You don't get it--the right to vote is at the very core of our democracy

This issue is NOT just about winning an election. It's also about reforming the election process. The best way to get our horribly defunct election process fixed is to expose the disenfranchisment, computer problems, etc. that occurred in this year's election. So yeah, the GAO isn't going to do anything to change the outcome of the election. I know that. They won't even have a report for us for many months, I suspect. But their work (and our work) in investigating this year's election is still critical to forcing change.

You may not think this is important. I beg to differ and the authors of the Constitution beg to differ. Voting is fundamental to our very democracy.

[malatesta1137]

100. You are missing my point

you are not going ANYWHERE by exposing the disenfranchisment, computer problems, etc

Look at Ukraine. YOU HAVE TO FUCKING FIGHT. DO YOU GET IT NOW??

[tngledwebb]

91. You mean WE Democrats, do you not?

Or what is YOUR party affiliation?

[Stand and Fight]

94. Ignore this... thing

Ignore this thing that only seeks to be a voice of ill will and negative discourse. There is no point in talking to one so removed from reason. Consider the equivalent of trying to have a conversation with a smirking chimp...

[malatesta1137]

102. I have no affiliation

I am an extreme liberal, bordering anarchist socialist.

I'm with Gore Vidal:

"In America, there are two wings of one single party. The conservative wing, also known as Democrats, and the reactionary wing, also known as Republicans, who would rather be caught dead than being called the hypocrites that Democrats are".

[Petrodollar Warfare]

103. "..as for me, give me Liberty of give me death!"

"....They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us.

Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775
http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/henry-liberty.html


"The right of voting for representatives is the primary right by which all other rights are protected."

"To take away this right is to reduce a man to slavery."

- Thomas Paine

[GetTheRightVote]

110. I like the way you think, visit NYC for the War Protest

or be reduced to slavery !!!!!!!!

*******************************************************************

New Thread as follows in Activism and Events calling for action:

Emergency Anti-War-Conference, all day SAT. 12/4, NYC


"I am going to march all over downtown Wash, D.C. this weekend and go on and on about the stolen election, even if I am alone it will make me feel so much better about everything .... I can't wait to see the looks on people's faces when I walk by with my sign. I am strong, I am an American, I have rights no matter what they say, I will be free, even if it is just me, I will march."


" Power to the People "

[molly]

105. 55,000,000 people did not vote for the idiot

he has absolutely no mandate.

[bones_7672]

107. and almost 62,000,000 did. n/t

[pauldp]

109. Lets face it we don't know how many people voted for him

or Kerry.

the Repugs killed the paper trail. Now why would they do that?

R.I.P. HR 2239