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OH Vote Suppression: 92,000 optiscan/punchcards didn't record vote

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FullCountNotRecount Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:14 PM
Original message
OH Vote Suppression: 92,000 optiscan/punchcards didn't record vote
Dems given wrong type of pen to mark optiscan ballot, oversensitivity of tabulators.

Predominant Dem precincts given a different weight of punchcard which did not read as well as recommended weight.

Source: Counselor Petroikas (sp) Election Protection Attorney in Ohio on Election day as he told Cliff Kelley on public affairs program in Chicago WVAZ-FM 6-8 CST Sunday, November 14, 2004.
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Goldeneye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. link?
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 03:18 PM by Goldeneye
If they marked them with a pen they should be easily read when they do the hand recount.
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Cobalt Violet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. So were these votes ever counted?
By hand or otherwise?
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pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. No, they're "spoiled" ballots.
I believe that they would be examined in the event of a recount, though.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. Are they going to try and count these votes NOW?????
Please tell me they will look at these and try to cout them.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
4. I heard someone talk about how they were given a marker instead of a pen
to do the arrow ballots. From what I understand that means that the machine will not be able to read it...
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. some indians were given alchohol based
ink pens that did not read as well
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savetheuniverse Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. firewater!
well, there's a nice little screw to the indian vote double-wammy...but, there's another northern light in this, his name is chester nez codetalker....(sorry to go mystic on ya, gotta believe in something when logic is defied defiled and decried)
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knowbody0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. that is truly funny. the connection. thanx
ive been thinkin of movin back to the rez
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NJ_Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. C'mon... Will the ways we were screwed...

... continue to pile up?


Man... this is a mess...
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wurzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. Is there any Dem leader who cares???
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txindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Since Sen. Kerry has his lawyers in Ohio, I think so
I don't know if these votes will count initially (since they are 'spoiled'), but they WILL be counted in a recount -- and a recount has already been called for (informally) by Cobb and Badnarik. So, I think these ballots will make it into the final total.

Ohio really could flip. The plot has thickened so much it's practically solid. ;)
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wurzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Patience Wurzel Patience!
If Kerry is involved he is doing it the right way. But it sure is hard watching the Repukes crow. And everyone acting like nothing is happening.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. gotta link?
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. Curiouser and curiouser!
Socratic Thinking:
Whom decides who gets which type of ballot?
Was there provable malice aforethought in that decision?
Where else might this have occurred?
How much of this is discoverable(legalese) and actionable by Kerry's leagle eagles?


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FullCountNotRecount Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. All we need is a paper trail: We have that mostly
I'm only concerned about the provisionals being shredded after they are disallowed and not making it to a court (where we do NOT want to have to go, because we will LOSE.) We just want the citizens of OH to conduct and have witnesses to a recount. The Optiscans if marked with a wrong pen or slightly out of the circle will count in a hand recount. The thick paper punchcards can be handcounted or the tabulator machine can be recalibrated.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Appreciate the not going to court
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 04:51 PM by Pithy Cherub
but the threat may carry more weight to get exactly what you outlined in Ohio. Even though it started as a state's rights case in Florida, * v. Gore was partially hung up on the state mandated timing of when everything had to be counted/done to select the elector slate. You are very familiar with Ohio and its timing mechanisms. We want every vote counted through every available legal and lawful means at our disposal within the right timeframes. I appreciate your point fully! :toast:

spelling as usual :)
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maryallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Boy, Blackwell is really hung up on the WEIGHT OF PAPER.
Edited on Sun Nov-14-04 07:06 PM by maryallen
Remember -- before the election -- when a ton of new registrations came into Blackewell and he turned them down because the paper on which they were written was too light?

Somebody went to court to get that changed, or he just caved to the pressure, I can't remember which ...
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
15. source?
lots of posts with this:
Source: Counselor Petroikas (sp) Election Protection Attorney in Ohio on Election day as he told Cliff Kelley on public affairs program in Chicago WVAZ-FM 6-8 CST Sunday, November 14, 2004.

where is it coming from?
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FullCountNotRecount Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Source:Sunday Morning Public Affairs in Chicago WVAZ-FM
that's the source.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Who is the election attorney who said all of this working for?
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Polly Glot Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-14-04 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
21. WTF?!? I'm in Ohio, our precinct has the optical scanner machines
but PENCILS (or pencil-like objects) to mark our ballots were dangling from little ropes on the walls of the voting boothlets! Does anyone know whether there are different kinds of optiscan machines, one reading ink and another one reading pencil?!? I can't imagine that Blackwell & Friends would have tried to rig the results in my solidly-repug part of the state but I guess you never know.

:mad:
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FullCountNotRecount Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. On AAR a Native American said in AZ he was handed
a pen by the election judges but the ballot said a No. 2 pencil.
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JusticeForAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 04:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. Hmmm I have always used the pen
they give me here in AZ. I voted early this year at the County Office, same type of pen.

I don't recall the instruction on the ballot.

Thanks for posting - I will be alert.
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. I voted absentee in AZ and saw two different sets of instructions.
There was a paper insert in the envelope that said to use No. 2 pencil, while the ballot itself said to use black ball-point pen. After filling it out with black pen, I changed my mind about one of the judges and took my spoiled ballot to an early voting place. I got a new ballot and filled it out there. There was a black felt tipped pen in the booth. Every time I've voted on election day in AZ, there have been black felt tipped pens in the booth.

I'm going to call the SOS today and complain about the different instructions.
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JusticeForAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. All of this makes me a bit uneasy...
Would you be willing to send a follow-up complaint to your Reps and Senator? I will write mine, too. The frequency of their elections gives them more of an incentive to make sure that the voter's wishes are heard. If you know your district, you can find their addresses on the attached links.

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/MemberRoster.asp?Body=H

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/MemberRoster.asp?Body=S
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Just talked to SOS's office.
I explained the situation I described earlier and was told Maricopa County is responsible for putting the instruction insert into the envelope with my ballot.

As far as the difference between writing instruments, she said graphite works best with the scanners used here, which is why Maricopa County recommended using a No. 2 pencil. She said the reason they don't recommend felt tipped pens is because they bleed through the paper, and by using one, the voter could spoil their ballot without even realizing it. She said the felt tipped pens in the booths contain a specially made ink, which is not available to the public at large. The ink contains graphite.

She suggested I call Maricopa County on the differing instructions. Their number is 602.506.1511.

I think I'll call them, and also drop my state reps/senator a line about making the instructions consistent.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. I think there are
Somebody told me earlier that his absentee came with a pencil in the package. I use opti-scan, but we use the draw a line kind. Ours have to have ink. Blue or black ink at that. I'm thinking the bubble kind use pencil. I talked to a few people a while back about educating people on the kind of pen or pencil to use on their ballots, but, *sigh* nobody listened.
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Dem2theMax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 12:52 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. I did absentee here in Calif. Had to be pen, blue or black.
You filled in the bubble. And then it was Opti-Scanned when sent in.

Once this mess is cleaned up, we have to get a voting system that is the same for EVERYONE in EVERY state. And need I say, a tamper proof system? :evilgrin: This is just crazy the way it is right now. :crazy:
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. I did absentee in California too. # 2 pencil was specified to fill in the
bubbles. In the primary at the polling place we had #2 pencils also. Sacto city/county. Apparently even bubble filling requirements aren't consistent. Sheesh.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Weird but a case in Napa Valley earlier this year
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 01:35 AM by Carolab
that I found on Votelaw said that ballots were marked with different inks and that there was suspicion that some had been marked "after the fact" (by others)...I think this case is still pending

There should be standards here.

In my polling place (MN) we had ballpoint pens attached to a string in the booths. I remember thinking it was odd because I thought the last time I voted in 2002 we used another type of marker. Also, this time the ovals were bigger and took a lot of time to fill in completely.

PENCILS are crazy! Marks can be erased, after all!
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angrydemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 01:24 AM
Response to Original message
25. Votes Should Be Counted No Matter What........
because it wasn't the voters mistake they was given the wrong type of pen to mark the ballot with. The BS just keeps getting deeper and deeper on all of this. I don't see how they can legally take the voters right to vote away when it wasn't there fault it was the people working there giving them the wrong pens. And if they don't count those they took peoples right to vote away over some duma** workers mistake! Thats BS!
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
32. Opti-scanners, tabulators easily tampered with--Clinton Justice Dept.
This is from 2000 election.


http://smirkingchimp.com/viewtopic.php?topic=2585&forum...

From: http://www.headlinepress.com /

"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""quote"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""

The Justice Department is investigating the possibility that ballot counting machines in the Palm Beach, Florida area were tampered with, in order that the predominantly Democratic area would have an inordinate number of ballots cast out.

Ballot counting machines normally operate by passing light through holes punched in paper ballots. Investigators are looking into reports that the photo sensitivity was altered in some machines, in order that those ballots with weak punches would undercount, and therefore be discarded.

Experts in the field say this is one of the most subtle and hard to detect methods of altering election results. Suspicions have already been raised regarding the illegal readjustment of photo-optic sensors in past elections in Florida and elsewhere.

It is far easier to alter a counting machine than to fool three or four bipartisan humans scrutinizing every card, which is why hand counting is generally considered to be the most accurate method of counting.

Texas Governor George W. Bush obviously agrees, as it was he who signed into law in 1998 a statute authorizing hand recounting in close elections.

More to come...
""""""""""""""""""""""""""endquote"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""


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danfromqueens Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
33. we're not crazy
it's all a conspiracy
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danfromqueens Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. we can't be wrong
if we lost the election its because it was stolen
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