Holt Bill is Dead for Now; Negotiations Breakdown; Kim Zetter at Wired.com reports

[Land Shark]

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2007/07/holt-paper-trai.html

Gee, remember when the Holt bill was an unstoppable juggernaut that was futile to resist with 216 co-sponsors?

Kim Zetter now reports the bill de-railed. Uncertain fate as to reintroduction, or not.

The blog is vague enough since preliminary to be consistent with a vote proceeding anyway. After all, Holt's spokesman reached very late had no information.

THe one thing I am concluding right now is only this: THOSE who said the Holt bill was an unstoppable juggernaut that would inevitably pass because of various factors were perhaps not intentionally lying, but were clearly trading in propaganda of the most traditionally odious kind.

Everyone on both sides of the bill should maintain or redouble their efforts. The bill needs to be stronger without imposing additional costs on local governments.

on edit, added: Same old stuff from me, here's what I wrote to a listserv June 16, 2007:

It's interesting how people get "feelings" in DC that are powerful. Some sense a palpable atmosphere of corruption or even evil. (I didn't). Some sense an unstoppable Holt momentum (I don't).

It's just the world capital of hype and bull. That's politics.

[kpete]

1. good riddance

to this very bad bill - We can do SO much better. Thanks for all of your hard work!

[stellanoir]

2. Phew. . .

& thanks

[Peace Patriot]

3. Why don't they pass a very simple bill that says: 1) a ballot for every vote, and

2) count all the ballots.

Is that so hard?

They can keep their shiny new, extremely insider hackable, electronic voting machines--and use them for data storage, conveying data, and/or to double-check the tabulation. But first count is hard copy, posted in every precinct, and universal. 100% audit. Count every vote. Nothing less will restore confidence. If they can pay Diebold and ES&S $4 billion (and counting) for these crapass, hackable machines, they can find the pittance needed for paper ballots and hand counters. And all they have to do is ask and thousands of Americans will help, for free. Americans WANT to help. They KNOW something's wrong. And when something's wrong, we want to help. That's who Americans are. Just ask us! Instead, they've done everything they can to STOP volunteerism at the polls, and to shut the public out.

A simple bill. Restore transparency NOW. That's all they have to do. That's all they ever had to do. A 100% handcount solves all problems. You don't have to get into esoteric "testing" of computer programs, and complicated auditing formulae, and put-offish "commissions," and (insane) protection of "trade secret" code, and all the rest. Just mandate vote counting that everyone can see and understand. Period.

If our political leadership still believes in democracy, at all.

[papau]

8. Holt does say a paper ballot is the only official ballot - the "paper trail" is made substancial and

is the official ballot on DRE machines.

[papau]

4. what's your version of Holt - what "additional cost" provisions would you remove? What would you add

n/t

[OnTheOtherHand]

5. "juggernaut"?

American Heritage (via dictionary.com): "Something, such as a belief or institution, that elicits blind and destructive devotion or to which people are ruthlessly sacrificed.... An overwhelming, advancing force that crushes or seems to crush everything in its path...."

Are you suggesting that some supporters of HR 811 have characterized it as a "juggernaut," much less "an unstoppable juggernaut that would inevitably pass"?

Or is your rebuke perhaps directed to hypothetical Martians? I suppose hypothetical Martians may truck in "propaganda of the most traditionally odious kind."

[Land Shark]

6. can you search your emails? You can find "unstoppable" and juggernaut re Holt

but be sure to use your thesaurus, and to check the emails of your buddies in votetrust

[OnTheOtherHand]

11. you are making no sense

"be sure to use your thesaurus"? Umm, OK.... Fetish, graven image, golden calf, Baal; Buddha, Krishna (etc.). Nope. I apparently don't get as many e-mails from my so-called "buddies in votetrust" as you assume, but even if I did, I doubt they used any of those terms to describe HR 811.

If you are attempting actually to communicate ideas, you could easily do better.

[kpete]

7. Martians

would not support this bill and neither should we. I am sure your "hypothetical Martians" would want to make SURE that each and everyone of their votes were counted - and NOT by machines or corrupt martian politicians.

[OnTheOtherHand]

9. well, that's one opinion

I think that all things considered, precinct-based optical scanners with rigorous audits are probably the best way to conduct American elections. That seems to have been Andy Stephenson's opinion as well. But hand counts for federal elections could work. I am not holding my breath.

It looks to me like a chance to get rid of paperless DREs is slipping away because some folks are insisting on something better. That's fine, if they can actually get something better. Otherwise, forgive me on not congratulating anyone for saving paperless DREs.

[Ellipsis]

13. Well considered

"I think that all things considered, precinct-based optical scanners with rigorous audits are probably the best way to conduct American elections. That seems to have been Andy Stephenson's opinion as well. But hand counts for federal elections could work."

[troubleinwinter]

14. "Andy Stephenson's opinion"

... is shown in my signature line.

[Land Shark]

29. I wish Andy were here for many reasons; ONE is to grow/change opinions or confirm they're same n/t

[demodonkey]

38. I wish Andy were here, because his writing was CONCISE.

He could say more in two sentence than some people could say in pages and pages and pages of screed.

[troubleinwinter]

39. As:

“To me, my ballot is the most sacred sacrament of the secular religion we call Democracy… With proper auditing and truly random recounts, optical scans are the safest and most accurate way to count an election.” ~Andy Stephenson

[Land Shark]

58. Why not do this yourself instead of looking for others to lead?

[troubleinwinter]

40. If you want to reject Andy's writings, work and opinions, fine.

But you cannot pretend that he did not stand by them. He quite specifically said otherwise:

"Just putting thoughts on paper right now. So in case something happens to me, god forbid...I have it down for others in the future.
.....

Now there are many people that say we should be all hand counted paper all the time. In an ideal world we would do that. But realistically that is not going to happen. Elections offices in most jurisdictions if not all, are under funded. Elections officials struggle with tight budgets and in most cases do a damned good job with what they have. Not all elections officials are bad and many want to run good clean elections. Keeping the system honest is up to us. With proper auditing and truly random recounts optical scans are the safest and most accurate way to count an election. The trouble starts when the votes are sent via electronic means to a central tabulator. I would also add that the tabulator needs to be as secure as Ft. Knox because after all our votes are more precious than gold."

His article can be read here. It was the last article he wrote, just a draft. He wanted to get it down on paper and into our hands, should he not make it.

http://www.votetrustusa.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=91&Itemid=846

Honestly, I have given up trying to figure out what is up with you. You wish Andy were here to "change his opinion"??!!! WHAT THE FUCK? Or "confirm" his opinion? What the fuck is with you? If you want to hold some other opinion along with Bev, go right on ahead. But I cannot imagine where you get off pretending that Andy did not intensely mean what he said and worked his ass (and life) off for.

[Land Shark]

59. People that have passed on can't get new information and change their mind

There's new information out about hand counting, new contexts.

In the quote, Andy recognizes what's right, hand counts, but (without saying so) assumes that even for the integrity of democracy officials simply won't do the best or right thing.

But information is coming out that it's a lot easier or less exepnsive in time and cost than most think, and that all forms of electronic voting including opscan are more expensive and more unreliable than most people think. For example, most don't realize that a scan is made of the paper ballot and then the opscan interprets the scan, which is the true ballot.

I think part of respecting someone is respecting their right to change their mind, and my comment reflects that is an open question of whether he would change his mind if he were here. Your quote supports that, because he recognizes hand counts as best but makes a strategic compromise based on conditions then existing. As conditions change, his opinion might as well. I don't know, though, and neither do you.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

41. Cancerous Campaign

Cancerous Campaign
Voter activist Andy Stephenson fights charges he faked his illness—from his hospital bed.
By George Howland Jr.
http://www.seattleweekly.com/2005-07-06/news/cancerous-campaign.php

Gee, what grifter started the rumor that Andy was not very sick?

Why didn't Bev Harris provide Andy with health insurance out of the $997,000
BBV took in the first year?

Or maybe she could have paid it out of the Qui Tam that Andy wasn't included in.

This E-voting thing is a real cottage industry as long as the problem continues,
it sure does.

[Ellipsis]

52. ...and his little dog too.

I never got past the pic until you mentioned it.

Here's to ya
:toast:

The concept of Paper ballots for federal elections and Op-scan for complex local elections T'was why I chimed in.

...and the fact that OTOH weighed in with a position seemed noteworthy.

[troubleinwinter]

54. And his little dog too, who he named 'Ballot'. The little portrait of him is of paper...

... the Constitution!

:toast:

[mzmolly]

20. I agree. We have optiscan in Minnesota.

We have a paper trail and we have a hard copy of the vote tallies from the machines. I dont see us going back to "hand counted ballots" on a mass level. Paper trail YES, hand counted, not gonna happen.

[OnTheOtherHand]

21. and you audit your ballots!

I get to talk sometimes with Mark Halvorson at Citizens for Election Integrity -- I'm very impressed. Minnesota's audit system can be improved, but it already gives reason to believe that the MN vote counting was substantially accurate.

[mzmolly]

24. It seems to work quite well here.

:hi:

[Stevepol]

49. Hope you have robust and honest audits and posting of results at every precinct.

I think the scanners have caused more problems in the past than the touchscreens, praticularly in MN where I think the scanners, suitably programmed gave the election to Coleman over Mondale in 02. I think Mondale won that election. And Franken better make sure he gets a real landslide against whoever he runs against, hopefully Coleman. If it's w/i 5% points, the programming can do wonders w/o raising suspicion.

What are your auditing provisions in the land o lakes?

[mzmolly]

50. Here is some info:

http://www.ceimn.org/files/CEIMNAuditReport.pdf

I worked on the Wellstone later Mondale campaign, and he came in so late (a week before the election) and such a bruhaha was made about the funeral that it's tough to say? The polls were also quite close.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

35. actually, the merry band of "Paypals" aren't the issue here

Its not the bloggers and would be personalities who are hurting this bill.

Its not about the bizarre, rhetoric filled National Enquirer style hit pieces that these bloggers have blogged.

Its not the "We accept Pay Pal, Master Card & Visa - Cult", or the merry little band of "activists" now to be known as "The PayPal's".

The real opponents are very well represented in the minority opinion on HR 811.
They - don't - want - paper.

They have more lobbying dollars and more lobbying power and their goal is clear.

We have had two presidential elections with outcomes that we couldn't verify.

They want a third.

Yes, killing HR 811 would help keep some rolling in $$$clover, and
yes, some actually think killing election reform helps us (somehow?)
but these have far less clout than they think.

[Land Shark]

44. News flash: Bill changed to match vendor industry position on (e.g.) source code

See the ETC (Electronic Technology Council) position statement on federal reform.

With ill-advised changes to the bill like that, you just mix everything up, and can't tell who's what without any real evidence, as you do in the post above.

[disndat]

10. Thank God

for the alert grass root activists for putting this bogus Holt "reform" bill to rest. I have to credit Bev Harris. She was the first to sound the alarm when this "reform" bill was introduced as the be-all end-all answer to election fraud. As it turned out, Holt is beholden to a big DRE type manufacturer in his Congressional district. Similarly, the Feinstein bill on the Senatorial side was suspect from the start with Sen. Dianne Feinstein, war profiteer, its sponsor.

[OnTheOtherHand]

17. it will be instructive to see whether an HR 811 opponent corrects you n/t

[Wilms]

55. I thought the same thing this morning of a supporter or opponent. n/t

[troubleinwinter]

12. Zitter does not say "The Holt Bill is Dead",

Zitter does not say "The Holt Bill is Dead", as you state in your subject line.

She does say "I'm hearing from a few sources... It's unclear what the bill's fate may be at this point."

She did not say Holt's spokesman "had no information". She did say "he was unable to confirm" "the breakdown in negotiations".

I'm sure you're "not intentionally lying". Did you say something about "clearly trading in propaganda of the most traditionally odious kind"?

[kpete]

15. a liberal mind

considers all things from all sources and then attempts to choose wisely but always with integrity and conviction.

[troubleinwinter]

16. Thank you.

I do attempt to consider things from all sources, choose wisely, with interity and conviction.

[Land Shark]

32. & we can reach different conclusions after the process, but let's all do the process of learning nt

[Land Shark]

28. The original point was that the uncertainty reflected by Zetter PROVES HR811 is no juggernaut

It does not mean Holt won't still pass or won't come to a vote.

But if things were exactly as characterized in your post, troubleinwinter, then you would be correct and i would stand corrected. My intent all along is as stated in the title to this reply.

[troubleinwinter]

33. So, it's not what you type, but what you intend? "uncertainty" expressed in the article

PROVES some unwritten "juggernaut" thing that you assert was expressed somewhere by unknowns without any source?

I did not "characterize" shit. I quoted the article and quoted you.

Why not just come out and say you misrepresented the article? First you assert that it is "Dead" in the title of a thread, and when shown that nothing says so, you say within a post "It does not mean Holt won't still pass".

WTF??

Gads.

[OnTheOtherHand]

34. Princess Bride, anyone?

It just so happens that the bill here is only MOSTLY dead.

Mostly dead as a juggernaut, that is. Or, to put it another way, mostly dead as a Baal fetish of ruthless destruction -- as its supporters liked to characterize it. (No, really. You could look it up. In my emails. With a thesaurus.)

[troubleinwinter]

42. Princess Juggernaut

doesn't turn up for me on Google, using 'HR-811 + juggernaut', except on the BBV board, the anti-811 folks using the phrase for the bill.

So maybe LS's story was all just a sparkling, glittering fairy tale.

[OnTheOtherHand]

43. or one of those "feelings" that people get

in the world capital of hype and bull. That's politics.

[troubleinwinter]

45. I am embarrassed.

Embarrassed to say that I actually wasted my time googling "HR-811 + unstoppable". I didn't come up with anything, but I came across this, which probably proves something or other:

[truckin]

18. Holt Bill Dead?

First it is unclear whether or not the bill is actually dead.

Secondly, if it is dead everyone seems to assume that voting activists are the cause of its demise and that any future bill will have greater teeth.

It is very possible, and likely in my opinion, that pressure from groups that do not want to spend money or have to deal with a more complicated DRE are the main drivers behind killing the bill. If this is the case, than any future bills could be even worse than the current proposal.

I believe that Holt is an honorable man and is forced to compromise to get as good a bill as he can through congress. This unfounded rumor about him trying to preserve DREs to benefit a voting machine company in his state is absurd.

[kpete]

19. lets find a way

together - to make sure that every vote counts and that WE THE PEOPLE are the counters.

I am sorry, Holt may be honorable, I do not like to judge, but we can and will do better then this particular bill. I honor those who have fought so hard to fight for our right to throw the bastards out. And, right now, every single day - these particular bastards have taken over and stolen so much of what belongs to us - WE THE PEOPLE. I for one am not prepared to compromise. I live in San Diego - and I still have no PROOF that my vote was counted. I WANT PROOF! Once and for all, starting with the vote, lets try and do THE BEST THAT WE CAN DO. Lets take our country back, kp

[Bill Bored]

22. No one has PROOF their vote was counted.

It's called the secret ballot.

But I get your drift.

So what's your plan?

[Cookie wookie]

46. So what's your plan to do better?

Got a bill up your sleeve? Got sponsors? Got votes in the senate and/or house? Or is the plan to get all the states to do the WE THE PEOPLE counters? How exactly will you go about it?

Or, is magic and fairy dust involved?

Oh, yeah, when are you getting this done. We have another presidential election coming up and sure would like to have some paper to count.

[troubleinwinter]

23. B.L.T.s vs. starving

The main drivers behind killing the bill are voting machine vendors, the GOP, some elections officials (lobbied by Bev Harris, who opposes any and all federal election reform), those who profit by continuing the status quo rather than making any real headway, those who follow-the-leader rather than actually reading the bill and thinking for themselves, and the "cut off one's nose to spite one's face" folks... I think of them as the B.L.T screamers:

A person is offered a tomato, lettuce and bread. The person screams, "I DON'T WANT THAT SHIT! I WANT A B.L.T!" When told that the lettuce and tomato does not prevent one from insisting upon bacon at the state or county, he screams, "WHOEVER GREW THOSE TOMATOES AND LETTUCE AND BAKED BREAD FOR FOUR YEARS AND TRIED TO PROVIDE ALL AMERICANS WITH THEM MUST BE CRIMINAL TRAITORS OPPOSING DEMOCRACY FOR NOT OFFERING BACON WITH IT!"

I have never seen anyone here speak against bacon (hand counted paper ballots).

But I sure have seen people rejecting any sort of tomato, lettuce and bread (voter-verifiable paper audit trail, manual audits and requirements for voting machine companies to provide source code).

One might wonder about those who kick lettuce, tomatoes and bread into the gutter and prevent others in need from having them.

I have very good reasons to believe Holt is an honorable man and wonder a great deal about those who attempt to smear him.

[Bill Bored]

25. Don't flatter yourself! If HR811 is DEAD, Election Officials Killed It!

I suppose they're all going to start HAND COUNTING PAPER BALLOTS now, huh?

And all those local election officials are going to resign from the EAC Standards Board which has about 150 of them on it?

And they will of course, eschew DREs even though they spent many millions on them?

And how about audits and recounts? They're going to do lots of audits and recounts over Thanksgiving, right?

Oh, and they're going to SAMPLE EVERY 10th ballot at each polling place too right? And the voters are going to let them see how they voted too!

Oh, and I almost forgot: Internet Voting! That's next along with all kinds of fancy schmancy wireless stuff.

Hey, I never said HR811 was any kind of panacea, but some folks can't even recognize their own BS!

[Land Shark]

31. Good point about not flattering, but don't flatter election officials either; Multiple causes

are apparent and one of those causes is clearly the efforts and opinions of citizens and activists.

To imply otherwise and suggest that only officials have power and not citizens who weigh in is both to deny that a properly functioning representative democracy exists even in part (as to this HR 811 issue) and then simultaneously to DO NOTHING about it.

That's not a very good position to put yourself in, Bill Bored. If I've assumed wrongly and you have indeed registered your objections with Congress for not paying sufficient attention to the citizen OPPONENTS of HR 811, I stand corrected, and I apologize.

[Bill Bored]

56. Apology accepted. nt

[troubleinwinter]

36. "Election Officials Killed It". Partly, but with Bev's 2,299 FAXes of encouragement

Here is Bev's Fax to those elections officials enlisting and encouraging their opposition to the bill:

Thank you, Nancy. I will mention here that Black Box Voting cannot do any more federal legislative (lobbying) faxes for quite a while, because there is a cap on such activities (we are allowed to do some lobbying, but it is capped in terms of time and financial investment, so we have to track it). We did do this second fax as you requested. Here is what I sent to 2,299 elections officials (we had one remove request last time, from a Vermont official):

Dear Elections Chief, March 30, 2007

This is the last communication from Black Box Voting on this matter, and I apologize for using your fax lines once again. I didn’t want to, but I believe this is important.

As you know, Black Box Voting and others have pointed out dangerous provisions in the Holt Bill: unfunded mandates, for equipment that does not yet exist, and shifting regulatory power over elections from your state to the federal government.

I thought you'd be interested to know that your efforts, and those of many citizens, have now caused the mark up of the Holt Bill to be DELAYED for at least two weeks. I have been told that congressional fax machines whirred all day long, gumming up the "fast track" on this bill.

I have learned that there is one additional step if you would like your comments to be memorialized into the congressional record. Though your faxes stopped the train (temporarily) it turns out that your faxed comments will not be entered into the record. If you feel strongly about this and want your opinions entered into the congressional record, here are the instructions:

The deadline is today (I know; like we have nothing else to do). The procedure is to e-mail your comments on the Holt Bill to: janelle.hu@...

The instructions we received are: (a) Submit a letter to the above e-mail address with your comments on the Holt Bill; (b) In the letter, explicitly request that your comments be included in the congressional record.

The House Administration (full committee) is still planning to mark up Rep.Holt's Voter Confidence and Increased Accessibility Act of 2007 (HR. 811), but the schedule has now been moved forward at least two weeks.

They’re saying, "Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good." We say: "Do not let the Congress be the enemy of democracy."

While the most pressing issue for many elections officials will be the unfunded mandate, the reason Black Box Voting believes this bill is the enemy of
democracy is that it contains a Trojan horse. While offering citizens the glittering promise of a paper trail, the hidden peril in the Holt Bill is that
it makes the EAC permanent and expands its powers. Thus, the Holt Bill transfers permanent control over the administration and equipment for elections
to the federal level.

Whether or not you like the current administration, please consider this: By making this change permanent, the Holt Bill requires us all to "trust"
forevermore that every single president will ppoint four benevolent cronies to tell you how to run your elections. The founders of this nation were thoughtful enough to provide for long-term stability by requiring dispersal of power, and
it was their wisdom that gave power over elections administration to the states. If the Holt Bill extension of the EAC is passed, at some point in our
future just one goofy president could install very inappropriate people to specify how elections will be run. But the way it is now, all 50 states would have to get goofy at once, and Black Box Voting believes that’s a good, stable safeguard. In fact, the only appropriate use of federal legislation over elections, we believe, is in the area of protecting civil rights – not federal meddling with local mechanics and procedures. The peril of EAC usurping state powers over elections: "Centralized executive power"

www.democracyfornewhampshire.com/node/view/3657

Thank you for your patience with receiving these two faxes from Black Box Voting.

Bev Harris – Director – Black Box Voting

She sees the status quo as "a good, stable safeguard" and federal legislation as "meddling".

Elections officials who are in love with their magic machines and don't want to be 'meddled with' must adore Bev.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

37. well, election reform makes more $$ than selling clinton cigars

Before Bev Harris hit the jackpot with Diebold, she was promoting Clinton
cigars. See the "El Presidente" Cigar.

http://web.archive.org/web/19991112034903/http://www.talion.com/cigar.htm

Pretty nasty thing for a little old grandmother in Washington.

[Cookie wookie]

47. None of the activists had anything to do with its demise ...

I suppose .... "We're just innocent little lambs who kept calling, emailing, phoning, faxing, and holding radio interviews saying KILL THE HOLT BILL, or the bill is FLAWED FLAWED FLAWED, but that wouldn't hurt the bill's chances at all .... we didn't have ANYTHING to do with it's demise, it was those mean old election officials" (that is if it is demised...)

[emlev]

26. UPDATE: Zetter says Not Dead Yet

"UPDATE: Holt's spokesman, Matt Dennis, got back to me this morning and says that the negotiations for the bill are still going on and that Holt's office still hopes to get the bill to the floor for a vote before the August recess."

It's in the same Zetter piece linked in the OP.

[Bill Bored]

27. Don't confuse us with the facts please. nt

[Land Shark]

48. Post that at wired.com blog and ask who the sources were before "updated" story

and then, after you do that, check the OP where it states that the blog is vague enough that there could still be a vote, and suggests everyone keep working. Then ask yourself where the ambiguity came from.

[troubleinwinter]

51. The little boy who cried "Wolf!".

Why would anyone "check the OP" which claims "Holt Bill is Dead" (with nothing to back it up), cites misinterpretations of the article's statements, and contains a vague and creepy seeming "THOSE who said the Holt bill was an unstoppable juggernaut that would inevitably pass because of various factors were perhaps not intentionally lying, but were clearly trading in propaganda of the most traditionally odious kind." (with no source, and without exactly explaining what the fuck the OP is trying to say. What? Huh? OK, a BBVer used the term 'juggernaut' regarding the bill. But I still don't understand what the meaning of this post is supposed to be.)?

Why would anyone bother to pour through the OP searching for some sort of meaningful detail when it is so full of nonsense?

Only small bits make any sense at all: "Same old stuff...hype and bull".

"ask yourself where the ambiguity came from". It seems that the OP found the article too abiguous, so the fake determination that the bill is "Dead" was asserted.

There are many options to help with PE these days. Try Google.

[Land Shark]

30. The Holt Bill is dead AS A JUGGERNAUT

and as I say in the OP, both sides should keep on truckin'

[eridani]

53. Now let's get busy fixing it n/t

[Bill Bored]

57. No need. The Fix is in!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=477327&mesg_id=477327