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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:46 PM
Original message
So I've come to a conclusion
Not an epic one, nothing earth-shattering, no profound insight, but instead something so simple that it gets missed in all the noise, like one of those drawings you stare at and see only formless lines and shapes, until it resolves itself into two candlesticks or 'Jesus' or whatever.

The conclusion: People are going to hear what they want to hear.

Not everyone, mind you. There are plenty of people walking around out there and in here whose minds can be changed when presented with a good argument or set of facts. Note our own Walt Star, who doubted the factual underpinnings of the whole election fraud movement, to the point that he actually sent messages to Congress telling them *not* to stand up on January 6th, until Barack Obama stood up and convinced Walt he was wrong. Hell, there are neo-cons walking the earth right now who have come to see the whole Iraq thing as a complete disaster.

But a lot of people will only hear what they want to hear, what agrees with what they already believe, or what fulfills an agenda.

Take, for example, the people who think Kerry was a coward for not standing up in Congress. Unambiguous comments describing House members who said they didn't want him there for tactical reasons, and the straightforward geometry of the tactics themselves - which correctly point out that Kerry's presence would have totally derailed everything, made it about him and not the election (yes, those are separate things), and would have handed a propaganda coup to the opposition - don't make a dent.

On that one, people hear what they want to hear.

Take, for example, the people who think Kerry isn't worth bothering with anymore because he failed to fulfill expectations per the Senate appearance described above. Offering the two main reasons for why this is a bad plan - a) He is going to be a Senator, and a powerful one, and ignoring him is just dumb; b) Unambiguous comments from Kery and his crew that election reform will be front and center on his list of priorities when he returns to Congress from incredibly important personal inspections of Baghdad, Mosul and Fallujah; bi) This is the guy who dismantled BCCI when that scumhole was on his front burner - don't make a dent.

People hear what they want to hear.

Flip that script, and examples abound. Some think that Kerry ran a great race and will be a perfect choice for President in 2008. Give them the facts - his campaign geeked on several collosal issues like the Swifties, the $87 million vote, the confusing Iraq statement given at the Grand Canyon, and the flip-flop thing for starters - and you will only piss them off.

What's that I hear? Oh yeah, exactly what I wanted to hear.

Or, for another example, when you try to talk to people who think Kerry played the election thing as well as he could - when you explain that his hairtrigger concession the morning after the election, before the Ohio election observers who saw all this crazy stuff happening were debriefed, was a behemoth tactical mistake and a betrayal of the people who'd busted their asses for him - you won't get anywhere.

The people who think exit polls are as reliable as tempered steel won't make a dent with people who think they are unreliable constructs.

Etc.

I think this simple conclusion came to me while I wateched people chewing on each other in here. Now, I know this message won't convince a lot of people - see above - but I think there will be a few who will see it my way. This won't reach the folks who come in here to start arguments because they don't have hobbies, or have rage issues, or because their mothers dressed them funny, or whatever. But that goes without saying, I guess.

I'm thinking that the energy spent in here battering up against people who are never going to hear what you are saying could be better spent locating people who can actually have their minds changed with facts. The best place to look for them is behind you. Turn away from the computer screen, walk through your home until you find the front door, open door, pass through door, close door, and there they are. Not all of them. But some of them.

I wear a big blue paperclip on my coat. As it is winter in Boston, whenever I am outside I am wearing that coat. That paperclip has begun more than two dozen conversations since I put it on.

"Dude, you know you got a paperclip on your coat?"

"Yup."

"Why do you have a paperclip on your coat?"

"It is a symbol of soldarity with those working to figure out why this past election was so screwed up."

"What do you mean?"

"Well, it's like this..."

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

As far as avioding the waste of energy in here, well, that requires developing the knack of recognizing the immovable object and not bothering to engage it. Try it. It's fun!
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. I was thinking much the same thing today.
Though, not in quite the same way ...

I read one quote by Khephra recently in which he said people here will always find something to fight about, if it's not Nader - it's baseball.


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SmileMaker Donating Member (346 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:04 PM
Original message
I think it's easy enough to ignore the negative ones
I have to say, I still enjoy fantasies of Kerry coming back from the Middle East and just letting loose with every bit of filth that he knows about the crowd that stole the election before the Inauguration. But, I FINALLY replaced my Kerry bumper sticker this week with BUSH CHEATED 04. Even if it is never proven that Bush did win more votes, he cheated during the campaign with psy-ops. Also, I bought some t-shirts from agitproperties.com before the election - One says "FAUX NEWS : we distort, you comply" and another one says "Got Allies?" and shows the US inside of the UN globe graphic and surrounded by bombs. I can't tell you how many startled looks I get from ordinary people - especially the Faux News shirt when I go around as a walking billboard!

I've committed to wearing these shirts as often as possible. Also, good to give my money to people that make shirts with those messages.

Will - you are so positive. Please find a way to ignore the bitterness. It's unhealthy, even though we all have a right to mourn. I say lets get creative with all that we've learned!

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SmileMaker Donating Member (346 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. deleted
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 07:05 PM by SmileMaker
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. Not much anyone can answer to this.
You could win "threadkiller" in the lounge with this one.
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. You have discovered one of those frustrating truths about human psychology
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 07:03 PM by BrklynLiberal
I remember studying social psychology in college.
Two factors come into play here.
One of them is that cognitive dissonance that everyone is always blabbing about...and the other I think is sort of a corollary of it. People tend not to listen to people discussing ideas that they do not agree with, especially if they would truly threaten their core beliefs. The more they have invested in those beliefs, the stronger they will fight to maintain those beliefs, no matter how logical and rational your proof of their error. It is like trying to dissuade someone from their religious faith. They say it is true just because they believe it is true.
It is a sad and disturbing trait of the human animal...particularly these days. Closed mindedness...on both sides, seems to be the order of the day.
I certainly have no answers. Do we need those "de-programmers" that parents used to rescue their children from sects in the 60's?
Guess the only thing one can hope for is some sort of epiphany to occur in the life of someone. Short of that I am not sure one can change the mind of one who is strongly invested in one way of thinking.
I also wear the blue paperclip, and have only had a couple of conversations so far...but I live in NYC and my encounters have been with people who already agree with me.
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MadAsHellNewYorker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. As usual Mr. Pitt, great post.
You couldn't have nailed it more precisely.

Thanks for always writing something worthwhile.
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greenmutha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
5. Some of us are directing our energies in a positive way
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liam97 Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. unfortunately Will
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 07:11 PM by liam97
did want to hear Kerry say he was against the war or that he wanted to find out want went wrong in Ohio and that he didn't care how the media paints it.

I didn't hear what I wanted to hear.


I take your point, but most people here are enraged by the facts as far as I can tell..

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VioletLake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
7. Senseless drivel as usual, Mr. Pitt. Shame on you, sir.
Just kidding! :D

But I do have one question: what should we do when we're done shampooing all the people around us?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Get them blue paperclips to wear
so they can shampoo the people around them. We're in this for the long haul. Nothing is going to happen of substance in the next several weeks...but every great social movement in history began with a conversation.
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VioletLake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
19. Almost everyone I know is already on board.
Democrats rule where I live.

I've been working on my brother in law, (slowly and carefully since I'm not allowed to talk politics around my family anymore). lol
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #8
50. Every great social movement had a mainstream media
that held politicians accountable.

See the difference?
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Rilly?
The Enlightenment?

Christianity?

The Reformation?

The Underground Railroad?

Which TV stations did those have shilling for them?

Or should I just not bother?
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. Zing -- good one, Will...
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 10:00 PM by Blue_In_AK
And I'm proud to say that my Quaker ancestors in O-hi-o were very active with the Underground Railroad. I wish I could talk to them now to see exactly how they pulled that off lacking a media source.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #55
81. Add Civil Rights Movement to your list, Will.
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Darknyte7 Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #50
110. LMAO!
Thanks! I needed that laugh...

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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. you made me giggle
:)
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Give them a conditioning treatment, of course
----------------------------------------------------------
Save our country one town, county, and state at a time!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm#...
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
9. The other side of the coin
People say whatever they heard last. I'll let you write that up. But it occured to me yesterday when a Christian friend was over and rambling from political view to political view, usually views that were exact opposites. So when one ventures out of here, don't think you've won them over just because they're shaking their heads in agreement. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
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katinmn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
10. yes, we're preaching to the choir in here.
They need to hear it out there.
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truthpusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. Selective Listening...
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 07:10 PM by truthpusher
(Yes people do hear what they want to hear. Here's a little something I found on selective listening - Those of you who also practice selective reading, may want to stop here.)

"Filters That Affect Listening"

"Your ability to listen actively can be stymied by many things. Two of the most powerful are your emotional and mental filters. For the most part, these barriers were formed during your childhood, and they're destined to stick with you until you decide to get rid of them. As part of your long-term mindset, they filter the present through your past, including your personal values and your life experiences.

Contrast that with your current mindset, which immediately filters the information you receive while communicating with another person. Several factors affect your current mindset, including your expectations, your present personal relationships or an event that has happened right before your conversation. Here are four of the most common immediate filters and how to overcome
them.

Your expectations concerning the topic, speaker or situation. If you tend to have negative expectations about something, such as a speaker who's always too long-winded or a meeting that's always boring, then they'll probably come true. Your expectations can create a self-fulfilling prophesy. To keep your expectations in check, try these two techniques. First, before going to your next speech or meeting, make a list of all your expectations. That way, you'll be aware of the barriers that might keep you from listening actively and effectively. Second, anticipate your reactions to particular ideas or situations. This can be helpful if you have difficulty communicating in certain situations or if you expect to hear information that will make you uncomfortable.

Your relationship with your boss, co-workers or those you manage. There are two basic rules when it comes to expectations and relationships. The first is: The more you dislike a person, the harder it is to listen to him or her objectively. The second is: The more you like a person, the harder it is to actively listen to him or her objectively. In both cases, the relationship colors your communication. Try to set aside your feelings and then actively and objectively listen.

Your present personal situation. If your personal life is generally positive, then you'll tend to see the rest of the world in a positive light. If things aren't going so well for you, then your filters may be more negative. Although it's difficult, try to keep your personal and professional lives separate. For instance, if you commute to work, use that time to leave your personal life behind. Also try "self-talk." Tell yourself what a wonderful employee you are despite the fact that your personal life maybe in turmoil. Consider writing about your problems in a diary or talking to a trusted friend who's a good listener. As a final resort, seek help from a professional.

How your immediate emotional mindset affects a communication situation. It's natural to get upset or angry about something negative that's just happened to you. This kind of emotional baggage gets in the way of active listening. To detach yourself from a previous situation, count to 10 and breathe deeply, take a coffee break, go for a short walk or do something that doesn't require a lot of concentration, such as filing or sorting the mail.

While it's easy to identify what upset you a few minutes ago, it's much harder to pinpoint your long-term filters. In many cases they're so much a part of you that you aren't even aware of them. These filters are formed as a result of your values, culture, social and economic status, religious upbringing, educational background, the place you were born and raised, etc. To deal with these, ask yourself the following questions:

Does the speaker remind you of someone from your past because of his or her actions, tone of voice or word choices?

Is that recollection triggering your response?

Does the situation remind you of a similar one in the past?

Is your reaction based on a conflict of personal, religious, political or philosophical values? What's causing the conflict?

Is your reaction driven by a specific prejudice or bias?

The more you understand the source of your long-term filters, the better you'll be able to empathetically and non judgmentally listen to those with whom you disagree."

http://breeze.ifas.ufl.edu/3030/aee3030.html
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cindyw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:12 PM
Response to Original message
15. There are those who support Gore and think he fought more than Kerry, yet
when Gore conceded.. he was done, in hiding and said not a peep for 2 years. But Kerry has been continuing to communicate with his supporters, has gone right back to work and has even continued to hit Bush hard right where it hurts. We all hoped for a shadow president after Gore won the popular vote and got nothing. Yet here is Kerry traveling to Iraq, talking to the troops and overseeing a new election in Palestine. Doing just what the President cares not to do. Kerry has gone much further than Gore did and yet he is worse to some.

I can see Kerry's faults, but I still think he is just what the world needs right now. I will also not participate in this circular firing squad ritual that happens after every election.

The Dems in Congress and Kerry are making me proud right now.
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Democrat Dragon Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. An overturned election could have only been acomplised four ways:
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 07:29 PM by Democrat Dragon
#1 the smoking gun
Kenneth Blackwell hid or destroyed it

#2 the recount
recount was fixed, it was too late for another recount. Again, Kenneth Blacksick may have deliberately delayed the certification.

#3 the uncounted ballots
Arenbeck seemsed to be absent last week for this.

#4 Ukriane-style protests
I was hpoing for this, but we all know that BushCo. has deaf ears on mass-scale protests. HOWEVER, a mass scale protest could have brought the whistleblower, who may have has the smoking gun to light. This would have required a Kerry an unconcession. But CMW could have chosen to totally ignore it, and SCOTUS may interfere.

Kenneth Whitesick needs to go prison :mad:

so maybe we should bash Kerry so much.
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cindyw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. Do you mean "not" bash so much or that we should.
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Democrat Dragon Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #36
73. sorry for the error
it should read "Maybe we shouldn't bash Kerry so much"
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Eye_on_prize Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
76. you don't need to make Gore a whipping boy here. i mean, i agree with
most of what you say, except -- unlike Kerry -- Gore didn't have a comfortable US Senate seat to return to. And I hear he's been quite active the past few years, esp. with developing progressive media projects.

I was touched by Kerry's being with the troops on Jan6th, and unlike some here, do not hold that against him at all. Let's not tear down one to build up another tho.
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cindyw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #76
126. I wasn't tearing down Gore. I was one of the many who supported
his candidacy until he bowed out. I am just hearing a lot of dissatisfaction of Kerry from some who support Gore and I was trying to point out that Kerry is doing more than Gore in the immediate aftermath. I also understand why gore went underground.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #15
82. Can't wait to hear what Kerry has to say when he comes back !
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Philly Buster Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #82
102. When is JFK returning?
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MissBrooks Donating Member (614 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #82
124. He probably won't say anything...
He'll go back to living his life and leave the rest of us sitting here wondering why he deserted us.

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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
101. Excellent post, cindyw. Your points are well taken.
Let's see what Kerry does in the Senate. I am very much pleased and encouraged that he has been acting as a "shadow president" and look forward to his return to the Senate.
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fearnobush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
16. Will I am guilty at taking a wack or two at Kerry for not fighting.
However, those feelings were driven purely by my emotions of helplessness and frustration over what I really knew all along since Jan 20th 2001 - that the fix was in all along and there was nothing we could do about it but try to overwhelm it with a big +5% margin. Even if Kerry contested, un-conceded, never conceded, the SCOTUS and the GOP owned congress would easily defeat it and just appoint Bush just like they did in 2000.

Once I came to this realization, I knew Kerry did the right thing even though I am not happy with it. It's too easy to steal, add and remove votes these days. Jan 6th has proved, we can make a difference.

PS still have my Kerry sticker on the truck.
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m.standridge Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. I've felt disillusioned with him, too
for seeming to concede too soon.
He was just acting on data as it came in, though--at least, I think that explains MOST of it. I'm not sure it explains all of it. Part of it, was maybe he was just tired of just, you know (as someone posted elsewhere at DU earlier today), just busting his a--- for nothing. You know?
I mean, it's like, you know, you just kill yourself, then you see them getting it so down to the wire, they can cover and delay and come up with something to put Bush over anyway.

Now we have some numbers, out in public, to present. Professor Phillips has finally posted the numbers, enough numbers to really get this taken seriously. But it seems too late. These numbers, it's so hard to get them all that fast. They trickle in. In the meantime, that constant refrain "While this alone won't turn the election around" keeps coming in. Finally, you don't HAVE to say that anymore. It's all adding up to a Kerry win in Ohio. Finally, the numbers are showing this. If we could get some action now, we have the numbers for it.
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buzzard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:13 PM
Original message
People often believe in the infallibility of whatever ideology they hold.
It takes someone with an inquisitive mind and critical thinking skills to dig through all the information and come to their own conclusions, it is much easier to just believe what you are told by your Party, or parents or peers or church. You get the drift. *s himself is a classic example of someone who doesn't think too much.
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
17. Amen to that!
hopefully the events of the last few months have focused our considerable energy on Our New Pro-Democracy Projects we've all signed up for on Armhein's thread. i know i've got some irons in the fire (in addition to planning the garden and other spring projects like getting a job).

so, it's gonna be great to start seeing threads promoting cool stuff we are doing. in the meantime, we need to support Dean getting in the DNC.

i'm pretty pumped about The Doctor running against that anti-choice crackerass whatshisname. I sent Dean some money and, later ordered my very own "I had an abortion" t-shirt from Clamor Magazine. See link below.

http://www.clamormagazine.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc ?

Today was a good day.
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Ken065 Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
18. You are a very wise man...
and are able to articulate your point of view clearly and concisely. Glad you're on this side.

But I must have missed the blue paperclip thread/idea. Interesting conversation starter. I'll try it.
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impeachthescoundrel Donating Member (395 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
20. You are absolutely right
Blue paperclip on your coat, hmmmm...

I mostly lurk here. Sometimes I read 6 or 8 hours a day. (This looks good;I'll read it.) And all I do is absorb information which is a wonderful thing. So I am not uninformed by any means.

Sometimes I will answer a post. Some things move me more than others.

But the Kerry bashing is not a part of my personality. My own sister with two young adult sons did not seem to get John's message. Granted she has three kids at home and I have none at home so I have a greater window to pay attention to these things. I cannot imagine that she would ever vote for*.

I love John Kerry. He reminds me of what the Democratic party is all about. When he speaks, I feel good about what could happen to our nation. I have hope. Of course these are only my opinions. I imagine a lot of people on this board are young and impulsive, so I try not to blame them.

I love the Democratic party and John Kerry. I despise and loathe George Bush and his whole family and everything the bunch of hypocritical liars stand for. That is my opinion. John Kerry is a genius.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
21. 20 some-odd replys and...
no buts, Jan 20ths?, Kerry-bashes, etc.

Maybe you're getting through to folk, Will. :)
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
22. I think you have a great article here - I would love to see something like
this in the newspaper. How come you are not syndicated? I think you are an exceptionally talented writer. I'm sincere, not blowing smoke and not smoking my socks.

Most of the people outside my front door are blind, non-thinking conservatives (I live in Alabama). You must know it's rare to find someone who can think on their own, without the approval of their "group". It really does have something to do with courage, because most of the time you find yourself challenging conventional wisdom! At least that has been my personal experience. I have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out why people accept information that "FITS" into their world view, and reject the rest as conspiracy theory.

I have also tried very hard to figure out just what does it take to "get through" to folks. I'm a MSW (Masters level Social Worker) and we were trained about such things as world view, critical thinking, maturity, emotional development, black and white thinkers, etc. It takes critical mass, to move minds. It will take all of us educating the public on election reform. And we will have to work hard, because the average Joe "thinks" something like that could never happen here. And if it did, THEY WOULD HEAR ABOUT IT ON CNN!!!! :yourock:
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keepthemhonest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
23. will it's
listening of convenience and everything else is just blocked out.For example,when you call a child to come to dinner and they don't hear you,but if you say come on we're going to go get icecream,that gets there attention every time.adults do this to only they usaully give an attempt to answer.
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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:30 PM
Response to Original message
25. Kerry bailed. Just 12hrs after Edwards vowed to count every vote
sorry, Will.....but that looks real bad.
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m.standridge Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. but how do you MAKE the suckers count them? Not a CHANCE!
And you're a "sore loser" for suggesting such a thing.

Again, the logical thing:
what's the point of holding an election if you're not going to count the votes?
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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. You know...he disappeared and could have utilized the moment
to inform, update, explain...keep 51% of the population engaged. Dag, keep the media engaged!

Sure, we couldnt do a thing about Diebold's countless recount, anyway. But, honestly, why the hell did Kerry even bother to run for office? Did he think they wouldnt rig the machines, they'd play fair?

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m.standridge Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. wel.l, and being to the "left" of Kennedy, he'd be a super-skeptic
a super-realist, about how easy it would be to get something done. Did he allow himself to get idealistic, when his supporters seemed so enthusiastic? And the way the pre-election polls were so back and forth, it seemed it should get pretty close, there in Ohio. Close enough to hire on all those lawywers.
Then, on election night, in about an hour, it all turned around, just all at once, there in Ohio. It was all on Ohio. And he seemed to be getting beaten badly there, when polls were suggesting he was winning it.
Still, surely he was prepared, on some level, for this kind of thing. Surely he knew what this bunch was capable of. Surely he wouldn't have gotten so emotionally blown away.
I don't know. Did something fall through in Ohio--some ability to catch something, prevent something, the falling through of which, would make it hopeless? And he didn't know this, for sure, until those same hours when they were trying to determine how many Provisionals there were? What would that something have been? Data stolen from a computer--perhaps a clarification of what had been stolen in Toledo? Or some place else? Or was it just the general way, that so many states, besides Ohio, had fallen through? "Why am I not more popular than this?" Was he just THAT committed to the Popular vote lead idea?




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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
34. Thank you for proving my point
and missing the point of the thread.

;)
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OKthatsIT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #34
120. I got your point Will...but he still used bad judgement
so no one's perfect...you cant be everything for everybody.

He should have NEVER used WAR to make his point. But Kennedy told him he could ensnare Bush by the time the campaign heated up, so Kerry proclaimed his conditional support for the 'INVASION'.

That wasnt clever.

Playing politics with human lives isnt acceptable...not without absolute cause. And, WE ALL KNEW there were no WMD. We all knew Bush had his own agenda to get the oil. Some things are that simple and obvious, Will.

BUT..when Clinton advised Kerry to reject Gay civil rights/civil unions altogether from the the Dem Platform...and Kerry said, "I wont do that", I realized how difficult it must be to be all things to all people.

Clinton lost my respect, for good.
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JD Lau Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
26. Paperclip: What color blue....light blue, dark blue...
or does it matter?

I haven't come up with anything yet to take the place of my Kerry/Edwards button, which I just took off my coat yesterday.

JD
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #26
35. Robin's egg will do
:)
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rdmccur Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
27. Yeah, another
name for this phenomena (may be more specific in some ways) is 'cognitive dissonance'; very common with people with strong beliefs
in otherwise problematical frameworks (almost all of us fit this to some degree). Accounts for why more than a small portion of the population voted for *.
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m.standridge Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. which might be another argument
on top of the data from pre-election polls, that Kerry won in the Electoral College, not the Popular vote. But that still means he won, byt the rules W. reinforced last time.
The DNC may not be wild about the idea, though. That could explain why only one Senator stood up. Or at least partially explain it.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
46. Most, if not all of us have had the into to social psychology
...which, by the way, I loved and excelled in.

But i want to hear from political psycholgists..please weigh in!!
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
53. The only belief I have is that *is corrupt as all get out
I believe this strongly, and further there is emprical evidence to prove it. am I cognitively dissonant?

Please.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
30. Amen to that here, too
People have opinions. That's a good thing. The fact that DU has become so divided, and is constantly attacking their own is a bad thing. It's not at all productive, and takes away from what needs to be done. I get so encouraged sometimes, then read a few threads and get so discouraged. I argue with people I don't agree with, yes. I can't help it. Particularly the "Kerry bashing" threads. Mostly I try to stay away from them, but sometimes the heading is misleading.

That said, I know I'm wasting my time when I do it. We need to be united, to know who our enemies are, and who we really need to bash. I think it was proven on January 6th that we could indeed accomplish something. It was a baby step, but a positive.

I thank you for your post William Pitt. From now on, I'm going to do my best to stick with the positive, optimistic, get something done threads.
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nmoliver Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
32. The Kerry situation isn't black and white
This interpretation (by Will and many others) of Kerry's behavior is certainly not unreasonable. But there are other ways to look at it. We have had leaders who have fought to the end for every vote. The Ukraine opposition leader is one; Gregoire was another.

Cobb and the Greens maintained that Kerry was undermining their recount efforts, and that the court challenges would have proceeded much more quickly if Kerry had been explicitly behind them.

Kerry also held back LOTS of money from these efforts, which we all had to fork up again.

I don't have a clear opinion in either direction - Will, you could be right here. It's a matter of interpretation, not fact, there's a lot of grey here, and I wouldn't insist that people who are unsure of this take on Kerry's behavior are just being stubborn and closed-minded.

As for me, I'd sooner see Conyers, Jackson, Tubbs or Boxer, or any of the other 31 Congresspeople, as my nominee for 2008, rather than Kerry. It's the first question I would ask them. Where were you on January 6, 2005?
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liam97 Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. NMOliver, very well said
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IndyPriest Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
33. It's a little more complex than that.
Selective listening? For sure. But there are also missing pieces of information which create holes for people to fill. People's need for a complete story is huge, and lacking one we'll make one up -- out of our hopes, dreams, fears, whatever.

No one actually KNOWS what Kerry will do when he gets back. So we project: make up stories.

No one actually knows if Kerry knows what we know. We can surmise he knows many more things than we know. But we don't know, for example, if he knows what TIA knows about the polls. Cam's interview was abmiguous. He seems to know there were problems with computers and tabulators. Does he know how big those problems were? If he does, why would he talk about "Bush's win of 3.5 million votes?" He's a lawyer; why wouldn't he at least say "Bush's APPARENT win..., or SUPPOSED win?"

No one actually knows the degree to which Kerry backed Arnebeck's suit(s). There are interesting tidbits of info that can be read more than one way.

No one knows exactly who's leading, or going to lead, the charge against fraud, or what our role can/could be in it.

We could go on. The simple point: there are many missing pieces of crucial info. Some days it seems we're reading tea leaves. Most of us don't have access to interview, depose, pin down those we want info from. So we jump to those who do have that kind of access: you, Arnebeck, Conyers (look at the extraordinary outpouring of gratitude from people on this forum for him). Would it be wise and good to slow down, let good people do their work, wait and support where we can? Sure. But then we hear that OUR activism actually helped push through an historic contest of the election in Congress. Should we be doing more of something like that? On what issues? When? How? Maybe we DON'T have to sit supportively and wait. Etc..

So: selective listening? Sure. But there's more to it than that. We don't have the story. So, we make up it up. It's a tough situaton, an almost impossible situation, to be in otherwise.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
37. What if I acknowledge he made some mistakes AND still want him in 2008
I still want my flawed candidate to be president someday. Not the greatest campaigner perhaps, but I still think he'd make a good president.

Even if I can't have that, I do want to support whatever good thing he may come up with. And that goes for all the Dems and Progressives. I have all of their backs.

I do wish that people could see both that he was flawed, but not rewrite history and try to erase what he did do right, like the debates that brought many voluteers into Kerry HQ. I don't mean to imply Kerry was perfect when I defend, just that he isn't the ogre some try to make him. I'd like to meet somewhere in the middle. I'm afraid I match the tone of the person I'm rebutting. I'm not perfect either.

Would anyone have played this exactly right, I wonder? It would be asking alot. And who would decide if he played it right. It would depend on what you wanted. The Dean folk would want fire, others would want tactical, some don't care as long as there is a win involved.

I guess that's the price of not being in power. The other side can screw up royally on a daily basis, and it doesn't seem to matter much. Our side has to be near perfect. Even then, perhaps we wouldn't get anywhere. If no one is watching via the MSM, no one will know you've played it perfectly.

Thanks for your daily wisdom, Mr. Pitt. I look forward to the sanity oasis.
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
38. Ah, the "blue paperclip"..That was a brilliant idea!
It has started the same conversation for me. I work in many different locations and have just moved on to another. I hope to have a few more "paper clip" conversations soon!
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
41. Have a big ugly ass orange piece of tape on my coat...sometimes I stick
it on my ass, but it gets attention! And when I hit a brick wall I move on, no sense running a good horse to death.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
42. Okay, except WHY DIDN'T THEY HEAD THIS OFF AT THE PASS?
Why when all of these people were shouting about FRAUD and the POTENTIAL FOR FRAUD going into this election for YEARS didn't they LISTEN and deploy persons who could actually do something to STOP IT or PROVE IT?

For God's sake, if I knew about it, and my fiance knew about it, and we knew "the machines" were a huge threat, not to mention that Howard Dean went on TV with Bev and DEMONSTRATED it, and that there was a WIDELY REPORTED, DELIBERATE PLAN TO SUPPRESS VOTERS why didn't THEY DO SOMETHING TO STOP THIS?
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m.standridge Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. what I, for one, thought
was that a pattern of the GOP winning the White House, with the Democrats having or winning control of at least one house of Congress, would maintain. I mean, God, they had that, even in 1984, when there was a landslide of some kind.
There were at least 7 Senate races that went south, during the same period of time, early a.m. 11/3, when the Presidential came to focus on Ohio and the Popular vote lead disappeared.
It was when the Congress was lost--yet again--that I began to realize we were dealing with a real threat to democracy. The GOP had all three branches--if they won the White House. All three.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. Exactly
I'm sorry, but I'm feeling really patronized by Will's post. Progress is not being made. The second stolen election by the same guy and I should feel emboldened that a handful of reps and one senator publicly made the point and election reform is on the way??

C'mon, man. People are fucking dying. People are kiling and being killed and the democratic party has been all but marginalized.

Paper clips aint gonna cut it. In the sixties when folks actually got outraged when they saw the outrageous, they marched in the streets. Now, whn half a million march in the streets, it's blown off buy the bought and sold media. We have every right here in DU and anywhere else to be frustrated, bitchy and obnoxious.

Nothing changes if nothing changes. all things are subject to change.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #42
96. I don't want to be contentious but you are right Carolab. I with friends
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 05:54 AM by OmmmSweetOmmm
saw this coming and nothing was done to head it off at the pass. Bills were allowed to die in the Senate, and Kerry didn't actively support them. He, the DNC or 527s should have flooded the airwaves warning of the dangers of electronic voting. The average American was left in the dark about the pitfalls.

Then Kerry folded in the blink of an eye even though there was on election day reports of massive vote problems pouring in.

I believe he took a dive. I also think that the American people have to wake up to the fact that our government is not ours. That is carefully manipulated to give those in power the win every time. Meaningful election reform has an iceberg's chance in hell to take place as long as the media remains treasonous, keeping the populace happily sated on the latest Hollywood break-up.

Look at the way the wind is blowing when there is a roll call on the votes for the butcher Gonzales. You will see who on the Dem side is in collusion with the Sociopath and his band of Lunatics.

Until we face this truth, and really know what we are dealing with, change cannot be made.

We also need tons of money to wake-up people via the boob tube as that is where most people get their info from. Loads of commercials showing what happened to their vote. They just don't have a clue now, and maybe if the get riled up, we have a chance.
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m.standridge Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #96
128. this list of things is--very difficult to answer and
very disillusioning. The only thing I can deal with thinking right now, if I'm to keep fighting for the Dems on this at all, is that no one, or few, comprehended the whole thing or its implications or how soon or suddenly it would impact on the election system.

Ordinary people-- their minds just don't run like this. We give it a few minutes of thought before going to other things.

Who could think out all those terrorist attacks, or all those surprise attacks that have led to the numerous wars over the years? Ordinary people don't plan those things, or anticipate those things.

Similarly, rigging elections. What ordinary people sit down and plan how to rig elections? Or anticipate that there are people doing that?



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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #42
109. Power begets power...Very difficult to disrupt power in a stronghold
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m.standridge Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #109
129. well, Ohio has long been GOP-dominated
I kept trying to think, aren't there some other states that have more Democratic-oriented state gov'ts, where it was close, that would add up to the number of Electoral votes Kerry needed?
There seem to be some:
Iowa (7 Electoral votes)
New Mexico (5 Electoral votes)
Colorado (GOP-dominated maybe?) (9 Electoral votes)
Arkansas (6 Electoral votes)

Kerry had leads in all those before the election. It was also looking close in Newada (5 Electoral votes--but maybe GOP-dominated?). (Then, of course, Florida, 27 Electoral votes, though I think FL was GOP-dominated this time, if it wasn't last time).
Maybe there weren't enough questionable ballots, or maybe there wasn't enough in the way of funny-looking stats in those states, to justify looking at them or spending money, etc. But it wouldn't have cost all that much, given the tens of millions the Kerry campaign had left over. And, with Democratic-oriented state governments, would there have been as much resistance and flack as in OH?
Maybe it could have gone more quickly.
Too late now.




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m.standridge Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. now, we get four more years
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starmaker Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
43. I Showed UP
until we showed up
from 11/3 till 12/12 till 1/6
i figure most people don't know what happened on 1/6/5
this civil rights movement has been born and we have to educate
we have good websites of truth unknown to many

i am a 51er
all we do is make a sign and show up
wear orange and have info to inform
we know that even small #'s holding signs
gets noticed
walk around the block talk to people
local media
we must empower the individual through education

we must put the disparity between the top and bottom
in perspective to the left and right divide

the floor has been cracked the truth will come out
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MadLinguist Donating Member (167 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
44. Dude, my mother dressed me in Blue Paperclips
And, trust me, nobody ever asked me anything about it. Fact is, I wish you'd leave her out of this. When I want to start a conversation with people, I ask THEM about the paperclip or brown shoes, or bald head they're wearing. It's a little trick I learned from the strong desire to deflect attention away from myself (what with the paperclip trousers and all). That way, I then earn the right to introduce some of my ideas. But hey, everybody has their own devices. Personally I come here to see whole beehive. There's swarms in all directions, and I've learned from each of them. I don't really think you believe we are all wasting our time here, or that you you waste your time when you post, or you would have really stayed away. You like it here, paperclip. Make nice.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
47. I'd still like to know whether or not you believe the election was stolen
You do realize that most of us do believe this with every cell in our bodies, right? And we didn't get there by reading tea leaves, we looked at all the circumstantial evidence, and God knows there's a plethora of it, and as was the case with the 2000 election and Iraq/911/WMD and Bush's corporate welfare agenda, our belief that we were being had was justified. And I think that many of us are justified now in believing what we see; we've been had. Again. And, we've been let down by those who represent us. That goes for most of the Senate, the House and above all the Media, who are supposed to expose the powerful for the world to see, not portray the powerful as they would like to be portrayed.
Some of us are profoundly affected by the last four years; financially, emotionally, physically and spiritually. A lot of us don't feel we can afford another four years as opposed to those with jobs who actually benefit from insane presidents in the US of A. Like journalsits, or politicians with job security. Don't take that the wrong way, I'd give my left arm to be a journalist in these times.
And no offense, Will, but your perspective is limited to your occupation and your privileged access to inside information. Some of us have mouths to feed and are truly frightened at what the future holds for our children. Some of us can't afford another four years of being pre-occupied with politics at the expense of time spent with our kids, or actually enjoying a hobby or two. You of all people should know how time consuming it is to keep informed. For those of us with jobs that don't involve politics, it's an extra 1-2 hours a day just to keep up with all the changes going on.

There is more than one good fight in this showdown. There are many, but all of them lead to one thing: getting the most illigitimate and corrupt president this country has ever known out of the the WH.

Most of us call it as we see it, and each of us has our own legitimate perspective which, IMO, is simply not open for disparagement or criticism. Not even by you.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #47
60. This is a strange, strange post.
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 10:11 PM by WilliamPitt
You do realize that most of us do believe this with every cell in our bodies, right? And we didn't get there by reading tea leaves, we looked at all the circumstantial evidence, and God knows there's a plethora of it, and as was the case with the 2000 election and Iraq/911/WMD and Bush's corporate welfare agenda, our belief that we were being had was justified.

I love it when people say 'we' around here. I always ask if they have a mouse in their pocket or something. ;)

"We looked at all the circumstantial evidence" is precisely the reason why I grind my teeth when people demand that Kerry act and act now. Circumstantial evidence doesn't cut it in a courtroom. Circumstantial evidence is the reason why Thursday's objection was political theater instead of actual action.

If circumstantial evidence is all we have, as you seem to state, then we had better game up for a,long haul, because we are going to need actual firm evidence before we move the pile. That is why I have been reporting on Conyers, Bonifaz, Cobb, Badnarik and Kerry as they progress in their investigations and legal challenges.

And I think that many of us are justified now in believing what we see; we've been had. Again. And, we've been let down by those who represent us. That goes for most of the Senate, the House and above all the Media, who are supposed to expose the powerful for the world to see, not portray the powerful as they would like to be portrayed.

You're not telling me anything I don't know.

Some of us are profoundly affected by the last four years; financially, emotionally, physically and spiritually. A lot of us don't feel we can afford another four years as opposed to those with jobs who actually benefit from insane presidents in the US of A. Like journalsits, or politicians with job security.

Two things, fellow.

1) I have been profoundly affected by the last four years. I have killed myself - financially, spiritually, mentally, physically - to get the truth out there. I wrote a book on Iraq (for which I did not make a dime because the publisher went bankrupt after printing too many books which we then gave away) in which I hung my balls way out in the wind on, and then traveled 150,000 miles give or take to just about every Red State in the country to try and give people the truth. In the process I lost a lot of money, an eight-year relationship, and a lot of friends who slipped away while I was working in this coal mine. I answer letters, emails and phone calls every day from the mothers of dead soldiers.

2) How fucking DARE you condescend to say that I have a profit motive in Bush being in that office? How fucking DARE you? You think I have job security? I work for a bloody website. I don't know how long you've been on the planet, friend, but if you were alive and breathing in the mid-to-late 1990s, you'd know that web work is here today and gone tomorrow. I make enough to live on, and that's about it.

Don't take that the wrong way, I'd give my left arm to be a journalist in these times.

Yeah right. I took it exactly trhe way you meant it, so spare me the backpedaling. If you're going to say things like that, have the courage to stand by your words.

And no offense, Will, but your perspective is limited to your occupation and your privileged access to inside information.

That's the confusing part. My occupation which is based on collecting and disbursing data, and my ability to talk to people who are involved in these things on the inside, *limits* my perspective?

Some of us have mouths to feed and are truly frightened at what the future holds for our children. Some of us can't afford another four years of being pre-occupied with politics at the expense of time spent with our kids, or actually enjoying a hobby or two.

Why do you think I do this. Oh, right, I forgot. You think I do this to get rich, and that I enjoy having George around. Or something.

You of all people should know how time consuming it is to keep informed. For those of us with jobs that don't involve politics, it's an extra 1-2 hours a day just to keep up with all the changes going on.

Which, again, is why we do what we do, when we're not masturbating with thousand-dollar bills and tearing down old-growth forests with our Humvees thanks to all the money we're making because we love having George around.

There is more than one good fight in this showdown. There are many, but all of them lead to one thing: getting the most illigitimate and corrupt president this country has ever known out of the the WH.

Good. Step #1 in that mission is to not shit on your allies.

Most of us call it as we see it, and each of us has our own legitimate perspective which, IMO, is simply not open for disparagement or criticism. Not even by you.

At what point did I disparage you or anyone? If anything, I only disparaged the people who come here to fight just for the sake of fighting. If anyone has done any disparaging in this thread, it has been you.

To answer youer opening question, which had nothing to do with the rest of your confusing screed: Yes, I believe there was fraud. I believe that fraud involved a) Computer firms rigging machines in Ohio to cover their asses, so they didn't get their contracts contested for placing faulty machines in use; b) Nefarious an illegal behavior on the part of GOP operatives and friends within the e-machine private sector; c) Both.
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. Aren't you being a little harsh?
With all due respect, It is hard to know who you are referring to here:
"...the energy spent in here battering up against people who are never going to hear what you are saying could be better spent locating people who can actually have their minds changed with facts...Turn away from the computer screen, walk through your home until you find the front door, open door, pass through door, close door, and there they are. Not all of them. But some of them.


Perhaps this person is trying to say that many of us are doing what we can with the time and resources available to us, and dont need to be talked down to.

I understand your frustration. I feel it too, because I have been doing WAY more than most everyone I know, to educate myself, pass my findings on to others, pressure politicians and media, protest, and design, print and distribute fliers. But not all of us can work on this full time, or even half time. And just because they aren't in the right place at the right time, as you are, does not mean they care less than you, or do nothing but sit here and bitch.
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m.standridge Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. well, the "we" thing
reminds me of those "caustic" comments I used to hear some military veterans say about Clinton, a non-veteran, as Commander-in-Chief, when he'd talk about "we" in the context of military maneuvers in Bosnia or Kosovo.
I mean, Clinton-ites can't--or couldn't--often stand those folks.
But driving wedges into our own base isn't the answer.
If someone is trying to say "we," why not let them?
What's wrong with that?
We're all poor people, or struggling people, or probably often with a lot of pain, emotional or even physical, in our lives. Otherwise, we'd be looking after the GOP--right?
I generally like to hear from people or see their views, and respect their situations. I try to "pool" what I can, with what I learn.
This has all happened so suddenly, in so many ways. The fact the Dems lost the Congress...and everything else, over the past four years, and have kept losing it, just since Nov. 2, 2004. It hasn't given us much time to think, when we do something besides just this with our time. The writing, I mean.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #60
70. Well, I certainly hit a nerve
but at least you answered the question.

You come off in the OP as condescending, that's my observation. Your original post is patronizing and you try to set yourself above others by putting others down, painting folks who have every right to be pissed at every aspect of this failure of democracy as shortsighted. See your response to the guy who mentioned Kerry conceding after 12 hours.

I was an admirer of you until I read a thread of yours a couple of weeks ago where you hammered someone else who had very legitmate points, but they weren't your points. They weren't William Rivers Pitt points. You ended up apologizing to that guy, but with goofy qualifyers and excuses and justifications for your attacks on him. I don't recall the title of the thread but it was along the lines that he should shut up because all he ever had to say was one line posts; that may jog your memory. My admiration for you was knocked down a few pegs, but I still supported your efforts and have really not posted much at all wrt them except a causal request which you asked for.

However I stand by everything I say here. Your perspective is limited, you are no more an objective observer than I am much as you would like to have me believe otherwise. Your occupation puts you in the circle that others are excluded from but it also puts you in the awkward position of not biting the hand that feeds you information. Conyers may be a great rep, but he is not the person who had the power to effect the change that was crucial to *this* election. I read your interview with Cam Kerry and I found myself discouaged that you weren't more demanding of details. It was generic at best. My impression ultimately is that you have struck the "big time" nd with that comes financial rewards if not fame, which you cannot deny. I apologize for assuming the former.

I'm also sorry to see how easy you fly off the handle, it is unbecoming and not very professional. No doubt you're an expert at the dripping sarcasm when talking to the commoners. Maybe one day you'll employ that with the folks who really have it coming: the politicians. <shrug>

And as an aside I'm not a fellow, I'm a female.


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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. Response
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 11:44 PM by WilliamPitt
You come off in the OP as condescending, that's my observation. Your original post is patronizing and you try to set yourself above others by putting others down, painting folks who have every right to be pissed at every aspect of this failure of democracy as shortsighted. See your response to the guy who mentioned Kerry conceding after 12 hours.

Your opinion, and not supported by the OP in my opinion, since we're talking opinions.

I was an admirer of you until I read a thread of yours a couple of weeks ago where you hammered someone else who had very legitmate points, but they weren't your points. They weren't William Rivers Pitt points. You ended up apologizing to that guy, but with goofy qualifyers and excuses and justifications for your attacks on him. I don't recall the title of the thread but it was along the lines that he should shut up because all he ever had to say was one line posts; that may jog your memory.

I do. That was Forkboy. Since you joined DU on my birthday, back in November and after the election, I will assume you missed 99.9% of my interaction with that person before that thread, and therefore have no basis upon which to make judgments. As for going after him because they weren't 'William Rivers Pitt' points, it is clear you have a poor memory of the exchange...and by the way, trying to zap me on the 'ego' thing is the tiredest, lamest and most inaccurate of salvos.

I'm also sorry to see how easy you fly off the handle, it is unbecoming and not very professional. No doubt you're an expert at the dripping sarcasm when talking to the commoners. Maybe one day you'll employ that with the folks who really have it coming: the politicians.

You accused me of being happy that Bush is in office, and being in this for the money. I am curious what your reaction would be if someone leveled such vile accusations at you, professional or otherwise.

I think you're one of the people who is only here to pick fights. Glad I spotted you. Bye.
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Donailin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #75
100.  evade the issue, end the discussion, filter the disagreeable
and accuse me of being a troublemaker. Except that my limited history here which is open for all to see would prove otherwise. I can fall in line and I can disagree. I admit when I'm wrong and stick to my guns when I believe I'm right.

To quote you, Will, "People hear what they want to hear"

Good luck to you anyway.

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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #100
107. Give me one example of when Will "flew off the handle"...
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 08:14 AM by ClassWarrior
That would be a rare spectacle indeed.

NGU.


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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #70
79. Funny thing is,
that thread that you mentioned was the one of the most inspiring things I have read during my short time here at DU.

It was not the disruption that I remember, although I could not help but be distracted by it. It was the message and the wisdom in the post. I think about that message almost everyday. I realized that evening that I needed to re-frame the way I felt about this fight. That has made all the difference.

I guess that just goes to re-enforce the original message. Two people can look at the exact same event and walk away with a completely different picture.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #79
83. Can you say how you reframed how you felt? From what to what?
One of the things I like about DU is getting different perspectives that, as you say, help me reframe what I feel and think and believe. It has been a hell of a ride...and I am still trying to find a way to be with it all inside my own head. I kind of put that on hold until Jan. 6 because so much was focused on what needed to be done ( and on the sliver of hope that maybe something would change) that I pushed away facing the reality of * being inaugurated Jan. 20.
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #83
84. I believe the title of the post was "It is a great time to be alive"
Up until that night, I had looked at the situation that we find ourselves in strictly from the negative perspective. Indeed, there is unspeakable tragedy occurring in the world today and our country is firmly in the grasp of vile and ruthless people that will do everything that they can to destroy it and us. I speak as a person that might find myself receiving a call via the ** back door draft. So, how could this possibly be a great time to be alive?

I have spent a great deal of time thinking about this. How fortunate are we to know the truth? If we did not have the Internet(s), and relied solely on the corporate media for information, the majority of us would have no idea what was going on in the world until it was too late.

We know the truth and that gives us the power and the responsibility to fight. We have been called upon, like generations before us to take a stand to uphold the values upon which this nation was founded. It is a somber duty, but one that will not be passed on to the next generation. This is our fight.

So now, instead of dwelling on everything that is wrong with the world, I think about how fortunate I am to be able to fight for a chance to make a difference. In that sense, it is a great time to be alive.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. Thanks
for understanding it, and taking it to heart. A few thought I was being callous. That wasn't my intention.

:toast:
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mordarlar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 04:26 AM
Response to Reply #84
91. I was also impressed having only been here a short time...
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 04:34 AM by mordarlar
I was at that same place myself when it was written. I have an odd conflict going on within. On one hand, i am angry, frustrated, exhausted, lonely, depressed and confused. On the other hand i have a sense of awe. I am actively a part of history. This is an INCREDIBLE, terrifying, overwhelming time. I have always fought to stand in the face of adversity with a sense of honor. I have always wondered, when reading of others facing times like this, where i myself would stand. Would i be one of the lemmings? Would i fight? Would i be honorable? Would my children be proud? I never believed i would live to see a time like this. We are here, and i am proud of where i stand. I am proud to know i was not blind. I am proud to know i am strong. I am proud to know i am fighting an honorable fight, not simply for the people i love but for those that might try and beat me down. We have moved mountains as one author said. And i am PROUD to have been a part of it.

I do understand the point made in the previous point. We are all fighting our battles. We are all doing the best we can with what is available to us. No one of us is greater or less than another, when all of it is said and done. For months i have been beating down, point after point, the arguments on a bi partisan site so that those who are sympathetic, but do not KNOW the truth, might hear something other than the spewed garbage of the deaf, dumb and blind freep loyalists. By the time i found this forum i was a bloody pulp. I have since found a niche here and i am grateful for it. But it is difficult when people see you as new to a fight you have been fighting so hard, for so long. I am wearing a "blue paper clip". I did not have to walk out my door to do it. Although the sunshine on my face would feel very good at this point. We are all tired and emotionally raw. But we are all going to need our energy for the WAR to come. I thank everyone here. There is a beautiful diversity and a wonderful strength to all of us. We are all fighting the same battle in the end. I look forward to the day when all of our attention is focused on George walking away from the White House, in shame.


"May you live to see exciting times"

Chinese curse (still wondering what i did to deserve it : / )
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roenyc Donating Member (824 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #91
111. Ha! you should have lived in
the 60's and 70's lol - just bragging. i remember a friend of mine was complaining about getting old and i said look how lucky we were, how much we witnessed because we grew up during the 60s and 70's, the first moon landing the war in Viet Nam, the real news lol, the protests, Woodstock, love ins. it was a great time to be alive.

so look at this time and be so glad you are in involved. because 20 and 30 and 40 years from now you are going to write on a message board or whatever is cool at the time: Ha you should have lived in the 00's!!! so protest and get out there and do all you can do to make this time memorable. get to Washington with the rest of the people on the 20th. these times only come once or twice in a lifetime.

take part in history. history is being made.
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mordarlar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #111
114. LOL BRAG AWAY!! I plan to. ; ) Lucky you involved in history twice; )
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #114
135. don't feel lucky to live in 'interesting times' twice......feel tired
it's one thing when you're young.....it's much harder when you're over 60 with some physical problems....AND YOU DID THIS ONCE BEFORE AND WON...

or we thought we won......we forgot that 'eternal vigilance is the price of liberty'.....we saw what the right was doing, the Weyriches, the Viguries, the 'moral majorities', the new TV stations.....but most of us did nothing .....

if nothing else, I hope both young and old in this fight resolve to 'always be on the watch' and never again lounge back and think that finally the battle is over
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mordarlar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #135
137. We will be repairing damage for so long...
Edited on Fri Jan-14-05 09:03 PM by mordarlar
I also hope we do not become as complacent again. I am 32 and i am tired : / Yet facinated at the same time. Strange.
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Daphne08 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #135
141. I heartily agree
I also was there in the '60's protesting the war, attending campus concerts, reading Betty Friedan and enjoying a new found freedom which spilled into the '70's... it changed so much in our country and so much about us! Yes, it was indeed an interesting time to be alive!!

Now here I sit an old married woman with grown children, and I never dreamed that we would find ourselves back (almost) at Square One again so darn soon. It still seems impossible.

Yes, you are right. We became complacent, and we did indeed forget the lesson of eternal vigilance.












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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 05:41 AM
Response to Reply #70
95. Please let's don't fight among ourselves...
We don't have to agree with everything someone here says, but wasting our time in an argument is not doing any of us any good. We have a common goal here...and we can't get there by tearing each other down.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #70
119. Uh, oh, somebody forgot to send Donailin the memo
William Rivers Pitt or Will as he is often addressed here is human, tends to frustrated rants and occasionally even goads people. He's very passionate about the things he cares about and not a little protective of them as well.

When he screws up and figures out that he has screwed up, he apologizes.

He's not a higher god around here, sure he.s more famous that some but overall he's just one of the troops,
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #60
97. Circumstantial evidence earned Scott Peterson a death sentence.n/t
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roenyc Donating Member (824 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #60
108. Powerfull...
#1 in that mission is to not shit on your allies.

Best advice in the thread. sometimes i get upset when i read "bash our people threads" because i know others are reading them. i know being Dem's we all have opinions, and are not sheep. but we should have a forum that is private or locked if we want to spread hate within the party. i could be wrong. i dont know. i am pretty new.

I dont want to become one of "them" of course, the cons will defend bush and tom delay and Gonzalez no matter what. its not what we are. but, right now we are in a semi crisis situation. We need to support our democrats and write letters to those who are not supporting us. but public slander isn't the answer.

I am sure there are things going on we know nothing about. When Watergate broke, there was no web and no one knew what was going on. if there was no web we would not have the info we have. things take time. let it be.

Oh and Will you are probably on an upward turn. life goes in 9 year cycles. looks like the last 8 years sucked. time for some rewards.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
51. Thank you, Will, for channeling heiderheld once again.
(Her name means "clarity" in Dutch, y'know...)

I prefer a metallic blue paperclip myself.

NGU.


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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
52. Will, that is the ONLY "Fundamental Truth".
People believe what they want to believe. If people hear something that contradicts their beliefs, they will either ignore it or accept any explanantion (no matter how irrational) that will support their previous beliefs vs the new information that contradicts their beliefs.

Thus, they hear what they want to hear. Anything else is "filtered out."

I know all of us have had the experience where we were talking to someone with an opposing point of view, and as we proceeded to present our case, at some point the other person would hear a "keyword" or a "catchphrase", and you could see in their eyes and expression that they were thinking "yeah, right, after that I'm not going to believe anything else you have to say" and the conversation is over.

I'll bet most of us do it, outselves! Did you ever try to have a conversation with a Republican who quoted Rush or Hannity, and as soon as they mentioned the name you just rolled your eyes?

Sometimes, I think both sides get so wrapped up in "hot button" issues that we forget the underlying principles. I heard an interview with the man that many credit with re-energizing the Republican Party (no, not Neutered Gingrich - I wish I could remember his name, but he was a behind the scenes guy that I hadn't heard of before). He made a statement that it was much easier to motivate people to be AGAINST something that they perceived as wrong, than it was to motivate them for something they perceive as right.

Look at how effective "negative campaigns" are... I think he may be right.

I believe that the Democrat Party is the "Thinking" party. But how do you get people to "think" if they don't WANT to think?
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Pffffffffffffft on the fightin' I am ready to get to work!
:) Will, again well said
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SmileMaker Donating Member (346 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. You seduce them with music, comedy and activists who are
welcoming and filled with positive passion. We need to create a demand for our 'brand' of activism. I continue to believe that love conquers all - and, the mostly positive people that I follow here and in my activist travels reinforces that. Thom Hartmann has a series in his archives on Neuro Linguistic Programming. I recommned we all have a listen. We need to start doing some Jujitsu on the brainwashed in this country.
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bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #57
74. Yes I heard him talking about it today. I think I'll have to try some of
that NLP, while I'm wearing my blue paperclip of course!
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #74
78. Perhaps the lesson is that until we can talk to them in some way
where they'll actually LISTEN, we'll never get our message across.

We can't change them, but we can ourselves.

By extension, we can't change what they "hear", but we can change what we say to make it easier to hear what we are saying.

As Marshall McLuhann used to say; "It's not the message, it's the massage"

We just have to be sure the message doesn't get lost in the massage. That's what has happened with the Repugs.
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alexisfree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
56. this war is not over....
I prefer to stay away from reading the fights and just take the best of the people of DU... is better to have one bird in hand than ......you know the rest...
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Lostnote03 Donating Member (850 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
59. Hear what they want -but where is the see what they want?
...........Will( I feel like I know you), I was behind Kerry while he was 3rd place in the primaries.....If a No vote represents a political statement then the other half of the country all must be dining at the same table on Wednesday nights.....They must be thinking and discussing something that is not discussed here on DU because they certainly are solid in their No-show efforts....I presume as many, that roughly 3/4s of the country theoretically fall under the "Big Tent" ideals.....I also assume, that as Americans we grasp the intent of the 1st, 2cd and Right to Vote amendments.....JKs lack of "demonstrative" effort conveys predictability(will not fight) to the powers that be and perpetuates the very real wall of separation between the "haves" and "have nots".....bottom line Kerry IMO is allowing a historic moment to lapse.....Best Wishes
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:10 PM
Response to Original message
61. Damn, if this is taking a break...
I'd hate to see you serious dude.

I'm working on an idea for a protest, can you send me Tim's and Kevin's email via PM?

-Hoot
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
62. True Believers are Hard to Deal With
This applies to ours as well as the Bushies'.

Someone else mentioned cognitive dissonance on this forum today. That's what it's about.

I've tried to separate some of the wheat from the chaff and take some positive action here. I'm getting tired though.

We need to put all the pressure we can on Congress and the States to implement election reform, and particularly verified voting, which is probably the one thing we all agree on. Even some Republicans would agree on this too so there's a good chance it could happen! But not if we sit around debating exit polls (for example) all day.

There is no reason why we can't have verified voting in time for the 2006 election if we keep the pressure on.

We should also try to get some key counties recounted for real in Ohio. There are 3 of them, all mentioned in other threads and by the PhDs and lawyers working on this stuff and in my very first post on DU.

What is amazing to me is why this stuff isn't being done yet.

What happened on Jan 6, happened in part because of us. This is a great start, but it's only the beginning. Anyone who thought otherwise was uninformed.
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m.standridge Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. but you have to anticipate the next hurdle
"they" (the GOP) will put up.
That hurdle, is to get it into the media, that, just like before with Gore in Florida, you're "cherry picking" the counties.
You can anticipate that, by data such as Professor Phillips is posting, that show, statewide, powerful statistical indicators of a Kerry lead in Ohio.
That probably would help to anticipate a pending next hurdle to the 3 county actual recount.
Then, in step 4 (I guess it would be) you'd recount the others, having gotten "momentum" by proving the ability--or potential-- to move into an actual lead, from data from the three key counties, as you've described them.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. But to date, because of Blackwell's tactics,
there has been no true recount of anything. Why wasn't THAT anticipated?

Even Phillips' analysis lists these 3 counties as the greatest potential source of Kerry votes. Instead Blackwell has been allowed to hand pick 3% of the state and we're no further along than we were before.

If we could find major screw-ups in those 3 counties, amounting to thousands of votes, that could lead to a full count with a smaller margin to overcome. Instead, Kerry picked up 300 votes! And LOOK what the media did with THAT!

Was this all foreseeable? I don't know, but the bottom line, looking at the results is that nothing has changed and that's a pity.
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m.standridge Donating Member (269 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #72
77. Ukraine
Now they're saying that they're going to try to undo the re-vote in the Ukraine.
"Multi-million dollar effort." Wonder what tsunami relief fund drive some of that might be coming from?
We may not be able to cite the Ukraine as an example much longer.
A lot of stops are being pulled out.
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super simian Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
63. People hear what they want to hear...
...because people believe what they want to believe. Belief and desire just aren't that far apart on the human emotional spectrum.

P.S. Just posted a thread about "Quiz Show" which I am watching right now and main character Charles Van Doren just said the same thing synchronistically as I typed the above sentence "people believe what they want to believe."
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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
64. You are so right Will -- the paper clips work
I work with some very young people ... well, young compared to me anyway. Voting age and some are oblivious. I can't wear button or ribbons at work but I wear my paper clip everyday. I have had the conversations that you are talking about here several times, very successfully I might add.

Let me relate one story. Chris, a young guy works the door. I see him when I go in and when I go out. He made a comment one day about "not getting political" on him. It opened up a conversation about the paper clip on my shirt. I ended up taking my clip off and clipping it to his collar at the end of the conversation.

Skip forward several day. I am getting ready to leave and he is there. He proudly tells me that he wore the paper clip to work one of the days that I wasn't there. He then tells me that several other employees mentioned that he had this paper clip -- cracking on him. One even went to remove it. Instead, he was able to talk to them about why it was there. When he told me the story, I asked if he would be interested in reading some info about the situation and get better informed himself. He was glowing! He was thrilled that I would offer. I came home and emailed him several good sites (DU included) for him to check out on his own. I sent the email at 12:45 am -- he read it at 2:11 am that morning. I haven't talked to him yet but when I do, it will be a most interesting conversation, I am sure. He, being their age, will be able to relate the information to them on their level and they will listen to him. Imagine how many people I have touched with one little conversation!

Also had a senior citizen lightly tap the bumper of my car in a parking lot one day because he was reading my bumperstickers. There was no damage to the car, but it gave me a chance to engage in conversation. Being that he was older, he remembered the original reason for the paper clips and thanked me for reminding him and bring the message back to the forefront. I unclipped myself again and gave my clip to him. Again, I am touching people that I will never meet because I know he will be talking about the lady in the parking lot with people in his circle.

You never know where the info will go once you have shared it, but you know with most, it will not stop with that conversation.

"People love to talk, but hate to listen. Listening is not merely not talking, though even that is beyond most of our powers; it means taking a vigorous, human interest in what is being told us. You can listen like a blank wall or like a splendid auditorium where every sound comes back fuller and richer." --Alice Duer Miller

Thanks again Will!
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
65. Wisdom have you, Mr. Pitt
Thanks again.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
66. That's too easy, Will

I agree that it's going to be a long and serious internal argument. But if you want this Party to overcome the internal obstacles that are fatal to its success in the present, this election is the (somewhat coincidental) center and event in which all the stumbling blocks were made obvious.

In some sense the advice you're giving here seems counterproductive to me. Activist Democratic selfrighteousness and activist Democratic entitlement to or neediness for power absent coherent principle are, to me, the most important subjects of it all.

You may be right, maybe that's not where to focus on for the time being. In any case, Kerry is off somewhere dealing with the swing voter Republican bias on foreign policy, it's nonetheless the innards of the Party and its activists that have to cast off the Old Democrat and New Left methodological limitations.

(Btw, there's a great book to be written in the next year or two about what that 'new' coherent Democratic central principle is and explaining fully how it applies.)
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il_lilac Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
67. as a newbie poster...
...but longtime lurker I've been reluctant to say much lately. It has been way scary at times in here. But I have been so grateful for the info I get here, and yes then I leave my house and try to pass it on. I always look for your posts and check your website because I know I can trust your motives and heart. Thank you for making me a believer in hope. :hug:
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Left coast liberal Donating Member (889 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
80. That was a wonderful essay, Will. Thank you.
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Eye_on_prize Donating Member (205 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
85. Too broad a brush for me. I mean, sure, some people are more "selective"
..in their hearing than others, and..that's called a totally closed mind. But I don't think it is very helpful to paint "everyone" on DU (or anywhere except maybe freeperville) with such a broad brush. If "everyone" just hears what they want to hear, period; then why even try to communicate at all? Come on Will.

Maybe your point is that "hearing what you want to hear" is more prevalent here than you would like. Me too. I agree with that sentiment.

Regarding selective v. non-selective listening, it seems there are stages along the way to total 'conversion' (or non-conversion as the case may be):

Stage 1 - stonewalling, name-calling, reactionary, totally just hearing what you want to hear.

Stage 2 - congnative dissonance, confusion, panic, fear of discovering you are wrong.

Stage 3 - epiphony, seeing the 'other side' for the first time, feeling 'in the others shoes', temptation to "flip-flop".

Stage 4 - conversion, total change of view and perspective, becoming the very thing you used to argue against, fear and loath.

Also, I liked the example someone gave above (sorry, I'm in writing mode, my computer is slow, and I'm too lazy to go all the way back through the strings) about the blue paper clip and the conversation with the senior citizen in the parking lot, who then goes and talks with his own circle of friends about it. This story captures something important about direct human contact v. keyboard warriorship.

I appreciate your post Will, cuz it got us all thinking and exchanging ideas...and, who knows? maybe even hearing each other and :think: a little more clearly too.

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
87. "Unambiguous comments from Kery and his crew that election reform...
...will be front and center on his list of priorities when he returns to Congress...."

Explain to me why it wasn't before.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #87
122. Hey, Will! I'd like an answer to #87, if you're still there... n/t
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #87
132. Because he was running a national campaign
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
88. "Better get some sleep, Louis, you're starting to talk gibberish --"
Bananas.
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thanatonautos Donating Member (282 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
89. There is lots of truth there about how people behave ... but after all
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 03:41 AM by thanatonautos
it's only natural for people to behave that way.

Humans do tend to be argumentative and aggressive as a species,
especially so when they feel themselves to be threatened and
powerless, and probably a lot of posters here do feel threatened
by, and powerless relative to, some of the people who are in
government.

At least, I know that I do.

Powerlessness leads to a generalized feeling of rage, and being
under threat leads to a generalized feeling of fear.

Even when not enraged and fearful, people have an innate tendency
to maintain their own internal constructions of reality by means
of extraordinary mental efforts, unless very strong
counter-evidence emerges, generally something on the order of
being hit in the face by a brick that one insisted wasn't real.

So a statement asserting a fact that disagrees with one's
carefully constructed world view can actually be perceived as a
threat, and it's more likely to be perceived that way when it's
made in a public forum, possibly with a lot of negative,
personally directed modifiers added in.

The easiest response, the one that most minimizes pain in the
short run, is simply to refuse to listen to the disturbing
information, whatever it is, and to continue as before.

I think this is what you refer to when you say:

`People are going to hear what they want to hear.'

I'ld say it's actually something more like:

`People are not going to listen to what they don't want to hear.'

A simple denial reaction is not, by the way, some sort of a
character flaw, at least not as I see it. It's actually a
survival characteristic for social creatures, for whom to be
proven wrong in front of a group can often lead to losing status
in the group, and for whom continued acceptance in a group
amounts to nothing less than life itself. If someone can manage
to appear confident, even in the face of a telling
counter-argument, or a personal attack, they very often gain
status, regardless of the merits of the case.

So it's not at all surprising that you see the kinds of
disagreements that you do, on the kinds of issues that you've
listed.

What makes things worse is that a number of the issues you list
in fact involve characterizations, positive or negative, of a
particular individual that a lot of people here have made strong
emotional judgements about, either for or against.

(1) Kerry was a coward for not standing up in Congress.

(2) Kerry isn't worth bothering with anymore because he failed to
fulfill expectations per the Senate appearance.

(3) Kerry ran a great race and will be a perfect choice for
President in 2008.

(4) Kerry played the election thing as well as he could.

Opinions (1) and (2) will tend to be accepted by people who have
strong negative feelings about John Kerry, while (3) and (4) will
tend to be accepted by people who have strong positive
feelings about John Kerry.

This is the ideal setup for producing seemingly irresolvable and
endless arguments, and it's really quite irrelevant that the
facts that tend to support or vitiate the opinions may be quite a
bit more subtle than the opinions themselves, and that this
situation may suggest that people form more nuanced opinions and
state those instead.

An argument is going to happen, when such opinions are stated,
based purely on the underlying and conflicting emotions that are
current about John Kerry.

You really can't avoid people arguing about such things, and I'm
not at all sure that it's entirely a bad thing for them to do
so. I may be wrong, but I bet if you look carefully into some of
those threads where people, sometimes bitterly, are arguing both
sides, you may see some movement, at least, in the positions on
both sides.

Some of the other issues you raised are quite a bit different in
character.

(a) exit polls are as reliable as tempered steel.
(b) exit polls are unreliable constructs.

This issue should not be at bottom an emotional issue. It's
actually an objective question which admits of an objective
answer.

The objective answer is clearly that exit polls are not as
reliable as tempered steel: if by that it is meant that they are
perfect and free of any possible errors.

I'm a physicist by trade, and I can tell you that no measurement
technique is ever immune to errors, both statistical and
systematic. Further, it's always the systematic errors which you
don't know as well. They can be very difficult to detect and to
quantify.

You do your best to minimize and correct for any systematic
errors that you learn about during the course of an experiment.

But because you can generally never rule out that there was an
unknown systematic error, you always need to look for as many
independent lines of evidence as possible to support any strong
conclusions you may draw about the correctness of your theories
about the experiments.

So exit polls are not as reliable as tempered steel.

However, the opinion that is counterposed to that, that exit
polls are unreliable constructs, is equally weak, and quite
possibly more so, given the context in which the argument
occurs. The argument after all, is about whether the official
results of the election were correct. And the counterargument
that is offered is a non-sequitur: just because one knows that
exit polls are unreliable constructs it does not follow that the
election results are correct.

An exit poll and the official results of an actual election
measure two separate quantities, which however, we might very
well expect to be very closely correlated to the same underlying
quantity, namely how many people in the population tried to vote
for candidate X on election day.

And so it is equally evident that elections themselves may have
systematic errors. In fact, we know precisely where some of the
systematic errors do lie in elections.

So election results themselves should not necessarily be regarded
as reliable constructs. In fact considerable evidence indicates
that they are not.

The most important fact that emerges in the exit poll debate up
to now, is that there is (or at least there appears to be, based
such data as has so far been made available for analysis) a real,
statistically significant discrepancy with the official election
results.

Therefore that debate is a healthy debate, as far as I am
concerned, and certainly it should be continued until we have
more complete knowledge about the exit polls and the election of
2004 than we do at present.

About your suggestions as to what to do about it all. Most of
them are very sensible, and it would certainly be great for
people to don blue paperclips and try to educate everyone who
meets them about what they mean, it's sort of like being an
itinerant preacher, I guess. Anyway, it's a good idea to turn
away from the screen and get outside, if you're capable of it.

Only I'm a little less certain about identifying the immovable
object when I see it, and not so sure about what exactly
constitutes a waste of energy.

But then I've barely been here for a month.

I wish you all the luck possible in finding people out there who
are willing to listen to the facts and have their minds changed
by them.

(Edited to fix an error.)
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #89
105. thanatonautos, a very thoughtful piece! Thank you!
Exit Polls are highly respected, and are considered highly reliable, worldwide. They are used everywhere to verify elections.

See Dr. Steven Freeman's papers at

http://www.truthout.org/unexplainedexitpoll.pdf
http://www.appliedresearch.us/sf/epdiscrep.htm

These studies are also interesting:

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/99... (Univ. of Chic, Dr. Baiman, on the national exit poll)

Baiman concludes, "that, based on the best exit sample data currently available, neither the national popular vote, or many of the certified state election results, are credible and
should not be regarded as a true reflection of the intent of national electorate, or of many
state voters, until a complete and thorough investigation...."

http://ucdata.berkeley.edu (topnotch statistical team finding of 100,000 to 300,000 phantom votes for Bush, in Florida Democratic counties, in paper vs. electronic voting)


The only place Exit Polls have "failed" is here, and the only elections in which they have failed here, are the two Bush elections, '00 (which we now know was stolen) and '04 (which we strongly suspect was stolen), and the '02 by-election (in which Bush operatives were very active, and which had several highly suspicious results).

The problem with the 2004 Exit Polls is not just that Kerry won in the Exit Polls (and didn't in the "official result"), and not just that that information was kept from the American people--a major journalistic crime in my opinion--but that the discrepancy with the "official results" always favors Bush, and favors him the most in the critical battleground states that he needed to win. If there was some skew to the Exit Polls, it should be consistent in all states (favoring one candidate), or random (favoring now one, then the other). It is not. The skew is highly focused on getting Bush the states he most needs. All of the experts that have looked at this have calculated astronomical odds against this discrepancy being the result of random chance or innocent error.

So, the Exit Poll analyses support the notion that Kerry won, on the odds, not just on the comparative numbers (Exit Polls vs. "official results").

I think it's most telling that this information was kept from the American people. Mitofsky (the pollster) has his excuses for this (for mixing the "official results" into the Exit Polls, that is, "adjusting" the Exit Polls to make them fit the "official results"), but none of them hold up. In other countries, they see two separate numbers and, if they conflict, they know something is wrong. Mitofsky and the TV networks KNEW that the U.S. was testing out a new and very controversial voting system, with secret, proprietary source code running the central vote tabulators, as well as individual machines--owned and controlled by BushCon companies--with no paper trail. The situation CRIED OUT for Exit Poll verification! That is exactly the kind of situation in which Exit Polls have been found to be highly useful in other countries (and some, like German, use them routinely).

There was simply no excuse for putting this ILLUSION on everybody's TV screens--that Bush won both the Exit Polls and the "official results." He did not. The illusion was a lie!

But, by God, it prevented a rebellion, didn't it? Because nobody knew.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #89
118. I really enjoyed reading this too!
:yourock:
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IndyPriest Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #89
123. Thanatonautos: nice piece of work!
I would add that not having all the facts -- but tidbits, suggestions, possiblilities -- makes the situtation all the more complex. Human beings are story-creating critters. In the absence of a complete story, we'll make up one that is complete, just to avoid the anxiety and frustration of having to live in partial realities. We like to KNOW what's going on. We can surmise, wonder, hope for stretches, but not forever.
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 04:02 AM
Response to Original message
90. I think you should look in the mirror more often, sorry if this offends.
You don't know which influential people's ears I have, yet you've bashed me anyway for questioning your bestowing of sainthood on John Kerry, long before you "worked" for Kucinich even.

You hear what you want to hear as much as, if not more so, than any here.
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tngledwebb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
92. Good points, all.
Give everyone on our side the benefit of the doubt, fine. But identify the problem clearly. If it is two stolen presidential elections in a row, with bi-partisan and MSM complicity, we've a much bigger job ahead than mere election reform.
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sepia_steel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 04:58 AM
Response to Original message
93. I been noticing this since before the election
and I've been saying it often on another board. No matter what it's nearly impossible to convince a NeoCon of the facts if they don't WANT it to be true, let alone to people in here, which is eve more frustrating.

Right you are, Will, and eloquently put.
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sportndandy Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 05:17 AM
Response to Original message
94. So Democracy is Dead? Was it a non-starter?
If the free exchange of ideas doesn't increase knowledge but rather serves to cement existing bias, then the whole concept of debate at any level is wrong minded.

But I disagree with your conclusion. Those who only believe what they are disposed to believe despite evidence and analysis are conservatives. Those who look for evidence and analysis are liberals. Moderates are mush.

Trying to convince a faith-based person is a waste of time. They view your arguments not as reasoning, but as attacks on their faith. By holding on to their faith despite all reasoning, they will show the strength of their faith, and thus be "right".

I think the people who frequent this sight are liberals i.e. they eat up ideas and analysis to the extent that their viewpoints are expansive and maleable at the same time. One day I will respect Kerry, the next day I will be disappointed, but that won't stop me from forming an updated opinion tomorrow. I have encountered this type of personality here, and I think it is common (at least among liberals)
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #94
98. sepia_steel and sportndandy makes some really good points...
...in regard to convincing "neocons" or "faith-based" Bushites with reasoning and facts. They've taken a priori positions in their own minds for their own reasons, and will not be moved. An attack on their views is seen as an attack on THEM.

And I think sportndandy is correct that a "liberal" mind is more flexible, more open to facts and argument, and is not so kneejerk defensive and scared of free thought.

But I don't think we should be concerned with "neocons" and "faith-based" Bushites right now. I'm convinced that they are in the minority, and in a fair and just political system, would have a voice but not a very big one. Their views have been elevated artificially--as a convenient, exploitable population, by the major greedbags, powermongers, mass murderers and thieves who are running our country.

I am much more concerned about Kerry voters--the majority--the people whose orderly revolution at the polls this November was stolen right out from under them, leaving them demoralized, depressed, exhausted, some even suicidal, and near hopeless that their sensible views of how the country should be run, on generally progressive lines, are not shared by many others (even though the evidence of their own eyes and ears tells them that 70% to 90% of their friends, family and co-workers DO share those views--and all voted against Bush!).

Our first job is to spread the word of what happened in the election for THEIR sakes--so they know they are not alone.

Our second job is to deal with those in denial.

And in all cases--the "neocons," the "faith-based" Bushites, the Kerry voters who already feel in their guts that the election was stolen, and just need the facts, and the Kerry voters who can't or won't face the facts (and this includes most of the Democratic Party leadership)--all of these people are HURTING deep down from SOMETHING.

People who can't think--or who remain deliberately ignorant of relevant facts, and don't seek them out--are traumatized people.

For some Kerry voters, just learning the facts will help them immensely. For others, our job is harder.

Also, I think we're dealing with the common trauma of 9/11. I think it shook people up at the deepest level of their being--but the responses to that shakeup are quite varied. Some latched onto Bush, projecting their own desperate need for steadiness onto that silly weed. Others soon began to perceive something quite radical--that our government was in collusion in some way.

Actually, it reminds me of the Kennedy assassination--which shook some people loose from their moorings, and freed them for unprecedented progressive activism in the next decade, but it made others very conservative and "head in the sand." Those people eventually elected Nixon as a "comforting" figure (har!)--Middle America's president, who would "return" the country to "normalcy."

For Democrats, ADD to 9/11, and anthrax, and Paul Wellstone, and the Iraq war, and John Ashcroft, and Dick Cheney, and all the other shocks of BushConland, the shock of a SECOND stolen election, when John Kerry promised...PROMISED!..

that THIS TIME...

EVERY. VOTE. WOULD. BE. COUNTED.

And you have a whole bunch of people who just can't add things up any more. The election was the LAST adding up they were able to do. Add up Bush' lies, the Iraq war, the federal deficit, and potential loss of women's rights--and vote Kerry.

That was it. Election Fraud they CANNOT add up. Kerry's concession they CANNOT add up. How Bush is still president, when everybody they know voted against him, they CANNOT add up.

They are traumatized. Treat them gently (except for the Democratic leaders, who knew damn well what kind of election system we had, and told us nothing!)

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davidgmills Donating Member (651 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
99. My paper clip
A few days ago I put up a post called "Parable of a rigged game." You can still find it four or five pages back.

Anyway, I have been playing this rigged game for thirty five years involving sixteen objects. I have played thousands of games over the years and have never lost because the game is rigged and no one ever knows.

So I decided to get 16 stones and put them on my conference table.

It has become my opening to talk about election fraud any time someone comes to my office. I usually start by asking how do you like my stones. They are already arranged. When they ask what it is. I tell them it is a game of fraud. I play a little with them and explain the game (as I win of course). I make the point that you wouldn't know fraud if you saw it staring you in the face. And that is what the fraudster wants.

It is my way of bringing up fraud in the election in very red part of America.
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valis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
103. Man, I think I saw Will near Harvard Sq!!! Is it possible?
How many people go around with a blue paperclip on their coat???
I agree with all Will says.
I'm telling you guys, I would not be surprised at all if he became Prez one day. I hope I'll be able to shake his hand before then.
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dmac Donating Member (414 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:37 AM
Response to Original message
104. Great idea - go looking for believers . . . .
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 07:41 AM by dmac
I just hope most of you have better luck than I have had.

Yes, people hear only what they want to hear, they read only what they want to read, and they process everything they see, hear and read through the same pre-'convinced' filter that influences everything else they do in their lives.

I beat myself up on a regular basis leading up to the election trying to understand why I was unable to convince Bush supporters that he was far from the saint they believed, or even to convince them of any of his most notorious flaws - all to no avail. I read articles about how people's brains tend to process data in differing areas of the brain, depending if they are left or right leaning. I subscribed to this belief as nothing else in my experience (in trying to open eyes) made any sense. I guess now I can clarify and say, nothing except as you say, people will hear what they want to hear. Now I am finding that this is not only true between the left and right but the subsets that are forming within the left (and likely the subsets within the right as well).

I guess it is the way we are made. But what remains unfathomable to me is how these filters enable people to ignore blatant facts - as in the case of W. In the case of Kerry, at least it makes sense for these various camps to form as there has been little other than supposition to base any real concrete opinions on, thus people are having to appeal to their "gut" feeling. I wonder if these gut feelings are lining up with the degree of support a voter had for Kerry before the election - as I know he had plenty of people who were voting for him as a vote against Bush, more than as a vote for him.

Regardless, I am rambling about nothing. The bottom line is whether you walk out your door or sit behind a keyboard, there are open minds to be found - but they are not the norm. Mostly you are going to bump into brick walls in either place. I wish it were not so but that has been my experience.

edited for spelling.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #104
139. Kinda like turning a Methodist into a Baptist - not going to happen..
That's why it's so hard to CHANGE peoples minds. And I guess it's why it's referred to as a Mind Set...because it is SET, carved in stone....
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
106. Hate to disappoint you, but you didn't change my mind.
You were preaching to the choir here. ;)

I whole-heartedly agree with you. We see it every day even if we don't recognize it.

Love the paperclip idea! I wore my John Kerry President t-shirt the other day and had three people stop me to ask why I was wearing the shirt now that the campaign was over. Guess what I talked about. LOL!
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roenyc Donating Member (824 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #106
112. sheesh in NYC no one would even notice!
you could go out with just the T shirt and no one but the cops would talk to you. lol but it doesn't matter here.

on randi's show a new yorker was protesting all by herself in union square on Jan 7th. she was a great caller. in NYC apparently the ribbon color is white. she got attention some did ask what she was yelling about.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #112
113. There are times I do miss NYC.
Around here anything related to democrats or liberalism definitely stands out.
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roenyc Donating Member (824 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #113
115. its the anonymity really no one cares
someone is always protesting something. my area is more repub. i cant wait till i get my bumper sticker i want to annoy my neighbor with the huge pick up truck and flags/never 4 get and the wtc, and bush 04 on it. :bounce:
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
116. Questioning our beliefs threatens our whole world-view.
I noticed that the liberals I know who are most reluctant to explore the idea of election fraud are the ones most invested in the system as it is, even if they're the "opposition." An editor of a fancy magazine, for example, another with a cushy job in a cultural organization.

It's almost as if they're scared that if they accept that the SYSTEM IS FLAWED, they might not really deserve to be where they are. You know what I mean? They tell themselves: "Everything is basically normal, life is as it should be... I wish the American people were smarter, but oh, well... I'm fine!"

Accepting the idea that maybe B* and company can undermine democracy is too much. It would mean they have get off their butts and use their money and power to change things, rather than to maintain their nice little world.
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
117. I agree. Or, as George Lakoff put it:
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 09:56 AM by crispini

"If the facts don't fit the frame, the frame is kept and the facts are thrown away."


That's why we all have to learn how to reframe! Everybody, read Lakoff!
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BlueInRed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
121. True, but it applies to both sides of the Kerry debate
This phenomenon applies equally to the Kerry supporters, the Dean supporters, the Clark supporters, etc. For those who always liked Kerry, they heard what they wanted. For those who didn't, but supported Kerry for ABB, they heard what they wanted.

We see this go on everyday for each faction, in every political party. It is by no means limited to the situation for Kerry. You also see it a lot in the die hard pro-Dean and anti-Dean camps and the pro-DLC and anti-DLC camps.

It is natural as humans to find evidence to support our personal opinions and feel vindicated when we see something occur that to us confirms our pre-existing opinions.



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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
125. I think you're talking about detachment
A certain amount of detachment is a very good thing. It is a sign of maturity, I think. Give your argument, but don't be too attached to succeeding in changing the mind of the other fellow. Because you may or you may not, and you can't do anything about it. Same as leading a horse to water and making it drink.

There's a time to let it go. And by that I do not mean giving up, either.


You're right, you can't force people to see it your way. And sometimes your letting go is all they need to be able to shift. What you resist persists.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
127. I suspect some of these complaints about Kerry
Edited on Wed Jan-12-05 01:08 PM by 8_year_nightmare
are nothing more than a "please tell me I'm wrong" plea. Why else would they bother to read the 2004 Election Results & Discussion forum? If they're here, they're looking for hope. Or to disrupt.

I've come to the same conclusions, too, Will. It was WhatsHisFace's politics that brought this computer novice to the internet so frequently. I've learned a lot about the computer in the last four years, thanks to the nitwit-in-charge. And I think it's a good idea to focus on the outside world a bit more, where there are lots of computer-challenged people who could use some enlightening about the truth.

I'm going to get a large blue paper clip & focus on getting the truth out to the outside world more.

I have a lot of faith in John Kerry, I know how slowly the wheels of justice turn, & I have plenty of patience & stubbornness to allow it to unfold properly.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-05 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
131. Kick...
:kick:
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Shalom Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
133. "a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" P. Simon...
The Boxer - Lyrics by Paul Simon

I am just a poor boy, though my story's seldom told.
I have squandered my resistance,
For a pocketful of mumbles, such are promises.
All lies and jest.
Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

When I left my home and my family I was no more than a boy,
In the company of strangers,
In the quiet of a railway station, runnin' scared.
Laying low, seeking out the poorer quarters,
Where the ragged people go.
Lookin' for the places, only they would know.

Lie-la-lie ...

Asking only workman's wages I come lookin' for a job,
But I get no offers,
Just a come-on from the whores on Seventh Avenue.
I do declare there were times when I was so lonesome,
I took some comfort there.
Oooh la, la, la ...

And the years are rollin' by me.
They are rockin' evenly.
I am older than I once was, and younger than I'll be.
That's not unusual.
It isn't strange,
After changes upon changes, we are more or less the same.
After changes, we are more or less the same.

Lie-la-lie ...

Then I'm laying out my winter clothes and wishing I was gone,
Going home, where the New York City winters aren't bleedin' me.
Leadin' me, to goin' home.

In the clearing stands a boxer and a fighter by his trade,
And he carries the reminders of every glove that laid him down,
Or cut him 'til he cried out in his anger and his shame,
"I am leaving, I am leaving."
But the fighter still remains.

Lie-la-lie ...
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libertypirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-05 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
134. Will it is much more simple....
People don't like to be wrong...

You give them the choice between being wrong and ignoring you they will ignore you.

Then frame "Election Fraud" around the way people feel about this country. You can't because it runs counter to their individual beliefs about what America means. Freedom, democracy, equality, have become marketing terms and they still believe this country represents all of that, allowing the idea of election fraud to be real only disturbs their perception and makes them wrong.
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errorbells Donating Member (185 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
136. re: People hear what they want to hear.
I read your post and coincidentally, I had just read the following passage from Willie Dixon's autobiography.

I am the BLUES the Willie Dixon Story

by Willie D and Don Snowden

page 148

"But after you write these songs, people who have bad minds, their minds will tell them what they want to believe. If it's blues and they've been trying to degrade the blues all the time, I don't care what title you come up with, they'll say it's a bad title.... People who think 'Spoonful' was about heroin are mostly people with heroin ideas."

Some things never seem to change. B-)
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
138. how refreshing, as usual, William Pitt! I have more or less avoided
this section since the election certification cuz it appeared this area was dominated by a "one way only" opinion of how we were supposed to think. Accuse Kerry while we were sitting behind our computers, anonymously.

Thanks for still moving forward and inspiring us.
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MadisonProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-05 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
140. Absolutely. Don't let the bastards get you down!
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