Do you people think that you are going to win the next one?

[RaulVB]

I disagree with Mr. Pitt. That is his position, I respect the opinion, but is wrong to think that the next elections in 2006 and 2008 will have a different outcome.

IF JOHN KERRY IS NOT IN THE WHITE HOUSE, REGARDLESS OF IN WHICH DATE, your political sytem is dead.

The American people left Gore defenseless in his effort to challenge the theft of the last election. Bush did not win the last one or this one and you are going to look the other way again?

Where are you going to vote next time?

In which place?

On top of the ashes after a North Korean nuclear attack takes place?

Make no mistake, if this regime continues in power, the catastrophic consequences of it are impossible to imagine.

Put yourself in this places throughout history:

"Do you really think that you're going to defeat the Czar"?

* Doubters to Lenin.

"Do you really think that you're going to defeat Batista"?

* Doubters to Castro.

"Do you really think that you're going to defeat Hitler"?

* Doubters to Churchill.

"Do you really think you're going to defeat the British?"

* Doubters to Gandhi.

I'm for one will continue the struggle.

Sorry, guys, this is the last chance you will ever have. Take it or live with the consequences of your decision.

I can always quit and try to survive, but that is not what America needs today.

[New Earth]

1. THANK YOU, I LOVE YOU NOW

i can't see Will Pitt's thread anymore, so in my world, it doesn't exist.

[jamboi]

9. Great point Raul! n/t

[berniew1]

84. Bush Admin. in heap of trouble ,irregardless of if allowed to steal elect

The huge national debt, huge balance of trade deficits, huge energy imports, huge problems with global warming, global mercury pollution, dying coral reefs, declining fisheries, increasing desertification and droughts due to g.W., Iraq disaster, falling dollar, destabilized world economic system, that have all been made worse by Bush policies will bring down the Repubs irregardless of this election. But it will be worse if Bush is allowed to steal this one.
Its also the case that Bush and Cheney have committed impeachable offenses and they can't hide it forever. 9/11 unraveling.

[tjdee]

2. You have a lot of faith in the rest of America, I'll tell you that.

What scared the shit out of me in 2000 was that so few people cared who was the president one way or another.

If there is not CONCRETE evidence, as in tapes, or someone's fingerprint somewhere, there is NO WAY Bush won't be the president.

People just don't care. They're certainly not going to take up arms as they did in all but one of your examples. Not Desperate Housewives watching, Hummer buying, 100 pounds overweight America.

I personally am just hoping for enough buzz to come out of this that the rest of his "presidency" will be riddled with ridicule and lame-duckness. And to fix for next time.

[RaulVB]

4. There will not be "a next time"

Under Bush's regime this nation is doomed.

Sorry to be so frank.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

18. I agree Raul. If this election isn't overturned, Democracy

as we know it is dead. Everything is in place for their complete fascist takeover.

I say as we know it, because this country has not been ours for years upon years.

[RaulVB]

21. Dead, indeed.

It is very important to understand that the regime has the ultimate goal of destroying the Democratic opposition.

That simple.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

37. What I can't believe is that it is so Clear to me, and yet

So many others just don't "see" it. Whenever someone talks about reform for the future, I keep saying, what future? Not that I'm giving in, not in the least. The Collective Consciousness has to be woken up. This is a practically impossible task when MSM has turned traitorous. Huge, Major FRAUD has to be uncovered ASAP, with Evidence that the MSM cannot turn their backs on. Will this happen, I pray to the heavens that it will. Yet then, if they do, will mysterious envelopes with anthrax appear once again in their mailboxes???

[RaulVB]

39. I lived under a fascist military dictatorship. I know what's going on.

People here is lucky. They don't uderstand reality because they don't have a context or historical perspective to compare with.

Bush is planning a complete takeover and has assaulted EVERY SINGLE DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTION CREATED BY THE DEMOCRATS.

I don't understand their blindness either.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

42. Raul, was the military in your country trained at our own

School of the Americas?

That is just tiny example of what I mean about this country not being ours for years....

[RaulVB]

45. Yes

Paid by the "American taxpayers."

You know, you "have to protect them from themselves."

They might like real democracy!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

54. Raul, the average American Taxpayer hasn't a clue of all the horror

That their hard earned money has funded. The MSM gives them information that has been "approved" for consumption. No more, no less. I often use this as an example, because it is so clear, and was in the recent past. How many people thought Saddam was behind 9/11? They were so easily manipulated on the heels of a great tragedy, and with very simple Madison Ave. techniques began to believe that black was white.

The government behind our government has been responsible for great sins and misery throughout the world, let alone within our borders. Until we can get a free press that allows all the destruction that they have caused to be exposed, and a major housecleaing throughout is done, even with a benevolent John Kerry, we will never stop this madness.

[LiberalAndProud]

71. You are saying what I have been saying.

Let me quote myself.

"I believe that this is our last chance to recover the right to vote. You don't know how evil this man and his minions are. Mark my words, we will be at war with Iran and with North Korea if this man and the people behind him are allowed to steal four more years."

That speech got 2 more people to attend the protest yesterday.

In addition, I believe that Kerry has his guns out for the ShrubBoy pResident. I don't believe it will be a frontal attack to prevent the inauguration this month. Kerry will be working very hard to take * down over the next months (possibly years). I will enlist in that army.

This is the first volly in a long war. Nixon went down and he had a genuine mandate when he was elected. I expect the same will happen to Bush with his manufactured mandate, regardless of the NeoCon death-grip on the arms of power.

Bush will go down. That won't make Kerry president.

[RaulVB]

73. Kerry deserves to be the President. He won.

I see your point though.

But the longer it takes, more suffering for the American people.

And I will not give up to try to stop that from happening.

[LiberalAndProud]

74. I have shed many tears that he has been denied office.

He deserves it. Our country needs it. This continues to be heartbreaking.

[Quakerfriend]

3. Yes, Raul VB I tend to agree with you

However, one thing has given me some comfort in the last several days. Remember, those threads, last week, about psychic predictions re: Bush and Kerry? Well, they basically said that Bush would be Inaugurated in O4, but that he would have a great fall by June of 06, I think it was. And, that Kerry would be inaugurated too (?when).

Anyway, if it makes you feel any better I am a scientist- grounded in facts. And, I don't base my life on psychics. However, I've had some tell me amazing stuff that has come true, too!!

SO, cheers and keep the faith.

[RaulVB]

6. The historical dimension of this is HUGE

Bush's regime has embarked in a path of collision with other forces in the world.

His regime will fall eventually but, I'm afraid the consequences will be paid by innocent Americans here and abroad.

I don't think that most of the people here really understands what's going on.

[googly]

48. I am just amazed at the depth of your understanding of the

situation with Bush in control for next 4 years. I guess having actually lived under fascist regime before gives you a better insight than most of us who have never set foot in another country.

[RaulVB]

61. Unfortunately, it does

I learned the hard way...

[karlrschneider]

11. Well, unfortunately, there is no 'legal' way for Kerry to become President

once Chimp has been inaugurated. Ain't possible. Even if he's successfully impeached (imagine how that would happen with a Repug-controlled House AND Senate???)...

We are stuck with the chickenshit chickenhawk prick for 4 years. It's just that awfully simple.

[RaulVB]

15. Wrong

You can't qualify as "legal" criminal activities.

This goes beyond formalities. A big constitutional crisis is on the horizon.

[googly]

52. The problem is, the highest court in the land, the SCOTUS is

5:4 repug, and it would be extremely unlikely they would rule against chimpy. But it's possible. Nixon was removed from power by republicans telling him they were going to vote for impeachment. But today there is just too much partisanship going on.

[RaulVB]

66. You never know

The "power game" is on...

[angrydemocrat]

81. Hell Right Now The Repukes

Have war in there own party among themselves. If there was grounds for impeachment I don't think there would be as many stick their necks on the chop block for Chimpee as you think. These people have families and need a job to. And they know that if they was to pull a stunt like that there would be a bigger chance that they would be goners than not. You might be suprised at how many would turn on chimpee if the evidence is there. And like I said it is well known they are having war in their own party right now.

[jamboi]

44. Not true...yet. may come to that, but for now we're still fighting. n/t

[karlrschneider]

5. Nothing wrong with optimism, but in this particular case, no chance.

It will have to get worse (and it will) before it gets better. I will offer 100 to 1 odds on that and hope to hell I'd lose. Reality sucks, but it's still reality.

[RaulVB]

10. I'm not optimistic, I'm realistic

You will not have the possibility of taking over the "one Party Republican regime" in the future.

Take it to the bank.

[jamboi]

46. Criminal acts put this on a different level than just politics, so can't

agree with you.

[googly]

The stark reality is that even if someone was convicted of voter fraud

unless shrub had a direct hand in it, or was proven to be in a conspiracy, he can not be removed. If shrub is inaugurated on Jan 20th, the US constitution does not allow any court to remove him. That power is solely in the hands of congress. The house as to impeach and senate has to remove him. With solid majorities in both houses it is not realistic to expect that will happen. But we can always hope for miracles.

[KittyWampus]

7. "You" People?

[RaulVB]

12. Paraphrasing William Pitt, that's all (n/t)

[Kellis]

8. Prove Fraud....

and everything else is cake.Kerry is a smart man.He knows what's at stake here. :)

[RaulVB]

13. Already proven.

Kerry is smart, indeed, he has seen enough evidence and started to act.

I don't understand the wave of defeatism here today.

[Kellis]

17. you don't?

Keep in my mind the DU is an open forum.*Anyone* is allowed to join and post.Don't let'em get to ya'.Today was a beautiful day for DU and for Democracy.
Keep the Faith RaulVB.

[RaulVB]

27. I can see that and I support free opinion

What I don't understand is that smart people gets way too emotional here, too many artificial mood changes and lack of perspective!

[Quakerfriend]

16. I've actually fantasized

about the international community arresting him!! And, all the people dancing in the streets in celebration!

[Kellis]

24. ha...I bet international leaders

have had that exact same fantasy.Chimpy isn't very popular among the international set.

[merh]

14. Unless we deal with the election fraud/irregularities/theft NOW

there will not be a next time. We probably won't have the internet to help us communicate and keep us informed, and I am not too sure that we will have much of a nation left.

We have to deal with this now - tomorrow is too late.

The issue is not the candidate, it is not the party, it is that they stole the election. John Kerry won and if is not allowed to accept the office he won, then we don't have much of a future, whether we are dems, libs or greens.

just my opinion.

[RaulVB]

19. Excellent point!

After "the republican attack on the Internet", and that is coming next, there will be not A SINGLE VEHICLE TO EXPRESS A FREE OPINION, in the US.

Reality is hard to accept but still reality.

[momzno1]

35. yes, but we have to remeber that we didn't have

internet during vietnam either. And more people got up off their asses and got into the streets. I am as guilty of that as anyone. I find it easy to be an internet protester, but we need action. If they take internet away, you can bet there would be action.

I do think we have a good chance to get Kerry in the Whitehouse, we need to focus on the positive. I have a very long ignore list, cause if people are downers about this, they go on my list. I don't mean those who have careful and thoughtful criticism, but I cannot handle the negative spin on this. I think it is hopeful.

My son is writing a paper on the works of Emerson, and one line really got me thinking...

"a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. Whith consistency, a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself withhis shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words agin, though it contradict everything you said today" (Ralph Waldo Emerson from Self Reliance.)

made me think of the image of John Kerry and the so-called flip flopping and how * is soooooooooooo consistent! * is so limited too, and John Kerry is a great man!!! He has the greatness, and mind to change and re-assess his position. He is not stuck. I have even more respect for him now than I did prior to the election.
Keep the Faith!

[RaulVB]

36. I agree completely (n/t)

[merh]

55. We had a much more honest media during vietnam.

There was not the corporate control of the media then as we have now. Do you remember the images of body bags and actual combat that came into our homes during vietnam?

We have no media - they control it and it will get worse. Our connection to reality, not just at home, but abroad is the internet. Yes, we have to be active and not rely on the internet, but without it, we will have to find another avenue to communicate and to stay informed.

[procinderella]

69. Excellent momzono1

I have marched in the streets and I do remember Nam. Protests that are huge never get any press coverage because they are scary stuff. Kids today are glued to their computer screens and don't realize the power they've got. You have to be there to realize the people do have power. History has shown it time and time again. Look at our own country!

I believe. The arc of the universe - as Dr. King says - bends to wards justice.

This is just the beginning of the fight. Don't worry. And tell your son, this is the new generation of self reliance.

[newyawker99]

79. Hi procinderella!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Pharaoh]

32. I feel the same way

This election "wasit" if we cannot overturn ohio and thus the election there won't be a next time.......the game is up, we're screwed, What makes this whole situation feel so hopeless is

WHERE THE FUCK IS THE MSM!!!!!

Wheres Al franken? wheres dan rather?

THIS SUKS!:hurts:

[zeemike]

20. I think it is all planned out

Hilliary will run in 08 and may just win, but it will be no victory for the progressives, because of the great shift in government toward the right. She will be only a figurehead precedent to make us feel good, and the RW government will continue to work just the same with only token Little battles won and lost.
The real power in this country cares very little who is precedent, they only care that they have the power to do what they want, that his real power, and the presidency might as well be a new reality show.

[seito]

25. Hillary 08...Never gonna happen n/t

[The Flaming Red Head]

30. They aren’t going to let any Democrat win in 08.

It’ll be Cheney or someone even worse.

[RaulVB]

34. Correct

The Democratic Party will not be in the White House if is not with Kerry in 2005.

Simple.

[zeemike]

43. you have no imagination

If you want to keep a delusion going you have to let the other side win one once and awhile,otherwise all the responsibility for the bad things that happen would only rest on one party.
The real Power in government is not in the presidency, just ask Jimmy Carter who said he was surprised by how little power he had. The real power in government lies in the federal judiciary which by 08 will be 90 percent RW.

[The Flaming Red Head]

60. It’s President Dick Cheney or President Jeb Bush, next time.

It's only going to get worse.

[googly]

56. The nomination is Hillary's for the asking. She outpolls all others

by a HUGE margin in the democratic party.

[angrydemocrat]

83. Hillary in 08

NO WAY!:crazy: Senator: :thumbsup: President::thumbsdown:

[seito]

22. I agree that we desperately need to overturn this election

but...there is a chance that we will not.

I will be the last to give up hope, but trust me on this one, if we relent on this fight, should we lose the battle on Jan 20th, the prophesy of RaulVB will surely come to pass.

We have got to take this country back. We have got to get the American people to wake up and realize what has happened. That means we have got to get offline and talk to people, rally, protest etc.

There are some fantastic people out there that are working their A**es off proving that this election was stolen. If the unthinkable happens, we have got to continue to back their efforts until we have enough proof to throw his shrubbiness out on the street.

This is going to be a long hard fight, and not one of us can afford to stand on the sidelines. We know the truth and we have an obligation to spread that truth to anyone willing to listen.

[googly]

50. It is sad that main players from the democratic party are staying out

of the fight to prove fraud. Why is'nt Kerry calling in press conferences every week? That surely would get the MSM's attention.

[SnoopDog]

23. I agree Raul..

We need to get this idiot out of office before he destroys us.

I posted a more pointed opposition on the W.Pitt thread should you want to read that.

[RaulVB]

33. I read your opinion and I suscribe it entirely

Great points there.

What is he going to destroy next?

We really need to stop this madness.

[SnoopDog]

40. Thanks Raul.. I appreciate your concurance...

Are you a citizen of the US? Just asking as I noticed 'your political system".

Regards.

[RaulVB]

41. Immigrant

I was an immigrant back in the "Clinton years", when America was still a democracy.

[SnoopDog]

70. Raul.... Question.

Where, if you are able to tell me, are you from?

Also, thanks for your support of Democracy. In its pure implementation, it is a very good form of government.

[RaulVB]

72. Chile (n/t)

[xynthee]

26. Bless you!

Truly inspirational!

Thank you SO much, Raul and the yeasayers (good name for a band, don'tcha think?)!

As long as there are 3 or 4 people left who believe there's still a shot to get rid of these lunatics, I'll be able to go on living! Otherwise . . . .

[newyawker99]

80. Hi xynthee!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Helga Scow Stern]

28. Told you it was important for you to stick around. n/t

[xynthee]

29. DUPE!! I apparently don't know what I'm doing yet!

[jsascj]

31. Whoa...What the heck did Pitt say?

I must have missed something major around here today.

Raul, I agree with you 100%. And it is refreshing indeed to see a Republican wanting the truth to come out too.

You did say that you are a Republican, didn't you?

[RaulVB]

38. Self kick (way too significant) n/t

[femme.democratique]

47. EXACTLY!!! I posted this in the original thread...

How is it that all the smart people on DU could be so naive?

As to think that getting Kerry into office isn't an explicit part of this! If we won, WE WON! I don't care about this "technicality". People don't believe they don't have the "right" to vote I think it would be very difficult in a court of public opinion to deny a legitimate result based on this and only this principle. This ones a powderkeg, its things like that that really start civil wars.

Though I agree our elections are really a joke and need to be re-archictected from the ground up, I must ask- why do you presume there will even be a *next* election to "improve"? Exactly what is it that you fail to understand about the utter contempt for "We The People" that this bunch has, and the alarming recent trend of escalating attacks on us and what this portends for our not too distant future?

Some appear to have way too much faith in systems that have little visibility or integrity (ie- Why is it that legislation can get passed WITHOUT ANYONE READING IT!!! Troubling, thinking what other laws have been passed, just waiting for the whole fascist framework to come together?), and in our elected representatives who only REALLY care about us during an election cycle.

Our congress, and Democratic reps have shown NO backbone when it really counts. There *are* those reps with integrity and who work hard on our behalf, (such as the good people from the judiciary committee) but in general the appalling apathy over this issue should give you all the information you need to know. Kerry has until 1/6 til he's on my sh*t list.

Over and over again our government has failed and abused its people and we really have little or no effect on the overall picture or direction of governance. Control of the media has seen to that. Personally I believe we are already in a constitutional crisis. For some here not to see all of this reminds me alot of the Freeps with their blind loyalty to a corrupt entity hidden by a thin facade of nationalistic glory. I respect you all, and have always enjoyed your posts WilliamPitt, but the level of myopia here troubles me.

[RaulVB]

49. Excellent!

Please, do write your opinions more often!

Thanks.

[liam97]

51. Agree

Even Kerry seems to wish that all his exposed but he shd be spared of having to take office through a challenge - an unsustainable position. Either fraud is exposed and consequences follow or we give up now.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

53. My sentiments exactly

Though you said it better than I could have.

[jagsd01]

57. Call our Senators !!!!!!!!

Let's call our Senators.....urge them not to certify the Ohio electors...

[liam97]

58. YES

Great idea

[Fescue4u]

59. Why not. We won the last 4.

1992,1996,2000 and 2004.

Its just getting everyone else to recognize the truth, thats the problem.

[Razorback_Democrat]

62. When fraud is proven we have to MARCH ON WASHINGTON!

like they did in Ukraine!

a few million people marching on Washington would get some attention

But what if 10 times that were marching nationwide?

Demanding a re-vote or some other resolution, ????

It would have to happen fast

It would have to happen before the inaugeration

otherwise it would just be another, albeit really big, demonstration

We have to get these fuckers out of there or there will be no democracy!!!!!

[Griffy]

63. I was there Sunday.. only 10 others :( we need MSM to ..

get the numbers we need in the time we got... Next election we can have protests rdy to go! I believe VERY strongly in winning THIS fight.. but there WILL be another round if they win, count on it!

[4democracy]

65. I agree , we should plan now for a march on Washington

[Igel]

64. Yep, I do.

Dems will take the WH in '08. Bush lacks an heir. But it won't be Hillary; don't know who it'll be. Don't think it'll be Kerry. Americans don't like having the same party in control of both houses of congress and the presidency (and yes, there are counterexamples).

BBV will largely be gone; many counties haven't used their HAVA funds. Remember that the WH has little to say to counties about what equipment they use; the state legislatures do. Others will find money to provide a paper trail. It won't be like a lot think (with a take-away bit; illegal under current OH law), but there'll be a paper record of some sort for recounting in most precincts. It just takes one court in one state to force software to be open and above board.

So will I be ignored or flamed for optimism, on this incredibly peppy and forward thinking thread?

[procinderella]

67. we've got better hackers

I'm not advocating it. But, you too can hack the election in a step by step handy do-it-yourself reference guide:
http://www.legjoints.com/DirtyHacks

If there is a next election, the Republicans are going to wonder why THEY didn't take up this cause. They are in for a rude surprise.

And there are many more upset computer geeks.

[liam97]

68. People don't seem ready to march

how about a full page ad calling attention to the Ohio lawsuit?

[november3rd]

75. Government by the consent of the governed

It's up to the people to accept or reject the results of this election any way we want. Bush and the politicians in Washington, Ohio and the other states are working for us and will do our bidding under the law or will be replaced, legally and consensually by the people, who are sovereign.

[RaulVB]

76. Kick

[IndyOp]

77. Election Reform Starts by Taking Back THIS Election!

It is not so much about getting John Kerry in the White House, for me, it is about getting OUR White House back!

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1429568&mesg_id=1429568>

:kick:

:kick:

:kick:

[pointsoflight]

78. No need to argue though. Same means to different goals.

If your hope is to overturn the election, an investigation is needed right now.

If your hope is to push electoral reform for future elections, an investigation that uncovers the problems right now, while the public is still thinking about the election, is the best way to push that.

So let's set aside our differences and focus on what we all have in common--the need to count every vote and investigate all suspicious patterns and activities.

[bardgal]

82. WELL SAID - we've had THREE stolen elections IN A ROW....

And they've just gotten better at doing it!!!! We let this slide now, and it's OVER.

If we don't get back to paper ballots, with PEOPLE HAND COUNTING THEM, IN THE OPEN, you can forget about honest and fair elections in the future. PERIOD.

Sure it's still not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot harder to commit fraud on such as massive scale as e-voting affords.

WAKE UP!!!