Dumbass fireman from LaCrosse needs a dog

[eauclaireliberal]

Wisc. Hunter Wants Open Season for Cats

MADISON, Wis. -- Hunter Mark Smith welcomes wild birds on to his property, but if he sees a cat, he thinks the "invasive" animal should be considered fair game.

The 48-year-old firefighter from La Crosse has proposed that hunters in Wisconsin make free-roaming domestic cats an "unprotected species" that could be shot at will by anyone with a small-game license.

His proposal will be placed before hunters on April 11 at the Wisconsin Conservation Congress spring hearings in each of the state's 72 counties.

"I get up in the morning and if there's new snow, there's cat tracks under my bird feeder ... I look at them as an invasive species, plain and simple," Smith said. <<<

What this piece doesn't mention-and never will, of course-is that sick fucks like these are the ones who diliberately swerve from lane to lane just to hit a cat.

[Warpy]

1. Mothballs

Sprinkle them on the ground under the bird feeder. Kitty will go elsewhere.

Cats are hard on songbirds, there's no getting around that. The world is a rough place for cats, no getting around that, either.

People who love their feline companions should consider keeping them confined for those two reasons.

Shooting them is extreme, though. I hope this asshole goes down in flames. If he's really annoyed, he should trap the animal and let the local animal control people deal with it. At least, if there's an owner, the owner could be persuaded to keep the kitty indoors and safe.

[rzemanfl]

2. Lived in Wisconsin and have seen people shoot and try to run

over feral cats.

[northzax]

3. eh, why not?

seriously, feral cats are, in fact, an invasive species to Wisconsin. they are not part of the ecosystem. If there is a classification in the law that allows for licensed hunting of invasive species, why allow that ant not feral cats? (or wild dogs, for that matter?) why keep feral cats as a special class?

I'm not saying shoot people's house cats, it's not that difficult to tell the difference, even at 100 feet, from a feral cat and a misplaced house cat. (at least until the house cat has been outside in the wild for a couple of days)

If the onus is then on the hunter to know for sure if the animal is a wild animal or a stray, wild or feral one, I support it. What is, in reality, the difference between a feral cat and another invasive species, like a coyote? Both are unnatrual predators. Both can carry diseases uncommon to the local ecosystem. Why give cats, simply because of their previous generational status as a house pet, special accomodation?

Now if what you're arguing is that invasive species should not be hunted, I'll isten, but if you are arguing that cats are some special species, then you are, in my opinion, way off base.

By the by, here is a list of the officialy recognized invasive species in Wisconsin: http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/er/invasive/animals.htm

[Viking12]

7. Exactly!

In 1993 there were more than 1.4 million free ranging cats that killed at the very least 7.3 million birds.

Coleman, J. and S. Temple. 1993. Rural residents' free-ranging
cats: A survey. Wildl. Soc. Bull. 21:381-389.

It is not about hating cats or being cruel to animals. It is about controlling an invasive specie.

[sybylla]

9. Problem is, feral cats can look just like pets

Male cats can roam for a week or two at a time in search of mates. Whether one escapes from a house or lives on a farm with the ability to wander at will, by the time they return from their sexual escapades, they can look quite sickly and filthy.

My biggest concern is how the DNR will codify the exact situation in which a cat can be killed. Will it be collars or no collars? I've never been on a farm that had collars on their cats. And some cats escape by shucking a collar. How on earth will they expect "hunters" to diferentiate between feral and pet? I mean sometimes it's obvious an sometimes its not.

And I think it is ridiculous to add this to the hunting laws and license people to hunt cats. We already have nuisance animal laws on the books that allow anyone to "remove" from their property by most any means nuisance animals from voles and moles to skunks and possums. Wouldn't it be simpler to add feral cats and dogs to this list with a penalty for killing someone's pet - in case a neighbor decides to use the law to settle a dispute?

Plus, I think a corollary to this ought to be a law that seriously fines people for dumping problem animals outside of town rather than taking them to a shelter. It's city-bred fools who think an animal is better off with a chance at life in the "wild" than doomed in an animal shelter to a likely but rather humane death.

[northzax]

14. but that's basically what they want to do

under the invasive species law, licensed hunters can kill invasive species on their property, but the obligation is on THEM to demonstrate that it was an invasive species.

[WTheClouds]

4. OMG, it was just on Dan Abrams!

Whack, huh?

[Broca]

5. Unfortunately, the humane society shelters are full up

and don't have the funding to even touch a problem like this. Too bad some birth control method (other than expensive physical neutering) cannot be found for out of control populations of non-indigenous critters like cats, horses, pigs, etc. The other thread on this in du general discussion racked up about 250 posts in a day.

It is Question number 62 on the conservation congress agenda and is defined in greater length at:
http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/congress/sh/cca/index.htm

Do you favor the DNR take steps to define free roaming feral domestic cats by the previously mentioned definition and list free roaming domestic feral cats as an unprotected species?

[Lisaben2619]

6. Here's another opinion:

http://www.wisinfo.com/postcrescent/news/archive/opinion_20128636.shtml


Smith says: “If I’m in the woods and see a cat that doesn’t have a collar, then I could shoot it. It gives people some leeway if they want to remove cats. … If I catch a cat in the yard in a live trap, I should be able to put that animal down.”

One of the problems, however, with feral cats is that if they are brought to the shelters in a very sick condition or are starving, they have to be held for a time before euthanized (unless the law was changed and I either didn't know or forgot). This means that they are taking up room that an adoptable animal could be in.

[Dying Eagle]

8. Its sick

That is my biggest problem with living in Wisconsin is the non-stop bombardment I get about HUNTING (Family, people at work, T.V sportscasts). Its a stupid waste of time. Its cruel and most people that do it are inhuman ASSHOLES!!

I am sick of redneck hunters having to feel like they can shoot ANYTHING that moves just because they are trying to compensate for a small "barrel."

Did I mention I HATE HUNTING!!

[sybylla]

10. Careful with the rather broad brush, please.

I, too, have met my share of inhumane assholes (hunters, rednecks, city folk or whatever) for whom I feel nothing but disgust. But, as a hunter, I know few who hunt merely for the sake of killing something without regard for the animal. I'm not saying this as evidence of anything except that there are good and bad in every group. And it's really easy to point at the few bad and extrapolate it to the whole. The press does it to DU all the time.

I appreciate that you "hate hunting." But I ask you to consider that not all hunters are created equally low.

IMHO, feral cats are a problem but this is not the right way nor the most effective way to deal with it. As I hunter, I doubt you'll take my two cents as worth anything.

[Viking12]

11. You've raised some good points

In both of your posts in this thread you ask some tough, necessary questions in this discussion. I would like to hear more about your views to solve the problem of free roaming cats. For instance you claim, "this is not the right way nor the most effective way to deal with it." So what is?

Realistically, the hunting of cats already happens. The way I see it, this law would only decriminalize current behavior. Perhaps, as you mentioned, it should be folded in to animal nuisance statutes rather than hunting statues.

[sybylla]

12. I don't think it's the right way for four reasons

1) legally defining what constitutes a feral animal and the responsibility of the hunter in determining the animal is feral before shooting will be as difficult as enforcing it. There will always be grudges between neighbors about their animals that occasionally get settled with a gun. We are, or at least were, the Dairy state. Farm cats are well fed, generally collarless and roam free. If they don't, they're not very effective at controlling the mouse population. On the majority of farms, these animals are vaccinated, well cared for and often regularly checked out by vets. I'm not saying they are all good stewards of their cat populations, but will this penalize those who are? And then there are the escapees. I've never owned a pet that didn't get out at least once in the 5-20 years they lived with me, whether in apartments, homes in town or my 100+ year old country house now. Seems to me we may risk killing more pets than feral animals if we don't do this right.

2) it doesn't address the feral animal issue in suburban and semi-urban areas where you can't use guns. Sure, most of these areas are served by animal control agenices, but I live in the middle of nowhere and there are subdivisions popping up all over whose only animal control agency is the local sheriff if you can even get them to do anything about it. What used to be open farm land separated by patches of woods is now large clusters of homes divided by patches of woods. Hunting anything safely will be difficult in these areas. Seems to me, that makes "hunting" feral cats only a partial solution.

3) it gives people who say "all hunters are inhumane assholes" more amunition. It reinforces an image of hunters gathering in packs, guns in hand, drooling at the chance to chase animals through the woods. Hunters know it doesn't happen that way, but that's the image it sends and as a hunter, I think in only further debases our public image which in turn prevents environmentalist organizations from joining in the effort. With their support or even assistance in creating effective control and elimination efforts, we might get more done in this regard. Seems to me that, too, makes "hunting" feral cats only a partial solution.

4) feral cats are nuisance animals. We want them eliminated from the landscape like purple loosestrife, not managed like coyotes, deer or rabbits. The DNR is moderately effective at regulating a population but totally ineffective at eliminating it (think chronic wasting disease...and purple loosestrife). Though you need a small game license to kill some nuisance animals, we still have plenty of them around (skunks, opossums, etc.) If this is truly a serious problem, and I agree it is in certain parts of the state, then I think it needs to be addressed more seriously with a plan to actively eliminate them, not just a plan that gives someone with a grudge against the neighbor's cat an excuse to kill it. Seems to me, this also makes "hunting" feral cats only a partial solution.

I agree, the hunting of cats already happens and it would decriminalize current behavior while injecting a minimum of regulation into it. But because most hunters put money and effort into hunting to put food on the table, I expect few people will make the concerted effort to reduce the wild cat populations. And this doesn't even begin to address the Hmong. With their reputation, deserved or not, for consuming pets and violating hunting laws, what impact will this have on community relations with them?

If the more passive approach of hunting feral cats (and I say passive because I just don't see large groups of people expending the effort to remove feral cats from our countryside) was matched with an educational effort on the problem and the need for removal as a solution, I might change my mind. But I don't see the DNR spending that kind of money on a problem that doesn't bring in more money in return. And what environmentalist organization will step forward to endorse the "hunting" of feral domestic cats from our environment? It would be a PR nightmare even for the Audubon Society.

I don't pretend to know what the most effective solution is. I think a half measure and a bloody nose to hunters is better than nothing. But I'm pretty sure that's all we're going to get out of our money-hungry DNR.

If I can squeeze it into my schedule, I'll go to the local meeting. While they're at it, I think they should add feral dogs as well. In my neck of the woods, wild dog packs are a much bigger problem. I'm curious to hear what everyone will have to say at the meeting but I'm afraid it will turn into a rather heated and somewhat nasty argument in which nothing will get resolved. It seems to be an exceedingly polarizing issue - just like the great Mourning Dove debacle. Most likely we'll all come away bloody in the end.

[Viking12]

13. Great, thanks.

The only point with which I disagree is your first (and then only in part). MPR interviewed UW-Madison conservation biologist Stan Temple the other day. According to his research, cats aren't commonly kept at farms on purpose. When asked why they have free roaming cats, most farmers in his study responded, "because I can't get rid of them." Of course there are those that keep cats intentionally and others that keep cats as pets too which can lead to the sort of differentiation problems you identify.

I spend a lot of time in the field, hiking & bird watching mostly but occasional hunting as well (I intend to become a more serious turkey hunter over the next few years). There is a real problem with cats. if nothing else, hopefully this proposal will raise awareness and lead to some postive repsonse.

Thnaks for your time and thoughtful input.

[sybylla]

15. I see your point

But I would speculate that a fourth or fifth generation farmer may not know or understand the point in having cats on a farm. I would also speculate that if cats were all taken away, within a year or to at most, many of those farmers would be singing a different tune.

Just a few examples why:

- my dad has a kennel at his rural home. He is surrounded by crop fields. He has to routinely place rat and mouse poison in the kennel or before long his dogs are losing their food and their health to the rodents. And when I say rats, I'm not talking skinny lab rats. We're talking 18" nose to tail. It's more of a problem in the winter when there is little to eat in the fields. And of course he has to be careful what kind of poison he gets or the rodents will share it with the dogs, leaving them sick or dead as well.

- at my country house surrounded on all sides by fields for at least a quarter mile, I have small animals and kids at my house so I don't use poison for mice. I have cats. Now, I still have to put out traps in fall to catch the rush indoors but most years I trap between 5 and 10 mice. That's over a twelve month period even with cats who regularly leave me evidence of their successes as well. The late summer and fall of 2003 ended horribly dry here. It was the first time I ever saw farmers plow corn fields into dust. There was no moisture in the ground for more than the depth of the plow. Last year, from August to February, we trapped more than 50 mice. I stopped counting at 32 in November and there were some weeks we were getting more than two a day. The ground was too dry to support them for the winter and the poor things had to go somewhere. Now I don't even have anything to draw them to my house except warmth. But my farming neighbors store grain and hay all year, if you catch my drift. I bet they were pretty grateful for their farm cats and terrier pooch.

- I am descended from farmers in different parts of this state who had (or in some cases tolerated) cats on their farm for the sole purpose of control of the rodent population. I have several relatives now in different regions of this state who continue to farm and maintain a healthy cat population and I am surrounded by neighbors who do the same. I married a farm boy who says the same is true for his family farms.

I suspect these people would laugh and shake their head at the conclusion this biologist reached. My experience so heavily contradicts the research of the conservation biologist that I'm sure you understand why I can't agree with it without much more corroboration.

Thank you for your contributions to the dialogue as well. I appreciate the chance to exchange ideas and if nothing else, I've proved it's dangerous to give a Democrat a soapbox and invite them to use it. :hi: