San Antonio Pastor Arrested After Girl Allegedly Dragged Behind Van at Boot Camp

[Ian David]

Source: WOAI

Last Update: Aug 10, 2007 4:36 PM

Posted By: Vickie Jean Summers

A San Antonio pastor was arrested Friday after a 15-year-old girl was allegedly dragged behind a van at a Christian boot camp.

Pastor Charles Flowers was taken away from his church in handcuffs and escorted to Bexar County Jail. He stands accused of assaulting one of the troubled teens he was trying to help get on the right path.

News 4 WOAI's Brian Collister spoke exclusively to Pastor Flowers right before he was taken away by police.

Flowers said he gives his Christian boot camp cadets a pep talk about character.



Read more: http://www.woai.com/mostpopular/story.aspx?content_id=e12f0eae-08bf-43cb-ae09-5895e2909584

---

Black Collar Crime

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. I really shouldn't think these horrible things.

It's just not healthy. :mad:

[Maddy McCall]

2. What a fuckhead.

I hope this ends his scam.

Christian boot camps in Mississippi have been closed for the same reason that this one will eventually be closed--inhumane treatment of troubled children.

There was much worse stuff going on at the one in Columbia, MS, though. Children were being raped and molested by camp counselors.

:grr:

[Madspirit]

3. Creepy asshole...

Most of these kids have been abused their whole lives. Same 'ol, same 'ol. Grrrrr

Lee

[rodeodance]

4. "It is not as it appears. I'm not going to comment to that issue."

.Flowers claims his purpose in life is to help them with tough love through his San Antonio ministry. But one camper says that approach went too far at a camp near Corpus Christi in June.

In an affidavit, a 15-year-old girl from San Antonio claims Flowers and one of his drill instructors tied a rope around her and dragged her behind a van when she could not finish a run.

Pictures of the teen show injuries she says got as a result of the incident.

News 4 WOAI's Brian Collister asked Pastor Flower about the teens claims.

Brian: "Did you tie her up and drag her behind a van?"

Pastor Flowers and his wife answered, "It is not as it appears. I'm not going to comment to that issue."

[pop goes the weasel]

10. Near Corpus?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_Roloff">Lester Roloff may be dead, but his evil lives on.

[formercia]

12. I'd bet he died a wealthy man

It reminded me of the school my parents sent me to, except that it was run by Nuns.

[Drum]

5. Sounds like Blackwater has already begun missions in San Diego...

:eyes:

see also: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1561865

[sarcasmo]

6. Doesn't the Christian Hate need it's own thread?

All bow to Santa Jesus.

[SecularMotion]

7. The irony is

the counselors are more troubled than the teens they are supposed to be helping.
Fuckers!
:grr:

[Speaker]

8. Kill him. n/t

[David Zephyr]

9. ...And Jesus raised his arms to his disciples saying, "Drag a child behind your vehicles..."

Just the words "christian boot camp" placed together is sickening enough.

[nealmhughes]

11. Dear Rev. Flowers, there are two meanings to the English word "suffer."

The first as in "Suffer the little children to come unto me" means ALLOW the little children.

The second meaning is to endure pain or agony, as in "The girl suffers greatly after beign dragged by a van."

If thy neighbor smite thee upon thy right cheek, turn unto him thy left, return good for evil, etc. etc. etc.

Guess he missed that part of passive resistance in Rabbi Yeshua bar Yusef's philosophy. . .

[Cat Herder]

13. How many people were employed by Love Demonstrated?

Last year, Love Demonstrated Ministries reported private and government contributions totaling $314,673 to operate the boot camp, with nearly 89 percent of the costs, $278,549, going for salaries.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[theredpen]

15. Q: What do you believe caused the girls' injuries?

I'm willing to be skeptical about this story. I think that after what happened in Jasper awhile back, people wouldn't do any kind of "dragging behind a truck."

Sorry to hear you had to endure "Christian Boot Camp." I've never heard anything positive about these kinds of places.

[FoxHound]

16. "WATERPARK"

Usually, at some point in the camp, the "trainees" (What the drill instructors called us) would all fall apart, and fight and argue, and get in a butt load of trouble.

It always happens.

Well, the ultimate punishment is called T.I. Ybarra's "WaterPark"

A grueling event that usually lasts from the early afternoon until sundown before bed.

It is possible she got her injuries there, as I puked twice, had scrapes all on my arms, bloody hands, blisters and bruised shins/knees.

What happens? They make us all fall out outside, and get on our hands and knees. We BEAR CRAWL for miles, on hot cement and pavement (this would rip flesh from our hands), while the TI's would spray us in our faces with a water hose, and make us roll in nearby mud for what seemed forever.

Then they make us get up, do grueling "calisthenics"....i.e, hardcore excercise,then roll in the grass, and roll. We couldnt stop rolling or we'd get punished. Then theyd make us run for miles, then repeat the bear crawl, mud, excercise, rolling, and running until sunlight dissapeared.

Thats a VERY GOOD POSSIBILITY.

Or, her fellow trainees beat her up. Theres a LOT of tension in the camps, and a lot of the trainees are juvenile delinquents that are one step from going to jail

any more questions?

[theredpen]

17. "We couldnt stop rolling or we'd get punished." -- How?

I ask because you said that "Waterpark" is the "ultimate punishment." If you stop doing the activities mandated by Waterpark, what is the further punishment? More Waterpark?

I'm not trying to imply that the further punishment must be dragging behind a truck, because I'm a still skeptical of that story. It is too similar to the crime that happened in Jasper ten years ago — that story still resonates in the national media and is the perfect image needed to invoke righteous fury against the alleged perpetrators. That's suspiciously convenient.

That said, I think that making someone bear crawl for miles without gloves or other appropriate gear/clothing is already abusive enough that these people shouldn't have been allowed to force the kids to do it.

I hope there isn't a rush to judgment and that justice is served either way. The girl's injuries should tell their own story. If her scrapes occurred while she was dragging herself, they'd have been different from scrapes she'd have gotten being dragged.

[FoxHound]

18. You CAN'T quit

If you refused to go further in waterpark, they'll just "pin" you, like the girl in the article stated. It really, really hurts, and I doubt anyone can resist longer than 3 minutes. If them screaming at you doesn't get you to do what is mandated, getting pinned would.

They have all sorts of punishments. Like, UpHill Susie... and alot of other things. You cant quit. You just cant. Its better for you if you just tough it out. If you show one sign of resistance or any sign of breaking, it'll last longer or they'll pin you until you do what you're told.

The TI's have basically permission to "rough us up" if they chose to. Our parents signed away a waiver. They never did that, but they could have.

But I've been there, and I know many ppl who have too... and we can ALL agree, that the whole dragging business doesnt sound like Pastor Flowers at ALL. Sure I dislike the guy, but I know him (unlike most of y'all) and I know this isn't something he'd do. Either the girl is lying, and it was from waterpark, and he isnt commenting on it (for good reasons... that shit sucks)...
or maybe he did SOME form of what the girl is saying, but it's completely misunderstood and taken out of proportion... remember, these kids are lying, stealing, druggie juvenile delinquents. (I was there because my mom told me I didnt get into NASA camp, so I was gonna go into this military boot camp to get experience for when I go into the military)

[Cat Herder]

19. Just curious, FoxHound

Why did you get sentenced to the boot camp in the first place? I'm quite familiar with that area. The local newspaper prints the names of people charged with, not convicted of crimes every week and I never drive anywhere without setting my cruise control for the posted speed limit.

Were your pants too baggy? Were you late for school too many times? Did you cut class? Did you say a curse word that a teacher overheard in class? Did you make obnoxious noises with your hand under your armpit so many times that your teacher just couldn't stand it anymore? Did your Roman Candle accidentally land on someone's roof and start a fire? Did you roll someone's car down the street in the middle of the night just for fun? Did you tie a string of firecrackers to the tail of a farm animal that caused it to knock the front porch off of a house? Did you drive your dirt bike or ATV on someone's ranch without permission? Did you and your buddies get caught drinking under age or smoking wacky tabacky at a fork in the road with the headlights on while you partied with your stereos turned up too loud? Did your cruise private property just one too many times? Did you have a turf war fight at the local Sonic? DID YOU WEAR A MARILYN MANSON TEESHIRT TO HEB?

Did you really deserve to earn the reputation as a survivor of that boot camp?

Also, did you make new friends while you were at that boot camp? Are they your buddies now? Do you and your buddies still sneak around and do things that many kids do while both of their parents are working and they are absolutely bored shit-less?

Do you think that some of the kids that were in boot camp might have had a better chance at not returning if they'd been taught how to excel at what they do best instead of crawl on their hands and knees on pavement while they were hosed down?

[FoxHound]

20. :)

lol priceless

Naw, I explained in my last post why I was there.

I got the lame ass excuse from my parents that I didn't get into NASA camp, soI HAD to go to a camp, and they learned about this boot camp and thought it was a good idea to prepare me for my military career -_- lucky me. I'm in the Air Force Academy now, btw so... yeah

Anyways... I WENT INTO the camp with a friend from School. HE was there because his parents got tired of his... activities... and wanted to set him straight. He and I were like... the most innocent people there lol compared to the rest of them.

Yeah, we made a couple of friends... I don't keep track of them anymore, because Im in college now, away from Texas.

Well, they did teach us a lot of boring lessons and lecture us for hours... so in a way, after that camp, it was our fault if we reverted. They do a pretty convincing job of making sure we know what we did, and how to fix it... most of us just didnt give a shit

[Cat Herder]

21. So, Foxhound

Were you really surrounded by druggie children? Because if you were, don't you think the children would have been better off in a rehabilitation program than being forced to crawl on their hands and knees on the pavement while being hosed down with a water hose? Is it even legal for parents to sign a waiver to force their child to crawl on their hands and knees on the pavement while being hosed down with a water hose?

Do you really believe that demoralizing a child is a good way to keep them from leading a life of crime?

Were there any activities that might have given the children a chance to focus on the things that they excelled at?

You HAD to go to a camp? There are so many legendary camps that are less than hour from where you lived that I can't even count them on both of my hands and my feet and you CHOSE to go to a boot camp?

[FoxHound]

23. calm the fuck down buddy... take it down a peg

Listen, this is a forum... not an interrogation room. Or is it?
I'm here to answer questions, not to get drilled with sarcastic, seemingly rhetorical questions.

Anyways... you obviously LACK the image of what a regular boot camp trainee is.

Ok... picture this...
your average immoral high school teen. Notice I said average immoral teen, not the average teen...
usually theyre involved in a gang , or are tied in gangs. Have a lot of experience in drugs and crimes... and theyre pretty much kids you dont become friends with unless you share their beliefs of selfishness and self-gratification.

These are your "attitude" teens. Rehab? Shit... these kids have been there before... and they dont CARE...

These kids deserved boot camp. Minus the cruelty, they deserved it. I'd ship them off to a Marines Basic Training to set them straight...
anyways... MINUS the water hose, that shit we did wasn't anything unoridnary that a lot of football coaches wouldnt do on their players if they screwed up or something... I've heard stories from football players about doing bear crawls, running miles, rolling.. (minus the mud and hose, ofcourse)... so get that into your head... its not the physicality of it, but just the disrespectful shit like hosing you down or degrading you... that shit sucked... :/

And thats not all we did... they didnt JUST hammer us and demoralize us. They lectured us every fucking day...atleast 4-6 hours a day about values, morals, citizenship, religion and whatnot... so they did their counseling part too.

And I effing told you man. I didnt CHOOSE to go there. Read posts completely. My mom wanted me to get experience for my future military career. And to be honest, it did. It got me in shape, and desentisized to people screaming in my face


dont get me wrong... im not defending that camp. I hated it, and disliked all the leaders. But I dont like the idea for people going down into a shithole for something that can be easily misunderstood. So if you guys got anymore questions, ask away... and dont patronize me... I'm just a simple Air Force Academy student, living in a post-boot camp world ^_^

[Smarty Pants Liberal]

24. n/t

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FoxHound]

27. Oh, I laugh

Hahahhaha

Ok, ok man. Calm down.

"Give it up, Foxhound. I'm only warming up."?

Hahhaa... I can see you're one of those kiddies that enjoy spending their time on forums "arguing" with strangers on the internet so that you feel special and intelligent.

Ok, whatever floats your boat. I'm not here to argue with you over rhetorical analysis or over definitions or personal beliefs, which I did not ask you about because I'm not a jackass.

You can go ahead and have fun pretending you're accomplishing a lot by arguing... you can go ahead and be a loser all by yourself...over there in the corner. It takes two to argue, and I don't care much for your.... personality

Anyways, now that he's out of the way... is there anyone out there with a SERIOUS question. About how the camp runs, what goes on there, what they made us do, how things develop among trainees, and whatnot...
the brainwashing propaganda given unto us and whatnot....

Feel free to ask, because I am here to clarify, so that you are informed before judging something you know not of. Even though, you're probably going to hate it even more after what I have to say (I hated it too). The only reason I give Flowers the benefit of the doubt, is because I know he's not that stupid. Not really

[theredpen]

28. Thanks for the info

I have one further question, if you'd care to answer it: Does the revelation that there was a corroborating witness change your opinion at all? I didn't think that even the worst "bubba cops" in Texas would arrest anyone on the say-so of a teenage drug addict, so the witness seems pretty key. Do you think things changed since you were there? How long ago was that? (OK, that's three questions.)

Anyway, thanks for providing your personal insight and congrats on getting into the Air Force Academy. I assume you're starting classes now.

Go Airforce! :)

[FoxHound]

29. Hmmm

A key witness does seem interesting. There's a chance this might be true, but all in all I am open to the possibility of it being a lie.

I mean, when I was there, we planned to exaggerate to authorities about tales of what the TI's did to us, to get them arrested and get us out. We never came through and did as we wanted, but... we planned it. So, I know it's POSSIBLE. But if what he did is true, then I'd be really surprised. He wouldnt go too far. He'd push the edge, but not break the law.

Theres a chance things might have changed. I was in the Summer 2005 camp, and 2 years is enough time for the camp to grow. We were based at a school when we were at boot camp, so... its possible.

Thank you for your honest questions, and lack of douchebaggery
Much appreciated

[Cat Herder]

30. Brainwashing propaganda

I don't care much for your personality either but I'm glad to see you change the tone of your posts since you came storming in telling people to shut the hell up and calm the eff down. Pretty jackass of YOU and Foxhound, you DID reveal your personal beliefs.

Ok... picture this...
your average immoral high school teen. Notice I said average immoral teen, not the average teen...
usually theyre involved in a gang , or are tied in gangs. Have a lot of experience in drugs and crimes... and theyre pretty much kids you dont become friends with unless you share their beliefs of selfishness and self-gratification.

But since you brought it up, please do tell about the brainwashing propaganda given unto you. We're all eyes.

And Foxhound, I don't post a whole heck of a lot, I typically just read posts. I've spent a lot of time with kids who've been sentenced with probation, boot camp and TYC, and have found that none deserved WATERPARK, to be demoralized or brainwashed. Was telling someone last week about a child I saw recently at one of the mandatory classes that kids on probation have to attend who didn't look a day over 8 years old sitting with his mother coloring in a tablet. I wanted to ask what he did to wind up on probation but spent time comforting a young girl and her family who was terrified that she would have to go to prison and that she would be abused like the children in TYC. When you talk to most of the children, they wound up in trouble for doing the same things I did when I was a child, only difference is that I didn't get sentenced to probation, boot camp or TYC if I blew off detention.

So if you think I'm a douchebag and a loser for caring about children then I feel it's very likely that you're a freeper.

Oh and what makes you think I'm a he? Would it make it o.k. if I did the nasty with someone of the same sex and I were a she?

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Smarty Pants Liberal]

32. You did call Cat Herder a he in your last post

just sayin'

[FoxHound]

35. uh...huh

Just repeating what I said to...
Enron-Bush?


"Oh, and about the "he" thing... sorry, it's habit. I didn't INTENTIONALLY think you were a he. It's like when someone sees a person's dog and asks what is his/her name? And the owner corrects them and states the correct sex. A LOT of us have a bias, and pick a certain sex to name first. It's habit, not ignorance I swear"

[Cat Herder]

33. Weimar

I've never claimed to know anything and assuming really doesn't make one a super genius at all. In fact, it sets you up for failure if you're not careful.

You did actually call me a he in your previous post. And though I just about posted something snarky about your reading comprehension skills or you memory or the fact that I think you're not the original poster anymore, I refrained per your request to not act like such a douchebag.

As I wrote before, I'm very familiar with the area where the boot camp is and the towns that sentence children to that boot camp. I do have roots that are very deep in that area.

I'm sorry that the questions that I ask upset you so much and do feel that if you and I were to meet face to face that we could have a civil conversation as long as you didn't turn into the school yard bully that you have almost every time that I've found fault with your logic.

You did confirm however exactly what I'd heard about religious boot camps by explaining the brainwashing propaganda and for that, thank you very much.

You see Foxhound, I was raised in a Christian family and my ancestors built or helped build more than a couple of the churches in that area and we were always taught to treat children with kindness, even if they broke the law. Some were ministers, some thought they were ministers and quite a few of my relatives sit on the boards or teach Sunday School at those churches today. Some even visit prisons once a week to provide ministry to the inmates. We're tired of being bullied by people like you and we're tired of the laws that people like you write to ensure that there are plenty of inmates to fill the "faith based" programs. Contrary to the way we were raised, we're not making nice anymore by just ignoring people like you and hoping that you'll change if we just lead by example. We're confronting people like you and exposing the truth. Believe me, it's not easy to do and it goes against everything we've been taught. We won't stoop to your level though and participate in your bullying. We will not stop questioning people like you publicly and we will not stop exposing the GOP for manipulating Christians with their propaganda anymore because it is much too dangerous to stay quiet anymore.

Weimar, Texas is just up the road and thank goodness many of the people from the area know what happened in Weimar, Germany. In fact, many came here BECAUSE of Weimar, Germany and theologians like Hirsch and Gogarten. We're pretty tolerant though mostly conservative, like less government and would really just like to be left alone and leave others alone but passivity is no longer an option.

RedPen asked three questions in a previous post and RedPen asked nicely and even complimented you. Are you going to answer RedPen's questions or will you continue to evade the questions by singling me out as a douchebag forum arguer?

[FoxHound]

34. ...

"A key witness does seem interesting. There's a chance this might be true, but all in all I am open to the possibility of it being a lie.

I mean, when I was there, we planned to exaggerate to authorities about tales of what the TI's did to us, to get them arrested and get us out. We never came through and did as we wanted, but... we planned it. So, I know it's POSSIBLE. But if what he did is true, then I'd be really surprised. He wouldnt go too far. He'd push the edge, but not break the law.

Theres a chance things might have changed. I was in the Summer 2005 camp, and 2 years is enough time for the camp to grow. We were based at a school when we were at boot camp, so... its possible.

Thank you for your honest questions, and lack of douchebaggery
Much appreciated"


THAT Up there was a post i made rpelying to him... so please mind your ownbusiness and quit trying to sound like a forum messiah smartass.

Yeah, I'm sorry about the way I came into this thread, but you have to understand that posters in this thread were JUST as stupid, rude and ignorant. "Fucker..." "Creepy Asshole"... were all kinds of posts made about this guy, that they never even MET. I know this guy. He's tough, mean, but not some psycho killer... and people in here were judging him as if they knew him, and I just wanted all the ignorant haters to stfu, and actually ASK about him, and THEN hate him, rather than blindly hate someone.
Do you get what I mean? And I'm not a jackass for storming in here like that... I'd DEFINITELY be one if I came in here, and people were being civil... lol but they WEREN'T. Do you atleast get what I'm saying?


Ahahah. You do have a point. My memory isn't so sharp recently. You have to understand that I skimthis thread once or twice a day (I think). My mind is so crammed with useless facts, knowledge about airplanes, generals, quotes, and whatnot... its hard to keep track of things, especially this forum (which isnt a real priority for me, you know). Oh, and about the "he" thing... sorry, it's habit. I didn't INTENTIONALLY think you were a he. It's like when someone sees a person's dog and asks what is his/her name? And the owner corrects them and states the correct sex. A LOT of us have a bias, and pick a certain sex to name first. It's habit, not ignorance I swear ;)



Personal beliefs? Wth, man. You didnt live with these people for a month. Is it bad to think that I shouldn't associate with people who rob gas stations, d illegal activities and dont abide by the law of the land? Does that make me a bad person for disliking (not hating) them for treating me liek an outsider for not sharing in their beliefs of self-gratification? (once again... not masturbation -_-...but selfishness, materialism, etc etc)
Ok. You have fun with that, and being ok with their beleifs. You go ahead and partake. Count me out. I'm not going to shove my beliefs down their throats, like they did to me. (Note that down...)

I'm not a bully lol. Its quite the opposite, you are. We all have our own diff. point of views... so obviously you're mind is closed and will not listen to my opinion on that, and same with me. So why bother make accusations on the internet? Its stupid. We're not accomplishing anything. So stick with the questions, and enough with the "OH IMA LOOK IN YO THRED AND LOOK FOR ERR0RS AND FAULTS TO CRITICIZE YOU FOR TO MAK ME FEEL SPECUL"
It's...pointless ^_^

Thanks for being a hypocrite and accusing me of beliefs I dont really partake in... this "Neo-conservative" fundamentalist christianity? Yeah... I kinda refrain from associating with their kind. You go ahead and make more accusations. Lets play pretend and make everything you have to say/accuse absolute truth and nothing else can be right whatsoever except your golden doctrine gospel.

[Cat Herder]

36. You're right

You did answer the question.

And I don't agree with much of anything you've written because I would like to see the corrections system and the people who write the laws addressing what makes a child become a member of a gang or would rob a gas station in the first place. I've met some young people who were pretty desperate when they committed the crimes that they did. Maybe their parents were divorced or one of the parents was already in prison and the child had younger siblings that needed to eat. Maybe the parents were not home as much as your parents were because they didn't have the skills to work a normal 9-5 job to earn the income that would meet the family's needs. Or maybe there was once a job in their town where they could earn a living to support the entire family but their job was outsourced to another country. Or maybe they found they just couldn't compete with the corporate farms and ranches anymore but didn't want to move to the city. So maybe they were working multiple jobs or spending a long time commuting. I met a woman last week who left the house every morning at 7:00 a.m. and didn't return until after 11:00 p.m. Maybe they'd been singled out and humiliated by a teacher at school for a reading comprehension problem or dyslexia and they found comfort in being a member of a gang because they were so angry with their teacher. Or maybe they went to school with a person like you that scared the tar out them with their aggression and they felt comfortable knowing their friends in a gang could whip your tail. I'm not saying that some kids don't need to be in a correctional facility but overall, I think the system is broken.

We're both passionate about our points of view and it's doubtful that we will be able to have a civil exchange. I don't think any of the posters in this forum are ignorant or stupid though for blowing off some steam about this incident. And for the folks who know me well, I have a strong command of curse words and the eff word is absolutely one of my favorites.

If you were a fundamentalist Christian you wouldn't have such a potty mouth. Your style though is the same as the ones who crafted the brilliant idea to manipulate Christians into believing that they were fighting for God.

As I said before, I rarely post. You win, I'll stop playing with you now and take my toys and go home. I'd say its probably doubtful that you did much to persuade many people to feel as good as you do about the Rev with your approach though.

But just for fun - I never said I was a she either. I might be devious but I'm hardly a bully.

Have a ball ripping me in your next response because I'm going back to working on something that will make a difference.

[theredpen]

22. Update: Witness on record

Bobbi Greer said she witnessed the dragging. She worked as a cook at the Nueces County Ranch, where the alleged assault happened in early June.

http://www.ksat.com/news/13869554/detail.html">The story at KSAT has been updated. I didn't see this detail published elsewhere.

[Smarty Pants Liberal]

25. Thanks for the update. n/t