Boys dies in shooting at gun club

[Courtesy Flush]

Source: Boston.com

An event at a Westfield gun club turned tragic today when an 8-year-old boy accidentally shot himself in the head and later died at a Springfield hospital, Westfield Police said.

The child's death -- caused by a fully automatic Uzi machine gun -- appears to have been an accident; but it remains under investigation, police said.

Read more: http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2008/10/boys_dies_in_sh.html

[notadmblnd]

1. Shooting pumpkins with Uzis?

What fun. Not! This was an unnecessary tragedy.

[LeftHander]

2. makes me sick....

We are really living in bizzaro world.

How tragic. Needless and foolish death.

8 year old shooting a Auto-Uzi....that is just crazy.

[ET Awful]

3. Who the HELL is the imbecile that let an 8 year-old handle an Uzi?

An Uzi isn't exactly an easily controlled weapon, those damn things bounce all over the place from recoil.

[mikeytherat]

6. My first thought, too. Jesus, the recoil in an Uzi on full-auto is intense.

mikey_the_rat

[Xenotime]

46. So full autos aren't banned? I wish somebody would explain this.

[Endangered Specie]

57. They are 'heavily restricted'...

to the point that a regular joe couldn't own one:

The relevant laws are NFA 34, GCA 68 and FOPA 86
NFA makes full autos and short barrells restricted, $200 tax stamp, full reg, fingerprints, notificaiton of local law enforcement and other rules about interstate transport

GCA 68 makes importation of non sporting firearms illegal (ie all full autos)
small clause in the FOPA makes it illegal for new full autos to be added to the legal registry.

The result is every civilian legal full auto is at least 22 years old, with that kind of fixed supply prices for them are the same price range as a new car.

It is legal for others to shoot your NFA items, so long as you are in the immediate vicinity, hence "machine gun rental"

[Xithras]

98. No, not really.

They can be purchased by anyone with a clean criminal and mental background check, several thousand dollars for the license fees, a big helping of patience, and a willingness to be randomly scrutinized by the federales for the rest of your life. Legal full auto firearms also tend to be insanely expensive, so you'll want a fat bank account.

Then, of course, you'll have a fun time finding a place to shoot the thing. Most ranges flat out prohibit them to avoid liabilities like this tragedy.

[heliarc]

106. For your information.

http://current.com/items/87302871_machine_gun_shootout

http://www.current.com/vanguard

[slackmaster]

102. It's not too intense for an adult who is expecting it

I've fired them both with and without a shoulder stock. The weapon is actually pretty easy to handle, but it does take some strength and coordination.

[Mojorabbit]

10. I have a semi auto

uzi and it has no kick at all. It had to be a freak accident for him to shoot himself in the head. What an awful thing to happen.

[ET Awful]

15. Have you ever fired a full-auto Uzi?

I have. Trust me, an 8 year old kid should NOT be firing a full-auto Uzi.

[zonkers]

17. I think Dr. Spock would agreee this is sound parenting advice.

[michreject]

68. Shooting a FA UZI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zElRsH6akgc

I've shot them. They're mild shooters. No muzzle flip.

[benEzra]

75. And this was a Micro Uzi, not a regular Uzi.

Much lighter and harder to control, IMO.

[Taverner]

91. I thought FA Uzi's were illegal?

[mikeytherat]

16. He was probably holding it one-handed, like they do in the movies.

mikey_the_rat

[ET Awful]

19. Even with two hands, an 8 year-old is unlikely to have sufficient muscle to control the recoil.

An adult couldn't get a tight shot group with a full-auto Uzi, the shots would be spread out quite a bit. A child would see the weapon climb up a great deal. Odds are the kid started firing, lost the grip with his forward hand and didn't release the trigger in a timely fashion.

[Endangered Specie]

58. also depends if he was shooting it with or without a rifle stock

[ET Awful]

62. I've never fired one with a stock, so I'm unsure how long the stock is . . .

But, depending on the length of stock, with a child, it may give them LESS control since they won't be able to reach to grip the weapon properly.

[michreject]

63. I have one

The recoil is pretty mild. They shoot hangun rounds.

[burrowowl]

112. A friend of mine was Israeli and

of course had to serve in the army, she was 5'1" and every time she fired the sub-machine gun she was knocked on her ass. She got excused from that part of the training.

An 8 year-old was given a UZI to fire by a certifIed instructor!?!?! WHO KNOWS GUNS! HE SHOULD BE PUT IN PRISON FOR NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE, AT LEAST!

[Hassin Bin Sober]

4. WTF? Letting an 8 year old handle an Uzi?

"Witnesses state that he was shooting the weapon down range when the force of the weapon made it travel up and back toward his head, where he suffered the injury," the police statement read.

The boy’s father was at the event and accompanied him to the hospital, police said.

[shadowknows69]

7. made it travel up and back toward his head

Of course it did! I can't believe the people in charge of this show would even allow this. This father just murdered his own son through stupidity.

[KneelBeforeZod]

56. Murder?

>> This father just murdered his own son through stupidity.

Murder requires intent. This is negligence, at worst -- and probably simply a tragic accident.

kbz

[shadowknows69]

89. I don't need a law lesson thanks

It was a figure of speech.

[Swagman]

5. poor little kid..but why is an 8 year old handling a Uzi ?..and at a

gun club ?

[TheCowsCameHome]

8. "force of the weapon made it travel up and back toward his head"

What does that mean? I don't understand the term.

[undeterred]

9. i guess sometimes guns DO kill people

[Courtesy Flush]

11. Zing! Excellent point! n/t

[Orsino]

12. If you look at the weapon, you'll see that its center of gravity is below the barrel.

Thus, the recoil makes the weapon rotate around the center of gravity, bringing the barrel up toward the firer. Even an M-16 firing a three-round burst will do this, though it is a heavier weapon with a longer moment arm.

[TheCowsCameHome]

14. Thank you for the explanation.

Essentially, the weapon rotated rapidly and came back facing at the boy.

What an utterly senseless tragedy - and all for shooting at pumpkins.

[benEzra]

85. Actually, the gun used was a Micro Uzi, not a regular Uzi:

which is shorter, lighter, and far more prone to muzzle flip.

[CJCRANE]

13. Recoil nt

[Terran]

33. The recoil

of each bullet must have been making the kid's arm (or arms) jerk upward. The rapid succession of bullets probably forced the barrel of the gun quickly upward. Picture the way a firehose gets out of control unless held by people who know what they're doing. I'm guessing, like others, that he was trying to use it one-handed and had it at his side. I can see how this would happen if that's what he was doing.

[WriteDown]

18. It should be noted...

that normally tha Uzi would be illegal for sale. It appears that it was only made available to be used at this pumpkin shoot.

[aikoaiko]

34. Fully automatic UZIs are perfectly legal to own if you complete the required paperwork.

This weapon could have been an illegally made or possessed firearm, but there is no indication that it was.

[WriteDown]

38. Yes....

But you need Class 3 and all that. It is almost impossible. I could be wrong, but I think you the way this event worked is that you would be loaned the weapon of your choice to shoot pumpkins.

[yardwork]

39. Eight year olds should not be allowed to handle UZIs. This obsession with guns goes too far.

[aikoaiko]

43. Its clear that this gun was too much for this child and the parent was negligent to allow it.

[pipi_k]

20. I've lived in this area all my life, and I've never

even heard of anything like this event before.

How utterly tragic

My oldest grandchild is 7, and I can't even begin to fathom why anyone in his right mind would hand a gun of that type over to a kid a year older to fire

BB guns are bad enough!


er, not that we don't have guns in our home...we do....it's just that there's no way on earth we'd ever let a grandkid get close to one, never mind fire one...

That father is going to have to live with that the rest of his life....the rest of the family may even blame him


sad all the way around.

[Bonobo]

21. Here is the website of the idiot company!

http://www.copfirearms.com/

I live in Western Mass and I had no idea such an idiotic company existed - in Amherst!!!! Jeez, it doesn't get any more liberal than Amherst! WTF!

[Crowman1979]

24. Must be a RW nutjob enclave.

Consisting of one street block.

[pinniped]

35. Thanks for the link. I guess this happened at their 2-day machine gun shootout.

The flyer states there is no age limit to shoot, and a licensed instructor accompanies you at all times.

Someone gave that kid a deadly weapon he apparently wasn't qualified to operate.

This sounds more like negligence than an accident.

Not only that, if bullets went flying, other casualties could have resulted.

[gatorboy]

36. No age limit?

These people are idiots.

[pinniped]

41. I guess the organizer has a policy of no age discrimination.

http://www.copfirearms.com/ShootingEventsMainPage.htm

[gatorboy]

47. "Goo goo"

"What did that kid say? 'shoot shoot'? Someone hand him a firearm!"

[pinniped]

51. Sadly enough, this probably does happen.

.

[iamahaingttta]

22. Sounds like a Darwin Award to me.

Not to sound unsympathetic... but I'm not feeling terribly sympathetic.
At least not towards the parents.
If shooting pumpkins with Uzis is what passes for fun these days, well...

I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut now.

[yardwork]

40. This was an 8 year old child who died. I suggest that you delete your post.

[Coventina]

55. The Darwin Awards site does give parents awards for acts of stupidity

that kill their children, thus preventing their genes from continuing.

In cases like that, it's a slap against the parents, not the children.

[iamahaingttta]

60. No... I don't think I'll do that...

While I feel a little bad for the kid, I don't feel bad for his parents.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Giving 8 year-olds Uzis is pretty stupid.
Poor kid will miss out on a nice full life, but then again, he wanted to play Rambo.

There are 8 year-olds in other countries who have guns forced into their hands and they are forced to fight.
This was not the case here, this was all completely voluntary.

[onehandle]

23. Everyone feel safe?

Safe with fully automatic machine guns on the street?

Really?

[Shardik]

25. From the sponsor's site

Irony.

This is so terribly sad on so many levels.

Our country's fascination with firearms is shameful.

[comtec]

27. Image link is still broken

do you have a hard link we can follow?
I'm curious, Where are all the gun humpers on this?
The ones that salivate so much over their firearms one might think they're having sexual relations with them.

Again... I'm all for RESPONSIBLE NON-AUTOMATIC weapon ownership (tanks fire one shot at a time, as do missile launchers LOL)
but the Uzi was deemed really fucking DANGEROUS in the 80s when it was popular!

WHO THE FUCK LETS A DANGEROUS (to adults even) WEAPON ANYWHERE NEAR A CHILD!?!?!?!?!?

Whoever set this gun day up needs to be prosecuted to the FULLEST for manslaughter, negligence, and willful stupid-fuckery!

[Shardik]

29. Here it is between the astericks.

******

[comtec]

70. sadly still not...

oh well I think I can live. I'm sure it's awful anyway.

[LynneSin]

26. Why does ANYONE in this country need a fucking Uzi

Seriously

I'm not taking away the rights of citizens to own guns but a fricking UZI?? Absolutely no fucking reason for anyone to have these gun.

Sorry, flame me to death but that's how I feel

[Endangered Specie]

52. Just to let you know... legal full auto uzis are heavily restricted

they cost $10,000+ and require a $200 tax, fingerprinting, and full registration and background checks.

A non NFA Uzi (ie one you just need a regular NICS check to buy) is semi auto only and has a 16" barrel if it is to have the folding stock, its effectively more of a 9mm carbine at that point.

[Beer Snob-50]

61. a friend who is a big nra supporter once told me..

"if i want to fucking blow up bambi with a uzi i should have the right to do so!"

and i see no reason to own one. in this case, the discussion should not be on the right to own one, but instead the intelligence of people to let an 8 year old shoot one!

[LynneSin]

82. I question the penis size of any man who would make a comment like that

Because I'm guessing it's the size of one of those lil pencils you use to fill out golf scores or you get at Ikea to right down your selection numbers.

[benEzra]

78. They're already as tightly controlled as shoulder-fired rocket launchers and 105mm howitzers

under the National Firearms Act of 1934. Which is to say, VERY tightly.

[mwb970]

28. What kind of adult would let a child handle a machine gun?

This kind of "accident" is predictable when preceded by such appallingly poor judgment on the part of the child's parents or guardian.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. What the hell?

A kid is DEAD because some stupid grownup just had to have this weapon.

[deutsey]

31. This is one of those posts I wish I never opened.

:evilfrown:

[aikoaiko]

32. Idiot parents are often the source of the tragic deaths of their children

Its not just eight year olds or full automatic UZIs either. All too often you see videos of people who give novices a handgun with a powerful load and they often come close to shooting off the top of their head during recoil.

Stupid. Tragic.

I'm so sad for the child and family.

[Eyerish]

37. Here's the flyer for the event...

C.O.P. Firearms & Training,
And the Westfield Sportsman’s Club
Presents:
Machine Gun Shoot & Firearms Expo

Saturday October 25th, 2008 9-5 PM
Sunday October 26th, 2008 9-4 PM
Rain or Shine – Covered Shooting Areas

Featuring:
Machine Gun Demos & Rentals, Line Position Rentals, Gun Rentals, FREE Handgun Lessons,
Gun Swaps & Sales, Ammunition Tent, Food, & MUCH MORE!
It’s all legal & fun – No permits or licenses required!!!!
You will be accompanied to the firing line with a Certified Instructor to guide you.
But You Are In Control – “FULL AUTO ROCK & ROLL”
Targets Include: Vehicles, Pumpkins, & other fun stuff we can’t print here!!!!!
General admission of $ 5 will be charged for all spectators and rental shooters over 16
Under 16 free admission “Free .22 Pistol & Rifle Shooting for Adults & Kids!!!
Rental prices will vary per type of firearm
Credit Cards, Cash or Checks Accepted
Directions From The Massachusetts Turnpike:
Take the Westfield Exit (#3) turn right onto Rt. 10/202 to the second traffic light.
Turn right on Notre Dame St. Follow Notre Dame to Montgomery Rd.
Turn right onto Montgomery Rd. Left on Furrowtown Rd. just after Westfield High School.
For more info, or Dealer Registration
Contact: Ed at C.O.P. Firearms [phone]
Visit us at: WWW.COPFIREARMS.COM


This is so amazingly ridiculous.....How come these people don't need a license or a permit?!?

I'm in Minnesota and this reminds me of a tragic story that happened last year where a father brought is 6 or 7 year old son out Turkey hunting with him and proceeded to shoot & kill him thinking he was a turkey. This moron had both Pot and alcohol in his system after the cops came to investigate and was trespassing. He gets charged and ends up with only 30 days in "jail". Actually he was allowed to work but he had to come back to spend his overights in jail. It's like freaking Mayberry.....

I understand the necessity for guns in very limited and certain circumstances, but something like this is just so sad & ridiculous...

[yardwork]

42. Machine gun rentals - no permits or licenses required.

There are age limits on rides at the fair, but apparently you can hand your eight year old a fully automatic weapon, no problem.

This country's priorities are screwed up.

[Endangered Specie]

53. Im going to guess thats about to change...

but a minor can fire a weapon as long as the parent is present.

[Courtesy Flush]

67. Ironically, proceeds went to a children's charity

According to the website, the event benefited Shriner's Hospital, my personal favorite charity.

[Divernan]

74. Targets Include: Vehicles, Pumpkins, & OTHER FUN STUFF we can’t print here!!!!!

OK, all you gun club members. Please explain to me what targets the "OTHER FUN STUFF WE CAN'T PRINT HERE" might possibly refer to. What comes to mind would be animals on endangered species lists or more likely, minority group members. Maybe Muslim women in burkas? Stereotypical Mexican peasants? That whackjob Young Republican woman in Pittsburgh who tried to fake a politically inspired attack by an Obama supporter. Her history of recruiting college students for YGOP was to have events involving target shooting at famous Dem. political figures, along with some kind of Catch the Wetback/Illegal Immigrant "game".

[masshole]

44. Shit, I live in Westfield, just found out about this

**Not the child involved**


more:http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/10/westfield_police_release_name.html?category=Deaths+category=Westfield

[benEzra]

87. That's an older child, with a gun much less prone to muzzle flip.

The gun in question was a Micro Uzi (which is a beast to control), not an MP5.

[Javaman]

45. an 8 year old with an uzi. we live in one fucked up nation. nt

[aikoaiko]

48. I have no problem with legal ownship of guns (even fully automatic ones), but safety is paramount

This parent and organization neglected this child and the child died.


Shooting stuff is fun, but one has to be careful.

[Endangered Specie]

54. I agree, I think the 'father' should be hauled away...

start your kid on a .22 bolt rifle, not a fully auto SMG.

[harmonicon]

49. fucking assholes

Every person that had anything to do with this kid getting his hands on an uzi, let alone condoning it, ought to go to prison for the rest of their fucking lives. If this company isn't put out of business by this, I don't know what it would take. This shit ought to be criminal. You have to be 16 - 18 to drive a car, but not shoot a fully automatic weapon? What the fuck?!?!

[ejbr]

50. Things I would let my 8 year old do before handling ANY gun

1. Drive a car
2. Drink a beer
3. watch porn
4. use curse words
5. have a fist fight
6. play tackle football
7. travel alone to meet relatives
8. view an autopsy
9. watch an "R" rated movie
10. Take a drag on a cigarette.

...as a matter of fact, my 8 year old would NEVER hold a gun! When he reaches, 16, 17, 18, then we can talk. Fucking nuts.

[KneelBeforeZod]

59. Eight isn't too young ...

>> ...as a matter of fact, my 8 year old would NEVER hold a gun! When he reaches, 16, 17, 18, then we can talk. Fucking nuts.

My son isn't 8 yet -- but I see no problem with teaching an 8-year-old to handle firearms. Accidents tend to happen from uneducated use of guns ... teaching kids appropriate gun-handling is the first safety precaution. A kid shouldn't be handling a fully-automatic weapon because they don't have the muscles to control the recoil. But, a smaller semi-automatic handgun or rifle aren't too unweildy.

Like sex, its the mystery surrounding guns that usually causes accidents. Education is the first step ... particularly in a home (like mine) that has several guns.

kbz

[gatorboy]

64. This happened at a firearm event which I assume had several firearm safety experts on hand.

Didn't seem to do much good.

[KneelBeforeZod]

72. So?

Accidents happen. Safety measures are never fool-proof -- but education is the first step, and early education is a good idea in a gun-filled environment.

People die in hundreds of ways, from hundreds of ill-concieved activities, everyday. Fires from space-heaters, carbon-monoxide poisoning from generators, goofs leaving their kids in hot cars, etc., etc., etc. Sometimes its neglect -- sometimes its just a horrible accident. It is tragic when a child dies from an accident -- but it is a severe overreaction to create preventative laws in response to every single tragic death.

You cannot legislatively outlaw accidental death.

kbz

[gatorboy]

73. The flyer for the event states a licensed instructor would be close on hand.

Just saying they obviously don't do their jobs very well at these events. Sorry you disagree.

[KneelBeforeZod]

77. Close by ...

Instructors close by cannot necessarily prevent every accident. I've sat and watched my daughter play from 5-feet away, and watched her fall, hit a table, and split her head open. It was an accident, I was supervising ... and I felt awful that I couldn't act quickly enough to prevent her injury. I cannot imagine the greif that has befallen everyone at the event ...

I'm not prepared to throw the father or the instructors into a fire because of an accident.

kbz

[gatorboy]

79. Your response makes about as much sense as your previous one.

Which is very little. You were too busy preparing your canned pro-gun speech to understand it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Did you plan ahead of time for your daughter to hit her head on the table? Of course not. It's an event you had no control over because it wasn't an event that was planned. But someone did hand this child that gun and they obviously did not take the time to supervise.


Your comparisons are ridiculous.

[RaleighNCDUer]

90. Tell the truth, now,

if it was YOUR daughter who shot herself in the head you would be suing that facility for everything they have. Because they did NOT live up to the advertisement.

This was an entirely preventable death. That place deserves to be put out of business.

[KneelBeforeZod]

94. If I were this father ...

>> if it was YOUR daughter who shot herself in the head you would be suing that facility for everything they have. Because they did NOT live up to the advertisement.

... I would be in such despair, blaming myself, that no punishment that could be heaped on me would make any difference whatsoever. I wouldn't be deflecting blame to the firing range owner. I chose to go. I chose to bring my son. I chose to allow him to shoot that particular weapon. I should've been supervising. The father is at fault, not the facility. And, I see no need to further punish the father for this tragic accident.

>> This was an entirely preventable death. That place deserves to be put out of business.

Honestly -- would you have supported putting that place out of business even before this tragedy? If so, this is just political opportunism (taking advantage of a tragic accidental death to accomplish your political ends).

The place may go out of business after this ... but, I sincerely hope not. One life has already been taken, and one family destroyed by this accident. I would not celebrate another family being destroyed financially as a family business fails, and a livelihood is lost.

There's been enough suffering from this mess ... headhunting to place blame and destroy further lives is entirely unnecessary. It was a tragic accident.

kbz

[RaleighNCDUer]

95. What makes you think that because I object to wholly preventable

firearms deaths I have a politically driven agenda?

That comment suggests that your defense of the facility is itself politically driven, not considering the actuality of what is being said.

Are you, perhaps, yet another paid shill for the NRA? Gotta jump in there and defend the gun industry against any and all criticism?

FYI, I'm a former Marine. I have my 'Expert' badges. I know a thing or two about gun safety. And when somebody, anybody, dies at a fucking shooting range SOMEBODY must be at fault. It is the MOST controlled shooting situation you can find, and somebody was NOT exerting that control. Therefore, that facility should be put out of business as a matter of public safety. Let somebody who knows what he's doing take it over.

[KneelBeforeZod]

96. I simply asked the question ...

>> What makes you think that because I object to wholly preventable firearms deaths I have a politically driven agenda?

I simply asked the question as to whether this was politically driven. I noticed you didn't answer. Would you have supported driving this location out of business even absent the tragic death of this child?

>> Are you, perhaps, yet another paid shill for the NRA? Gotta jump in there and defend the gun industry against any and all criticism?

Were you criticizing the gun industry? I thought you were criticizing a single firing range. And, no ... I'm not a shill for the NRA. Just a progressive that agrees with their assessment of my gun rights.

>> FYI, I'm a former Marine. I have my 'Expert' badges.

Semper Fi.

>> And when somebody, anybody, dies at a fucking shooting range SOMEBODY must be at fault. It is the MOST controlled shooting situation you can find, and somebody was NOT exerting that control.

Indeed. As I said, the father is at fault.

>> Therefore, that facility should be put out of business as a matter of public safety. Let somebody who knows what he's doing take it over.

Public safety? One death does not a public safety hazard create. It was a tragic accident.

kbz

[geckosfeet]

116. The question WAS answered. It is a public safety hazard if the public is getting killed.

The business was negligent.

One death - which you characterize as an accident is actually negligence. For this eight year old it was one death too many.

An accident is a car sliding on black ice. Lightning hitting a tree which falls on you. Getting attacked by a shark. Shooting yourself in the head on a gun range in the presence of "qualified instructors" is negligence.

Gun shops, ranges and associations should be the embodiment of safety and proper gun procedure. If we can't count on them to police themselves then we will do it for them.

I agree with NC. If these folks can't run their shop without people shooting themselves in the head they should be put out of business or have their licenses yanked. It's not political, it's common sense.

To defend these people as victims of an accident is untenable. The child was a victim of their negligence, and you are defending them. That's ok - cause they will need lots of lawyers if they keep this shit up. You will have a great source of income defending these ass-clowns.

on edit: added in the presence of "qualified instructors"

[brentspeak]

92. This was not an "accident"; it was negligence

Also, labeling as an "overreaction" legislation that would save lives is bizarre in the extreme. Taking a sledgehammer to a car when it breaks down is "overreacting"; taking as many steps necessary to preserve human life is not.

[KneelBeforeZod]

93. No ... it was an accident ...

>> This was not an "accident"; it was negligence

No -- it was an accident. I see no need to further destroy this family by carting the father/husband off to prison. He didn't intend to hurt his son, he's not a threat to society, and bringing him up on charges just further burdens his family. He's an idiot ... but not all idiotic activity is worth imprisonment. That his son is dead is punishment enough.

>> Also, labeling as an "overreaction" legislation that would save lives is bizarre in the extreme.

Not all legislation purporting to "save lives" is justifiable. Sometimes lives are taken in unusual accidents, and thus legislative action is unnecessary. The number of lives that would be saved by any legislation reacting to this would be miniscule (I cannot recall a single similar incident).

>> Taking a sledgehammer to a car when it breaks down is "overreacting"; taking as many steps necessary to preserve human life is not.

It is an overreaction to outlaw activities that have been safely undertaken hundreds of thousands of times because of a single tragic accident.

kbz

[brentspeak]

107. "The number of lives that would be saved by any legislation reacting to this would be miniscule"

Uh, and that's a problem? :wow:

And by "negligence", I'm referring to the gun club.

[geckosfeet]

117. I am sorry - to try and characterize this as an "accident" is absurd.

It was negligence perpetrated by the boys father and the gun club.

[geckosfeet]

119. Not the father - he was duped by the sponsoring organization. The sponsors were negligent. eom

[JonQ]

110. Public swimming pools usually have life-guards

trained professionals skilled at saving people (supposedly) from drowning.

And yet people still drown in public pools.

Clearly they ought to be banned.


Fun (morbidly so) fact: if you let your kid play at a neighbors house that contains a firearm and a swimming pool your kid is 20x more likely to die in the pool than from a gunshot.

[geckosfeet]

118. Kids play in pools. They don't play with guns.

Nice try.

[JonQ]

120. So because pools

are viewed as harmless toys, and guns are viewed as dangerous and generally not treated as children toys, that makes guns more dangerous to children, despite all evidence to the contrary?

By that logic we should encourage kids to "play" with cars, that ought to cut down on teenage car accidents.

[slackmaster]

66. I learned firearm safety and handling at 10

My brother was six.

Our stepfather was, among other things, a firearms instructor when he was in the Navy.

[gatorboy]

71. Looks like this event could've used your stepfather.

http://www.copfirearms.com/ShootingEventsMainPage.htm

Apparently this event's licensed instructors were too busy doing other things.

[ejbr]

76. Well, it sounds like you know what you are doing

However, I see no reason to chance an "accident" with an 8 year using a gun. Why can't they wait until they are older for this type of instruction? Should 8 years be allowed to drive on the streets with us too?

But it is obviously your call. However, I would not teach my 8 year old about guns, which is mine.

[KneelBeforeZod]

83. Education prevents accidents ...

>> However, I see no reason to chance an "accident" with an 8 year using a gun. Why can't they wait until they are older for this type of instruction?

Because, in a home with firearms, putting it off just extends the mystery and increases the possibility of an accident. I've got a half-dozen handguns, three rifles, and two shotguns at home. I shoot pretty frequently, have a concealed carry license, and have an accessible shotgun for home defense. With dangerous equipment around the house (though safely stored away), it doesn't seem prudent to simply say "don't touch".

I learned to shoot at a very young age, and have thus always had the appropriate amount of respect and knowledge about firearms ... and I will teach my kids the same. Perhaps its regional ... people who grow up in northern and more urban environments are generally taught to fear guns. People in the south, the suburbs, and rural areas see guns as just one of a hundred tools of the trade. I'm from Houston -- and guns have just always been a reality of life.

Generally, I'd start with a BB gun or pellet gun at 6 or 7 years old ... and slowly graduate to a .22 handgun and rifle (probably around 8 or 9), a 30-ought-six, a shotgun, a 9mm semi (10-13), and then the big stuff -- a .44, a pistol-gripped shotgun, and any fully-automatics when they're teenagers. Always supervised ... of course. If you teach gun safety from an early age -- and a child is accustomed to being around, and firing, guns, they're far less likely to do something stupid (and kill themselves or someone else).

>> Should 8 years be allowed to drive on the streets with us too?

No. But, a supervised kid on a firing range is not a public nuisance like a kid that can't see over the wheel of a car.

kbz

[RaleighNCDUer]

97. Aw, c'mon. Start your kid off with an Uzi.

Don't be a wuss.

[slackmaster]

101. I've taught well over 100 people how to handle firearms safely

I always start with a bolt-action .22 rifle.

[RaleighNCDUer]

104. As it should be. nt

[bitchkitty]

81. I assume you keep your guns

in a safe? If I know anything about boys, it's that they brag to their friends. The urge to show off might easily overcome any "training".

[KneelBeforeZod]

84. Most of them ...

I have one or two outside the safe -- the one I carry (which is never home unless I am), and a shotgun for home defense. They're stored unloaded, the ammunition stored separately, and the guns are high enough that the kids can't get to them. Locking a home defense weapon in a safe is impractical ... for obvious reasons.

My kids are currently 3 yrs., and 8 months ... so there's no safety concern right now. They can't reach anything.

kbz

[Night_Nurse]

108. A three year old can get into ANYTHING..

they can and DO climb. And they are curious, and they cannot comprehend the dangers of guns - so you're wrong, you have a HUGE safety concern!

I lost my best girlfriend to a gun when we were 14 years old - her dad kept it in the house for "protection", but one of her friends mistook it for a toy, and all it took was that one shot to snuff out a life. Her father is still haunted, years later, by his bad choice of "home security".

A gun in a home with kids = DISASTER. No matter how many "safeguards" you have in place. Nothing is foolproof, and it's just not worth it.

[bitchkitty]

109. I don't buy that argument -

that locking them in a safe is impractical. It's certainly practical if you have adequate locks and security, to keep the bad guys from gaining access in the first place, or to warn you in plenty of time if they do gain access.

[dhpgetsit]

65. I hope the person who put the gun in his hands is charged with manslaughter.

And convicted. There must be consequences.

[slackmaster]

69. Is not losing one's son enough of a consequence for you?

The man used very poor judgement, but I don't see any indication that he did anything illegal.

:argh:

[ejbr]

80. Not to be a buttinsky,

but any criminal punishment should be used to avoid this type of accident in the future by having people think twice before putting themselves in a position that could end up tragic like this one. If this guy knew he was breaking the law before placing an uzi in his son's hands, he might not have done it and would still have his son.

[KneelBeforeZod]

86. It was an accident ...

>> any criminal punishment should be used to avoid this type of accident in the future by having people think twice before putting themselves in a position that could end up tragic like this one.

You cannot legislatively outlaw accidental death. Accidents happen, and will happen, no matter how many acts of Congress are passed to prevent them.

kbz

[ejbr]

103. But, one can outlaw 8 years old from shooting Uzis...

just like 8 years can't drive, drink or smoke cigarettes.

[yardwork]

88. People get charged for neglect and child endangerment.

I'm not saying that the parent should be charged, just pointing out that when people's children die, they often get charged for neglect.

imo, putting an Uzi in the hands of an eight year old is about as neglectful as leaving one's baby in a locked car - in fact, I have more sympathy for the parent who forgets the baby than I do for the parent who deliberately put this weapon in his child's hands.

[dhpgetsit]

99. There is such a thing as criminal negligence

I feel for him, but I still think a message hase to be sent to gun owners and gun users that they will be held responsible for their actions to the fullest extent of the law.

If I'm not mistaken, manslaughter is when your negligence resulte in another percen's death.

[Divine Discontent]

113. the trained instructor needs tried, not the dad (unless the dad has a gun training degree or whatev)

who lets a little kid shoot an UZI?????????? effin nutjobs - that's who... that poor kid had no idea.

[Xithras]

100. At 9, my son fired my dads fullly automatic Thompson.

The difference between me and this idiot father? I was sitting on a chair, my son was in my lap, and my hand was firmly gripping the stock in front of his. There was no opportunity for the weapon to get away from him, because I always had control of the weapon. Always.

FWIW, the father in this case should not be brought up on charges. He's an idiot for not ensuring that his son could handle the weapon, but the ultimate responsibility here falls on the people who RENTED the firearm to the kid. It is THEIR firearm, and THEIR responsibility to ensure that it is used safely at all times. My dad holds an FFL and had to take several tests to get it. One of the things that was DRILLED into him was that HE IS RESPONSIBLE for the use of his firearms, and that he could only allow them to be used by others if they did so in a safe manner while under his supervision. The people renting these guns failed in their legal responsibilities, will probably have their FFL's pulled for this, and deserve to be prosecuted.

The dad just needs his butt kicked for being an idiot.

[heliarc]

105. Required viewing for this thread.

Kaj Larsen reporting...

http://current.com/items/87302871_machine_gun_shootout

If you guys aren't familiar with Vanguard journalism check them out at http://www.current.com/vanguard

[Doctor_J]

111. what was that line from the American President

"oh, yeah, whether we should have a 3-day waiting period before an 8-year-old can buy an Uzi"

truly remarkable

[fujiyama]

114. Only in America

This kind of thing could only happen in America - or some fucked up war-torn nation that has child soldiers (like Burma or the Congo). But the difference is, in those countries the kids are captured from the parents and trained to shoot these weapons. Here, the parents (!) give the kid the gun!

Sorry, to most of the world giving a kid a gun in the first place is fucked up, but an uzi? Are people fucking brain dead? Do we need to license parents in the first place? It's too bad the kid got shot. If it was the dad, this would have been a Darwin award.

It's too bad an innocent kid is dead because of this gross negligence. People obviously have no common sense anymore. And I can't believe anyone would even debate or argue that it's somehow OK for a kid to be handling an uzi of all guns. I don't think kids under 16 should be handling guns at all. We have age restrictions on driving don't we? And yes, I've been to a shooting range and know the kick handguns can give for God's sake. Even I'd be somewhat weary of handling a semi-automatic or automatic weapon. These aren't toys and shooting these kinds of weapons isn't a game.

The dad should be locked up for life. He shouldn't be raising any kids. That's for damn sure.

[friendly_iconoclast]

121. 16 yrs. for automatic weapons? Maybe

Other guns, no. Children can be taught to safely handle guns (as in single shot .22s to begin with)
at an early age.

[watanabe]

115. umm... ban metal bullets? let them be used by law enforces only? anyone?

why would you need metal bullets in society, if you dont have the intention to kill? rubber bullets are more than enough for self defence.