I am going to do something dangerous, tell the truth...

[Mortos]

This is a verbatim listing of my thoughts during the debate tonight. I have changed nothing. This is an unadulterated review without spin.
DO NOT READ FURTHER IF YOU WANT A SUGARCOATED CRITIQUE

Big Debate Tonight - Edwards Beauty and the Beast Cheney

Alternate titles not selected for this post:

Mr. Potter vs George Bailey

Shrek vs Breck

The Old Bastard vs The Young Turk

I will be posting periodic live updates during the debate.

Good luck and godspeed John Edwards, remember the undead do not like crosses, garlic, or holy water. Smack that scowl off of his face.

*******8:36 pm
John Edwards is holding his own against the old bastard. Cheney threw the first low blow on Edwards "missing" a Senate vote. Cheney is coming across as grouchy and gruff, Edwards is being more polite and statesman-like. I think Edwards needs to get a little more aggressive or Cheney will be perceived as stronger.

*******8:43
Edwards bites back. Halliburton-Under investigation for over charging the American people, did business with sworn enemies under Cheney's watch, under investigation for bribing foreign officials. Cheney "I will need more than 30 seconds Gwen." "That's all you've got." Pow!

*******9:06
Domestic policy. This should be Edwards strong suit. I think Cheney will be given the edge in the previous portion of the debate. He is just meaner.

*******9:50
Well, I am going to do something here my conservative counterparts never would...I am going to tell the truth. Looking at the debate from a purely critical standpoint, Cheney won. He was unflappable (as a souless succubus always is). He got in the better zingers. He seemed more confident and sure of himself. Edwards came off as trying to hard. He went back to his talking points after the topic had changed or before the question had come up. Here are the superficial points conservative talk show hosts and their petty audiences will bring up; Edwards drank too much water, licked his lips, scribbled loudly, tore out pages, made pouty faces and squinched his eyes and he said John Kerry when he wasn't supposed to. Oh Yeah, he probably smoked a doobie backstage because he looked like he had cotton mouth. Get ready for freeze frames of his tongue half way out of his mouth.

I think the substance of the arguments Edwards made were cutting and damaging but his style was off putting compared to Cheney's "father knows best" style. Cheney, believe it or not, had more style (even if it was the style of your cranky boss who never makes mistakes) than the smooth southern trial lawyer.

Even though Edwards was outperformed by Cheney it is important to note (and I want to make it abundantly clear) he was by far superior to George Bush. John Edwards seemed smart and knowledgeable in this debate whereas Bush seemed confused and disoriented in his.

The Vice Presidential debate goes down in the win column for the Bush campaign. Unfortunately Cheney will not be able to pinch hit for Bush in the next two debates (like he did with the 9/11 commission). I don't think the American public chooses their President based on who is running for Vice President which is good.

The debate tonight shows that John Kerry was the right man to head the Democratic ticket. Kerry is, by far, the superior candidate. He is better than Edwards, he is better than Cheney and he is better than Bush in every conceivable way.

It is disconcerting to me that the current Vice President outpaces his boss in every way, shape and form and that the George W. Bush is inferior to his subordinate, far inferior. Cheney made Bush look like more of an idiot with his performance tonight and, if spun properly, will hurt Bush in the long run.

The main thing this debate showed tonight is that, with Kerry as President, he will be in charge. He will be running the country and he will be subordinate to no one.

The events of tonight make me believe more in a current little conspiracy theory that is floating around. Bush will not show up for the third debate. Check it out at www.debatedodger.blogspot.com.

*******Please don't do me the disservice of accusing me of anything nefarious or being an undercover saboteur. Check out my credentials on my website or the top story on the front page of DU.

[PSU84]

1. Yawn.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz.

People don't like Dick Cheney. Period.

[Don Claybrook]

6. yawn if you must

Of course people don't like Dick Cheney. That's not the question put before us, however. I think that the de facto, unspoken question is, how did Cheney and Edwards do with undecided voters. Now, the hypothetical undecided voters, I have to admit, freaking elude me with their indecisiveness. But I have to believe that they exist. Therefore, it's important to be honest with ourselves, not with matters of fact vs. lie; clearly Edwards wins on these points. But Edwards did make some sophomoric mistakes and Cheney did bulldoze him with denials over and over. I think Edwards did a pretty good job of holding his own. I don't think the Kerry camp will lose any votes over this debate. But the Bush camp may have staunched the flow of departing votes, at least until Friday night. I, for one, am not going to fall into the group-think camp. The idiots from Fresno do that enough without our help.

I think Edwards made a good showing, I'm glad to hear that early polling is in his favor, but for the truly undecided and lost souls out there, I think Cheney may have won points on style, if nothing else. I bear no ill will toward John Edwards--he was up against a pro... no, he was up against the acting president of the United States. But he wasn't perfect, and it doesn't so much matter that most people don't like Cheney. This debate wasn't for the benefit of "most people", who have already decided on their vote.

[PSU84]

12. Look at the online polls.

MSNBC, CBS, ABC. Cheney makes people cringe. Edwards won. End. of. story.

[Mortos]

15. The polls are going crazy for Edwards

Is it because we are so well organized and motivated or because the cons didn't take this seriously? Interesting.

[Don Claybrook]

20. Once again

I'm glad to see Edwards ahead in online polling (and presumably in subsequent offline polling). I already mentioned this. But as I said, I'm trying mightily to see this from the vantage point of the mythical undecided voter.

I don't need cheerleading. I like Edwards, and I hate Cheney's lying fucking guts. You're talking from both a rational and an emotional point of view. I'm talking from what is an admittedly hypothetical point of view--that of the undecided voter. That's what this debate was about.

Something I didn't mention before: if all of the polling is going for Edwards (and it sounds like this is the case), then the undecided voters may be as much or more swayed by this than by "efficacy" in the debate. After all, they're undecided voters, and I'd be less than honest if I said I had much patience with them.

At the same time, it's important to me that I not involve myself in an echo chamber of group-think. The people on the other side do way too much of that, and I'm just not interested. So if my guy isn't as effective as I thought he should've been, I feel it's important to be honest with myself about that. Hope you see and respect where I'm coming from.

[Mortos]

25. I do

[sr_pacifica]

35. The mythical undecided voter couldn't even hear Cheney's answers

he mumbled, spoke too quickly. I think you are missing the mark on who the mythical undecided voter is. This person prefers smiles to scowls and an energetic personality to a grumpy, boring unpleasant man.

[NMDemDist2]

2. i thought cheney did too well if you didn't know he was LYING!!!

I agree, the guy was unflappable and just kept lying and lying ARGH

Edwards was not as strong as i hoped he'd be

what's sad about that is that's exactly what our resident astrologer said would happen. Cheney would have a good night and look like a nice guy

sigh

oh well let's hope nobody watched but us wonks

[Don Claybrook]

9. Well, Cheney didn't look like a nice guy

As many points as I grudgingly gave Cheney above, nice guy points were not included in that tally.

[olddem43]

3. Daniel Webster vs. The Devil.

[indie_voter]

4. I disagree

What were you expecting? You said it your self Cheney has the "father knows best" persona.

However did you notice how he slouches, mumbles and growls?

Father is not always right (though mother is. ;) )

Father is the one who (in the old days) you feared (just wait until your father comes home).

Edwards was the face of optimism and hope, Cheney the face of gloom and doom.

Edwards didn't win, I didn't expect him too. However he did better than a draw.

[Mortos]

5. I don't like our leaders as stern father figures

any more than you do (give me a matriarch anytime:) ) but, unfortunately most scared sheep in this country do. I think the percieved performance by Cheney tonight will make Bush's next one look like 10 pounds of hammered shit in comparison. Good for us. Bad for them. Ultimately we win.

[fsbooks]

7. honest

You saw the same debate I saw.

It is unfortunate that facts matter so little...because they eat Cheney alive.

[marlakay]

So far all the polls show Edwards ahead

I kind of think it was a draw but I think by Edwards leading the polls that tells me that people like him more than Cheney thank God!

[spooky3]

8. please bear in mind that for everyone who feels as you do, there is a

person who can't stand to listen to John Kerry but find Edwards' comments interesting and cogent; Kerry had to be coached to speak more effectively and to his great credit he has improved. Kerry obviously has many other huge strengths and I have contributed to his campaign, but you claim to be interested in truth, and the truth is that many people do not see it as you do. The primary reason he is heading the ticket is that he spent more years in the Senate and in the military than did Edwards, and most Dem. voters felt that these were critical qualifications this year. This is not my opinion; this is documented in exit poll after exit poll during the primaries. Let's not tear down one candidate in order to build up the other.

[Mortos]

10. I am not tearing down Edwards

I am building up Kerry or more correctly recognizing the strengths that Kerry has had all along. There is a reason he is heading this ticket.

[pllib]

11. Maybe a draw, but still hurts Bush

Close to a draw - I think Edwards could have done better, but he did well. He certainly held his own, and exhibited a grasp of the issues. A little bothersome that he kept coming back to the talking points, and I wish he would have more directly addressed the inconsitency charge on Iraq. However, he brought out the issue on Cheney and Halliburton, pounded Cheney on the issue of their poor judgement in managing the war on terror, and closed the last answer with a very good riposte - they chose the insurance companies, they chose the drug companies - we will always choose the American people.

Cheney knew what he was talking about, and he is a skillful liar. He is much tougher, and much more well informed than the President. He made the President look like a weak and uninformed man in comparison (which he is). No wonder that Dick appointed himself the VP candidate - he knew he would get to run the country, a chance he would never have, because he knows his radicalism and his personality would make him unelectable in the top spot.

Edwards did what he had to do - not lose, and land some good ones in the process. A draw all around, but a net negative for Bush.

[scarletwoman]

13. A worthy critique, thank you.

I found myself reluctantly appreciating Cheney's largely smooth performance -- evil lying bastard that he is, he's damn good at it. I also wished for more from Edwards, and it was hard at times watching his seeming nervousness. Cheney seemed more relaxed overall, which isn't all that surprising, cold-blooded snake that he is.

I don't think tonight's debate particularily hurt us, it just didn't help as much as one might have hoped.

sw

[no name no slogan]

17. I have to agree-- a draw

Hi sw! :hi:

I watched most of the debate, and I was disappointed at a couple of HUGE gaping holes in Cheney's arguments that Edwards could have nailed. Overall, I think Edwards did alright, but his inexperience definately came through.

Cheney may be a surly old bastard, but he is an effective communicator, and didn't seem afraid to answer the questions asked (even if he lied his way through the answers).

I wouldn't put too much credence in "instant" online polls-- most of them are Freeped/DUed beyond belief by partisans, and don't mean jack.
I'd be more interested in the Nielsen ratings for this debate, to see if anybody besides the hardcore political junkies is even paying attention.

This thing was a draw, IMHO-- however, one draw and one victory means we're STILL ahead of the Repubs in the debate department. I'd like to see how Shrub's gonna pull off a win on Friday.

[scarletwoman]

28. Hi, nnns!

:hi:

A draw is fine. Wished it could have been a major wipeout (with Cheney being the wipee), but that was against the odds in any case.

sw

[calimary]

39. That was my gut reation - advantage cheney, more or less. But not by

much. I thought Edwards missed more than a few opportunities to drive a battering ram through some of cheney's statements. First off, at least two of them aren't true - about never seeing Edwards in the Senate until tonight, and about how it's not true that 90 percent coalition casualties in Iraq are American (wrong - even Bill Schneider of CNN debunked that one - Edwards is correct). Edwards had a few good points that he used almost as throw-away lines - about allowing drug purchases from Canada and a three-strikes limit to trial lawyers to keep frivolous lawsuits out of the courts. He DID bring up Halliburton, but didn't smack it home hard enough when cheney dismissed it as a political tactic. I would have LOVED to see Edwards be the trial lawyer we've heard about. I did NOT see it.

Hate to say this but I was underwhelmed by his acceptance speech at the convention, too. Dammit. We could have just about put this thing TO BED tonight, and we didn't.

But, hey, the online polls so far, every one that I've seen, have given it to Edwards overwhelmingly, so hey, I am MORE THAN okay with that.

It'll be interesting to see how this shakes down. If they pull more oopsies out of the hat as Aaron Brown apparently did with the cheney "I never saw you before tonight" remark, then it may not matter how "well" cheney may have done. It'll just be - he LIED.

Then again, the water cooler talk tomorrow may wind up being about Rodney Dangerfield...

[Doohickie]

14. I agree with just about everything you said.

I had just voted "slight Cheney" on the poll here at DU. I think he won it, fair and square. But I also agree with your analysis that by looking so smart he will make * look worse by comparison. Ultimately, Edwards had to hold is own. He did that. He even scored points in my book when he drew the humanity out of Cheney with his gracious remarks about Cheney's daughter. But on issues, Cheney just hammered away, and I felt Edwards missed many opportunities.

I will put one example out there and that will be plenty. When the question was posed about flip-flopping, Edwards should have rose above the urge to sling mud at the administration. He had already done so in several areas. Instead, I felt the best thing to do would have been to start off by clarifying Kerry's most famous "flip-flop" regarding paying for the war. One vote was funded by tax cut rollbacks on the rich, the other was not funded at all and was irresponsible. From there he should have explained that the whole flip-flopping issue is a red herring in that there are usually circumstances that vary from one vote to the next (such as where the money for the war would come from) and to quibble about such issues when there is only time for a 30-second sound bite (or two-minute debate response) is really pretty petty. That could have put the flip-flop issue to bed for good. Instead, he escalated the flip-flop wars by pointing out the administration's inconsistencies.

[Mortos]

16. I agree

It wouldn't have put it to rest completely but it would have taken the wind out of the sails.

As long as Bush ultimately looks bad and loses, I am happy.

[Carolinian]

18. It's clear who's running this country and it ain't Bush. JE was GREAT!

[crispini]

26. Now that I would agree with...

It is indeed clear who's running this country, and it ain't Shrub.

[dweller]

19. well, you lost me Mortos, in your first line "view without spin"

let me introduce you to that little sleepy guy on my post.
You must have been smoking that 'doobie' you claim was smoked backstage. Nice try.

buh buy.
dp

[Mortos]

27. I guess you can't read

I didn't accuse him of smoking a doobie, I said this is what the rightwingers will be saying tomorrow. The superficial spin of the debate. I don't think I will mind you ignoring me if it means I don't have to read what you write anymore. Sleep well.

[dweller]

36. then i'll guess you can't reason, nor listen

I could care less what the 'right wingers' or their frontmen have to spout. You like superficiality?
I try not to give credence to it. Occasionally i will drop into a thread that's spouting their points of view.

Lies travel halfway around the world, while
truth is just putting on its shoes.

your shoe's untied!
dp

[sandnsea]

21. If you like a lying father figure

No thank you. I'm all grown up and like respect, equality and truth.

[agincourt]

22. The Cheney beast,

is hard to debate because he is vindictive and his brain still functions. I heard the debate on the radio when I was driving and I thought Edwards held up pretty good. Cheney beast is not GW Bushytail, if Edwards makes it a tie I figured he'd done pretty good, which I think thats about what it was, a tie.

[GeorgeBushytail]

23. Cheneybeast and Bushytail

Hey, I like those names! :^}

[medeak]

24. republican just called me...

says Edwards gave her hope for the future. I can't figure it out as she thought Bush beat Kerry.

[progressivebydesign]

29. Edwards "smoked a doobie backstage"??

Yeah.. that's real political discourse. God save us from wannabe wonks.

[Mortos]

33. This is the second time this has come up

READ what I wrote. I said these are the superficial comments that right wingers will be making up tomorrow.

[dweller]

34. "...I am going to tell the truth."

"Looking at the debate from a purely critical
standpoint, Cheney won. He was unflappable (as a souless succubus always is). He got in the better zingers. He seemed more confident and sure of himself. Edwards
came off as trying to (sic) hard. He went back to his talking points after the topic had changed or before the question had come up. Here are the superficial points
conservative talk show hosts and their petty audiences will bring up; Edwards drank too much water, licked his lips, scribbled loudly, tore out pages, made pouty
faces and squinched his eyes and he said John Kerry when he wasn't supposed to. Oh Yeah, he probably smoked a doobie backstage because he looked like he had
cotton mouth. Get ready for freeze frames of his tongue half way out of his mouth."


seems you have a one way line into the right wing mindset, how are we to distinguish yours from theirs? As long as you waste your time venturing there, how are you of help here?

dp

[Mortos]

41. I thought you were ignoring me

Yes I do have a line into the right wing mindset. I study them and listen to them (I don't have much choice living in Oklahoma) and I fight them every day. Read my posts. I have the top story on the front page right now as I have every Tuesday for the last 4 weeks. Go to my site. Read my writings.

I knew this would happen but I gave my perceptions anyway. I am not afraid of the truth or challenging the status quo.

Don't waste my time or yours implying that I am a freeper. Give me a break.

[dweller]

42. Give yourself a break

and the rest of us too.

speak the Truth. I can get the RW talking points from the Librul media. I know how to shut it out, it's just a waste of bandwidth.

I don't have you on ignore. I'm a Democrat. I have an open mind. I sweep out the dust daily.

it allows the fresh air to circulate.
dp

[Mortos]

43. So you are a liar

From you:

let me introduce you to that little sleepy guy on my post.
You must have been smoking that 'doobie' you claim was smoked backstage. Nice try.

buh buy.

Or more likely, a blowhard.

[dweller]

47. that was an introduction

and perhaps you should have used it.
Otherwise you would not be here accusing me of your projection. I'm a liar?

from you:
" I fell for lies told with a straight face. I have seen several of his "zingers" exposed already. This is a debate which will change as more truth comes out. Even better."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x980744#983425

blowhard little wind.
dp

[kwolf68]

30. Likeability

Both Bush and Edwards are VERY likeable. Kerry and Cheney are not.

However, Bush is an incompetent ofus. Edwards is not.

And compared to Cheney, Kerry seems like Ghandi.

[unfrigginreal]

31. Keep your day job

[w4rma]

32. Edwards laid the smackdown on Cheney. The polls say he did also.

You are wrong. And you're out of touch if you *really* think Cheney won.

[Uzybone]

37. I almost agreed with your analysis

Until I saw the legion of lies and unrefuted Edwards attacks in the transcripts. I thought the debate was close, but actually Cheney totally cheneyed himself with some of his so called zingers.

[Mortos]

38. I agree

I fell for lies told with a straight face. I have seen several of his "zingers" exposed already. This is a debate which will change as more truth comes out. Even better.

[Tangledog]

44. Cheney's the best at...

(a) Avoiding questions in a way that makes the semi-informed listener think he answered them.

(b) Lying without any discernible giveaways.

It's a good thing he went into politics, because he'd be a great criminal mastermind. Oh, wait.... :)

Seriously, people who aren't political junkies might have a hard time cutting through Cheney's truly weird mixture of falsehood, avoidance, pettiness, stoicism, technocracy, and authoritativeness. I'm not sure I've seen anybody with his mixture of traits.

The point is, he can get over because he can't easily be identified through his personal presentation. Successful liars usually have a nervous tic or an ingratiating or charismatic personality, or they try to bowl you over with insistent energy, or something.

[Swamp Rat]

40. John Edwards won the debate.

Cheney was only successful at keeping his human form in check for the duration of the debate.

[Protagoras]

45. Good analysis. Shows some of the more valid ways we win

without resorting to sheer partisan spin. One thing that I really liked was that everyone..>EVERYONE looks inferior to Kerry.

The fact that neither VP looked better than KERRY just emphasized KERRY's competence.

Tonight helped our cause. It could have, perhaps helped more...but it did what it needed to do and the polls will swing even further in our favor in the next few days.

Can't wait for friday.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

46. I don't think your points are invalid and until Cheney was caught in

the I NEVER MET YOU lie, I was in some ways in agreement with you.

Cheney came off as paternal..Edwards was champing at the bit and looked a bit petulant at times...but then I thought a little harder ...

Edwards hammered on Cheney's credibility just enough to make him visibly annoyed and angry..then backed off...nobody wants to see a hardbody beat up an old man.

[Bucky]

48. Ferget the debate. Edwards will win the AFTER-debate debate.

Cheney told two big fibs in the match up. They'll both be headline news tomorrow morning, therefor eclipsing anything of substance to be covered in the real deapte..