Liberals: Prepare for Defcon: Level Batshit Crazy

[grantcart]

A liberal civil rights leader told me almost 40 years ago that the liberals on the committee were going to lose.

In the end we would be out manouvered and he was right.

The setting was the city's largest liberal mainline church. Booming when other churches shrank it had money and power. It stood up against the war, hunger and civil rights.


The senior pastor was leaving and the wise old attorney asked me if the other 5 liberals on the pastor seeking committee were all reasonable people. "Yes they are all reasonable".



"Well that was the problem with liberals - they are reasonable."


"Rather than losing a good thing we give a little, give a little more. All the other side has to do is to wear you down with unreasonableness.

They don't care if a good thing is lost - they are habitually unreasonable.

For Liberals to win you have to be prepared to go to Defcon: Batshit Crazy.

That's how we broke them in Selma. Wouldn't ride a bus for a year.

That's how we stopped the war, we went batshit in the street until it hurt their business. Unless you are ready to go batshit - liberals will lose in negotiations everytime."


He was right. After a year of watching them find some superficial reason to reject every progressive candidate we eventually settled on trying to find an intellectually honest conservative. After that pastor left they found somebody that was more conservative and intellectually dishonest. Then they found somebody who Billy Graham would consider too far right.


The Public Option is our compromise position.


If you have lived overseas or have talked with people who have experienced it, its hard to express how retrograde our health system is and how reasonable single payer is.

Single Payer is not a particularly liberal position.

The Conservative Parties of England, Canada and Australia all love single payer.

The Democratic Party, Single Payer and the Public Option are not wild eyed radicals and policies, they are in the middle of the developed world. This country has moved so far to the right that middle of the road seems radical.


So we have to be prepared to go all out - committ to complete batshit crazy - on the Public Option compromise.


NO PUBLIC OPTION THEN NO HEALTH BILL.


And if that puts on the other side of the Whitehouse on this one (and I don't think it will) then we still go batshit and those of us who love the man can still love him, its business its not personal.


Going batshit now is essential if we are going to have any power in the next 7 years. If the moderates and the conservative Democrats think that we are always going to be there then they are going to take us for granted on all of the other issues that we want to advance in the future - size of the military budget - for example. Instead of trying to negotiate with us they will only be interested in negotitating with Republicans.

So even if Health Care doesn't get passed now it will be better for us in the long run.


Every once in a while liberals have to stop being reasonable and just be batshit crazy. The Public Option is one of those times.

[villager]

1. yes!

:thumbsup:

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Alert! Going Guano!

[grantcart]

5. Interestingly guano is an excellent source of gunpowder

Guano (from the Quechua 'wanu', via Spanish) is the excrement (feces and urine) of seabirds, bats, and seals.<1> Guano manure is an effective fertilizer and gunpowder

[Canuckistanian]

10. And a floor wax. And a dessert topping.

Cleans those stubborn stains in your driveway.

Add it to your fuel tank and get 23.8% more mileage!

Ask for it by name!

[FredStembottom]

49. Best laff this week!

And, boy, do I need those!:spray:

[kenfrequed]

73. Holy crapola!

You mean Guano is the secret non-yellowing ingredient in Shimmer?

[RufusTFirefly]

116. It turns a sandwich into a banquet

That's right, it filets, it chops
It dices, slices, never stops
Lasts a lifetime, mows your lawn
And it mows your lawn
And it picks up the kids from school
It gets rid of unwanted facial hair
It gets rid of embarrassing age spots
It delivers a pizza
And it lengthens, and it strengthens
And it finds that slipper that's been at large
Under the chaise longue for several weeks
And it plays a mean Rhythm Master
It makes excuses for unwanted lipstick on your collar
And it's only a dollar, step right up
It's only a dollar, step right up

-- Tom Waits, "Step Right Up"

[nemo137]

28. a little of that and a pinch of sulfur, and you've got a fireball.

that's what, 1d6 damage per level?

[TK421]

111. 1d6 plus fire damage against anything weak against fire....

and that's if you manage to hit it! Have I come across a fellow D&D nerd here? :toast: If not, apologies in advance

[Grinchie]

94. Unfortunately, so is Monsanto, DOW Chemicals and Bayer.

The days of mining Guano are long gone, now that we have massive industrial processes to to it en masse, but it's nice of you to present a bit of history for us.

[cognoscere]

108. I think you're referring to nitroguanidine.

It's made by separating guanine from seagull or bat shit; oxidizing it into guanidine; nitrating that and then treating the guanidine nitrate with sulfuric acid. However, you could be on to something if we can convince terrorists to load up a truck with bat crap and try to blow up buildings with it.

[donquijoterocket]

127. with froot loops

Tom Robbins in his novel Still Life With Woodpecker includes a recipe for constructing an explosive device using bat guano and Froot Loops.Just one more reason I've always kind of considered Robbin's novels to be excellent survival guides.

[krkaufman]

154. Guano Loco? n/t

[cliffordu]

3. WE NEED FIVE HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE ON THE MALL.

I don't know how to organize it, or I would.

[cliffordu]

27. fucking crickets

[Wednesdays]

163. Fucking crickets.

Not to belittle your call or your frustration, I just thought we could use a bit of a laugh tonight.

[Voltaire]

32. I will go

we need to go and shut DC down if we have to. I will go.

[bc3000]

98. I would go too...

But I know I probably won't hear about it until 2 days before it happens and it will be too late.

[demwing]

35. I don't know how to organize it, but I know who does

Dr Howard Dean does.

Who here has this man's ear?

[cliffordu]

58. I WILL BE THERE if we can get SOMETHING started.

[Demeter]

72. We Need a General Strike

You can do it without travelling, in the privacy of your home, and if everybody does it, they can't jail, fire or prosecute 300 Million Americans, or even 30 Million and their dependents.

[cliffordu]

80. NOW YOU'RE TALKING!!!!

STRIKE!!!!!!

[pundaint]

84. YESSSS Strike

Perhaps we could withhold all spending from 6 AM to 12 Noon on the last Sunday of September. Just a shot across the bow as a start?

[Grinchie]

96. I'm with you Demeter, but I've been on strike since 2003

They don't even know I exist.

The key is to have everyone do it, regardless of their fear of lost wages or jobs. It has to shut down everything. Mass Transit, Mail Service, Supply and Distribution. Government Administration, etc.

Just like Gandhi was able to do in India.

It would be interesting to see the response of the U.S. Government. Would the start cracking heads like the British did in India, till the pile of unconscious, injured victims became too much to handle caused them to rethink the Head Cracking and brute force method?

Personally, I think Americans are to entrenched in the EGO of maintaining the Rat Race, and the system they feed on a daily basis fo the Symbolic opium of Money. If they knew the real secret of the U.S. Dollar, which is that it is backed by nothing but their own promise to pay, then their would be a mass strike of amazing dimensions.

It's kind of funny, but I haven't worked for anyone other than myself for the past 6 years. I don't have a small business, other than making the kingdom of Grinchie more comfortable and enjoyable. I work my own hours, and can work like a dog and enjoy it. I make no wages, but my work is totally satisfying, and creates tangible assets for me and my family. If I work too hard, or strain my back, I have the ability to take the time necessary to heal, without worry of paying any bills whatsoever.

I have never had a better job in my life! Joy of Work, the time and freedom to educate ones self regarding Business practices, instead of being a drone in some cubicle somewhere is amazingly refreshing, and it is reflected in perpetual health, a happy disposition, and a neverending pursuit of knowledge.

It's out there, but I fear that for many living in the City don't have a clue how simple life can be, because all they know is the Social System built fto keep them in control and dependant on resources shipped in from foreign lands.

[Left Coast2020]

117. AB-SO-FREAKIN-LOUTELY!!!

But we should have done this a long time ago. They do it in France and the government reacts, but people here (at least some) are not proactive enough to accomplish anything. You have my support hands down!!!! I agree. Shut down Washington!! And get truckers to close the streets down.

I also want to point out that, according to what Lawarence O'Donnell stated on Countdown, Public Option will pass the House first time, then after it comes back for another vote after Conference Commttee, it will bomb. I don't understand why it has to go back to House of Rep's for second vote? I'm not liking the way this could turn out. So perhaps it would be in our best interest if this H-C reform goes into the toilet, we march--massively. Its the only way IMO.

[druidity33]

118. that's why

they've been decimating and fractioning the Unions for decades. Without a strong Union workforce, a strike won't happen. Who else specifically saves for a Strike Fund?

:shrug:

[jberryhill]

119. I'm self-employed, how do I do that? /nt

[Demeter]

137. Take a Day Off, and Tell Your Customers Why

That's what I would be doing, too. Also self-employed.

[Sebastian Doyle]

4. It's time to remind these useless Repukes in Democratic clothing who elected a goddamn majority.

And it wasn't a bunch of fucking middle of the road, wishy washy "moderate centrists".

[Robber M]

26. Funny!

The name Baucus come rather forcefully to mind!

[lyonn]

79. Oooo I like when you talk dirty - exactly - nt

[fadedrose]

6. All true, all good, but who will lead? nt

[demwing]

36. Someone get Dr Dean on the phone

Its time the doctor got drafted

[fadedrose]

106. The Clinton gang is still in power from what I gather..

and they don't care for Gov. Dean... I think he's too democratic. A lot of obstacles to overcome.

[Arugula Latte]

7. Agree. I'm done with Clintonian triangulation. We need robust, proud liberalism.

And we need it NOW.

[lark]

139. Are you getting tired of Obamas surge to the right?

I sure am

[rucky]

8. Damn wise words.

I'm putting my bat-suit on.

[MrModerate]

9. It's not even reasonableness. It's a matter of counting noses.

Even with defections in the House, public option could pass. Hell, single payer could probably pass.

In the Senate, 51 votes are required. Fuck the filibuster rules. Let the 'Licans filibuster for real -- I mean standing up and talking for weeks -- and shut government down again. That worked real well in 1995. If we don't have 51 votes, well, 1) shame on us and 2) let's do some arm-twisting to get 51.

Bipartisanship is not possible when the other side simply refuses to fulfill their oaths of office, and that's what we have today.

[rhett o rick]

11. I say that if the other side doesnt want to compromise for PO then we go for single payer

all the way.

[grantcart]

12. I agree - taking single payer off the table to early moved the central

negotiating position far to the right.

[rhett o rick]

13. Agree. nt

[yodermon]

57. how about a medicare buy-in?

it's technically a "public option" but it sounds different enough for the chattering heads.

[SergeStorms]

69. Close to 60% of the people in this country........

don't know that Medicare is a government run program. No shit. That's the kind of stupidity we're up against here. :banghead:

If they ever found out that Medicare was a government run program their heads would probably explode.

[dotymed]

85. I TOTALLY AGREE

I do not think that a PO will do anything but hurt us. It is a
terrible "compromise" plan that will cause a huge
budget deficit. SINGLE PAYER UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE will pay
for itself and actually save us money. Congress was supposed
to let the CBO present the figures to them. Then they
"took it off the table completely" to appease the
wealthy Insurance Lobby. Screw PO, that will just be used
against us to "prove" that Universal Health Care is
a money pit. President Obama KNOWS this and yet he is not
presenting anything to congress. The SINGLE PARTY SYSTEM
strikes again, for the wealthy...

[inna]

14. +28

:kick:

[ccharles000]

15. k/r

[ruggerson]

16. So I take it you're in favor of the President

vetoing a bill that lands on his desk without a strong public option component.

[grantcart]

23. It would make my day

[ruggerson]

24. I think I agree with you

largely because without the option, it just drives more customers to the private insurers.

[FredStembottom]

50. At this point, I am.

...and that would cost my family directly.

It's the policies, now. I don't care who is behind what anymore.

We need HELP out here!

Only HELP will help!

[NYC_SKP]

17. Oh, I'm ready for that Defcon Level..

I'm ninety percent Batshit Crazy 100 percent of the time.

I can bump it, say the word.


;p

[Marsala]

18. Yes, by all means let's kill health care reform now so that we can maybe get something better

...in 10 or 20 more years. Nothing can possibly go wrong with that strategy.

[cliffordu]

20. Or we could just settle for what they hand us and be grateful they let us play at all...

[ChiciB1]

92. THAT Is What THEY Are Counting On!! THEY Want Us To Sit Back

and TAKE IT, SHUT UP & SIT DOWN... we gave you "something" now just QUIT WHINING!!

I'm for BAT-SHIT REVOLT!! I'm SICK of sitting in front of my PC, reading and writing ABOUT this stuff and in the end having to "settle" for mere CRUMBS!!

Back to the drawing board or REVOLT! I'll take the latter because it will at least send "some" kind of message that we ARE NOT going to take it anymore!!

I don't know how to organize it either, but I've been calling for this type of thing for way too long!! Other countries at least can mount a REVOLT against their leaders, and many ARE NOT even a Democracy!!

We have prided ourselves as being a Democratic Republic, but "Democracy" here seems to be DEAD or at the very least dying a slow death!!

[grantcart]

22. If it doesn't have a Public Option it is not reform

It will not give us a structural change or a path to single payer.


It will however mandate by law that you purchase private insurance. It will give Health Care Insurers, who are currently mounting what in effect is a criminal enterprise (entering into contracts with the intend to defraud by disallowing payment to people with large claims on trivial grounds).

So no we are not going to sit by and let them steal health care reform. If they won't give us Public Option then we come back in the next election and inform and win at the ballot box.

[demwing]

37. Your right. something might go wrong

but something will go wrong if a bill is put up without a solid public option. In fact, if that happens, you could say something already HAS gone wrong, and now we need to decide what to do about it.

However, until today's speech is heard, we should all take a deep breath...

[Grinchie]

99. I'm finished listening to speeches from Obama.

Just look at all the God Damned hype being foisted upon us, while the message from Baucus is muddier and muddier as we head towards winter.

I can just see it now. Obama says:

"Times are Tough"
"We can't afford it"
"The health care industry supports thousands of Jobs"
"My DLC Handlers made a deal with the Health Care Insurers"
"We are waging two wars, and money is in short supply"
"My investors have already bought stock in the Health Care sector because the Public Option is dead"
"We haven't raised the debt ceiling to 14 Trillion dollars yet"
"We need a uniquely American Solution"
"Reach across the Aisle"
"Look ahead, not backward"
"A little girl asked me the other day..."
"My organic Garden is contaminated with lead from Sewage Sludge they used in the 80's to prove it was safe"
"Rahm say you should shut up and toe the line like the Republicans do!"

"Blahh Blah Blah"

I'm through taking a deep breath of polluted air. Obama and the DLC went out of their way to throw the left under the bus early on. Now I don't expect him to be enything more than another Corporate Toadlicker with a fantastic PR machine. Unfortunately, the PR they are using is outdated and Compromised due to the Internet, the last 8 years of similar exploitation, and people who are sick and tired of the same old shit repackaged over and over again.

[Chan790]

59. It won't be 10 or 20 years this time...

because if it doesn't pass this time, its going anywhere as an issue. It'll be the issue tomorrow, in two years, in four years, in eight years. It will be a lead albatross for moderate dems and everybody to the right of them until it passes. Every step of the way it'll hamstring Republicans and cut the legs out off the careers of blue dogs. Americans want real healthcare change, anybody who stands in the way of that will get run over by it.

This is the issue of no compromise...sometimes situations require that you not be even remotely reasonable or flexible to another position because the moderate position represents no improvement or change. This is why the nation keeps drifting to the right, because of quisling dems like you who have no guts and think we should never take a stand.

So...yes.

Yes to all of it.

[PVnRT]

61. No, let's whittle it down to the point where still, the GOP won't support it

but will use the "reform bill" as an excuse to ignore the issue for 10 to 20 years. Nothing could go wrong with that strategy.

[lyonn]

90. Without the PO the insurance companies win big

It is very likely that everyone must have health insurance with a bill the repubs like and the corps get filthy rich, even richer than they are. We will all be forced into buying health insurance instead of finding other means to pay for health care. For instance, invest in something(s) like property, etc. I'm on medicare but, prior to that we spent $$ on investing. Now the cost is so outrageous that we would have to sell nearly everything we worked for if we got a bill for hundreds of thousands, like some do? That is ridiculous. Hell, I would be totally pissed if my family spent that kinds of money to keep this 71 yr. old granny that has smoked all my life alive for a few more months or years!! Come to think of it, they better not let that happen if I am incapacitated, price be damned. I watched a Dear Friend die after more than 2 months in the hospital, in and out of intensive care, barely able to communicate. It was almost impossible for me to see her in that condition. The family had lots of insurance. I have a feeling once you run out of money they quit keeping the near death alive. At one point she apparently was so infected (?) that I had to put full protection gear on to go in her room. I thought it was for her benefit but no, it was for the visitors, we had to use disinfectant after leaving her room.

[quakerboy]

152. Or we can take a compromise now

that will not be reform, not get me insured, fine me, and lose a generation of voters by enforcing apathy. And thus not get reform for another 50-60 years, if then.

Up to you, I suppose, but I prefer the first option.

[cliffordu]

19. I gave you a K&R, whiner.

[janx]

21. Aye aye, sir!

:patriot:

I'm on alert and am prepared to go to Defcon Level Batshit should the need arise. And you are absolutely right: the public option IS a compromise. (And I consider myself a moderate.)

[struggle4progress]

25. There's no need to be unreasonable: but there's no reason to "compromise" with wackos, either

Decide to win and organize to do just that. Get used to the fact that some people will scream no matter what. If our opponents can't converse like rational adults, we may need to take that into account -- but it doesn't mean we should let them bully us

[BzaDem]

29. If liberals do this, they will be taken even LESS seriously in the future.

A bunch of liberals did this in 2000. To them, Gore was another "corporatist," and there was little difference between Gore and Bush. They went "batshit crazy" and voted for Nader. In addition to Bush winning, Nader's support was CUT IN 10 in 2004. So not only did the "batshit crazy liberals" get Bush elected (which they intended), but they lost 90% of their caucus (which they did not intend). They did not move the Democratic party further to the left at all. They simply made irrelevant the only competing party to the left of the Democrats as anything other than a laughing stock.

The exact same thing would happen if liberals kill healthcare reform. Those that did would begin to develop the same reputation as the Naderites. Once Republicans take control of Congress, people will be saying the Democratic party's biggest mistake was to reject the compromise that could have been built upon later. People will lose faith in the Democratic party's ability to govern for at least a decade, and those that caused it will become pariahs within their own party.

In this scenario, people will look back on that moment as a lesson that progressives need to compromise when necessary. And in particular, people would realise that those that don't see this lesson need to be forced out of ALL positions of power. They won't be given committee chairmanships, and eventually they won't be given support for re-election. It would be relatively easy to primary a progressive who killed healthcare reform.

The real way to get liberals to be taken seriously is to have them win elections. Not to act "batshit-crazy" out of cognitive dissonance. To win elections. Liberals will be taken seriously when they are no longer a minority. Right now, liberals are a minority of both houses of Congress. It amazes me how otherwise smart people fail to comprehend this.

[grantcart]

30. A bunch of liberals did not do this in 2000

comparing this very middle of the road position to the extremist action you refer to is laughable.



The current health care system in America is very comparable to the kind of criminal conspiracy that you see in the Sopranos.

Money is taken on the basis of a contract for future payment. When those conditions are met Health Care Companies seek a 'frivilous' reason to decline. You have heard of 'frivilous lawsuits' well this is frivilous declines. A person gets skin cancer and is treated but it costs $ 200,000 and the HC companies decline because of a precondition and the applicant didn't list all of her moles on the application form 5 years before.

I work in the insurance industry. I am licensed by the state. Everything that I saw and every brochure has to be approved by the State Commissioner of Insurance. There used to be a law that if the insurance company used a frivilous reason and was found by a jury not to have made "good faith efforts" to settle claims that they would be liable not only for the claim but also for a penalty.

All of that has been stripped away and Insurance company profits have gone through the roof while cost has increased service declined.

There is a reason that every state has an Insurance Commissioner but not a Manufacturing Commissioner or a Retail Commissioner.

Insurance is the only industry where the client has to make substantial payments on the hope that when they are needed the company will act in good faith. It is not an open market. As SICKO showed so painfully top executives and claim review managers are compensated by bonuses on the basis of how many legitimate claims can be denied.

CEOs that install incentive packages for executives based on the percent of claims that are declined, and found that legitimate claims have been declined should be arrested for fraud and in prison.

You obviously do not have any experience with single payer systems outside of the US. If you had then you would know that we are literally 140 years behind.


The Germans came to a consensus on the principal of "solidarity" in the 1880s. Ironically it was done by conservatives to stave off the communists and socialists.


Today the conservative Parties of Australia, Canada, and the UK use such words as "national treasure" to describe their single payer system.


Health Care reform without a Public Option would mean that every US citizen WOULD BE REQUIRED BY LAW TO PURCHASE HEALTH INSURANCE AND SUBJECT TO MASSIVE FINES IF THEY DID NOT. It will not be reform but rather a substantial subsidization of these criminal health care companies by the US government.


I will not purchase medical insurance from any private company for any reason.


Your comparison to holding out for reforms THAT ARE CURRENTLY CONSIDERED TO BE ROUTINE BY CONSERVATIVE PARTIES IN OTHER COUNTRIES to the treachery of Naderites is perhaps the most ignorant statement on the subject I have read to date.

[BzaDem]

31. You just don't get it.

Your entire post is about what you WANT. What would be a GOOD idea.

THAT IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

I agree with what you say about our current healthcare system and would be jumping for joy if we could enact a public option. NONE of that changes the fact that it will not be enacted. Ben Nelson alone can kill a 60-vote bill (and would happily do so, switching to the Republican party if the Democrats gave him too much of a hard time about it). Any public option that could survive the procedural hurdles of reconciliation would have to have Medicare (or Medicare+5%) rates, and such a public option would not get enough blue dogs to hit 218 in the house.

This is mathematics. That is simple addition. But you don't attempt to tell me how my addition is wrong. You don't attempt to back up what you say by a list of 218 people in the house and 60 in the Senate to enact a public option (or 218 in the house and 50 in the Senate to enact a public option that can use Medicare's rates and purchasing power). Instead, you are so blue-in-the-face angry by these absolute mathematical facts that you propose ridiculous theories such as "batshit crazy level" as if that will somehow get us any closer to a public option. Your OP is practically the definition of cognitive dissonance. It also is exactly how a 5-year-old acts when he doesn't gets what he wants.

Your argument that we can't get universal healthcare through a mandate to purchase private insurance is bullshit. Absolute bullshit. Switzerland and the Netherlands do not have even a public option. They MANDATE that every person buys insurance from a PRIVATE company. Guess what? They have 99.5%+ coverage. No pre-existing condition discrimination, no lifetime caps, none of it. THAT (or close to it) is what we actually have a chance to pass this year. Such a bill would effectively end medical bankruptcies. It would end pre-existing condition discrimination, subsidize insurance for those who can't afford it, and create highly-regulated exchanges from which to buy it. (Even one of your own examples, Germany, does all this without a public option. They essentially have co-ops. Look it up.)

In some ways, you are worse than all of the Naderites combined. The Naderites prevented Gore from being elected, but Gore wouldn't have been able to pass healthcare because Republicans controlled Congress. So technically, the Naderites weren't personally responsible for all deaths and medical bankruptcies that occured from 2000-2009. But any purported liberal that votes against insuring the uninsured will be responsible and accountable for every death and medical bankruptcy that occurs after 2009. And anyone aiding and abetting them will be similarly responsible.

You say that you don't want to pay private insurance companies one dime. I really don't care what you want. I find it hard to think of something that I could care less about than whether your insurance money goes to a private company or a public one. What I do care about is helping people who are uninsured and who go bankrupt and who die because of lack of affordable health insurance. And I'll be damned if your whining about the corporate identity of the recipient of your premium check is going to prevent real people from getting the help they need.

Normally I wouldn't waste so much time spelling this out, since most people don't even pretend to want to know the facts (such as the single-payer-or-bust crowd). But you often make intelligent and reasonable posts about various issues, and I respect that. That's why I am so frustrated. It seems the otherwise-reasonable people in our party would actually kill healthcare reform (and therefore indirectly kill and bankrupt people) over this.

That is what makes me really lose confidence that the Democratic party can actually get anything done that helps people. It isn't the blue dogs. As much as I would like to see every blue dog voted out of office tomorrow, I realize the mathematical fact that there will always be a middle (according to the law of averages), and that is not going to change. But progressives do have control over is the rationality of the members of the progressive wing. If you succeed, you will indeed find that the "public-option-or-no-reform" crowd will be pariahs within a few years, and anyone still around who voted to kill reform will be stripped of their power in Congress. I just hope we can learn the lesson of *reality* first, so it doesn't have to happen that way.

[stevenleser]

34. Grantcart has demonstrated an extraordinarily KEEN awareness of the numbers in the past

and I am sure he has that kind of awareness now. People who have followed GD - P through the primaries know what I mean.

What I am not sure that you are taking into account is that the President has the ability to put immense pressure on members of congress from his own party to vote the way he wants. This kind of address is one of those ways he has to do this. I am sure that he, Emmanuel and VP Biden are working this from behind the scenes as well. They can put all kinds of arm wrenching to work to change the math and get this done.

The real question that needs answered is where the President will draw the line in the sand tonight and how forcefully will he do it. If he says tonight that there is no bill without a public option and lays the case out like only he can for why that is the best option, I think he can change the math. If he shows a willingness to compromise on the public option, there is no incentive for any Democrat who is currently against the PO to change.

[FredStembottom]

53. Thank you, stevenleser!

It is always promulgated that Democrats must compromise with things just as they stand today (or yesterday, even).
Presidents have "changed the math" throughout our history!
It's an indication, to me, of how badly our Democratic thinking has been tainted that the very idea of persuasion is off-the-table.

I am quite finished with all calls to be timid and faint.

As I stated elsewhere: let's all remember that these so-labeled Progressive/Librul ideas poll in the majority all across America..... if the demonized label Progressive/Librul is removed.

These are mainstream ideas!

Timidity and compromise = stifling of the public's will.

[BzaDem]

125. Why couldn't Clinton even pass a bill in the house?

We had the same numerical majority then. Why couldn't Clinton "ruffle some feathers" and "bang some heads" and "twist some arms" and all the other nonsense cliches to get even the House to pass healthcare?

There is no model for this. There is little Obama can offer them. If he starts threatening them, they may simply join the Republican party (as several did in 1994/1995). It certainly wouldn't hurt the Blue Dogs electoral futures. While this may cause cheers on DU, that wouldn't help healthcare reform get passed one bit.

Clinton actually picked up his veto pen and threatened to veto any bill without universal coverage (meaning at the time an employer mandate). That simply meant he never got a bill to sign.

[Bluenorthwest]

44. You are funny!

Such strong conviction that you can see the future! You can get high dollar for such skills, you know.

All that talk, all those adjectives, all that self proclaiming and still I wonder if you can define the word 'affordable' as you use it in this context. Knowing that 30% of what you demand is for lavish salaries and profit, tell us what the fuck you personally mean when you say 'affordable'.
I saw the Clintons do what you seem to think is Gospel. They got nothing but grief, harassment, and guess who did not get elected last time. That craven way brought us a Contract ON America. The loss of the majority.
But hey, you see the future and offer only opinion and rhetoric to prove your standing, so you must be able to define one word. Affordable. And it really should not take multiple paragraphs, and it does not need to contain criticism of me, or those like me, nor does it need more anointing of yourself as a wise man, a knower of reality that all others can not grasp. It simply requires a definition of 'affordable'.

[grantcart]

45. Your ignorance of health care outside of the US is staggering

1) Germany and Netherlands do not have a public option


Working for the United Nations I lived in Switzerland. While virtually nothing, including health care, is run by the government every minute of the day is under government regulations.

Health Care providers in Swizterland operate under the same level of regulation as Electrical Utilities do here. While technically private everything they do is under government regulation, including exactly how much profit they will make.

Americans will not accept that level of government regulation. American companies, unlike Swiss companies, can bribe legislators to undermine regulations.

Finally while the Swiss have come to accept that level of government regulation (for example they have a very high level of gun ownership but every year each gun owner has to go into local police station and account for every piece of ammunition that they had from the previous year, which must be kept under seal) it does not wear well. The Swiss have the highest suicide rate by far in Europe.

The Dutch also run their private insurance like we run utilities, everything is done by government regulation, something that Americans simply will not accept and that is not proposed in the legislation.


2) Literally no one in the world agrees with your thinking

Here is a list of 60 parties from outside the US and every party, including conservative parties agree that it is a moral question and that the government is responsible for universal health care. The Swiss are particularly contemptous of our system that they all describe in a single word - barbaric.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/grantcart/188

3) Your ignorance of health care is matched by your ignorance of the Senate rules.

The Health Care legislation, like every other bill in the Senate only needs 51 votes to pass.

Sustaining a filibuster requires 40 votes. While there may be a few Senators in the Democratic Caucus who will wish to vote against a Public Option, it will be very difficult for any of them to cross the aisle and support a Republican filibuster so that no vote can be taken. This is light years away from voting against the legislation and the pressure of peer standing in the caucus, the pressure of the Presidency and the strong sentiment of the rest of the party make it very unlikely that any member of the Democratic caucus is going to risk his chairmanship and standing in the caucus by voting for a Republican filibuster.

Moreover the President has included it in his budget, which passed and, if necessary the health care bill can be passed with 51 votes as a budget reconciliation measure.

All of your comments on "math" are completely irrelevent.


4) Ultimately this is a moral issue. It is as significant as the Civil Rights Act in 1964. There were a few Democrats at that time who thought that it was too aggressive and we should go slower. Fortunately we did not listen to them.

[AlbertCat]

71. The Swiss have the highest suicide rate by far in Europe.

This is because of gun laws??? Prove that!

Besides, I thought Finland had the highest suicide rate. But I'm not sure.

**********

I looked it up at the World Health Org. suicide rates per 100,000

Switzerland Males 26.5 Females 10.0

Finland M 34.6 F 10.9

And then there's

Russian Federation M 70.6 F 11.9

Even France is close to the Swiss... M 26.1 F 9.4
and Belgium has more M 29.4 F 10.7

And the Balkan countries are all higher than Switzerland.


Care to explain how gun laws correlate with these statistics? I mean since we know nothing about what we're talking about.... :eyes:



Oh BTW

USA M 17.6 F 4.1

[grantcart]

102. It has nothing to do with the gun laws

It has to do with the high level of government regulation that they endure - the government regulations on gun laws was an example of that.


The situation in Finland is due to the catastrophic loss of their economic structure that occured with the collapse of the Soviet Union. Before the collapse of their primary market the average Finn had a house that was worth almost a million dollars. After the collapse they became almost worthless and for a while suicides were endemic in Finland. I had friends there and some of their acquaintences committed suicide with no home and no job.

The situation in Russia is also related to the collapse of the economic structure and people who were once healthy now destitute, although I have no personal experience in Russia.

Now go back to your chart and do the following comparision:


Switzerland is composed of ethnic French, German and Italians (there is no ethnic Swiss per se)


What are the comparable suicide rates between the Swiss and these three countries.


My point was simply that Switzerland is a very peculiar place (it has never joined the UN for example) and is tremendously encumbered by government regulation. Control by the local Canton is extreme in the least. Comparing their health care and here is ridiculous because they tolerate a lot more government interference in their daily life than we ever would.

At no point was I suggesting that their suicide rate had anything to do with gun regulations although it is interesting to note that while the Swiss have one of the highest indiviual gun ownership rates (due to all males being in the reserves) crime and murder by gun is very very low. Use of guns in suicides is however very high.

[BzaDem]

123. While attempting to deny what I'm saying, you actually support much of it.

I said that Germany and the Netherlands do not have a public option. You confirmed they don't. Thank you.

As for regulation, you should read the bill. The insurance exchanges will be heavily regulated. The government decides which plans are acceptable based upon whether they offer a certain minimum set of benefits and other sets of criteria. Of course they won't be regulated as much as they are in Switzerland and the Netherlands. But it will be a huge start, and more importantly, it will actually large numbers help real people. You are willing to throw that away. How does that make you any different than Republicans who would also vote against a bill that helps large numbers of real people?

When did I say literally no one in the world agrees with your thinking? Of course it is a moral question. If that's what you mean by "your thinking," I agree with that. I'm just saying that has nothing to do with the bill we will end up getting from Congress.

Your argument about the Senate rules is laughable. Bills fail all the time that have 50+ votes but not 60 votes. In particular, Joe Lieberman would relish being able to kill a public option, and he has recently said that he would vote to kill it (even if he were the 60th vote). Your argument relies on people like Joe Lieberman. That alone should give you pause.

[grantcart]

48. I hadn't had a chance to read this outstanding OP before answering your

drivel.


Even the most right wing people in Europe consider our health care system immoral.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6490320

My parents have always been very right wing, my dad more so than my mom. Both were exclusive Fox News viewers and strong McCain supporters last year. The only issue they agreed with me on was healthcare as they came here from Europe and they fully understand how absurd our healthcare system is.

[BzaDem]

124. You are responding to an argument that I never made at ALL.

Please point out where I said that the Europeans don't think our healthcare system is immoral. Of course they do. I do. Everyone with a brain does. I'm simply saying that whether a bill is "good" or not has nothing to do with whether it will pass through Congress.

This is typical of the line-in-the-sand people here for the PO or single payer. In response to basic factual posts about their chances of passing, they either ignore the mathematics or say it is "irrelevant," and then start going on and on about how such a plan is a Good Thing. As if that isn't obvious, and equally irrelevent to what Congress ends up passing.

[grantcart]

135. Your incremental take a tiny lit bit of good in exchange for massive

support of the health insurance companies, i.e. employer and individual mandates is supported only by a very few and only in the US.


If the HC bill doesn't have STRUCTURAL CHANGE, ie either the Public Option or Single Payer it is not reform and a waste of time doing more harm than good.

[treestar]

55. +1000

Especially at your first sentence.

Still amazed at a post a couple of days ago about being "heartbroken" if Obama doesn't get a public option through and then listing personal family medical problems!

[dotymed]

89. THE MAJORITY OF "MEDICALLY INDUCED" BANKRUPTCIES

Are by people THAT HAVE INSURANCE but still can not afford the
co-pay and all of the other crap. Look it up....

[Grinchie]

101. Right....

Using your logic, you'd be happy purchasing a cheap piece of chinese plastic instead of a tool or object that would last generations.

You sound like a fricken bean counter trying to decide whether shaving five more minutes of the assembly line at the cost of quality is a good thing for a consumer, when instead it is a boon for the Corporation's bottom line.

Take your propaganda and stuff it. The fact of the matter is that Universal Health care is a reality, and it so happens that the countries where it is a reality don't have 59% of their budget devoted to the Military, and all the leeches that hang on to it.

You really think that 3 Billion dollar subs are good for the welfare of the average american citizen? How do these economically depleting instruments of destruction, which should never be used, god forbid, help the Homeless, the Uninsured, or promote technological advancements in energy, housing, or social welfare. How do they promote peace, when all they do is trigger arms races in countries that see the lopsided balance of power as a threat?

Screw you simplistic talking points about Naderites. That is just spin, and proclaiming Chicken Little prophecies is irrelevant at this point. In case you haven't noticed, the Conservative have already gone into Batshit crazy mode on behest of the Corporate Puppet masters. Whats wrong with people who are demanding the natural solution demanding for the best?

If they cannot do Universal Health Care, the last vestiges of any belief in the health of the American Economy will be destroyed, and the realization that our Economy is nothing more than a Madoff Ponzi scheme, complete with IRS collusion to siphon money from the Average American, will be earthshaking in it's magnitude.

Your "Triangulation" theory smells like old, filthy, Clinton bedsheets. Your middle of the Bell curve serves one purpose -- an easily manipulated, uneducated pubic.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

115. Switzerland and the Netherlands regulate the HELL out of their insurance companies:

They MANDATE basic benefit packages, no deductibles, no exclusions, no rescissions, no over-the-top executive compensation, no profiteering by hospitals or doctors, premiums and co-pays limited to a certain percentage of household income.

Now if you think that Congress could get the insurance companies to agree to THAT, welcome to Fantasyland.

An LBJ could do it:

"Look guys, either you set up a Swiss/Dutch-type system or we go single-payer on your ass and cut you out completely, comprende?"

Obama, not so much.

[BzaDem]

128. Don't look now, but thats essentially what the insurance exchanges do.

The insurance exchanges will have mandated basic benefit packages that limit deductibles/out of pocket expenses, specify no exclusions and no recission. The plan also limits premiums/co-pays to a certain percentage of household income, or the mandate doesn't apply.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

131. Which plan is that?

Link, please?

[grantcart]

134. the level of regulation in Switzerland and Netherlands is much much more

they would for example regulate the amount of profit that the company could make.

[ProudDad]

151. Or not...

The bills in the Congress don't do this...

[TankLV]

158. Sorry - but YOU are the one that doesn't "get it" - and YOU will be the sorry one...

[FredStembottom]

51. You must remember, please.

That these positions that get dumped into the "Left - Progressive" document-shredder box consistently poll as vastly popular, mainstream, majority ideals when put to people with the Liberal label removed.

Those of us getting fired up on this thread are simply trying to remove the blockage from the plumbing and enact what is already mainstream thought.

[fascisthunter]

60. you wish

[Chan790]

62. All we ever do is compromise...

and people pay attention. "Why should I stand up for your ideals when you won't even stand up for your ideals?" As an organizer, you have %$^%$@ idea how irritating that is to hear repeatedly. People have noticed that Democrats are quislings who won't take a hard-line stand on anything and draw metaphorical Conservative blood.

Sometimes you can't talk an issue out, you've just got to punch the other guy in the face until he submits unconditionally and loses the will to fight. (Life experience gained from working my way through college as a bouncer.)

[PVnRT]

64. Nader wasn't on the Green ticket in 2004, genius

Then again, I don't expect the Blame Liberals First crowd at DU to think for a second and realize that David Cobb was the Green Party nominee. So how is it that they "lost 90% of their caucus" again?

Oh, and I probably shouldn't point out that even Cobb was telling supporters to vote for Kerry in close states in an effort to take down Bush. Nope, probably shouldn't point that out at all.

This bill already represents a compromise - public option - that is now in danger of being dropped further to gain the support of a party hell bent to see Obama fail, no matter the consequences. They aren't going to vote for it. Period. Why are we trying to suck up to them again?

Yes, it is better to kill it unless it contains the public option. Just wait and see how Obama and the Democrats will be portrayed if there's a mandate to buy insurance with no viable, affordable public option. The ads and columns write themselves. Kill it, and it becomes the fault of do-nothing Republicans and know-nothing Blue Dogs intent on pursuing the interests of the insurance companies over the interests of the people of this country.

Then again, that would require "spin," and it seems like Democrats like you would rather just attack the liberal base rather than attack the GOP on their own turf in the media.

[ShortnFiery]

76. Yeah, blame us liberals because Al Gore ran a shitty campaign and chose Lieberman as

his running mate.

It's morphing into GOP light when you degrade to blaming someone ELSE (the liberals who voted for Nader) because Al Gore fucked up in a major way.

This little band of rag-tag liberals wouldn't of made a difference if the contest wasn't close.

So look in the damn mirror: it was ALL Al Gore's campaign, et. al., fault. :evilgrin:

[digidigido]

81. Liberals aren't taken seriously NOW. Yes DO THIS! NO public option, no bill

[Grinchie]

100. What a bunch of Bull...

Gore was eviscerated because he had a falling out with Clinkton. The DLC swiftboated Gore right along with Rove, and thats the truth.

Gore at least had a more progressive philosphy, such as his concern with Global Climate Change and Greenhouse gases, which would have been a stake through the heart of the oil cabal.

DLC and the Republicans are differnet in Name Only. The proof is insurmountable at this point. The DLC drones voted for the Irq war, and geve Bush all the funding they asked for.

Hah, Liberals... You sound like Rush Limbaugh.

[Beetwasher]

33. And If We WIN (And We Will) We Will Be More Powerful Than We Have Been In A LOOOONG Time

Good post!

[Tom Rinaldo]

38. Exactly right. When progressives cave on moderate positions

...there is no check on the power of the right to dictate policy. Instead of seeking bipartisinship on Republican terms, a recipe for defeat if ever there was one, we need to establish that the Right is outside of the mainstream by strongly making the case for our initiatives. Because we were chasing the will of the wisp goal of bipartisinship, Democrats stayed civil while the Right went ballistic. Attacks on the Republican Party for being obstructionist and defending a failed system remained muted while attacks on Obama for supporting Nazi/Socialist Death Panel programs went ballistic.

All this damage in order to negotiate with one moderate Republican Senator, Snowe, and a couple of pretenders? Lunacy.

[debbierlus]

41. It isn't too negotiate with the Republicans - it is to serve their corporate masters

Bipartisanship is a paper thin cover for selling out the people to the corporations.

[Doremus]

39. Amen & hallelujah! nt

[debbierlus]

40. Standing up for what you believe in and fighting for it isn't bat shit crazy

It is called political courage.

No more labels of the loony left. The fringe. The crazy.

Fuck them.

WE ARE RIGHT.

[TheKentuckian]

42. Batshit isn't required, contextual, or applicable

Boycotts, marches, demonstrations, and killing counterproductive bills aren't being crazy in the least. These are common sense responses to nonsense in the world.

Now, I do believe that our thinking or at least our approach should be rational. I personally do not see much in the way of alternatives to the public option to control cost growth, guarantee coverage, and to increase competition but that does not exclude the possibility that another mechanism that is equally or even more effective exists. There are few if any single solution problems. So, I think it is perfectly appropriate to be open to another route to reducing costs, increasing competition, and expanding coverage to all. That is the lever, it has nothing to do with private/public in and of themselves.

I can also accept that a bill can be productive without being a cure all, it won't make me happy but there are real possibilities out there that can be cost effective while making real efforts to increase security for many Americans. Bills can be wonderful, good, mediocre, unacceptable, and complete shit. I will not support anything in the later range, including the last minute homework that Baucus is slanging, at least as is.

My concern is that some seem more focused on eliminating insurance companies than achieving the goals of cutting costs, expanding coverage, and expanding consumer choices. It may well be the case that eliminating the insurance leeches is the only real way to met the goals but that call needs to be the result of problem solving versus a goal in and of it's self. If the leeches can be made to be useful and productive (as they have been made to be elsewhere) then it is fine for them to persist or even flourish, if not then we have every responsibility to put the interests of our citizens over corporate profits and/or ideology.

Being reasonable is elective but being rational is mandatory and it is important to keep rational responses out of the batshit bin. If we need to be utterly hardline let it be from the vantage point of being pragmatic rather than emotional.

[Soylent Brice]

43. i'm already batshit, so i'm upgrading to sociopath...

[grantcart]

46. I know what you mean

[Soylent Brice]

52. good, then i'll have someone to keep me and me and me company. n/t

[drm604]

47. Public Option - with no trigger! n/t

[bertman]

54. Okay. I'm going into the Bat Cave and dust off my Bat Man suit and . . . wait,

change that to . . . my Bat Shit suit.

Ready and Willing.

Recommend.

[Cha]

56. I think we're all pretty much

THERE:crazy::bounce:

[Peacetrain]

66. No kidding

[valerief]

63. You mean we shouldn't settle for nothing while, at the same time, give insurance companies

oodles and oodles of guaranteed new premiums?

[AlbertCat]

65. Why is expecting excellence going "bat shit crazy"?

All we want is an good bill.... an excellent bill... not a crappy bill that doesn't do what we set out to do in the 1st place.

This "we'll fix it later" mantra didn't work in the '80's, the 90's or during the Bush years. Why keep doing that?

If we went bat shit crazy on campaign finance reform... all candidates get the same amount and the same air time.... we might get something other than bought and paid for reps who spend more time campaigning than doing their job. Term limits are good too.

[grantcart]

83. expecting excellence is not "bat shit crazy"

not getting diverted and not compromising is that "bat shit crazy" part.


and we are not fighting for excellence - that was gone when we took single payer off the table.


This is a first step for fighting for excellence.

[dotymed]

91. ALBERTCAT....AMEN

[Grinchie]

104. You nailed it. It less expensive to do it right the first time.

Instead of building an unusable widget that doesn't work.

It's a shame that Universal Health Care was off the table, inasmuch as impeachment of Bush/Cheney was off the table.

It smells of Corporate Cronyism, and it hasn't stopped stinking to high heaven.

[valerief]

67. We need to get rid of the Senate. Just dump them. Kaput! nt

[pundaint]

86. dont stop there

My Democratic Rep Richard Neal, and all others who take the corporate brib er contributions and serve the financial industry over the People's interests need to be opposed too!

[SlingBlade]

68. Yep, K&R grantcart

[12AngryBorneoWildmen]

70. Please. Today let's show a little reverence for the GOP.

It's their national holiday-NEIN/NEIN/NEIN! Das tut mir leid.

[ShortnFiery]

74. Amen! My friends and family say I'm already half-way THERE.

:evilgrin: :toast:

[polichick]

75. Yep - the squeaky wheel. nt

[Jester Messiah]

77. No quarter asked nor given. It's time to go to the mat. [nt]

[lyonn]

78. My gawd I'm pissed, no more Mr. Nice Guy

Stick it to them Obama or plan on losing the next election. The dumb asses out there are like sheep. You gotta stick to your values and go for broke and give the public option at least a chance. Obama could gain a bunch if he is forceful and lose if he doesn't. Screw the Reight(sp) Wing.

Watch the stock market. Health care stocks are on the rise. duhhh

Baucus isn't worth having in the party. I need to write him and congratulate him on becoming a repub. Anyone have his address handy? I will eventually look it up. Like he cares....... his next election is foremost in his mind, not the health of Americans

[nolabear]

82. Ticktickticktick....

Ticking down to the speech, down to reform, down to the moment when each one of us will face the consequences of our involvement or non-involvement with the fight. I don't know if I'm thrilled or terrifies or both. I DO know that Canada's just ninety miles north if worse comes to worse, and how freakin' sad is it that I have that thought?

[ooglymoogly]

87. Indeed; Its batshit crazy I,ll be if robust public option crashes. kr nt

[Deep13]

88. Okay, putting on my aluminum foil hat and clown nose.

I'm asking the outhouse rat for advice.

[Grinchie]

93. Finally Grantcart, you seem to have met your Boundary condition

For me, my Boundary condition was the ultimate appointment of Michael Taylor to the USDA.

This Monster is symboloic of the DLC Sellout to Monsanto, and ultimately the Military/Industrial/Chemical/Big Agriculture/Banking interests that have a stranglehold on our political system.

It is difficult to understand how the DLC thinks they could get away with this appointment, but it was clear from the start that they knew it was going to poke at a tender part of the Progressive base. This is why the announcement of Michael Taylors appointment was almost a muffled event. First rumours on a monday, and then confirmed two days later, accompanied by Propaganda from an Astroturf healthy food site on the web why it was a good thing.

Well, nothing is more important than insuring that our food supply is safe, and that Genetic pollution doesn't destroy our heritage forever. Once GMO's escape, which they can do without anybody noticing, we will find it nearly impossible to contain.

If the DLC Administration of Obama had at least focused on any of a number of qualified experts in the field of sustainable agriculture, one that understand the hazards of our centralized form of Agriculture, we could have forgiven the administration for ignoring the rule of law in the FISA scandal, or for not going after Bush and Friends.

But alas, it's clear that we have nothing more than a new branding of the same old shit. The DLC is a full fledged member of the Corporate America that consists of the U.S. Government.

Screw them..

As far as Batshit Crazy is concerned, my version goes like this.

I do not buy from Corporate America at full list price. I will buy used equipment, such as computers for pennies on the dollar.
I will not buy Food produced by Big Agriculture, and only consume Organic food.
I will not feed my animals GMO feedstock
I will not plant patented plants, ever.
I save my own seeds, and guard them like gold.
I refuse to drive everywhere.
I will not watch TeeVee. (At this point, anytime I pass by a TeeVee, I get a headache from the inane commercial)
I will review Historical events, and become more aware of the patterns we see unfolding today
I will no longer support the Obama Administration. I have seen nothing that makes him any more palatable than a masthead of other Actor on a stage.
I no longer put money in banks, and would rather hold it in a true, no interest bearing account, like a safe deposit box.
I will no longer be held a slave by being in debt.
I will simplify. If I need to dut a tree, I use an Axe. If I need to till the soil, I will used a shovel. If I need to square a timber, I will use a broad axe.
I have learned how to collect, store, and protect potable water for me and my family.
I have learned how to dispose of waste in a safe, sanitary manner without using 2 gallons of water every flush.
I have learned how to identify propaganda and opinion shaping techniques in all forms of media, including the trolls present on DU.
I no longer compulsively belong to any political group out of brand loyalty. (They are all owned by Corporate America)
I have learned the Clinton, although likable, laid much of the foundation for the U.S. Attorney scandal during his term.
I have learned that NAFTA was the start of the dismantling of Industry, and the DotCom bubble was just another bubble, only under Clinton

Most of all, I have learned to be flexible and untethered to the burden of material things that force one to remain stationary or trapped.

The ability to live a simple, yet comfortable and happy life is pretty Batshit Crazy for most people stuck in the Rat Race, but it's the best way I know to screw the Corporations and their wholly owned Government partners out of the fruits of my labor.

[grantcart]

103. Sometimes you hire a crook to catch a crook

It certainly makes me interested in what they intend to do to Monsanto.


All indications are that they intend to take aggressive anti monopoly action against Monsanto.


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/grantcart/206

[Grinchie]

110. How about hiring a smart investigator instead of a guy on the payroll of the cabal?

I'm sure there must be one or two that haven't had their careers destroyed by Monsanto of Corporate interests.

No, you'r right, he worked out so well for Clinton and the Big Ag industry, that he's bound to have had an epiphany in the last decade, right?

I saw that post. Monopoly action do not affect the USDA, and I'm sure you can agree with that. Taylor is assigned to Food Safety, yet's he's the guy that foisted the paradigm of "Substantial Equivalence" upon an unsuspecting public. This one act, has prevented labeling of GMO food ingrediants for almost 15 years. You and I are guinea pigs, and if you get a disease, you have no recourse. You are on your own buddy, along with 350 million men, women and children.

You really think that this fight over Universal Healthcare is just to protect the health care industry? Not a chance...

This fight is so fierce because if Universal Health Care were to become law, this would eventually lead to real research into Nutrition, Prevention, Pollution, Clean Air, Water Polutiona, Pesticide, Herbicides, Soil depletion, GMO side effects, etc, etc, etc. These are huge Industries that really like having no rules or regulations when it come to arbitrarily polluting the earth and our bodies, because we have follow on industries like Health Care that treat the symptom, while ignoring the cause.

Monopoly busting is simple economic theory. If they were really concerned with it, they'ed be auditing the Federal Reserve, Fort Knox, and the DoD. Nope, not going there, because it all part of the Fraud.

All long as people have something sweet, salty, crunchy, or filling, they think it's food. It's not food. It's partially nutritious compunds formed in a way to resemble food, or what has been promoted as being modern food.

You stated before that you are not well researched on GMO, or Monsanto's influence over the years, and it's obvious in your lack of passion on this very important matter. I do commend you on you passion regarding Universal Health care however, and it's a good sign that you are waking up to the Fraud inherant in the DLC takeover of the Obama campaign.

Your right, we all still expect and should demand "Change we can believe in" Unfortunately, we haven't gotten what we voted for, and the mish mash of schizophrenia we see in the Democratic party, such as Blue Dogs, and Left, and progressive is just a slick way of manipulating people of different educational backgrounds into be divded, and easily ignored.

They know exactly what they are doing to destroy Universal Health Care. Unfortunately, they are using techniques Compromised by Bush and Rove for the past 8 years, and are desperately seeking a way to shield themselves from losing all support.

You are halfway to the point of becoming wakeful and seeing the charade for what it is. Keep striving for understanding, it will take you places you have never dreamed of when it comes to understanding how adept the Government has been in controlling us over the last 80 years.

[zeemike]

95. Agreed.

When the hippies did it in the 60s they called it "freaking people out"
And while I am sure it would not be the same now, we need to freak them out if we want them to stop being bat shit crazy.

[Vinca]

97. I totally agree with you.

We should stand our ground until we FINALLY get what we want.

[windoe]

105. Oh yeah baby. You don't want to piss of the left.

We can go crazy too, but with brains attached to braun. You will have sarcasm that will leave no residue. You will not even see it coming, or going. But things will change. We have been nice so far, allowing everyone their civil rights and all, because these are the real rules of the land.

The Constitution was made for times like this, not peaceful tame times. It was written because of extremism and monopolies. Anyone attempting to change it are committing treason. We cannot allow our land to be invaded internally by forces that want to change all the laws and take all our civil rights away.


The silent majority cannot be silent anymore, we have to fight for all of our freedoms all over again.

[katty]

107. YUP - stop being "NICE" to Unreasonable and Irrational

[Paper Roses]

109. I believe you are right. I hoped single payer would happen in my

lifetime but I was wrong. I've been fighting for this change for about 30 years or so, starting during the Clinton administration. I guess I've been let down too many times to hope something so necessary as this would happen.

At my age, after a lifetime of paying through the nose for health insurance, I just hope I go quickly because I refuse to have some big hospital and some bigger insurance companies take anything I have left. What there is goes to my kids, not anyone or anything else.

Yes, Medicare is fine, as far as it goes but unless you have the money for supplements, you will run into big dollars quickly with any treatment or emergency. Added to the fact that maybe your senior years may somehow generate enough money to buy the supplements, you have to wait until the end of the year to buy a policy. I don't understand that either.

For everyone who fought the good fight, good luck. I really hope something good will eventually happen. The President's speech tonight will be interesting. I hope I can get through it without getting sicker. Feeling pretty miserable right now, I hope it is not the flu. Can't go to the doc for something this simple. I'm just sick-in body and in spirit.

Good example of rock and hard place. Not enough $$ to buy supplements, do not qualify for any assistance. Shame on me for getting laid off, now running out of unemployment benefits and too old to keep up this fight.

Just what they wanted, right?

My best to those who can keep it up and to those whose hopes and needs are dashed.

I will not vote again. Last time I thought we voted the bastards out. I was wrong.

[Blasphemer]

112. Totally agree

While I wouldn't call it "batshit", the facts are clear. Compromise is perceived as weakness. Change has only come with bold displays of strength and fortitude. Civil Rights activists stared into the face of death because they were on the side of right. I'm all for any and all type of civil disobedience.

[Common Sense Party]

113. We at DU have been batshit crazy for a long time.

It's the rest of the party that needs to go guano loco.

[RoccoR5955]

114. Agreed! We have to now take it to the streets

when they try to pass something without a public option.
We have been reasonable. We wanted Universal Single Payer healthcare, then backed off, and made it Medicare for All, now we back off more, and make it a Public Option. They want us to back off more, and make it some co-op, or have a "trigger" for the public.
Call them on their bovine fecal matter. The lawmakers work for WE THE PEOPLE, not them, the corporations. Stand up, and let them know that they will see the door come 2010, if there is no public option. Tell Obama that he will face a primary in 2012, and if that fails, a strong third party candidate.
Not this time.
No surrender, no defeat. We have to win this one.
They are going to say that it costs too much. What about the corporate welfare that they are giving to the banks and such? What about the money they are throwing away on two wars? Rein in some of that spending, and there will be MORE THAN ENOUGH to pay for healthcare.

No more corporate welfare. Don't let the congress critters weasel out of this one. Hold their feet to the fire, and DEMAND that they vote for a strong public option, and we can build up to Universal health care from there.

It's time for us to take it to them and shove it right up their keisters if they don't vote for WE THE PEOPLE.

[tiny elvis]

120. extracurricular politics have naught to do with the democratic party

and the party wants nothing to do with them

Every once in a while liberals have to stop being reasonable and just be batshit crazy.

the party has trained you to misuse words
you say 'reasonable' when you mean 'quiet'
you say 'crazy' when you mean 'outside the party's functions'
this is the least effective place to call for extracurricular activity

[aikanae]

121. WHAT CAN WE DO?

I'm batshit over the insanity of this. Good average, everyday people are DYING!
Where's that in healthcare debates?

Dem's are proving they aren't any better than Republican's. Without reform passing, in 2010, Congress will be Republican again - then imagine a puppet-head like Palin in 2012 and 8 more years of no elections. No one should be surprised by Blue Dogs being formed by a Republican in 95 - which answers a lot too.

Dem's have done a lousy job largely because some (Blue Dog's) didn't want single payer or public option to begin with.
Starting with the name "public option" which even sounds like welfare. Why not the "Medicare Choice" since it's self explanatory and everyone likes Medicare?
And then not to have anything sound-bite ready? Reform failed because of an inside job.

A strike would be wonderful - but I don't think there's a way to make it seem big enough. Liberals don't have a major news network at their disposal. It's too easy for news stations to marginalize protests - like the ones against Iraq.

Maybe the core group of House Rep's are willing to participate?

Shouting down town hall meetings was really a stroke of genius. They appeared like a bigger group. News loved the headlines created and posting videos on You Tube made them even harder to marginalize. It didn't matter that anything said made no sense or who sponsored them or that many were bussed in. Why do Republican's have all the strategists and pr people? There are marketing firms boasting how they helped put down public opinion for Republican's on their resumes.

Something wild has to happen -
A "Sick-in" with people dying in the streets?
Do mass free public health clinics where people can see everyone without healthcare?
Somehow Congress needs to respond to voters again.

But I'm liberal. Facts are liberal. I can't think of anything radical.
Whatever - it's time to stop thinking and act or nothing will happen - again.

[grantcart]

122. a couple of things

1) http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8638316&mesg_id=8638316

2) large massive demonstrations - just like Vietnam.

They get a couple of thousand at a town hall meeting we have to have half a million in a dozen large cities.

[OneGrassRoot]

130. K&R n/t

[Ikkru]

126. You got THAT right!

Bachmann & Beck: A marriage made, well, you know!

[Sky Masterson]

129. I'll just watch.

:popcorn:

[TransitJohn]

132. K&R

:patriot:

[man4allcats]

133. I love it!

Accelerating from hyperwarp to batshit crazy on my mark. Engage.

[hay rick]

136. Line in the sand, litmus test, whatever.

Support of a strong public option is a defining issue for these times. Democrats who don't support a strong public option need to be opposed and replaced.

[Swamp Rat]

138. Moonbat checking in...

:D

[varelse]

140. Thank you

For the much needed call to action. If we lose on this, people won't just be disappointed - some of them will be dead.

[yeswecanandwedid]

141. In the words of a mccain supporter..

"We're mad. I mean we're really mad."

[proud patriot]

142. I'm always a few seconds away from Batshit crazy

Watch out! HIYA!

[1776Forever]

143. I am fired up and ready to go bat shit crazy! I hope I don't have to though but if I do I'm ready!

by fondofsnape

[grantcart]

144. now that's what I am talking about

[renman59]

145. I wouldn't make comparisons...

I've lived in two other countries, one in Asia and one in Europe, and their freedoms are in retrograde and so are their healthcare systems. I think health care needs some tweaking but not the the point where the IRS are involved..that's a deal breaker.

[Doctor_J]

146. All true, but our reps are cowards, and Glenn Beck is now King of the US

We are done being reasonable. But our reps are not done capitulating

[wroberts189]

147. knr

[knixphan]

148. I got my crazy powder.

Ready to take it to the streets for single-payer.

[RoccoR5955]

149. After the speech, it's DEFCON !

Attacked the healthcare industry well, called out the liars, but no commitment on the public option.

[Clear Blue Sky]

150. Right on.

[xxqqqzme]

153. I don't have a problem w/ that. My family already thinks

I'm crazy. But there are too many not brave enough to take that leap.

[NikkiN]

155. As I see it ...

The problem is that too many of us are not willing to do what was done in the '60's and 70's. We've gotten too comfortable with the status quo and way too soft. If we really WANT change - we have to demonstrate in numbers, not dribbles. We have to let Congress know that there are some other bat-shit crazies out here, not just a few disgruntled wing-nuts with an axe to grind. We have to be ready to let them know in force for as long as it takes. How many of us are willing to leave our comfort zones is the question. Obama can't do this alone.

[grantcart]

157. yep a large show

welcome to DU

[earcandle]

156. Agree, but what you call batshit crazy, I call acting with intention.

That means you allow yourself to get to the heart of the
matter and find out how to be the solution for common man,
where we count ourselves as well.  We have to group around
what is good for all of us. It is clear that the leaders we
have chosen do not care for us, nor pay attention to our
standing in the world.  We are about to lose everything.

The people who say they are our leaders are not working for
us.  They do not care that our peer countries and even
countries we fund have single payer, but we cannot have it
because we are wusses. 

We have to do something that looks "batshit crazy",
but that just means our publicity will want to label us
"batshit crazy" so that we stop, out of
embarassment, to belong to such an assn.  

No, we have to be intelligent, have character and focus on
goodwill, and stage our own coup and make federal national
banks that house our taxes and pay for those services that we
vote on, and nothing else.  

And we need to do this with the ability to arouse and allay
the emotions of others, with passion that moves and calms
those who need that to join in the plight of the common man.  



We must hold up the logical argument for single payer health
care, and recognize that dishonest companies who take
advantage should not be allowed to stay in business.  We are
going to put these people and their workers on the street just
like the high tech folks and the real estate folks and all
other high paying jobbers, but what the hell.  Then we can fix
jobs too, with the money we save. 


We must fight and if they do not respond then we must gather
our payroll and sales taxes (businesses) and deposit them into
a federal national bank where we get 14% interest on savings
and pay 5% interest on loans, and we get single payer. Because
that will pay for this service.  

We will take the money away from security industry for wars in
the world to fund healthcare and the planet will thanks us and
praise our courage. These security people come back here and
use this place as their toilet, puking hatred, racism, and pay
actors to perform against their own self interest.  We don't
want to wait until it is so bad here that we hire their
services to protect us from the crazy mobs.


This sucks.  This is bad news for us that we did not get a
single payer insurance option, all of us and let the elitest
pay for the crappy social club insurance.  We can ignore them.


To not give it to us makes us pitiful people in the eyes of
the world. 

Don't accept this, please.

 

[grantcart]

159. well I don't think Defcon: Level Acting with Attention

would have gotten much attention to act with lol

[earcandle]

162. what is a "defcon"? and if you are speaking to me, I said acting with Intention, not Attention.

Two different behaviors.

Intention means that you are willing to act as if you can cause something to happen.

Attention means you are willing to give your direct focus and observe something.

Action and intention may be related. Attention is needed to make the request,
but intention generates from the heart of the observer who decides to become active,
take action.

language is a funny bear. bear with it.

[grantcart]

165. defcon: Defense readiness condition - outlines the military's readiness for war

Stage 5 is everything is OK Stage 1 means attack is imminent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defcon

[lonestarnot]

160. Here's to batshit all around!

:toast:

[midnight]

161. Nice work grantcart.

[colsohlibgal]

164. Bat Sh*t Crazy - Oh Yes!

I love the mandate part and Obama saying that the Insurance companies need to stay, they play an essential role. Like - what role? I'm the patient, the doctor treats me, how are they essential to this?

I already got an email from Obama telling me to get on board, sorry Barack, no chance. We need to start to take back the country from profit making blood sucking corporations like health insurance companies.

[earcandle]

166. I am really pissed, dissappointed we are supporting this industry that makes us sick and profits

We must hold up the logical argument for single payer health care, and recognize that dishonest companies who take advantage should not be allowed to stay in business. We are going to put these people and their workers on the street just like the high tech folks and the real estate folks and all other high paying jobbers, but what the hell. Then we can fix jobs too, with the money we save.


We must fight and if they do not respond then we must gather our payroll and sales taxes (businesses) and deposit them into a federal national bank where we get 14% interest on savings and pay 5% interest on loans, and we get single payer. Because that will pay for this service.

We can take the money away from security industry used for wars in the world to fund healthcare and the planet will thanks us and praise our courage. These security people come back here and use this place as their toilet, puking hatred, racism, and pay actors to perform against their own self interest. We don't want to wait until it is so bad here that we hire their services to protect us from the crazy mobs.


This sucks. This is bad news for us that we did not get a single payer insurance option, all of us and let the elitest pay for the crappy social club insurance. We can ignore them.

To not give it to us makes us pitiful people in the eyes of the world.

Don't accept this, please.