Let's talk about merit pay from two teachers' views.

[madfloridian]

One teacher was in a school in a deprived neighborhood. The principal was not a very good one. The county knew that, but they put their less capable administrators in the schools whose parents would not be too critical. The parents cared deeply about their children and wanted a good education for their children.

These parents lacked the money and community standing to be demanding of a principal. No one listened to them that much except the devoted teachers. Many did not speak good English, some spoke almost none. In the fancier schools there were people to help translate and aid communication. The poorer school had little access to specialists.

This school had much of the supply money shifted from it to a charter school, or a magnet school, or a school of choice. This school had old worn out text books. Yet when the students did not "produce" in the charter, magnet, choice schools.....they were sent back to the deprived school.

Guess what. The funds never came back with them.

The children were just like children everywhere, some were intelligent, some were challenged. But there were not the amenities or facilities provided for them.

While the poor school had old worn textbooks, the schools with advantaged students had in many cases two textbooks. One set for home, another set for school. Didn't want them to sprain their backs.

The difference was not in the children and their capabilities and intelligence....it was in the lack of resources that were desperately needed.

I taught in that school my last years before retirement. I loved my kids and gave them all that I could.

A neighbor taught in a prestigious school of choice. Her daughter attended there, and had two sets of textbooks. When we compared notes it was like night and day. She was stunned at our working conditions.

Let's compare our two classes one year. I had 32 in my class. 5 were severe Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (AD/HD or ADHD). Two others severely learning disabled, with little access to any help but me. I did what I could. One was so disturbed that he would suddenly start kicking the wall, or banging his head on the desk. I referred for testing, got nowhere. The asst principal would carry him out of class when it got too bad. Then I had to settle down the class and start over.

My class was so busy with just getting by in life, coping with so many other things...that there was little teachable time left. It was not their brains or capabilities....it was the utter despair some felt.

My neighbor in contrast had the children of people who had the finances to provide what was needed. Children of doctors and professors who knew better than to send their kids to a school like ours.
They had access to home computers, tutors, anything they needed. The teacher only had to ask, and specialists appeared magically.

Needless to say my class did not score well on the state or national testing. It was not their abilities, it was not my teaching skills. It was trying to teach with constant disruptions, no help, and parents who were usually not willing to help at home. I did all the right things to teach them, but too many things got in the way.

My neighbor's class aced the FCAT and national tests.

Under the merit system Duncan and Obama are proposing, she would get a raise....and I would not have.

I taught human beings with hearts and souls and good minds, but life got in the way. I worked twice as hard as my neighbor, but it did not matter.

Children are equal, no matter their color, their race, their economic status. But unless we can address their problems of poverty, drug-filled neighborhoods, and often abusive parents...they will not ace tests.

That is the reality of what Obama is planning, and as a retired teacher I disapprove. He intends to keep the NCLB and apparently increase the standards.

The elite will come out okay in this, the others won't in the long run.

[grantcart]

1. Thanks for your personal experience, and for your years of teaching

I look forward to seeing how the policy is developed reflecting the realities you describe.

[roguevalley]

85. you had my classes. I always got the difficult boys and the autistic

kids, never had a class with 'normal' kids in my whole career. Merit pay is crap. Pay all teachers good money. They do their work anyway, they bust their butts for their kids. Give them what they are worth and fund the rest. I got 400$ a year to buy every text book, work book AND teacher supply for my entire class. That also included art supplies. Try and do that on 400$. I lasted 27 years anyway. I love the kids but teaching has changed so much I can't do it anymore.

[grantcart]

93. I am sure that you meant that for the OP

I was the kid in school that the teachers paid each other to make sure they didn't get.

[roguevalley]

95. I did, grantcart. sorry. As for kids like that, I always got them and I

loved it. They could grow the most and change the most. Your kind of kid was always my kind of kid.

[madfloridian]

2. And BTW, I fully expect the argument to be used that other businesses do merit pay.

You can't do that when you are teaching children. It's not like other businesses where the product is inanimate, and you don't have to cope with human beings and their minds and souls.

So you can use the argument, but it is senseless in dealing with children to judge the teacher by what they do.

[WinkyDink]

50. "Other businesses" is not an applicable term. Education, except in its most basic aspect of having a

budget, is in NO WAY a "business."
No profit; no product (I utterly reject the notion of students as "products").

[EmilyAnne]

79. Madfloridian- would you maybe compare it to being a nurse? Or even a doctor?

The quality of care provided can't necessarily be determined by the number of diagnoses or cures.
Empathy, dedication to keeping up with the most current medical research, an ability to communicate effectively with patients about complex medical issues, etc.

If merit pay is to be determined by test scores, well, YUCK!
I need to read more about how they plan to judge a teacher's merit.
The whole thing "sounds" good to me, but I am not a public school teacher and do not know what you guys go through.

[Hippo_Tron]

3. I agree with what you are saying, but do you think Obama has not thought of this problem?

I don't know every detail of the plan he is proposing. What I do know is that he is an intelligent human being and has to know that when you concentrate the lowest income students in the same schools, it makes the potential for success very low.

Certainly they could pass laws that say that the Charter schools have to retain a certain amount of low income students no matter what. Or (and I believe he has proposed this) they could offer incentives for teachers to teach in the toughest schools. And I also can't imagine that any merit pay scheme that Obama and Duncan might propose would certainly take things like special education and the difficulty of the school into consideration.

Now if you say that these measures are all too little or too short sighted then I could certainly understand that. But what you have described above sounds a lot like a Republican scheme to privatize education and I don't think that is Obama's goals. I think that he is genuinely interested in helping students.

[madfloridian]

5. It depends on whether charter schools are considered a step to privatizing.

That is his plan...to have more charter schools. Many teachers disagree with him on education, not just me.

He made it clear during his campaign that he was strongly for merit pay and charter schools.

It is his right as president, but it will not make really good teachers any better at all.

[Hippo_Tron]

7. That doesn't mean that charter schools inherently leads to privatization

Again, I believe what you're saying. But I also think that the difference is that Obama has other major components to his plan to address the tough inner city schools that a Republican who proposes charter schools would not have in their plan. The effect that Obama's proposal has on the education system on could, IMO, be very different than a privatization scheme proposed by the Republicans.

Your concerns about charter schools are not unfounded. But I want to know, do you think that the other measures he has proposed are just too small to balance out any negative effects that charter schools might have on the system?

[madfloridian]

8. I think they are continuing the process of phasing out public schools.

And gradually privatizing them. I know many teachers who feel that way. This has been the goal of the DLC for decades. Go to www.dlc.org and do a search on charter schools. It will amaze you.

There are good qualities about them, but the overall effect will be to diminish the public schools of America.

[Hippo_Tron]

26. You are entitled to your opinion

But I just don't see why Obama would be offering incentives to teach in inner city schools if he planned to continue to phase them out. If the idea is to make them fail ASAP and replace them with charter schools then I don't see why he is doing things designed to make them succeed.

I think Obama wants to mix charter schools into the process because they have done some good things and because it could bridge the income gap somewhat. At the end of the day you can't solve the income gap issue as long as parents with the means will pull their kids out of a bad public school if at all possible. But if you sell them on this fancy new "charter school" thing then they might consider it. And again you can require that the charter school has to take a certain amount of low income kids. Those low incomes kids attending the charter schools then make the class sizes smaller at the public schools which makes it easier for the teachers.

Honestly I really don't know how you can solve the income gap without trying something new. While it is completely unfair, "public school" in the United States has become synonymous with "crappy school" for too many people. Obama can't force rich parents to send their kids to public schools and he can't convince them to do that no matter how much money he puts into them.

Canada and Western European countries have public school systems that are absolutely wonderful and it would certainly be great if we could do it exactly like they do. But their societies have a completely different attitude about education than ours does. Obama can't just change our society's behavior and make us appreciate public schools or education in general like they do. Granted he is certainly trying, but he can't do it overnight.

[madfloridian]

29. It will be fine.

I am sure.

[Hippo_Tron]

35. No I'm really not sure it will all be fine

That's why I wish you would give me your input on the other things that Obama has proposed. I am not an expert in education and I do not proclaim to be one. For all I know all of these other measures could be too little too late. I want to know, what do you think of the other measures Obama has proposed? If you were to tell me why some of what I have suggested above is wrong then I could easily be lead to believe that Obama is misguidedly following bad DLC policies and that charter schools and merit pay are a bad idea no matter what is proposed along with them. But if you aren't willing to seriously discuss this with me then how can I change my mind?

[madfloridian]

38. I think you need to read the DLC articles.

I did post a serious thoughtful post which is being ridiculed

[Hippo_Tron]

40. I've read the DLC website quite a bit. I'm certainly not going to read the entire education section

And yes I understand that they make no bones about the fact that often charter schools are corporate in their structure right down to have a CEO and even in some instances have corporate sponsorship. But that is not always the case.

But I haven't seen a whole lot on the DLC website about investing in the toughest public schools, which is part of what Obama is proposing.

[Bluenorthwest]

48. I've known a few Euro teachers

And they got paid so much better than ours, had smaller classses, funding like mad. They took two class trips a year, one short, the other longer and out of the country. These teachers had professional status, and standing, and respect. It all comes down to pay rates and work loads. Not some vauge notion of our 'society's attitudes'. Those attitudes grow forth from the lousy pay and lack of funding at schools. Those attitudes come from the top down. Here, fail in business, you get a six figure 'bonus' but teachers, oh man, they need to be tested for 'merit'. That speaks loudly, in our common language of money. The top folks say brokers never fail, and should be rewarded no matter what, with tax dollars if they have destroyed the company, we have to 'pay' them that bonus.
So merit pay...for teachers, but not politicians, not Wall St, not industry...hard to buy that one. Accountability for all, not for one profession that is already hands above others in terms of giving to the community, and asking for little in return.
Rahter than merit pay, how about Wall St style pay, where sucess gets you a million and failure gets you half a million, and a job in Gov?

[Hippo_Tron]

64. Everything about that has to do with their attitudes about education

We don't treat teachers as professionals and we don't pay them as professionals. Obama could fix the pay problem but he can't force people to respect teachers like they do in Europe. And paying teachers that much more is quite a political hurdle because of our country's attitudes about education. Too many people in America think that teachers are lazy bums who take the job for all of the vacations.

[imdjh]

110. I don't see charter schools as a step towards privatization

I see charter schools as an attempt to work around the well intended but unworkable demands of forming classrooms at random from a student body that ranges from the brilliant to the barely functional.

[elizm]

43. I am a teacher who will support Obama's plan...

...because I trust he is not short sighted on any of these issues and that he will, as he has said many times, ask EDUCATORS to work together to come up with a plan that is FAIR. Why would he not be fair on this one issue? I can't imagine in my wildest dreams that he would forget about the poor schools and reward all of the others...That is not the man we elected as President.

[NYC_SKP]

9. He does not propose merit pay based on test scores.

In his words, all references to rewarding teachers from today's address:

"It's time to expect more from our students. It's time to start rewarding good teachers, stop making excuses for bad ones. It's time to demand results from government at every level. It's time to prepare every child, everywhere in America, to out-compete any worker, anywhere in the world."

"That is what we'll help them do later this year -- that what we're going to help them do later this year when we finally make No Child Left Behind live up to its name by ensuring not only that teachers and principals get the funding that they need, but that the money is tied to results. (Applause.) And Arne Duncan will also back up this commitment to higher standards with a fund to invest in innovation in our school districts." (NB: Results can mean many, many things, not just test scores, Obama knows this)

"And far too few districts are emulating the example of Houston and Long Beach, and using data to track how much progress a student is making and where that student is struggling. That's a resource that can help us improve student achievement, and tell us which students had which teachers so we can assess what's working and what's not. That's why we're making a major investment in this area that we will cultivate a new culture of accountability in America's schools." (NB: He mentions identifying different teachers, no mention of merit pay here)

"Now, to complete our race to the top requires the third pillar of reform -- recruiting, preparing, and rewarding outstanding teachers. From the moment students enter a school, the most important factor in their success is not the color of their skin or the income of their parents, it's the person standing at the front of the classroom." (NB: Good, we need to reward outstanding teachers)

"And if you do your part, then we'll do ours. That's why we're taking steps to prepare teachers for their difficult responsibilities, and encourage them to stay in the profession. That's why we're creating new pathways to teaching and new incentives to bring teachers to schools where they're needed most. That's why we support offering extra pay to Americans who teach math and science to end a teacher shortage in those subjects. It's why we're building on the promising work being done in places like South Carolina's Teachers Advancement Program, and making an unprecedented commitment to ensure that anyone entrusted with educating our children is doing the job as well as it can be done."

"Now, here's what that commitment means: It means treating teachers like the professionals they are while also holding them more accountable -– in up to 150 more school districts. New teachers will be mentored by experienced ones. Good teachers will be rewarded with more money for improved student achievement, and asked to accept more responsibilities for lifting up their schools. Teachers throughout a school will benefit from guidance and support to help them improve." (NB: Rewarded with more money for improved student achievement, that may or may not mean pay, it may mean giving them greater tools to exercise their leadership)

>>>This concludes the excerpts from today's address regarding "rewarding teachers".

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Remarks-of-the-President-to-the-Hispanic-Chamber-of-Commerce/

[madfloridian]

16. In my school with our lousy principal...

it would not matter.

I am glad DU supports merit pay. Good for them, that is their right.

I do not.

[NYC_SKP]

25. You would probably benefit from the Obama plan.

Which isn't merit pay, but about finding gifted and highly qualified teachers and providing them better tools and resources, or, in his words:

"That's why we support offering extra pay to Americans who teach math and science to end a teacher shortage in those subjects."

or:

"Good teachers will be rewarded with more money for improved student achievement, and asked to accept more responsibilities for lifting up their schools."

I'd like to think you'd qualify.

We need more great teachers! :pals:

[madfloridian]

27. No, not in the school I described. It was a dead end for all of us

with that principal.

All those fine words of lifting up the schools, not going over with most teachers.

[damonm]

77. OK, then-

You don't support this idea.

What WOULD you support? What do YOU think will work? Let's have the benefit of your experience there. You've seen it at its worst, and you know status quo isn't sustainable. What reforms/improvements do YOU think are necessary and/or possible?
If you want to open up another thread in response to this, please do.

[madfloridian]

21. Oh, and the "person standing in front of the classroom" is NOT the most important

The parents have the kids long before the teachers do. THEY are the most important.

Hell, I am retired, I am out of it.

Let the remaining teachers go along or fight. Doesn't affect me.

[NYC_SKP]

28. Having taught in a Juvenile Hall for four years, I might differ on that point.

Some had no parents and most of them had awful parents.

And, even for mainstream kids, I think he meant that in the context of the educational setting.

:patriot:

[kaygore]

116. It does affect you and all of us

NCLB has left most children behind. Merit pay rewards those lucky enough to get students who would probably succeed no matter who is teaching them. It reduces the art of teaching to a mechanistic formula. We need to change the environment. Obama and Duncan's plan will only put our nation's children more at risk and we will all suffer.

I am so very disappointed in Obama. I was when he picked Duncan and now with his proposals. (Also with his stand on single-payer health care or at least letting insurance companies compete with the federal government....but that is another natter).

[madfloridian]

119. "Good teachers will be rewarded with more money for improved student achievement"

Those are the words from his speech, yet some still deny.

It rewards those teachers with good students to begin with. We can only do so much. Teachers in schools with students who can be sent back to public school....they are the ones who will get the money.

[kaygore]

125. I could not agree more! Obama simply does not understand

and he has the wrong people advising him.

[dcindian]

52. Maybe we can fix the healthcare system with merit pay too?

Come on how in the heck do we come to the conclusion that the way to fix education is merit pay?
What is the basis for the argument?
How many bad teachers are there?
How much does each bad teacher affect the overall system?

Not even the basic questions about what is wrong with our education system point toward the "bad teacher" model.

[kaygore]

117. You need to start a thread with that comparison

Or doctors or something.

Very well said.

[NYC_SKP]

4. Sorry, you're dead wrong.

Your story is moving and all too true, up to the "That is the reality of what Obama is planning," part.

Your example suggests that the president has proposed merit pay increased based on test scores.

Obama didn't even utter the word "merit" today, and he hasn't mentioned tying pay increases to standardized test scores.

If I'm wrong, then show me where he has proposed that.

Here is the full text of his statement today. Please read it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8256457&mesg_id=8256457

I love teachers, I work full time with them, and some are in the sorriest neighborhoods in California.

I appreciate you, madfloridian, but I think you're wrong on this one.

:patriot:

[madfloridian]

6. Take your pick....I googled it for you. Obama, merit pay.

http://www.google.com/search?pz=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=obama%2C+merit+pay&btnmeta%3Dsearch%3Dsearch=Search+the+Web

There are pages of articles. I am right on this. He said so during the campaign.

[NYC_SKP]

11. Blog Posts? Articles from newspapers? Spin? Show me in HIS words.

Everyone of those are interpretations of his words.

Please note that I took the time to post his full text in one thread and excerpts in a reply to this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8256470&mesg_id=8256509

[madfloridian]

13. Those ARE his own words from MSM as well.

He did say it many times.

It is too late to quarrel with you when I just presented pages of proof. Here is just the first page of the google hits.

1.
News results for obama merit pay
Cautious response from teachers union on Obama merit pay plan - 13 hours ago
WASHINGTON--We embrace the goals and aspirations outlined today by President Obama when he called for providing all Americans with a comprehensive, ...
Chicago Sun-Times - 1300 related articles »
Obama, UN chief to discuss concerns at White House - eTaiwan News - 343 related articles »
2.
TheHill.com - Obama tackles merit pay after getting NEA endorsement
Jul 5, 2008 ... Obama proposes to raise teacher pay through merit based rewards for work above and beyond their positions. The issue has long been a widely ...
thehill.com/campaign-2008/obama-tackles-merit-pay-after-getting-nea-endorsement-2008-07-05.html - 51k - Cached - Similar pages
3.
Obama tells teachers he supports merit pay | Philadelphia Inquirer ...
Jul 5, 2007 ... Barack Obama today endorsed the idea of merit pay for teachers before an audience hostile to the idea, the giant National Education ...
www.philly.com/philly/news/8335627.html - 182k - Cached - Similar pages
4.
Obama backs teacher merit pay, charter schools
Mar 10, 2009 ... President Barack Obama called for tying teachers' pay to students' performance and expanding innovative charter schools Tuesday, embracing ideas that have ...
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090310/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_education - 23 hours ago - Similar pages
5.
Blog posts about obama merit pay
Obama backs teacher merit pay :: The SouthtownStar :: News - The SouthtownStar :: News :: - 20 hours ago
Obama again endorses merit pay for public school teachers - Rick ... - Rick Green | CT Confidential - 14 hours ago
Obama and Merit Pay | Intercepts - Intercepts - 15 hours ago
6.
Education Push Includes Merit Pay - WSJ.com
Mar 11, 2009 ... Mr. Obama's support for merit pay breaks with some in his party, who fear it can't be ... Obama, taking on unions, backs teacher merit pay ...
online.wsj.com/article/SB123668036405881929.html - 20 minutes ago - Similar pages
7.
Obama calls for merit pay - First Read - msnbc.com
Jul 5, 2007 ... "The most controversial aspect of any discussion of teacher compensation is merit pay,” Obama said, “and I know that folks here object to ...
firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/07/05/259258.aspx - 80k - Cached - Similar pages
8.
The Associated Press: Obama backs teacher merit pay, charter schools
Mar 10, 2009 ... Obama backs teacher merit pay, charter schools. By LIBBY QUAID – 1 hour ago. WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama called for tying ...
www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iT--F725ypsNTaNrulnuCGd8vt0QD96RERO80 - 7 hours ago - Similar pages
9.
Obama takes on teachers' unions - Jonathan Martin - POLITICO.com
Mar 10, 2009 ... Obama’s embrace of merit pay won’t go over well among a group that often provides key funding and foot soldiers for Democratic campaigns. ...
www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/19824.html - 19 hours ago - Similar pages
10.
ABC News: Obama Bucks Party Line on Education
Nov 20, 2007 ... Barack Obama, D-Ill., appears to have carefully threaded the needle on the contentious issue of merit pay: his proposal to reward teachers ...
abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=3894699 - Similar pages
11.
Obama Supports Teachers' Merit Pay
Mar 10, 2009 ... President Barack Obama embraced merit pay for teachers Tuesday in spelling out a vision of education that will almost certainly alienate ...
www2.tbo.com/content/2009/mar/10/102116/obama-unveil-education-plan-today/ - Similar pages
12.
Cautious response from teachers union on Obama merit pay plan ...
Mar 10, 2009 ... WASHINGTON--A very cautious reaction to President Obama's call for teacher merit pay from Randi Weingarten, President, American Federation ...
blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2009/03/cautious_response_from_teacher.html - 14 hours ago - Similar pages

[NYC_SKP]

17. FAIL: Those aren't his words, those are mostly headlines.

And headlines are mostly misinterpretations, spins, opinions, and a couple phrases taken out of context.

"Pages of Proof" these are not.

Come on now, you can do better than headlines!

I posted actual statements by the president himself.

Good Golly!

Did you hear or read the speech, or what? :shrug:

[madfloridian]

19. Ok you win...Obama is perfect. He does not want merit pay.

I posted his own words also, you just did not bother to read it.

[FrenchieCat]

12. Some folks who have much at stake aren't jumping to your conclusions!

from Randi Weingarten, President, American Federation of Teachers

"WASHINGTON--We embrace the goals and aspirations outlined today by President Obama when he called for providing all Americans with a comprehensive, competitive education that begins in early childhood and extends through their careers. The president's vision of education--and the AFT's--includes world-class standards for all students, new and better tools for teachers, greater effort to recruit and retain good teachers, and competitive teacher salaries with innovative ways to reward teaching excellence.

We also fully support the president's call for shared responsibility for education--among public officials, school administrators, parents, students and teachers. Teachers want to make a difference in kids' lives, and they appreciate a president who shares that goal and will spend his political capital to provide the resources to make it happen.

As with any public policy, the devil is in the details, and it is important that teachers' voices are heard as we implement the president's vision. The AFT stands ready to work with the president to make America the leader in public education."
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2009/03/cautious_response_from_teacher.html

[madfloridian]

14. 1st page of google hits. Defend him, I don't care. I disagree.

1.
News results for obama merit pay
Cautious response from teachers union on Obama merit pay plan - 13 hours ago
WASHINGTON--We embrace the goals and aspirations outlined today by President Obama when he called for providing all Americans with a comprehensive, ...
Chicago Sun-Times - 1300 related articles »
Obama, UN chief to discuss concerns at White House - eTaiwan News - 343 related articles »
2.
TheHill.com - Obama tackles merit pay after getting NEA endorsement
Jul 5, 2008 ... Obama proposes to raise teacher pay through merit based rewards for work above and beyond their positions. The issue has long been a widely ...
thehill.com/campaign-2008/obama-tackles-merit-pay-after-getting-nea-endorsement-2008-07-05.html - 51k - Cached - Similar pages
3.
Obama tells teachers he supports merit pay | Philadelphia Inquirer ...
Jul 5, 2007 ... Barack Obama today endorsed the idea of merit pay for teachers before an audience hostile to the idea, the giant National Education ...
www.philly.com/philly/news/8335627.html - 182k - Cached - Similar pages
4.
Obama backs teacher merit pay, charter schools
Mar 10, 2009 ... President Barack Obama called for tying teachers' pay to students' performance and expanding innovative charter schools Tuesday, embracing ideas that have ...
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090310/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_education - 23 hours ago - Similar pages
5.
Blog posts about obama merit pay
Obama backs teacher merit pay :: The SouthtownStar :: News - The SouthtownStar :: News :: - 20 hours ago
Obama again endorses merit pay for public school teachers - Rick ... - Rick Green | CT Confidential - 14 hours ago
Obama and Merit Pay | Intercepts - Intercepts - 15 hours ago
6.
Education Push Includes Merit Pay - WSJ.com
Mar 11, 2009 ... Mr. Obama's support for merit pay breaks with some in his party, who fear it can't be ... Obama, taking on unions, backs teacher merit pay ...
online.wsj.com/article/SB123668036405881929.html - 20 minutes ago - Similar pages
7.
Obama calls for merit pay - First Read - msnbc.com
Jul 5, 2007 ... "The most controversial aspect of any discussion of teacher compensation is merit pay,” Obama said, “and I know that folks here object to ...
firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/07/05/259258.aspx - 80k - Cached - Similar pages
8.
The Associated Press: Obama backs teacher merit pay, charter schools
Mar 10, 2009 ... Obama backs teacher merit pay, charter schools. By LIBBY QUAID – 1 hour ago. WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama called for tying ...
www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iT--F725ypsNTaNrulnuCGd8vt0QD96RERO80 - 7 hours ago - Similar pages
9.
Obama takes on teachers' unions - Jonathan Martin - POLITICO.com
Mar 10, 2009 ... Obama’s embrace of merit pay won’t go over well among a group that often provides key funding and foot soldiers for Democratic campaigns. ...
www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/19824.html - 19 hours ago - Similar pages
10.
ABC News: Obama Bucks Party Line on Education
Nov 20, 2007 ... Barack Obama, D-Ill., appears to have carefully threaded the needle on the contentious issue of merit pay: his proposal to reward teachers ...
abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=3894699 - Similar pages
11.
Obama Supports Teachers' Merit Pay
Mar 10, 2009 ... President Barack Obama embraced merit pay for teachers Tuesday in spelling out a vision of education that will almost certainly alienate ...
www2.tbo.com/content/2009/mar/10/102116/obama-unveil-education-plan-today/ - Similar pages
12.
Cautious response from teachers union on Obama merit pay plan ...
Mar 10, 2009 ... WASHINGTON--A very cautious reaction to President Obama's call for teacher merit pay from Randi Weingarten, President, American Federation ...
blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2009/03/cautious_response_from_teacher.html - 14 hours ago - Similar pages

[LisaM]

73. Clearly, there are those who just don't want to listen to you

I screamed about this during the campaign. It was one of the reasons I chose not to support Obama in the primaries.

Obama does not understand (IMO) the reality of public schools, because he has never attended one, and he does not send his daughters to one, and never has. I really believe that he does not fully understand the hurdles facing failing schools. As I've stated here many times, I think it's fantastic that he got the education he did. It's not realistic that everyone else can do the same. Among other things, he had extremely strong support from his mother and grandparents, who did everything they could to help him succeed. Families that value education as his did will turn out students with more ability to succeed.

Another problem I have with charter schools (other than grifting money from public schools, being operated on a for-profit basis, have unaccredited teachers in some cases who don't belong to unions, being able to spit the worst problem students back into the public system) is that they will gradually force schools in the worst economic areas to close, so parents will end up with nowhere to send their children.

[Dinger]

89. It's so Nice How Merit Pay Was "Tackled AFTER" The NEA Endorsement,

and after the $50 million dollars. Good one.
http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/obama-tackles-merit-pay-after-getting-nea-endorsement-2008-07-05.html

[madfloridian]

113. Yes, I remember that.

Thanks for the reminder.

Obama will get his merit pay. Duncan will get his charter schools, and public schools will pay the price in the long run.

Glad I am retired.

[Dinger]

123. Damn, I Have 19 Years To Go : (

Wish I was you.:-(

[Clio the Leo]

10. Are we perhaps oversimplifying things?

I mentioned that I work on commission. A part-time worker selling lower-end merchandise is not held to the same standard that I am, full time and selling higher end merchandise. A store in a major city is not expected to produce the volume that one in a smaller city is. I'm also not expected to sell EVERY customer I have. It's an across the board thing. If I don't sell four out of 10 customers, well, that's ok because not everyone's gonna buy. If I ONLY sell 2 out of 10 ..... then it's more than just the customer's fault. I'm dropping the ball somewhere and my paycheck will reflect it.

I am a product of one of Mortimer J. Adler's Paideia schools, the underlying philosophy of which was to take each child, regardless of background or perceived ability to learn and, as he put it "fill every cup to the brim."

I simply think that IF you can find a way to determine whether or not educators are TRYING to fill every child's mental cup then they should be rewarded for it.

And as rewarding as the knowledge of a job well done is ... you cant pay the bills with satisfaction. :)

[madfloridian]

15. I filled every cup to the brim. I don't appreciate your inference.

I resent it very much.

1.
News results for obama merit pay
Cautious response from teachers union on Obama merit pay plan - 13 hours ago
WASHINGTON--We embrace the goals and aspirations outlined today by President Obama when he called for providing all Americans with a comprehensive, ...
Chicago Sun-Times - 1300 related articles »
Obama, UN chief to discuss concerns at White House - eTaiwan News - 343 related articles »
2.
TheHill.com - Obama tackles merit pay after getting NEA endorsement
Jul 5, 2008 ... Obama proposes to raise teacher pay through merit based rewards for work above and beyond their positions. The issue has long been a widely ...
thehill.com/campaign-2008/obama-tackles-merit-pay-after-getting-nea-endorsement-2008-07-05.html - 51k - Cached - Similar pages
3.
Obama tells teachers he supports merit pay | Philadelphia Inquirer ...
Jul 5, 2007 ... Barack Obama today endorsed the idea of merit pay for teachers before an audience hostile to the idea, the giant National Education ...
www.philly.com/philly/news/8335627.html - 182k - Cached - Similar pages
4.
Obama backs teacher merit pay, charter schools
Mar 10, 2009 ... President Barack Obama called for tying teachers' pay to students' performance and expanding innovative charter schools Tuesday, embracing ideas that have ...
news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090310/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_education - 23 hours ago - Similar pages
5.
Blog posts about obama merit pay
Obama backs teacher merit pay :: The SouthtownStar :: News - The SouthtownStar :: News :: - 20 hours ago
Obama again endorses merit pay for public school teachers - Rick ... - Rick Green | CT Confidential - 14 hours ago
Obama and Merit Pay | Intercepts - Intercepts - 15 hours ago
6.
Education Push Includes Merit Pay - WSJ.com
Mar 11, 2009 ... Mr. Obama's support for merit pay breaks with some in his party, who fear it can't be ... Obama, taking on unions, backs teacher merit pay ...
online.wsj.com/article/SB123668036405881929.html - 20 minutes ago - Similar pages
7.
Obama calls for merit pay - First Read - msnbc.com
Jul 5, 2007 ... "The most controversial aspect of any discussion of teacher compensation is merit pay,” Obama said, “and I know that folks here object to ...
firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/07/05/259258.aspx - 80k - Cached - Similar pages
8.
The Associated Press: Obama backs teacher merit pay, charter schools
Mar 10, 2009 ... Obama backs teacher merit pay, charter schools. By LIBBY QUAID – 1 hour ago. WASHINGTON (AP) — President Barack Obama called for tying ...
www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iT--F725ypsNTaNrulnuCGd8vt0QD96RERO80 - 7 hours ago - Similar pages
9.
Obama takes on teachers' unions - Jonathan Martin - POLITICO.com
Mar 10, 2009 ... Obama’s embrace of merit pay won’t go over well among a group that often provides key funding and foot soldiers for Democratic campaigns. ...
www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/19824.html - 19 hours ago - Similar pages
10.
ABC News: Obama Bucks Party Line on Education
Nov 20, 2007 ... Barack Obama, D-Ill., appears to have carefully threaded the needle on the contentious issue of merit pay: his proposal to reward teachers ...
abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=3894699 - Similar pages
11.
Obama Supports Teachers' Merit Pay
Mar 10, 2009 ... President Barack Obama embraced merit pay for teachers Tuesday in spelling out a vision of education that will almost certainly alienate ...
www2.tbo.com/content/2009/mar/10/102116/obama-unveil-education-plan-today/ - Similar pages
12.
Cautious response from teachers union on Obama merit pay plan ...
Mar 10, 2009 ... WASHINGTON--A very cautious reaction to President Obama's call for teacher merit pay from Randi Weingarten, President, American Federation ...
blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2009/03/cautious_response_from_teacher.html - 14 hours ago - Similar pages

[Clio the Leo]

57. My analogy was a general statement, not directed at you specifically. ;-) NT

[madfloridian]

18. Take this as an honest critique, or decide you must defend it at all cost.

That is the decision you will have to make.

I don't think I will look at this thread tomorrow. I had my say, you guys go after me with both barrels.

BUT MOST teachers are against this. It is NOT just me.

[FrenchieCat]

22. I see it as you attacking at all cost.

and that is the decision you are making.

You won't look at this thread tomorrow,
because even those who might normally are not jumping on
your bandwagon.

Unlike you, enough are giving Barack Obama benefit of the doubt.

I know it must be depressing, but I'm sure you'll find something else!

Cause it's what you do.

[madfloridian]

24. Unfair, Frenchie, unfair.

They are going to phase out public schools and folks are rah rah rah ing them.

[FrenchieCat]

31. No Barack Obama is not going to phase out public schools...

and for you to think so, is as wrong as you saying that he is going to privatize medicare and social security, etc., etc., etc...

Really MadFlo....you need to take a deep breath and follow along till there is something there for you to fret about. Right now, you've got nothing. :shrug:

[sandnsea]

20. Denver ProComp is one model

I just pulled it together earlier. It is not a test based merit system. There is a whole host of objectives that apply. Educators need to educate themselves. There's good and bad in this system, and in Denver, if you don't want to opt in, you stay with the seniority system.

http://www.obama-mamas.com/blog/?p=194

[madfloridian]

23. Then merit pay is fine.

We had other criteria as well, but now in FL the bottom line is test scores.

Good luck on this and charter schools.

I will bet this thread will be locked when I check in tomorrow.

I gave my views.

[sandnsea]

30. The method of improving the school is interesting

Whether financial incentives are applied or not, Denver is using some good methods to identify areas that need change and create strategies to tackle problems based on their findings. And as some teachers said, they volunteer so much of their time, why not get paid for it when it produces results.

[madfloridian]

33. Of course you are right.

.

[Hardrada]

36. I know no teacher in Iowa who supports merit pay.

The overlords keep trying to apply the business/corporate model to education. It never works. It never has. Dickens mocked this very same attitude toward education 150 years ago. It was and is always, "FACTS! Facts! Stuff them with facts." Until we acknowledge the fact that this is very rigid society with really unbridgeable class differences we are never even going to begin helping the neediest children. The elite have never been in the lower rank classrooms except for photo ops.

[madfloridian]

32. Most people LOVE merit pay for teachers.

So I am on the losing side.

I believe that we will phase out public schools as they have been, phase out Medicare and substitute private plans, and slowly phase out Soc. Sec. by adding univeral savings plans which will take government money which could go to Soc. Sec.

Teaching is one of the few fields in which "merit" pay is dependent on the children to judge the teachers. Of course that is how it will be, no matter what pretty words are used.

Out of here, guess this will locked tomorrow.

[FrenchieCat]

34. If the thread is locked, it will be because you requested it ....

as there is no other reason that it would happen.

You think the worst of Barack Obama, obviously, as the "they" you refer to is really all about him.

I'm just sad that you aren't willing to give him a chance to even present you with proposals, before you go into these panics. I realize that Howard Dean didn't get the job that you wanted for him, as I would have preferred it for him myself. That being said, Barack Obama is not the boogey man, and he will NOT privatize any of what you have listed. Believe me, that is not what he will do....as he has never stated that he would, and Barack Obama, if nothing else, has proven himself to be quite consistent over the years.

[madfloridian]

37. They will not call it privatization.

I love Obama and I supported him. But I disagree with his education plans. The fact that I was teacher is not even factored into the criticisms of me for posting this.

Teachers know what I mean. The NEA may come out in support, but they would anyway. I know what is going on in the world of teachers....they know that merit pay does not mean good teachers get more money.

It means some teachers will...not necessarily good ones.

They will not call it privatization of SS or Medicare, but Medicare is well under way and nothing has been done to slow it down yet. The USAs will take needed funds from SS.

[FrenchieCat]

39. You are simply wrong.

and it will be proven.

Till then, you can do your Chicken Little Dance all you want to, but that is all that it is; a dance.

[amandabeech]

126. I am from a family of educators.

The teachers know who the bad apples teachers are. They wonder why those teachers made it through their probationary periods.

But, as you say, the administrators are often nuts. My Mom was extremely lucky with her principal, but I can't say that about everybody.

I have a good friend who is a teacher, a really good teacher by all accounts, and she hates NCLB.

I won't even go into the charter school debacle in my home town, except to say that it got started with a personal feud between a couple of very conservative parents against a progressive teacher. The charter school building is now in ruins and some parents look like greater idiots than they looked like at the beginning.

Another problem in the larger area is that religious groups are succeeding in getting charter school money for very thinly veiled sectarian schools.

Charter schools seem to make some sense to me when used as magnet schools (the arts, etc.) or even when used to support a particular pedagogical method, like the Montessori schools. Nonetheless, ones needs to make sure that the regular public schools get everything that they need.

[vaberella]

41. How did you come up with any of those scenarios?!

From my perspective they are ALL highly unlikely.

[EFerrari]

42. I think "merit pay" is a bad idea because a teacher only has so much control

of some of the variables that foster student achievement. And it is counter intuitive to add yet one more burden to already stressed out, under funded, under paid teachers.

Why don't we first just fund schools? Why not start with that and get rid of horrible NCLB first?

[ejpoeta]

44. This is how I look at it. I am not a teacher, but have been a student.

When I was a junior and senior in a high school in Tucson, there was a lot of budget issues. And a lot of teachers were let go. Not the teacher I had who couldn't even control her class. She was really old and had smoked for like fifty years and couldn't even really talk above a very low voice. I was shocked when I went into her class!! Coming from a school in WNY where we respected our teachers and did what we were told, to see this woman struggling to get control of her class was very unnerving to me. The kids just did what they wanted and I wanted OUT of that class. SHE kept her job. But one of the other teachers I had who was young and energetic and was a GREAT teacher got canned. I think that is what the administration is trying to fix. What the best way to do it is, I don't know. But the system as it is is not working.

[MadHound]

45. Yep, seems that the march towards a two tiered education system continues apace

One tier, the better funded, private/public partnership one will have more resources, better teachers, and better students whose parents can afford to pay. The other tier, the purely public one, will have less funding, resources, and teachers, along with all the students who can't afford to pay. This seems to be the direction that Obama and his Ed Sec. have indicated that they want to go, just look at Duncan's record in Chicago.

Yep, merit pay, based on "student achievement" simply means more testing for the kids, on top of NCLB testing and requirements. The funny thing, once a school goes private, it doesn't have to worry about NCLB. Hmm, talk about a way to cook the books.

You cannot honestly evaluate a teacher based on just a year or two's testing scores. You've got to evaluate their entire body of work, which is why seniority has always been a better way of evaluation. But too many people think that schools are factories, that they can be QC'ed like factories. Sorry, but kids aren't widgets. Until you find me a student assessment that takes into account the myriad variables that makes up a student assessment, merit pay is a bad idea.

But hey, if it's got Obama's name on it, for some folks it's all good:eyes:

[JTFrog]

46. As one who's always worked for "merit pay", I'm curious how you figure it's all about test scores.

I really hadn't gotten that impression.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/education/

Reward Teachers: Obama and Biden will promote new and innovative ways to increase teacher pay that are developed with teachers, not imposed on them. Districts will be able to design programs that reward with a salary increase accomplished educators who serve as a mentors to new teachers. Districts can reward teachers who work in underserved places like rural areas and inner cities. And if teachers consistently excel in the classroom, that work can be valued and rewarded as well.

Personally, I've never been a fan of NCLB because it punished the schools instead of identifying those that needed help.

Obama and Biden will also improve NCLB's accountability system so that we are supporting schools that need improvement, rather than punishing them.


I had hoped this would be seen as an improvement to where we've been over the last eight or so years.

[ItNerd4life]

86. I support what Obama is trying to do also.

however, you stated you would hope to see an improvement over what we've seen the last 8 or 9 years. I would
say over the last 30 or more years. Schools in the U.S. just haven't kept pace with the rest of the industrial world.

It's sad the schools are funded based upon the 'neighborhood' wealth. Poor neighborhoods need the best schools and teachers
to break the cycle of poverty.

[roody]

109. In any educational discussion today, the word "achievement"

is a synonym for test scores. Obama will have to save the word "achievement" before he can do something different.

[Pacifist Patriot]

47. Has anyone defined what constitutes merit yet?

Perhaps the issue of measuring criteria needs to be fleshed out before the pros and cons of merit pay can be intelligently discussed.

Merit based solely on test scores: Of Course Not
Merit based on 360 degree reviews: Maybe

I'd like to see something better defined before I can make an informed decision on the subject.

[WinkyDink]

51. THIS IS THE CRUX of the matter.

[JTFrog]

56. Interesting information here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8256531

[raccoon]

49. Great post. K&R. nt

[QC]

53. Excellent post based on actual knowledge and experience of the subject at hand. K&R!

:kick:

[dcindian]

54. Thank you for your service

From a parent with three children in public school I understand there is much more to a child's achievement then a single teacher. I also understand to what level my children will be behind private school children when they go to college.

If people think their children will magically become scholars because of some merit pay they are in for a rude awakening.

[Freddie Stubbs]

55. The President has NEVER mentioned tying merit pay to standardized test scores

Please stop trying to put words into his mouth.

[WinkyDink]

61. Well, testing would at least be more palatable poison than "impressions".

[izzybeans]

58. Hopefully they realize that Charter schools do not operate the same

everywhere as they do in Chicago.

CPS has more control over Charter Schools than in most districts, as far as I can tell. And they do at least mimic their intended function of providing "out-of-attendance boundary" access for low-income children to quality schools. Though the quality varies widely among the Charters.

I would be for merit pay so long as it isn't tied to test scores. Peer and principal reviews should carry the weight. There is already a system like this in place anyway; except rather than providing smaller raises each year for bad teachers they just fire or reassign them. Peer-review would allow teachers to protect themselves and to be judged based on pedagogical standards that they can control.

Good teachers should be rewarded above the pay grade. I can't think of any other way to do that other than merit pay. If they don't figure out how to reward good teachers they will continue to leave for private schools and charters schools who aren't bound by such strict pay grades.

However, if merit pay is based on test-scores and nothing else then the short-sighted and uninformed nature of such a program is inexcusable. Even "other businesses" (smart ones, anyway) recognize that sales figures are impacted by factors beyond the control of employees.


All that being said, with Duncan's history of utilizing test-scores to transform schools into "turn around schools" and then closing them when those test-scores stay the same with an entirely new staff, I doubt he gets it.

[CrispyQ]

59. I don't have children & I am painfully out of touch with today's school systems,

but I am sitting here, completely aghast at this statement:

"...the schools with advantaged students had in many cases two textbooks. One set for home, another set for school."

:wtf: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

I said on another thread that republicans have successfully brainwashed people to believe that in America, we have a level playing field & if you just work hard enough, you can achieve anything. The lie in that statement is "we have a level playing field." I think of a new generation of youngsters growing up in tent cities & the huge disadvantage that creates for them & I wonder how republicans can live with themselves, much less call themselves Christian. They make me fucking sick.

[BadgerKid]

60. Teachers are just one part of the equation.

I'm loosely connected with higher-ed, so I may be a bit out of touch with the front lines of K-12 education. Nevertheless, here's what I would like to see:

1. Stop expecting K-12 teachers to be the sole source of teaching. On the macro scale, society needs to value education. On the micro scale, all of us can play a role in education, i.e., the school of life.

2. Provide the money for educational and societal/community infrastructure/support so that teachers can point kids, troubled or otherwise, to where they can get help.

3. I keep hearing about the comfortable school administrator positions. Why not tie their position to performance or merit?


I hope Pres. Obama's plan can steer us in these directions.

[damonm]

74. You forgot the most important part of the equation -

PARENTS.

An involved parent is a teacher's best friend. The one thing I'm adamant about wrt education is making sure it's a team effort - the teacher & parents need to communicate freely & openly, with the parents backing the teacher's efforts to the hilt as far as the kids are concerned.
Where parents don't get involved, their child's education suffers.

[BadgerKid]

82. Agreed. Deserved explicit mention. Thanks. n/t

[susanwy]

106. Okay, as a parent I have to step in here

Granted there are cases where parents pay no attention to their child's education, but I'm pretty sick and tired of being blamed if my child does poorly in school...

I have two boys. I read to them every night when they were young and took them to concerts and plays. I enrolled them in music, sports and restricted their time on the TV and gaming systems. Today one of them is a bright kid on his way to college as an Astronomy/Physics major. The other might not make it through high school.

The difference? In part a good teacher or two. My older son had an old science teacher that really tripped his trigger and made him love science. He also had some excellent English teachers that taught him how to write and enjoy it! My older son's only flaw, he doesn't like to read for pleasure.

My younger son has an asshole of an English teacher who is ex military. Oh, and BTW, just because you're young does not make you a good teacher. This guy got into an email argument with me and called me "rediculous". Nice coming from an English teacher don't ya think? My son has learned nothing in his class, other than he does not want to go into the military. Don't get me started on his Biology teacher. The woman is a nutcase. No wonder my son has no idea what she is talking about most of the time.

Another difference? My younger son is VERY smart, but school is boring him to tears. He hates it, few of his teachers have excited him or engaged him. He never does his homework, but aces all of his testing. The administration doesn't care. He isn't a round peg that fits into a round hole, so they do their best to ignore him and hope we will just go away in a few years (which of course we will). I am somewhat sympathetic to the plight of school administrators because they have been so consumed with NCLB and have been forced to turn our schools into factories. I can't aford a private school and our local charter school doesn't go past 8th grade.

My point is we have to find some way to weed out poor teachers, young or old. In this whole thread no one has told me how we get rid of bad teachers. They do exist, and to think otherwise is foolish. I don't know if merit pay is the answer, but we could start by paying all teachers better and provide them with better on-going education so they can learn new teaching strategies. Provide teachers will all the materials they need to teach their classes AND equalize school funding. We live in a "poor" county and my kids go to the same High School my sister and I went to almost fourty years ago. Meanwhile the mineral rich counties have new High Schools with all the latest technology and laptops for all students. Hardly seems fair does it?

AND lastly, as BadgerKid pointed out, put the Administrators on merit pay too, or better yet dock their pay when schools fail, not the teachers.



:rant:

edited for grammer errors.

[damonm]

107. Oh, I don't disagree...

nor am I by ANY stretch blaming parents - I'm one myself (2 boys, 5th & 1st grades).
My point is that putting success or failure of a child's education SOLELY at the feet of either teacher or parent is a bit much - it's got to be a team effort, and if one side's falling down on the job, the other needs to pick up the slack - as you're trying to do, to your credit.
And I agree, there ARE bad apples in the system, and it's far too hard under current rules to get rid of them. I'm sorry your youngest is getting such a raw deal.

[Fla Dem]

62. I could never understand, and still don't why money for schools are so unequally distributed.

It only stands to reason that taxes from a well-to-do district will be more than those received from less prosperous districts. If monies are then allocated at the state and county levels based on taxes paid, poorer school districts will never reach parity with the better off districts. Why aren't the taxes collected for schools equally distributed on a per student basis. Hypothetically, if a poorer district school has 300 kids, and the richer district school has 500 students, at $1000 a student the poorer district gets $300,000 and the richer district gets $500,000.

I just do not understand why politicians and school officials would deliberately set schools up to fail. Any special funding from the federal government should come with the stipulation that poorer schools are brought up to parity with schools in the same county. Then if there is an equal playing field, merit pay would make more sense.

[alwysdrunk]

65. Local Politics

Like the OP said, the parents in the rich districts would complain\harrass\vote out the administrators if it was any other way. Some grass roots stand for the poor districts needs to be made. I've been thinking about that part of the OP for a while now. I'm starting to think that a top down approach isn't all that's needed here. Maybe the teachers should help the parents organize to do something. Maybe they already do but it's not effective.

This issue you posted about is a major one and has just a big an effect on teacher quality as anything else. As long as local distrcits are in control, local politics will prevail and this unfair allocation will always continue. Anyone in education proposing to do what you suggested would be out of a job soon, and not have the power to do anything.

[Dinger]

63. K & R,

from a fellow teacher.

[alwysdrunk]

66. There should be merit pay and also "hazard pay"

Teacher who work in schools like yours should get an automatic salary bump for working there and having to put up with these things. Not the inequality in resources but the state of the students you described. It has mostly to do with the parents, I'm convinced.

[acmavm]

67. Yeah, I see your point BUT there are just way too many teachers

out there who are absolutely clueless! A couple years back my son had a text book (history) that had so many mistakes in it I got seriously pissed off. His teacher wasn't smart enough to know that she was pushing bogus info. (The text books with bullshit info in them wasn't a new experience. The teacher not knowing what was true and what was bullshit was. I expected more than that from a teacher.)

Teacher's have spent too damn much time playing social worker and not enough time teaching.

Oh and remember, there's always those that graduate at the bottom of their class. I think they're the ones who have given teaching a bad name (to a large degree).

But now teachers want to be allowed to skip repaying their student loans. Which really pisses me off.

[greymattermom]

68. test and retest?

Why not test at the beginning of the year and retest the same group at the end of the year? Merit pay should be based on per cent improvement over the year.

[madfloridian]

71. So you agree testing the children should be criterium for grading teachers?

That's unfortunately what is going to happen.

And we will have a nation of test takers.

[XemaSab]

118. Here's the problem with that:

If you have a class of bright, motivated students who score 90% on the entry test and 95% on the exit test, they've had less of an overall improvement than a class of hoodlums who score 25% on the entry test and 40% on the exit test.

Yes, the teacher teaching the hoodlums should get hazard pay, but why should the teacher who manages to keep a class of bright students busy and challenged not also deserve something?

It's not a question with an easy answer.

Personally, I'm in favor of testing the students and holding back kids that fail.

[bonnieS]

69. Bravo!

My kids had to sit in their coats all day as the windows were broken and it was cold. Etc.

You obviously were a caring teacher, and that mattered to your students, too.

[LisaM]

70. Keep it up with your thoughtful, information-based posts

Merit-based pay - charter schools - it's all code language and it's going to create an even bigger discrepancy between educational conditions than exists now. I also think it's anti-union, since this is generally not what the union wants.

Obama's speech made me sputtering mad. I don't even know where to begin.

[madfloridian]

72. Yes, it does go against teachers' union...and the media makes sure we know it..

It seems to make the administration look powerful, batting down those bad old teachers.

They have tried for years to do this. Now it takes the Democrats to get it done. Sadly.

[LisaM]

75. You even are getting pushback here on DU

which is really, really sad.

Listening to people argue on the side of merit pay and charter schools is like hearing the list of GOP talking points read off on right-wing radio stations. It's very easy to make it sound oh so fair and right. But digging down to the reality of what teachers have to deal with is a different matter. People seem too intellectually lazy to do it.

[Dinger]

90. Good One Lisa

It is surprising, sadly.

[Hardrada]

76. Call or email the White House. I will, I think, to express my viewss (negative) on this issue.

[LisaM]

80. I plan on doing that

though I am sick today and can't talk very well!

[zulchzulu]

78. A friend of mine has a "bad batch" this year that will be a lot of work

She teaches special-ed and this year's "batch" (as she calls it) have particularly severe conditions and she is finding that she has to spend many more hours going through the various processes that these cases incur.

She's for "merit pay", but in instances like this and where she works (which is woefully underfunded and in states of disrepair), she feels like it would be more of an administratively draconian "solution".

Don't even get her started about NCLB...

I also have a next-door neighbor who also teaches special-ed and she has talked about there is always a couple students who drain her attention due to behavioral issues and leave the others in the class waiting around...

Both of these people deserve angel wings for their dedication... and perhaps a "merit pay" scenario looking for A's would not even be fair for them.

[madfloridian]

81. Did most of you realize that teachers are constantly evaluated?

With official written evaluations given every year?

They are or were done by the principal and/or assistant principal.

They drop into classrooms, take notes, have conferences with teachers several times a year.

Now the FCAT and other scores are measured in to grade the school as an A, B, C, and so forth.

Teachers have always been evaluated.

The other factors involved are not considered. Parents and students get no blame if things don't go well on the tests.

Just letting some of you know that evaluations are continuous.

[Mithreal]

83. Recent legislation in WA state that did not pass out of committee

but had many co-conspirators is expected to come back up later this year. Education reform here was focusing on union busting in the guise of reform. My state senator has told me to prepare for it's return and we are a strongly Democrat state.

President Obama was saying things during the election about education that were beautiful or outright troubling for teachers who know their local schools better than Obama ever could.

I would argue Obama's early success was due to his mother's involvement in his education, but we do not protect American workers anymore from unfair trade and how is the American family supposed to be strong when bringing manufacturing jobs back is off the table.

Obama said we need to consider a longer school year or longer days to be competitive. That's great, but President Obama, the school my wife works at is talking about higher than 10% staffing cuts and asking all teachers to take pay cuts.

[masuki bance]

84. Obama knows what he's doing

Why are you working against him in this critical time period?

[treestar]

87. Isn't there a way to gauge the merit of teachers

that does not tie it to the specific performance of the students?

Obviously a special education teacher is not of less "merit" because the students do not end up in college.

Likewise with the other socioeconomic factors related to student performance.

[madfloridian]

88. Yes, it has been done for years. See my post just above yours

Teachers are constantly evaluated.

[treestar]

96. Just like any other job

It's not as if those in education can't tell who is good and who is average without making it directly tied to the students' grades.

[Jakes Progress]

91. Some of the replies to this post are very disheartening.

Some object because, well just because anything said that might be taken as a disagreement with President Obama is sacrilege. They are still in lock down election mode. So their objection is automatic and thoughtless. We can ignore them.

The posts that object because they really think this is doable are not reality based. I worked in the schools for thirty years. Every single bad thing that goes on in schools started as something that someone thought would improve schools. The Denver plan seems like the same. I have friends there who tell me it is just the same old, same old. A few hyper types and ass-kissers move up a few points. The whole thing becomes about meeting the minimum required to accomplish a limited objective. The big objective may be to increase teacher expertise. The devilment is in the details. Who gets to decide what training will do this? What publishers and what consultant firms will get the loot for the training? How many hours? If you go 12 hours, is that better than 11 hours? What if the trainer were more advanced at one than the other? Can the teachers do it online? The goal becomes the cheapest, easiest, quickest method to get the money.

I'm not against more teacher training. I'm not against improving teaching skills. I'm not even against testing students. But the details always work downhill. What starts as a good idea under one principal or superintendent or even president becomes morphed into the desired outcome of the next principal or superintendent or president. I doubt that I would disagree with any standards that President Obama would start out with, but I know that by the time that the next republican puppet buffoon is in office the goals would change into something unrecognizable.

Second are the anti-union posts. Many here are all for collective bargaining and union solidarity except when it comes to teachers. Then they use the word "union" with the same tone that you would hear from bill o'really.

And last is main problem. Education is more complicated than people like to think. Schooling is the closest thing America has to a universal experience. It encompasses a wider swath of cultures, races, belief systems, expectations and abilities than any other aspect of our country. People like to think that setting up a set of standards to judge good teachers from bad would be simple. But few think that could be done with their job. Could we set up a nationwide set of standards for what it meant to be a good fireman? How about a good accountant? Why don't we have merit pay for congress? Once you get past the slogans and the buzz words, you get into the nitty gritty of the desk and the blackboard. Education is not a business. The purpose of business it to make a profit by cutting losses and concentrating on doing a few things well. We don't have the luxury of eliminating our losses. We educate them all. There are parts of society that are not business: Police, Education, Defense, even Medicine. The more that business creeps into these fields, the worse they become. Some business practices might be needed, but not the goals and outcomes.

When I hear of "successful" merit pay plans, I think back on the glorious goals that were expected for so many education programs. NCLB was started with with the best of interests and has only exacerbated the problem of two-tiered education that it purported to combat. National Standards trumpeted testing with better tests to improve teaching. Now we have increasingly brain-dead high stakes state tests that limit the curriculum to a fifth of what it used to be. Merit pay promises to reward the best teachers but will end up driving the best from the classroom and promoting those with eyes on the bottom line and their pocket book rather than the children in their classrooms.

There are things that will help improve schools, but they are all hard and expensive. Another layer of distraction, testing, and checklists will not help.

[madfloridian]

92. "Many here are all for collective bargaining and union solidarity except when it comes to teachers."

You are right.

The tone when the words "teachers unions" are used....is dismaying.

Very good post.

[QC]

104. You should make this an OP--it's one of the most intelligent posts I have seen on this topic. n/t

[Time for change]

94. I hope that Obama takes advice like this to heart.

It is such a shame to give teachers working for rich schools even more advantages over teachers working for poor ones.

[totodeinhere]

97. A question.

The principal was not a very good one.

If the principal was not very good, then why weren't they removed from their post? Education of our children is too important to be left to anyone but the very best administrators and teachers.

[madfloridian]

99. This one was removed over the summer, back in the fall.

Very quietly. The principal was back by the start of the next school year, having threatened to sue the county and state.

It happens that way often. It is kept fairly quiet.

I have it from the mouth of the superintendent that he knew the incompetence. He wanted teachers to fill grievances, but if they did that they would be given bad ratings.

Vicious circle.

[totodeinhere]

100. That's one of the things that is wrong with our educational system.

Incompetent teachers and administrators are protected and it's almost impossible to remove them. Yet when in the past I have raised this issue I have been accused of using right wing talking points. It's just wrong.

[madfloridian]

101. I seldom saw incompetent teachers who were not removed.

That really is a talking point, actually.

Incompetent administrators...another matter and different tactics to deal with them.

People have been led to believe there are so many bad teachers. Not true at all.

Parents and kids will say a teacher is bad if they have to give them difficult truths.

[mzmolly]

98. I agree with you Mad.

Unless we have an understanding of what teachers in poverty stricken areas deal with, and provide "merit" pay to those who take on the challenges you did, it's just plain wrong.

[BrklynLiberal]

102. IF test results are to be compared, they should be compared only to other classes in the same

school...and the teachers' merits would be based on who is doing the best within the same environment.

This type of system might also encourage more/better teachers to go into the disadvantaged areas where they might be able to accomplish more than they would in a school full of gifted children...and teachers with all the extras that a "good" school has.
They could become the big fish in the little pond, so to speak.

[MasonJar]

103. Too much emphasis is put on testing. In Kentucky, which has KERA

standards, we were instructed to teach for the test. Standards are worthwhile, but testing is not the answer. Schools have multiple reasons for failing, many of which were mentioned above. A bad principal will create a bad school. Even a decent principal who has no standards except catering to parents can diminish a school. MOST OF THE TEACHERS THAT I HAVE OBSERVED IN MY MANY YEARS OF TEACHING in many different schools are DEDICATED. Most teach the students what their particular class needs. Those needs often vary from period to period. Of course subject matter is crucial and relevant and sacrasanct, but some students have not the background to compete with the advantaged youth, who set the standards for success on the tests. It is usually the society and the neighborhood and even the parents who create the disparity, not the teachers. I am retired so I have no slice of this pie. The Obama plan is fallacious and detrimental to learning. If I were a dedicated teacher struggling to instill knowledge in an impossible situation, I'd find different work. This plan is an invitation for the dedicated to go on to better paying jobs. It can spell disaster for the public school systems.

[madfloridian]

105. Yes. Too much testing. Yes. Most teachers are dedicated.

Very much agree. And principals set the tone of the school.

[roody]

108. Here's one for the teacher bashers.

Two teachers at my school are taking a fifth grade class on an overnight field trip to Fort Ross, an historic place on the Pacific Coast. They are going on spring break for a variety of reasons. That is called volunteerism.

[JerseygirlCT]

111. Do we know yet what the criteria will be for judging merit and

how it will be judged?

[madfloridian]

112. Obama's support of this is turning people against teachers.

Whether it was intended or not.

His support of charter schools is well-known and has been. The tiered system will continue, and the poor and the deprived among us will still lose out.

I am almost sorry I wrote this. It was such a tragedy to see the elite get the best facilities while we had to buy everything our kids needed, and had no resources to speak of. I thought it might make a difference....

BUT I learned something. If Obama speaks out for something, it is considered to be the right thing. Those who differ are unintelligent.

[kaygore]

114. I wish so much that I could recommend this, but I am too late

YES! You have it correct. So much else can get in the way that what Obama and Duncan are demanding is a cheap, simple, and disastrous "solution" to a very complex issue.

[madfloridian]

115. I think from what I have seen here at a dem forum...

that it will be relatively easy to phase schools into the tiered level whether you call them charter or choice or magnet....and they will not be traditional public schools which teach all children regardless of race, creed, or ability.

I think it will be easy to do now.

[XemaSab]

120. I went to a school like the one you taught at for 6th grade

Most of the kids were illiterate or barely literate.

My solution?

Don't let them pass first grade if they can't read.

Fancy textbooks are all well and good, but what's the point if the kids can't read them? There's no reason why a 6th grade teacher should be working on basic reading skills.

[madfloridian]

121. Florida has a rule like that.

They must stay in third grade forever if they don't pass the 3rd grade FCAT.

What do you say to those who can't? There really are those who can't, you know.

:shrug:

Nevermind, ain't worth it. Glad I retired.

[XemaSab]

122. Kids who never learn to read

should never be in a mainstream school.

That's what I say to that.

[sohndrsmith]

124. Wow. Just wow. Thank you for every minute of every day...

Clearly, standardized testing (and basing merit pay on those test scores) is nothing less than insane (unless, in a perfect world, all classrooms were universally equivalent. This is not and never will be a perfect world, though, so we can forget that).

Far as I'm concerned you deserve combat pay, double-time pay, a massive bonus for the next decade. You're right - it's not the kids fault and it's not your lack of teaching skills (you didn't have a chance to really do that, given such an impossible environment). What's sad is that as awful as it was for you, the kids are the ones who really lose. How devastating to actually have a good teacher right there - but in conditions so counterproductive the students, the good teaching doesn't get to the kids right in front of you.

I agree with you, too, that children (people, in fact) are equal regardless of race, wealth, status, whatever. But they are not necessarily equal developmentally, cognitively, emotionally, socially, etc., and to expect kids to learn when they are lumped together even though they have such drastically different learning requirements and needs - simply because they have the same chronological age - is nuts...! No, it's beyond nuts! The only equality in such a situation is how unfair it is to the students - all of 'em. The one's who are capable, well-fed and ready to learn, AND the 5 with adhd and/or other disruptive behaviours/difficulties. Putting them (and you) in such a situation with any preconceived expectations is ludicrous.

The class size is alarming. 32??? Seriously? Even if they were all "model" students - that's too much... they're KIDS. I'm not sure if you mentioned how old they are, but I get the impression they're elementary or middle school age. Doesn't matter. It's too much unless we're talking college (even then, I think the smaller - the better).

Question: Everything else being equal, if your class size was greatly reduced and were more developmentally/behaviourally similar in a fairly general way (whether that be studious and attentive or struggling with learning and/or emotional difficulties) it would have made a difference - primarily for them, but also for you because you could actually be effective - and better.

I wish the focus was on legislation that outlawed class size - while giving more opportunities to a greater number of teachers so that we had enough good teachers to go around. The problem with that is - once again - funding. Something needs to change. Too bad we can't pay more experienced/senior teachers extra as teacher/mentors so they could educate new teachers, benefit from their assistance and do right by the kids by actually having enough teachers so they can move beyond crowd control... Or something... I don't know. What we have now is broken and needs fixing. It's so important. I can't think of anything more important, frankly.

I'm just stricken by your story. It is so wrong on so many levels. ...Sorry for the response-rant.

And thank you...

[madfloridian]

129. Thanks for your thoughtful response.

Children are equal human beings, and you are right....they learn in different ways and may not be able to reach goals others can reach.

You can not decide that every child will learn exactly the same thing at the same time...not gonna happen.

[edc]

127. There are bad ideas

:dunce: and there are really bad ideas. Merit pay is the latter. It's such a bad idea that it has to be peddled as a good idea and called something else, in this case calling a bonus system a merit system. No public employees anywhere doing anything should be candidates for bonuses. They've caused enough trouble on Wall St. Public service works because the relationships between people in public service are essentially collegial, not competitive. That's as true for cops and firefighters and soldiers as it is for teachers and other public servants.

I really hate to see President Obama speaking with the mouth of Bill Gates, who thinks that all things public should be run as ruthlessly as Microsoft. Gates should content himself with eventually developing a computer operating system that works right instead of crushing his competitors. And President Obama should put his kids in the DC public school system before he starts shilling for the privatization movement.

[lgartzma]

128. Teacher merit pay

I will love when merit pay is adopted. Imagine NYC, Chicago, and LA trying to figure this one out. The last time I was able to access scores of students in different classes at a middle school, the English teacher, who was arguably the worst disciplinarian, least organized, and most indifferent to presenting lessons of all the teachers had students whose scores increased the most. This happened by statistical chance or by her having played the tapes of every story in the literature book. Maybe the students learned enough new words (the average reading level in the school was about fourth grade level) to improve their scores. On the other hand, they may have just guessed better that year. In addition, maybe they learned enough in their history class to improve their language arts scores. Merit--you may think you know good teaching when you see it. Then again, you might not.

[BlooInBloo]

130. Teachers: no accountability. nothing is in any way their fault, and there's nothing they can do

about it.

Sounds to me more and more like we need new teachers.