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Jeneral Donating Member (54 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 06:46 AM
Original message
To what extent was the sub prime crisis caused by Bill Clinton?
To what extent was the sub prime crisis caused by Bill Clinton?
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skiddlybop Donating Member (408 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. Compared to Bush, the Republican
de-regulators and the unholy alliance of the Christian right, and the corporate welfare complex of the Rethugs,

not at all.

Welcome to DU!
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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 07:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. Very litte, but not zero.
He did sign the repeal of the Glass-Steagal act, but whether or not he did it deliberately is up for debate.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. It's true that his veto would have been overriden
Still, he should not have signed it.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. Not necassarily
On the original Senate vote, Hollings (sc) was the only Democrat to vote for the budget (where the bill was inserted without a vote). If Clinton had insisted before the Senate vote that he would veto any budget containing it - it might not have passed the Senate in the first place. (The same might be true of the House)

If the President vetoed it - obviously explaining his objections - I seriously doubt enough Democrats would vote to overturn the veto - they were not that keen on the bill originally. (In fairness, I could not find any statement in the Senate record where an original "no" vote was due to Glass - Segal.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
53. That I had forgotten or not realized
In retrospect, Clinton should have been fighting the deregulatory trend much harder than he actually did.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. He said he'd do it again less than a year ago.
So I think that it's not really debatable.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #28
43. Right, I don't understand WHY he said that other than the technical veto by reThugs
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
46. He fucked over minorities to do it.
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FormerDittoHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
49. Economic policy is not written in stone. It has to change as time passes.
It's like steering a car. You can't lock the wheel into "the right position" and not expect it to get into an accident.

Whatever Clinton did, at the time, has to be looked upon as part of a history of economic decisions, what they did AT THE TIME and how they changed things. If you look at the typical metrics of stock market, employment, inflation, interest rates and national deficit, I think it's pretty fair to say he did a pretty damn good job.

The big point, however, is to ask what 'course corrections' were done in the YEARS that follow.

The record of the Bush administration is so bad it literally invites conspiracy theories, but the fact is that if we were to return to the car metaphor, it was as if Bush got into the car, sat behind the driver's wheel, saw the car going off the road, listened to the screams of the people telling him to change course, but he did nothing.

Then, the Republicans, while crying out "take responsibility" go back and pretend that the way to drive a car is to tie down the steering wheel and not touch it, and blame the guy who last touched the wheel.

That's my take.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
3. To what extent was the loss (theft) of billions (trillions) in Iraq caused by George Bush?
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 07:03 AM by WinkyDink
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 07:05 AM
Response to Original message
4. Glass-Seagall Act was the major thing on BC and that was about it.
The rest of the problem is by bankers and never forget it. It's bankers who were giving the loans not BC, it was Bankers falsifying claims not Bill Clinton, it's the bankers who knew better but said okay not the people or bankers. Bankers would know very well these people are over their heads because they don't ask for you SS# for kicks. Then what made it doubly worse is that these bankers would then put these mortgage debts on the market nad they'd be sold to England or China as debt collatoral and then we have the world joining in a mess that started and was primarily from us but of course other banks around the world started participating in.


However BC was small. All in all he was small potatoes. However the Repubs did not enforce any laws that were around that would have stopped these fuckers and actually relaxed more of them.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. They did it because they had a buyer for the paper
and a ratings agency that was under orders from the buyers to make that paper look safe.

Everybody in the chain is to blame, but I put the responsibility squarely on the ratings agencies. They're the ones that are supposed to keep trust in the market. All they had to do was rate the paper at its true risk level.

What this really was is a breakdown in trust: Nobody knew - or even cared about the true value of these securities. They trust Moody's etc to handle that.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Agreed. This is just a mess all around. n/t
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
44. BINGO!!! Why aren't the rating agency chiefs in jail?!!?
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GoCubsGo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Did he have a choice whether or not to sign it?
Just wondering if the rethugs would have been able to override a veto had he done that...
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. It wasn't forced on him...
He was being advised by Alan Greenspan (that idiot) and Robert Rubin (BC's treasury Secretary) felt that it was hampering the market.

Anyone who thinks the repeal of Glass-Steagall was forced on an unwilling Bill Clinton need only read Rubin’s testimony.

A year later Sandy Weill set in motion the forces that would finally end Glass-Steagall. Weill proposed the most audacious financial merger in American history: he would merge one of the largest insurance companies (Travelers), one of the largest investment banks (Salomon Smith Barney), and the largest commercial banks (Citibank) in America. The problem was the merger was illegal in terms of Glass-Steagall.


http://thestrangedeathofliberalamerica.com/bill-clinton-glass-steagall-and-the-current-financial-and-mortgage-crisis-part-two-of-an-indepth-investigative-report.html

Some names of who voted for or against it. Biden and Edwards voted to repeal. While it was Pelosi, Kucinich who voted against it.
http://www.progressivehistorians.com/2008/05/bill-clinton-glass-steagall-and-current_30.html

Here is an article that summarises it best: http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/nov1999/bank-n01.shtml
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #4
23. Bill deep-sixed BCCI matters for GHWBush. American people needed to understand the banking crimes
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 09:42 AM by blm
and all the other illegal operations that were part of those matters, including S&L crimes, IranContra, Iraqgate, and CIA drugrunning, moneylaundering and armsdealing.

Read Bill's book....he mentions NOT ONE WORD about BCCI. The banking crimes that funded the growth of global terror networks and Bill ignored any mention of it because his loyalty to the secrecy and privilege of Poppy Bush, Jackson Stephens, Dubai and Saudi royals is more important to him than the right of American citizens' to accountability of an open government.

BCCI matters fully revealed would have made it impossible for a Bush2 presidency, a 9-11 event, this Iraq war, ongoing secretive, unregulated financial markets and today's crisis.
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riona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
5. Interesting article about the housing crisis
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. This seems co-opted from CNN's dissection of the people who contributed.
Their's was done back in September/October. As always Greenspan was ahead of the line. However in regards to BC it's bullshit. Half is correct the other half is not. They keep saying CRA's but that wasn't used for housing, it was used for small businesses. small businesses owned/created by minority people. Not really for housing. This housing thing is a separate issue. Of course the bankers could have used CRA as an excuse, but in the end it was the bankers, not BC who was at blame since CRA was around BEFORE they repealed Glass-Steagall, so I think that the Guardian form is a bit off. And their missing a few other people, Madoff has been considered a contributor because he was playing with massive amounts of money---billions to be exact; Stanford and a few others are now included in this as well. Ponzi schemes also allowed for manipulation of the market because there were no transparency measures put in place to guard the people.
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phaseolus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
6. Very minor. He missed a chance to regulate mortgage backed securities
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 07:34 AM by phaseolus
According to this show (transcript) no one in the administration or in congress wanted to regulate those after it was suggested...
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. It was not that minor. He repealed a real safety net
enacted in 1934 and repealing is not as minor as "missing a chance"
In his defense he probably would have caught the problem earlier and acted to prevent this.

The article above about who is to blame does name Clinton and bush but says this about bush and it drives me crazy
Bush administration certainly did little to put the brakes on the vast amount of mortgage cash being lent to "Ninja" (No income, no job applicants) borrowers who could not afford them.

Little to stop it? He encouraged it...he did something so bad and so public that I can't believe it isn't brought up all the time when they talk about the mortgage crisis...although the last person who brought it up was arrested a few weeks later. Probably not related of course...although Spitzer's arrest was really strange.
Predatory Lenders' Partner in Crime
How the Bush Administration Stopped the States From Stepping In to Help Consumers>
By Eliot Spitzer
Thursday, February 14, 2008; Page A25


The gist of the article is about how the bush administration used obscure regulations and made new rules from an obscure agency to STOP states from protecting citizens from predatory lending. The laws state passed, the lawsuits they filed against predatory lenders became null and void. That was 2003...how many bad loans were made in the meantime that could have been stopped?
And this was all 50 states that fought this and were over-ridden

For 140 years, the OCC examined the books of national banks to make sure they were balanced, an important but uncontroversial function. But a few years ago, for the first time in its history, the OCC was used as a tool against consumers.

In 2003, during the height of the predatory lending crisis, the OCC invoked a clause from the 1863 National Bank Act to issue formal opinions preempting all state predatory lending laws, thereby rendering them inoperative. The OCC also promulgated new rules that prevented states from enforcing any of their own consumer protection laws against national banks. The federal government's actions were so egregious and so unprecedented that all 50 state attorneys general, and all 50 state banking superintendents, actively fought the new rules.

But the unanimous opposition of the 50 states did not deter, or even slow, the Bush administration in its goal of protecting the banks. In fact, when my office opened an investigation of possible discrimination in mortgage lending by a number of banks, the OCC filed a federal lawsuit to stop the investigation.


That is certainly NOT just doing "little to put the brakes on the vast amount of mortgage cash being lent to "Ninja""
That is making sure bad loans were not prevented, that the public was not protected from being duped...

This wasn't an accident. Now if it was just bad mortgages happening we'd be OK...the crisis is on all the crazy derivatives...the trillions in credit swaps...the toxins we spread around the world

What's crazier is those credit default swaps are still being traded...on financial insitutions failing, on countries going bankrupt. Who is manipulating what?

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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #12
45. YES!!! 50 States AG's stood up to this 50 STATES!!! That was a message they ignored then arrested...
...Spitzer
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Arkplayer Donating Member (9 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
9. Almost None
The link to the Miami Herald for this article is dead, so I am posting the entire article.


Data prove untrue charges that push for affordable housing caused crisis
By DAVID GOLDSTEIN AND KEVIN G. HALL
McClatchy Newspapers


WASHINGTON -- As the economy worsens and Election Day approaches, a conservative campaign that blames the global financial crisis on a government push to make housing more affordable to lower-class Americans has taken off on talk radio and e-mail.

Commentators say that's what triggered the stock market meltdown and the freeze on credit. They've specifically targeted the mortgage finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which the federal government seized on Sept. 6, contending that lending to poor and minority Americans caused Fannie's and Freddie's financial problems.

Federal housing data reveal that the charges aren't true, and that the private sector, not the government or government-backed companies, was behind the soaring subprime lending at the core of the crisis.

Subprime lending offered high-cost loans to the weakest borrowers during the housing boom that lasted from 2001 to 2007. Subprime lending was at its height from 2004 to 2006.

Federal Reserve Board data show that:

-More than 84 percent of the subprime mortgages in 2006 were issued by private lending institutions.

-Private firms made nearly 83 percent of the subprime loans to low- and moderate-income borrowers that year.

-Only one of the top 25 subprime lenders in 2006 was directly subject to the housing law that's being lambasted by conservative critics.

The "turmoil in financial markets clearly was triggered by a dramatic weakening of underwriting standards for U.S. subprime mortgages, beginning in late 2004 and extending into 2007," the President's Working Group on Financial Markets reported Friday.

Conservative critics claim that the Clinton administration pushed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to make home ownership more available to riskier borrowers with little concern for their ability to pay the mortgages.

"I don't remember a clarion call that said Fannie and Freddie are a disaster. Loaning to minorities and risky folks is a disaster," said Neil Cavuto of Fox News.

Fannie, the Federal National Mortgage Association, and Freddie, the Federal Home Loan Mortgage Corp., don't lend money, to minorities or anyone else, however. They purchase loans from the private lenders who actually underwrite the loans.

It's a process called securitization, and by passing on the loans, banks have more capital on hand so they can lend even more.

This much is true. In an effort to promote affordable home ownership for minorities and rural whites, the Department of Housing and Urban Development set targets for Fannie and Freddie in 1992 to purchase low-income loans for sale into the secondary market that eventually reached this number: 52 percent of loans given to low-to moderate-income families.

To be sure, encouraging lower-income Americans to become homeowners gave unsophisticated borrowers and unscrupulous lenders and mortgage brokers more chances to turn dreams of homeownership in nightmares.

But these loans, and those to low- and moderate-income families represent a small portion of overall lending. And at the height of the housing boom in 2005 and 2006, Republicans and their party's standard bearer, President Bush, didn't criticize any sort of lending, frequently boasting that they were presiding over the highest-ever rates of U.S. homeownership.

Between 2004 and 2006, when subprime lending was exploding, Fannie and Freddie went from holding a high of 48 percent of the subprime loans that were sold into the secondary market to holding about 24 percent, according to data from Inside Mortgage Finance, a specialty publication. One reason is that Fannie and Freddie were subject to tougher standards than many of the unregulated players in the private sector who weakened lending standards, most of whom have gone bankrupt or are now in deep trouble.

During those same explosive three years, private investment banks - not Fannie and Freddie - dominated the mortgage loans that were packaged and sold into the secondary mortgage market. In 2005 and 2006, the private sector securitized almost two thirds of all U.S. mortgages, supplanting Fannie and Freddie, according to a number of specialty publications that track this data.

In 1999, the year many critics charge that the Clinton administration pressured Fannie and Freddie, the private sector sold into the secondary market just 18 percent of all mortgages.

Fueled by low interest rates and cheap credit, home prices between 2001 and 2007 galloped beyond anything ever seen, and that fueled demand for mortgage-backed securities, the technical term for mortgages that are sold to a company, usually an investment bank, which then pools and sells them into the secondary mortgage market.

About 70 percent of all U.S. mortgages are in this secondary mortgage market, according to the Federal Reserve.

Conservative critics also blame the subprime lending mess on the Community Reinvestment Act, a 31-year-old law aimed at freeing credit for underserved neighborhoods.

Congress created the CRA in 1977 to reverse years of redlining and other restrictive banking practices that locked the poor, and especially minorities, out of homeownership and the tax breaks and wealth creation it affords. The CRA requires federally regulated and insured financial institutions to show that they're lending and investing in their communities.

Conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer wrote recently that while the goal of the CRA was admirable, "it led to tremendous pressure on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - who in turn pressured banks and other lenders - to extend mortgages to people who were borrowing over their heads. That's called subprime lending. It lies at the root of our current calamity."

Fannie and Freddie, however, didn't pressure lenders to sell them more loans; they struggled to keep pace with their private sector competitors. In fact, their regulator, the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight, imposed new restrictions in 2006 that led to Fannie and Freddie losing even more market share in the booming subprime market.

What's more, only commercial banks and thrifts must follow CRA rules. The investment banks don't, nor did the now-bankrupt non-bank lenders such as New Century Financial Corp. and Ameriquest that underwrote most of the subprime loans.

These private non-bank lenders enjoyed a regulatory gap, allowing them to be regulated by 50 different state banking supervisors instead of the federal government. And mortgage brokers, who also weren't subject to federal regulation or the CRA, originated most of the subprime loans.

In a speech last March, Janet Yellen, the president of the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco, debunked the notion that the push for affordable housing created today's problems.

"Most of the loans made by depository institutions examined under the CRA have not been higher-priced loans," she said. "The CRA has increased the volume of responsible lending to low- and moderate-income households."

In a book on the sub-prime lending collapse published in June 2007, the late Federal Reserve Governor Ed Gramlich wrote that only one-third of all CRA loans had interest rates high enough to be considered sub-prime and that to the pleasant surprise of commercial banks there were low default rates. Banks that participated in CRA lending had found, he wrote, "that this new lending is good business."
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
47. The conclusion doesn't follow from the evidence.
A frequent failing when you have a goal and some data: You dump your data and write "QED" even if it's not quite right.

Why do I say this? Because there's a long chain of events that got up to 2006. Your article focuses on the most proximal cause and the current state instead of looking at the chain of events that led up to it.

Once I was told of a meeting that the dept. chair had with the provost. One bringing charges against another. The provost read the literature guy's complaint which stated, quite accurately, that during a dept. meeting the linguistics professor in the dept. lunged across the conference table and punched him, the literature professor, in the nose. The provost wanted to know if it was true, yes or no. "Yes" was the answer, case closed.

But the dept. chair didn't shut up after saying "yes": "Yes, that is what happened. Did the literature professor happen to say what happened before that?" Of course not. After all, only the proximal cause is relevant, right? Well, no, the literature professor had an agenda. The problem was that the literature prof. and the linguist had been at odds for years. A few minutes before the punch that was the subject of the complaint, the literature professor insulted the linguist, who retorted in kind, only to have the literature professor lean across the table and bash him with something--an umbrella, perhaps? *Then* the linguist lunged across the table and punched him in the nose. Chain of events, "root cause", yada-yada. Of course, the provost gave them an option: They'd both be suspended, or neither would be suspended. Case dropped. Point: It's always good to find both the proximate and the distal or "root" causes, not just look for those that absolve our tribe and highlight the other tribe's culpability.

So let's not focus on the most proximate cause and leave it at that. There's lots of blame to go around, and not all of it left a trail in official regulations and legislation. Reagan gets a small portion of it (simply because so many others could have prevented this post-Reagan, and many of Reagan's regulations/laws were driven by technological changes). Clinton gets a hefty share of the blame and really set the ball rolling, * fed the problem and then failed to stop it. Clinton administration folk who worked post-Clinton for the Macs lobbied hard to protect the system they'd help set up, and congressfolk, mostly but not entirely repub (as is fitting, since they were in charge of Congress), took a fair amount of money from the Macs. The bankers who learned that doing what they didn't initially want to do could be turned to their advantage and Wall Street financial gurus who lost track of how to valuate their julienned-mortgage securities certainly can't duck the blame, and neither can the politicians who abetted the bankers and financiers. And let's not ignore investors who were stupid in trying to find investment vehicles after the Clinton stock bubble burst and home-buyers who let their greed and ignorance justify their foolishness. When you have several trillion dollars in losses, there's lots of blame to go around. A theory should be only as simple as possible, and never simpler than possible--the flip-side of Occam's razor, so to speak.
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
11. Tell us what they think on FR.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. lol
My thought, too!
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #11
48. Whenever they start "thinking"......nt
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
14. We wouldn't be in this 2nd Republicon Great Depression if not for the Republicon bush.
It's that simple and straight forward. Without the Republicon bush NONE OF THIS FINANCIAL CRISIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED. If he had not been our pResident for 8 horrible years we would Not have had:

Billions of tax dollars disappearing into Iraq and Iraq contractor's pockets.
No bid contracts with billion dollar payouts.
Tax cuts for the most profitable corporations in history.
Declining tax revenue.
An inept SEC
An inept FDA
An inept Justice department
Poison in our toys and dog food with no penalties to the criminals.
Total destruction of the American economy.

And I could go on. No matter how much freepers want to blame the Democratic party, it does not wipe out the truth of the bush destruction.

It's the Republicon bush's fault.

It's the Republicon bush's fault.

Remember that truth.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
15. Subprime was merely the first symptom of a much larger disaster in housing.
It's much like how you get a sore throat at the onset of a cold.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
18. So what is it about the Clenis that you find so intimidating?
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
37. I often agree with you, but this is a valid question and it is better that we know
as much of what happened as possible. Bill Clinton and his economic advisers do share some of the blame. Two bills they pushed seriously cut the safety net that had been in place since the 1930s. Bush might have pushed to make these changes in 2000 or afterward had Clinton not done so - but the Democrats may well have fought him.

It is important to but his actions in perspective - because just denying them will not work if arguing with Republicans who know what the bills were.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. My spidey sense is telling me that isn't why the poster was asking the question though.
I could be wrong...but I don't think I am.

If this were you asking the question my response would not have been the same.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. You were 100% correct and he is now gone
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 02:27 PM by karynnj
And thank you for saying that you would not have responded the same way. You would also be right if you said that I (or anyone else here who is not a troll) would have written the op differently - probably asking help in responding to Republican claims that blame the financial crisis on Democrats. We actually had a long thread on DU JK where we were putting information - no matter who it favored - just so we could intelligently answer questions - and it simply asked for research.

The question though was a good one to answer - as the Republicans have spun their own story and it is blatantly untrue. While the truth does show Clinton had some responsibility - the Republicans want to assign ALL the responsibility to Clinton and other Democrats.

:hi:
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. It's been a long domino effect.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
19. this clash began with Fdr, perpetuated by carter, enforced by clinton
and clearly obama's fault.

:eyes:
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
21. It's been over 2 hours - when are you going to participate in the discussion you started
??
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FarLeftRage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I am beginning to sense a tr*ll of a s*ckp*ppet...
...here and I may not be alone...
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. Tick tock.
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rvablue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. You're not! I've been thinking the same thing! n/t
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
24. The sub-prime crisis was probably more talking point than reality
Prime defaults are actually higher than sub-prime defaults right now.

I think the sub-prime crisis was a talking point to try to find poor scape-goats and pretend that the housing bubble was isolated within a class of borrowers.

(It wasn't.)

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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. And only about 14% of current subprime mortgages were covered by the CRA
Most of them were done by private companies like Countrywide, who were not bound by the CRA.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
25. If you hold him solely responsible for everything that happened while he was President, quite a bit
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 10:56 AM by karynnj
That however ignores that he took the advice of people like Greenspan, Gramm, Rubin and most of his economic advisers to undo what they called archaic regulations that weren't needed in modern times. This was VERY wrong - they were the root without which this could not have happened. Bill Clinton did actively advocate for both the repeal of Glass-Segal and the Commodity Futures Modernization amendment. These two actions removed a LOT of regulation on the banks and the financial markets respectively - including having NO regulation of swaps and derivatives. Had Clinton, instead of supporting these, said he would veto a budget if these amendments were there - they likely would have been removed.

But, this was made worse under Bush because Cox allowed a change that allowed leverage to go from the 1 to 12 it was to ratios like 1 to 44.

These were the actions that converted what would have been the bursting of the housing bubble with foreclosures causing enormous pain to the full blown financial crisis where many big banks are probably bankrupt and dysfunctional drying up loans to small businesses etc. So, yes - he bears responsibility as does his economic team. They were part of the team that steamrolled Congress to pass these measures. (In both cases, nearly all Senate Democrats voted against the budget to begin with - but then they mostly voted for conference report that included Glass-Segal and allowed the budget containing the CFM to pass on a voice vote. They obviously did not want to filibuster a must pass budget the President wanted. )

The Republicans have claimed that it was the Democrats who pushed the banks to give risky mortgages - nothing could be further from the truth. Though this does not relate to Clinton, but to Democrats, Senate Democrats tried to outlaw the use of things like balloon loans and other risky loans. A bill was introduced in 2000 by Sarbanes, Kerry, Dodd, Durbin and Schumer and was buried by the Republicans in the Banking Committee. It was reintroduced in 2002 and in 2003 - so they tried for three Congresses in a row. Here is a link to the 2000 bill - http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s106-2415 The second two times the bill had 14 and then 15 sponsors - all Democrats. Durbin tried to get the same provisions in an amendment to the bankrutcy bill in 2005 and on at least one other bill. This means there were at lest 5 serious attempts by Democrats and only Democrats to regulate risky loans during the 2000s.

In addition, the 2004 Democratic platform included a plank to deal with credit card and mortgage abuses including outlawing balloon mortgages in most cases. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=980DEFDF113EF934A1575BC0A9629C8B63&&scp=5&sq=business%20subprime%20Kerry&st=cse Thanks to DU - here is more information on that - http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x678560

Now the Republicans speak of their desire to regulate Freddie and Fannie - ignoring that in addition to the FMs there were private companies aggregating mortgagaes. The House passed a bipartisan bill whose chief sponsor was a Republican which the Senate Democrats accepted. The Senate Republicans backed a bill that would have decreased the size of Freddie and Fannie in addition to regulating, which also had an Santorum amendment that cut affordable housing funds. The Republicans buried the bipartisan bill in committee and never took their bill to the floor of the Senate as FM lobbyists persuaded a group of Republicans not to support it. The fact though is that the FMs accounted for 17% of the foreclosures, their private counterparts for 83%. The Republican bill - described as the stronger bill would actually have increased the more troubled private sector.

In addition, when foreclosures mounted, Senator Kerry was the only person in a meeting of the leadership with Bush who argued for putting money to deal with salvaging mortgages in the 2008 stimulus package - when others said it was a good idea, he and Gordon Smith wrote a provision to do so and it was accepted into the Senate version of the stimulus package with 20 out of 21 votes in the Finance committee - but the Senate version was filibustered and that provision did not end up in the passed bill. Both HRC and Obama called for similar things in their presidential runs.

Here is a summary using a fire as an analogy. Clinton did open fire doors that wise people had said needed to exist (FDR et al) that let the fire spread, but the Bush administration took no actions to close them before the fire started and with the change in leverage they provided inflammatory material. In addition, the spark that set everything off - the foreclosure crisis - might have been kept away had either the predatory loan legislation passed or if action were taken when the fire was smaller (ie when the Democrats called for dealing with the foreclosure crisis.)
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. Bookmarking this. Very succinct. eom
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jonestonesusa Donating Member (630 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Agreed - outstanding post.
I'm bookmarking this concise and helpful summary too. Thanks!
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ItNerd4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. Interesting, didn't know this.
I knew Clinton had opened the door, but I didn't know he only opened it partially.
It was the republican assualt on the program that opened the door wide and really screwed the pooch.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
27. I was going to lock this, as the poster is no longer among the living...
but this one I think I'll leave open for abit so we can all enjoy a little "corpsekicking"...:D

Enjoy!
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. thanks for being so considerate.
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Hassin Bin Sober Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. And it has some good information.
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 01:41 PM by Hassin Bin Sober
I've spent ten years in the mortgage business and it drives me up a frickin wall when I hear the "Barney Frank did it" bullshit.

Post #9 has some excellent points.

It wasn't Fannie mae and Barney Frank calling on my office offering ridiculous loan flyers such as this:

580 Fico
100% Financing
Stated Income
Investment property

It was companies like BNC Mortgage(Lehman Bros.) and Option One (HR Block) and Aurora Loan Services ALT-A(Lehman Bros.) that were pushing this bullshit.

200 lenders bit the dust before Fannie/Freddie went belly up.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. There is some good info in here...
but I have to admit, I kind of like it when members get a chance to toss a few on the fire so to speak....:evilgrin:
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
50. Thank you for this
Edited on Mon Mar-02-09 04:25 PM by karynnj
As it supports what #9 said with some information from the field.
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Hassin Bin Sober Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. I think the day that bank rep. walked in with that flyer was the last day of the bubble.
I wish I could remember the date.

Thats two bubbles I witnessed up close and personal. March 15th 2000 - the last day of the NASDAQ bubble when a chip stock I owned was up 40 bucks at the open (my boyfriend BEGGED me to sell :( )............and the day that rep handed me that goofy flyer. I remember thinking to my self "how the f*ck do they justify THIS loan?"

It may not have been the last day but it was close.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
40. If you're Republican, then it was totally Bill's fault.
And any problems after Bill Clinton are totally Obama's fault. Got it? And they are scary commie socialists, too. They wanna control your TV and snacks and give your money to others and kill your lord and savior. Got that?


If not, please report to the Newt Gingrich Re-education Camp for special complimentary training ASAP.
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Yavin4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-02-09 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
52. Anything That Bill Clinton Did or Didn't Do Is Moot
Bush had 8 years as president and congress that gave him whatever he wanted except for SS reform. Everything else:

Two wars
Homeland Security
Three tax cuts
Telcom immunity
Every spending bill

Everything.
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