This is who you all want us to have a dialogue with

[dsc]

They are now after suicide prevention programs. Lest one think they are worried about government waste it isn't that they don't work. No, it is that they have the audacity to make gay people, and some non gay people, think that being gay isn't evil. I know, you think I am making this up, so here are some links.

http://www.pamspaulding.com/weblog/2006/07/1-800-suicid ...

With teenage suicide being the 3rd leading cause of death between 18 to 24 year olds - our government should not be duplicating prevention efforts but helping fund the many local organizations and non-profits with proven track records on prevention. In addition our government should not be in the business having access to this private and sensitive information!

Despite the fact that almost 2 million callers have reached help and hope over the last 8 years, and a government funded evaluation stating the benefits of 1-800-SUICIDE, the Substance Abuse & Mental Health Service Administration (SAMHSA), a division of Health & Human Services, has decided to create their own government run system where they would have direct access to confidential data on individuals in crisis.
You might recall SAMHSA, which came under fire from the fundies back in February of last year. Agency officials were forced by the Bush admin (after the WH received hopping mad calls from Family Research Council's Tony Perkins) to remove all LGBT references from a federally funded suicide prevention conference in California and to kill gay-positive content from the SAMHSA site.

The Bushies also suggested a session on "faith-based" suicide prevention, and threatened the conference's funding. The wingnut admin functionaries backed down after an outcry for sanity from response from mental health professionals.

SAMHSA also took a big hit when its web site featured a section called "Celebrating the Pride and Diversity Among and Within the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Populations" which flew in the face of the flat-earth science often promoted in government under Bush that seems to either ignore or condemn homosexuality. The SAMHSA link above is to The Memory Hole, btw. My original post on this was called How long before a Bush drone puts a stop to this?

The answer was 12 days. That's how long it took for a Bush drone to scrub a government web site of gay-positive content.

end of quote

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph ...

ACCORDING TO BRIAN, "In Massachusetts, anything labeled 'youth suicide prevention' is always a homosexual program in disguise. No one else is ever interested in youth suicide issues because it is not really a problem in the schools. In fact, there is no youth suicide 'epidemic' in Massachusetts."

Please do the right thing for parents and children - DO NOT CAVE-IN TO THE MURDEROUS RIGHT-WING BIGOTED AGENDA! THEY ARE CONSERVATIVES WITHOUT A CONSCIENCE!

end of quote

Brian is the head of the anti gay alliance of Massachusetts.

Let me be blunt this is pure evil. It is nothing less than the idea that Matthew Sheppard is the ultimate ex gay. These aren't, sadly, the Fred Phelps of the word. These are the supposedly reasonable anti gay zealots. We can't let these people win. If they are willing to sacrifice straight teenagers just so someone, somewhere who is gay won't get a positive feeling about him or herself. This is the type of Christian we are up against. Why should we believe for a minute they will entertain the notion of compromise? At best, they don't care if we live or die. At worst, they wish us dead. Compromise isn't an option.

There is no dialogue to have with people like this. They will lie, cheat, and steal to get their way. They are evil personified.

[Kittycat]

1. Because they still have a right to vote.

Piss everyone off, and you're on your own.

[Bjorn Against]

5. Why would we try to win the votes of people who hate?

Pursuing the pro-gay suicide vote is not a strategy that we should take.

[Bonobo]

9. Because people are not static, unchanging rocks.

Actually even rocks are not unchanging rocks. Everything is in a state of change. How can you not see the truth of that?

[Bjorn Against]

13. If we want to change these people then we need to make it clear they are wrong.

You don't tell them they are wrong by joining up with them.

[Bonobo]

16. You don't chnage their minds by TELLING them anything.

Have you ever changed anyone's mind by getting in their face and screaming that they are wrong?

[Bjorn Against]

19. I never said get in their face and scream, but we do need to speak the truth and speak it loudly.

[Bonobo]

20. Actually it would be more effective to "demonstrate" it through action.

Telling people directly that thay are wrong only makes them say "No I'm not. You are!"

As Vonnegut said, it's like saying "I love you". What can the other person possibly reply except for "I love you too."?

[Bjorn Against]

21. I do demonstrate it through action...

But that doesn't mean that when someone says something that is completely wrong that I am not going to say something.

[NYC_SKP]

12. We need to intercept those with whom THEY have connected.

And we don't do it by ignoring, shouting, screaming, etc., no matter how right we are or how wrong they are, those with whom they have successfully connected will only cling more tightly to THEM!

[Bjorn Against]

14. We need to stand up for what is right, and we need to make it clear just how wrong the bigots are.

[NYC_SKP]

15. We do. We need to do it with clarity and calm and strength of purpose.

Did nobody pay attention to the civil rights movement and MLK?

We have to be angry, but we don't have to lose the appearance of confidence of our convictions.

It's basic human behavior, those on the fence who observe both sides will more likely be moved by the side that can make the best intelligent cogent argument, from a position of logic and reason and humanity, and in a dignified manner.

[Bonobo]

17. Or Ghandi for that matter.

People here should watch the movie or something. It says a lot about the principals of non-violence as a way, the only way, of overcoming hatred.

[Sebastian Doyle]

29. And look where that got Ghandi

Or MLK. Or Jesus Christ. Or John Lennon.

I believe in "peace and love" as much as those guys do, but they all got killed for it.

You can only turn the other cheek to the bigot so many times before they drag out the hammer & nails. Or whatever weapons they have.

[Bonobo]

31. Unless you are ready to kill, EVERYTHING is up for discussion. nt

[Bjorn Against]

18. I agree with that and I never said otherwise.

I will say however that MLK never invited a bigot to speak at any of his rallies.

[NYC_SKP]

22. I didn't think you had said otherwise.

I wondered as I typed if you'd think I was lecturing or arguing, but I wasn't taking issue with your words at all.

Not rallies, but I believe anyone more familiar with his biography would be able to cite many meetings MLK had with the opposition.

[Bjorn Against]

23. I have no problem with meetings.

Meetings are great, but we should never give any ground to those who want to do harm. There is a big difference between meeting with people and honoring them or compromising with them.

[boppers]

2. There *is* dialog to be had.

It sometimes involves foot-tapping.

With a wide stance.

:evilgrin:

Being less snarky, the foot soldiers of movements often aren't the "true believers", but the "go-alongs". While turning a "true believer" is hard, having dialog with with the "go-alongs" is what changes things.

Militancy is great for militias, but not so good for encouraging armies to disband.

[Kittycat]

4. " Militancy is great for militias, but not so good for encouraging armies to disband."

Excellent response.

[NYC_SKP]

26. That's a keeper.

Right on! :fistbump:

[ZombieHorde]

3. Broken links. nt

[dsc]

6. sorry

the thread is an old thread I reposted and I likely can't get the links to work.

[ZombieHorde]

7. I will never...ever...forgive you for this trespass.

Ha I lied! I totally forgive you.

[NYC_SKP]

8. You posted this already...in August of 2006. You think nothing has changed?

I tried to find the correct link, no luck.

I did find when you first posted this in August of 2006: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=221&topic_id=39155

It's a great piece, but I wonder if you really think that nothing is going to change between 2006 with Bush and a Republican majority and in 2009 under Obama.

I also wonder how much of the story is reflective of the present, like if "Brian" is still around.

Anyway, yeah, we have to be open to having a dialogue with all--because they maintain a dialogue with the very citizens we need to reach and if we want to sway any of them we have to be willing to show that we are confident enough in the rightness of our position that we are not afraid to engage.

:patriot:

Edited subject line upon further research. See pinto's reply.

[dsc]

32. several things

Brian is still around, he is the leader of the Massachusetts anti marriage group. I didn't post this to suggest they won the website battle permanently but to show what they would do given the chance.

[Lucky 13]

10. No one is saying they aren't wrong.

But they are Americans and have an equal vote to ours. Like it or not.

Obama is everyone's President. Not just yours. Or mine. Or the left. Or the center. But also everyone with an R behind their name, everyone who watches Fox news, everyone who goes to church.

There IS a dialogue to be had. Most likely the dialogue we have with them won't be about gays or choice... there is little, if any, common ground to be had there. But we do have SOME commonalities with them: We are all Americans. We all have to abide by the same laws. We all face the same economic hardship on the horizon. We all must find solutions to our problems together.

The point is this: We must work to find some common ground with every American, because there IS common ground to be had... no matter how strongly we disagree on almost every other issue.

[pinto]

11. Cooler heads at SAMSHA may have prevailed. This remains on their website -

SAMSHA Programs and Campaigns

http://www.samhsa.gov/Campaigns_programs/campaigns_alpha.aspx

Suicide Risk and Prevention for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Youth

Suicide Prevention Resource Center Education Development Center, Inc.
55 Chapel Street Newton MA 02458 877-GET-SPRC (438-7772)

http://www.sprc.org

Executive Summary

This paper highlights the higher risk of suicidal behavior among lesbian, gay, and bisexual (LGB) youth. This higher risk may well extend to transgender (T) youth. Additionally, the paper provides recommendations to reduce this risk by addressing stigma and prejudice at the institutional and individual level; by forming partnerships across youth-serving, suicide prevention, and LGBT youth agencies; by building on recent advances in research; and by responding to the issues of LGBT youth. To write the paper, the authors reviewed relevant up-to-date literature and researched current services for LGBT youth. Youth, for the purposes of this paper, is defined as between ages 15 and 24. Drafts of the paper were reviewed by LGBT youth and experts with relevant interests.

<snip>

The authors assert the following recommendations to strengthen or increase protective factors and to reduce risk factors among LGBT youth. Agencies that serve youth – schools, health practices, suicide prevention programs, and youth services – as well as funders, can help to reduce suicidal behavior among these youth. The authors recommend that these agencies and individuals:

• Implement training for all staff members to effectively serve LGBT

• Implement training for all staff members to effectively serve LGBT youth by including recognition and response to warning signs for suicide and the risk and protective factors for suicidal behavior in LGBT youth

• Include information about higher rates of suicidal behavior in LGBT youth in health promotion materials

• Assess and ensure that youth services and providers are inclusive, responsive to, and affirming of the needs of LGBT youth, and refer youth to these services and providers

• Develop peer-based support programs

• Include the topic of coping with stress and discrimination and integrate specific activities for LGBT youth in life skills training and programs to prevent risk behaviors

• Support staff advocacy for LGBT youth

• Incorporate program activities to support youth and their family members throughout the
development of sexual orientation and gender identity, including awareness, identity, and disclosure. These programs must address young children and adolescents.

• Promote organizations that support LGBT youth, such as Gay-Straight Alliances and Parents, Families, and Friends of Lesbians & Gays (PFLAG)

• Institute protocols and policies for appropriate response if a client or student is identified as at risk of self-harm, has made a suicide attempt, or has died by suicide

• Make accurate information about LGBT issues and resources easily available

• Use an LGBT cultural competence model that enables individuals and agencies to work effectively with LGBT youth cultures

• Include LGBT youth in program development and evaluation

• Institute, enforce, and keep up to date non-discrimination and non-harassment policies for all youth

• Implement confidentiality policies that are clear, comprehensive, and explicit

• Assume that clients or students could be any sexual orientation or gender identity and respond accordingly

• Address explicitly the needs of LGBT youth in school-based programs and policies to prevent violence and bullying

<snip>

Full paper (pdf file) at -

http://www.sprc.org/library/SPRC_LGBT_Youth.pdf

[Occam Bandage]

24. People are not static. You cannot change minds without discussion. nt

[Bonobo]

27. I said that same thing about 10 times tonight.

Dukkha, the nature of suffering and all that.

[JackBeck]

25. How do you feel about Mel White and SoulForce?

But please, continue to type your outrage while we put our feet on the ground doing the actual work.

[Maven]

28. Jack, I don't think it's fair to imply that those who participate here

don't participate in real life. DSC has posted much on his own efforts within a less-than-accepting atmosphere to advance equality as an activist and a professional.

Also, whether you mean to or not, invoking the O-word ("outrage") against other GLBTs plays into an insidious strategy to mock and delegitimize GLBT concerns both here and in the real world.

You know I have great respect for you but I had to say that in DSC's defense.

[debbierlus]

30. kick