So what's the deal with the binary thought processes here?

[ruggerson]

It is not only possible, but highly likely, that many people are both glad Barack Obama is president-elect AND find some of his choices, so far, puzzling or offensive or tone deaf.

That does not make them "haters."

It makes them critical thinkers.

Obama himself objects to binary thinking: he rails against red vs blue, black vs white, etc.

On some issues, he has repeatedly INVITED criticism and said that he expects to have to be pushed at times to do the right thing by forces outside the government.

It might behoove some here to take a clue from the man they profess to admire so fiercely.

[Tansy_Gold]

1. You have to remember there are only 10 kinds of people in the world

Those who understand binary, and those who don't.



Tansy Gold

[WhiteTara]

4. a wonderful zen koan

As Pema Chodron would say "that stopped my mind" There is no response. It is all true and not.

[ananda]

69. Either all of it is true, or none of it is.

John Steinbeck

:-)

[BlooInBloo]

8. bah - beat me to it.

[Deja Q]

12. Ditto.

[Forkboy]

2. It's not just here, it's everywhere.

It's getting scary.

[lostnotforgotten]

3. Situational Ethics Do Not Always Apply To Binary Issues

eom

[Barack_America]

5. hater.

:P

And no, I don't understand what the deal is. But frightening to see politics and policy being treated like a sporting event. Not so sure I want to sign up for "Team Obama".

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

6. Some people still can't get over the binaries.

[ruggerson]

11. lol, how true

sad and true.

[SpookyCat]

46. GOL....

It's like LOL, except I Groaned! :-P

[QC]

7. OMG!1!1! YUO MUSTT BE ONE OF THEM PUMAS!1!1!!

:sarcasm:

[Beacool]

61. I get that all the time..............

:7

[BlooInBloo]

9. It's really not believable when they never supported him in the first place.

EDIT: It's not binary thinking. It that some simply don't believe you.

[ruggerson]

10. all you do is relive the primaries over and over and over

it's a fascinating thing to watch.

[BlooInBloo]

14. What primaries? I'm talking about those of you calling for Obama's impeachment.

:rofl:

You guys should coordinate a little better.

[ruggerson]

17. "those of you"

where have I ever written anything remotely like that?

Not only do you relive the primaries every day, you are delusional.

[sniffa]

21. I just did a search

with you as author and the word impeachment over the past month.

I got one hit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8012216#8012483

[ruggerson]

24. thank you

:hug:

[Marrah_G]

56. Why the hell are you arguing with "ignored"

Seriously...why continue to give these mentally deranged people someone to fight with. Ignore them and leave them to their basement circle jerks over picture threads.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

70. Does this person I'm responding to have the majority of DU on ignore?

I know she has me on ignore because she's told me so. I've also seen her announce numerous times that she has particular people on ignore.

[sniffa]

78. I don't know if Ignored has me on ignore

:shrug:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

80. I'll go ask her......

......She does!

[sniffa]

81. Damn

:cry:

[bvar22]

31. Fighting imaginary battles?

In your imagination, do you see yourself winning heroic battles?


Can you post a link to any DUer calling for Obama's impeachment?

[LaydeeBug]

36. Of course not, but that won't stop him. He is delusional.

and it shows.

[Hekate]

53. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=8079253
If Obama doesn't understand the rule of law, then he, like bush, is unfit to be president

[kenfrequed]

60. Machine gunning strawmen much?

With ad absurdem ammunition.

No one that criticizes (for example) the appointment of Rahm Emmanuel is calling for the impeachment of Obama.

Many of us that were angry at his appointment WERE in favor of Impeachment for Bush whereas many people that like Rahm probably were the same people against impeachment.

[Vanje]

66. Links

Do you have some links to show "those of you calling for Obama's impeachment."

[ulysses]

13. so, it's impossible for someone to support and criticise Obama

at the same time? "0 or 1, dammit! Make your choice!"

[BlooInBloo]

15. Asked and answered.

EDIT: There's lots of options beyond the simple strawman two of the OP. Nobody denies that. What's at issue is the *believability* of those options, when prospectively applied to certain people.

[ulysses]

16. where?

Help me out. You know teachers can't do anything. :P

[BlooInBloo]

18. #9, and then in my edit to previous post...

I didn't realize I was speaking to an education major. My apologies.

[ulysses]

20. so the answer is "yes"?

Fair enough. Silly, but fair enough. And I was a philosophy major for my undergrad. :D

[BlooInBloo]

22. Ah - fascinating.

[Lyric]

28. Surely a philosophy major could recognize a classic case of

"Poisoning the Well," which is precisely what the above posted (with the "believability" crap) is attempting to do. He/she cannot refute the actual MESSAGE, so instead attacks the credibility of the messenger. How amateur.

That poster has an agenda to punish everyone who disagreed during the primaries, and it's rather laughably pathetic to watch it in action. Sad, sad, sad.

[Lyric]

29. Poisoning the Well Logical Fallacy

Description of Poisoning the Well

This sort of "reasoning" involves trying to discredit what a person might later claim by presenting unfavorable information (be it true or false) about the person. This "argument" has the following form:

Unfavorable information (be it true or false) about person A is presented.
Therefore any claims person A makes will be false.
This sort of "reasoning" is obviously fallacious. The person making such an attack is hoping that the unfavorable information will bias listeners against the person in question and hence that they will reject any claims he might make. However, merely presenting unfavorable information about a person (even if it is true) hardly counts as evidence against the claims he/she might make. This is especially clear when Poisoning the Well is looked at as a form of ad Homimem in which the attack is made prior to the person even making the claim or claims. The following example clearly shows that this sort of "reasoning" is quite poor.

Before Class:
Bill: "Boy, that professor is a real jerk. I think he is some sort of eurocentric fascist."
Jill: "Yeah."

During Class:
Prof. Jones: "...and so we see that there was never any 'Golden Age of Matriarchy' in 1895 in America."

After Class:
Bill: "See what I mean?"
Jill: "Yeah. There must have been a Golden Age of Matriarchy, since that jerk said there wasn't."

Examples of Poisoning the Well

"Don't listen to him, he's a scoundrel."
"Before turning the floor over to my opponent, I ask you to remember that those who oppose my plans do not have the best wishes of the university at heart."
You are told, prior to meeting him, that your friend's boyfriend is a decadent wastrel. When you meet him, everything you hear him say is tainted.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html

:hi:

[BlooInBloo]

38. You should work to re-shape jurisprudential rules of evidence with that genius thought.

Indeed, all of language - there's no need for the concept of *credibility* any longer!

:rofl:

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. Exhibit #1 n/t

[dansolo]

42. That is a complete straw man

You accused me of not supporting him in another thread. That is completely false. I've supported him, probably longer than you have. I lived in IL, and I supported him ever since his Senate primary run in 2004. I do support him, just not unconditionally. I felt the same way about Clinton during his tenure. Supporting him does not mean that I can never be critical of him.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

19. I will note that I don't give a rat's be-hind whether he has invited criticism

Since this isn't Cultural Revolution era China I'm not waiting for a permission slip to take an interest in the operation of my government.

What a lot of folks here don't seem to understand is that Obama is now THE MAN.

And only a fool trusts THE MAN.

You don't have to hate THE MAN, but THE MAN is the embodiment of a vast inter-connected web of laws, social mores, propaganda and power.

It's not about personalities, at least not for me. In a few days Obama will have the power to free countless thousands of non-violent drug-offenders. And he won't.

So he's THE MAN.

The fact that no candidate would end the drug war just reinforces that they're all THE MAN.

(Had Hillary won the THE MAN would be a woman, which would be confusing.)

_____________________

I understood the OP. Just that noting that the fact he has invited crticism suggests there's an option, like he could have said, "Hey, no criticism!" And since that's not a legitimate option in the USofA...

[ruggerson]

26. see what trouble I get into defending you?

(see upthread link) :)

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

30. Defending me is a fool's errand. Aimee Mann covered it pretty well...

To me this is the GDP song:

All you want to do is something good
So get ready to be ridiculed and misunderstood
'cause don't you know that you're a fucking freak in this world
In which everybody's willing to choose swine over pearls

And maybe everything is all for nothing
Still you'd better keep it to yourself
'cause God knows it's not safe with anybody else

You can take your own advice and try again
But a thousand compromises don't add up to a win
And they'd be happy if you'd only cover your tracks
But the trail of crumbs you've left won't help you find your way back

So maybe everything is all for nothing
Still you'd better keep it to yourself
'cause God knows it's not safe with anybody else
God knows it's not safe with anybody else

[Life Long Dem]

23. Yes, and the media spun this puzzlement into a hatred against Obama by the left

Spinning is lying and the media will lie on any and every issue they possibly can.

[leftstreet]

25. Obama's been tacking right, and it frightens his supporters

You can't whip up a 'Hope' and 'Change' frenzy among your supporters without scaring the crap out of them when you start leaning status quo.

The people who are defending Obama's actions are the same people who'd be cheering loudly had he chosen to move Left.

Fear often trumps reason.

[PurityOfEssence]

43. Ideologues are clashing with personality-cultists

Your post title is dead on. Whether fair or not, people had assumptions that he was farther left than he is, and this is sparking all sorts of emotions and reactions.

Hopefully a lesson will be learned here: that being all things to all people works for only a certain period of time.

What's amusing about your post is the also very correct observation that certain individuals would defend him REGARDLESS of whether he tacked left, right or sailed off the falls. Those are ones who are enrapt with the cult of personality, and I can only think of those famous drawings that look like unfiltered 3-d, the ones in blue and red.

Personality cultists have their ego so wrapped up with being correct, that all sorts of transgressions can be explained away, and the tougher ones must be crushed forthwith out of embarrassment. Meanwhile, the ideologues have a set policy belief that MUST hold sway, and when it's given short shrift, they go nuts.

Shortly, we'll see where he really stands on many of these issues, as well as which are priorities. He's bound to piss some people off, but it might be more of a dose of liberalism than is currently expected. We shall see VERY SHORTLY.

Much of these points of view are stubbornly ego-driven, but many of them are sincere beliefs.

What's amazing about this whole campaign is that people bought the concept that a Chicago politician with more than ten years of serious politickin' under his belt was going to bring some new, sunshiny kind of truth and light to our dark and dismal world, yet the methods were the same old ones: duck controversy, sit on fences, play to the emotions and promise the moon. For all its constant refrain of being "new" and "changey", this campaign has been decidedly by the numbers.

The expectations are simply too high all around, and that's not just a big collective mistake, we were led to believe them.

[Bluebear]

47. Exactly. "Pragmatism trumps principle", we heard here last night.

All I have are my principles, I am not giving them up.

[Beacool]

62. That's why it's foolish to believe the manure that politicians spew in campaigns.

It usually leads to disappointment.

:shrug:

[Howzit]

27. This binary thinking goes much further than the example you gave

Democrats are for the environment and believe global warming is a problem that must be dealt with by reducing CO2 emissions to 1990 levels - anyone who questions this is a Republican.

Democrats are for more restrictions on gun ownership - anyone who believes otherwise must be a Republican.


Thinking is hard work. It is easier to worship everything Democrat and hate anything Republican. Anything that seems critical of Democrats or questions what they stand for must have at its root Republican haters.

Or one can simply think for oneself and be critical and positive on a case by case basis, independent of perceived political affiliation. Just don't express any thoughts here that don't fit in with the commonly held views - what do you think this is; a discussion forum?

It seems Progressives allow any point of view as long as it exactly matches their own. By questioning Obama's choices you are forcing them to think why they support him. I think there is fear that "thinking too much" may yield a different answer than that which they adopted by means of group thinking. If one's opinion was independently formulated and is well based, having people question some peripheral aspect isn't going to undermine your confidence in you choice.

[Howzit]

40. For instance

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x196948

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=196970&mesg_id=196970

[Gman]

32. It's just the classic liberal mindset of not being able to handle the success

of electing someone who has the potential to do everything we have wanted not just the last 8 years, but maybe the last 40, or more. And Obama was the far-left's candidate. They think that they elected Obama and they can make him lose in 2012. They don't have a clue that this was a year that was so bad for Republicans that EVEN OBAMA could win. Make no mistake about that.

But some here can't stand the prosperity. The whining and complaining and bitching and moaning started LESS THAN 48 HOURS after the election was called for Obama. Even though I expected it, even I was surprised at how fast Obama's absolutely biggest supporters turned on him so fast. My head literally spun.

Maybe they think they don't deserve to win. Maybe they think they really can't and shouldn't win because they're not worthy or something. Who the hell knows? And it is those that were the most vicious of the Obamabots from the primaries that were so very fast to turn on Obama and stab him in the back before he even has taken the oath of office.

In my area we have had a running battle between those of us that were in organized labor and allied with the AA caucus, against the so-called progressives. No one whined and complained and bitched and moaned more than these progressives. But they could never ever deliver a damn thing when it got right down to it. We regularly kicked butt and out voted the so-called progressives every year without exception, including this year. No one takes them seriously in mainstream politics because they can't stand prosperity and have always got to bitch and moan and whine and complain about something. Sometimes we'd let them have someone elected to their beloved Resolutions Committee. They still whined and complained and bitched and moaned. It's highly annoying and every bit as counter productive.

[whatchamacallit]

33. Word

[CakeGrrl]

34. So what's the deal with this redundant post?

I'm just saying...there are obviously plenty of people who are happy with Obama assuming the presidency yet find some of his choices puzzling. For example, I'm concerned about the implications of Hillary Clinton as SoS given her hawkish ideology, as well the other Defense/Foreign Policy picks. What does that say for the Obama administration's positions on the international front? I assume that puts me in the "critical thinkers" column.

On the other hand, there are people who are on the bandwagon to criticize Obama because they're seemingly addicted to it. Your perception may vary, but that's the read I get from some comments and the posting patterns.

But what I have yet to see is anyone here saying Obama has done nothing wrong and anyone who dares to imply he has is a hater. If you have an example, great. I don't equate that with suggesting that we see what the Obama Administration actually DOES. I think that's reasonable since I believe only actions have the power to change. I have to apply that as well when I consider my concerns for the State Department.

Otherwise, is there a constructive point to a lecture-type post like this, other than to invite more opportunity for people to condescend and cluck and shake their heads that their own fellow DU community members can't deal with reality or are victims of groupthink?

[LaydeeBug]

35. THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU. It is BECAUSE I want to be successful that I speak my mind.

Thank you. I can't tell you how much. :hi: Thank you

[FrenchieCat]

37. My answer.....

is here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8079732

[cbc5g]

39. I agree i'm tired of the brown nosers ... that shit was so before the election

[Fearless]

44. I think the main source of exasperation

Lies within those people who are crying and whining about how they didn't want to vote for him in the first place and snidely remind us that he wasn't the best choice. Just a guess.

[ProSense]

45. Wow. So weren't the people labeled "Clinton haters" also "critical thinkers"?

A meme develops: "Obama haters" = "Critical thinkers"

LOL!

[Vanje]

67. Obama haters!??!

Please serve up a link to any DU-er who posts that he / she, "hates" Obama.

Being critical of the policies and choices of the most powerful leader on earth, is "hate" now?

[ProSense]

77. Did you read the OP or are you suggesting it is a strawman argument

From the OP:

That does not make them "haters."

Which is why this is in quotes in my response: "Obama haters"

Maybe you should direct your question to the poster who started this thread?

[progressoid]

48. Thinking shminking

Toe the line!

Don't rock the boat!

Follow the leader!

[QC]

49. Nothing harshes a good Kool-Aid buzz like critical thinking! n/t

[AntiFascist]

50. Then we may as well just have him impeached right now!!!1!1!1

Just kidding, K&R!

[Skittles]

51. be careful, ruggerson

you'll get the wrath of the worshipers

[ProSense]

52. Yeah, wouldn't want anyone pointing out the hypocrisy of this to

another group of "worshipers," huh?

[Norrin Radd]

54. kr

[Marrah_G]

55. I am one of those people

I am glad he won the election.

I do not think he is God, "the one" or a Jedi Master.

I like some of his choices and dislike others.

I continue to be sure he was the best choice between he and Mccain.

I hope his presidency is successful for all our sakes.

No, I will not become a cheerleader, nor will I sit down and shut up.

[sundog]

57. well said

frustration with obama = obama hater

there are no shades of gray in between for a chunk of people on this board

i have supported obama since the primaries & still like him

but if i & my fellow glbt americans speak out when something (rightfully) pisses us off, somehow we are smearing him & trying to take him down

same can be said for others who speak up about their frustrations with the obama team

but you say this & rigid thinkers will get defensive & deny it up & down

[treestar]

58. If the post sounds like critical thinking, fine

But when it sounds hysterical and emotional and is full of F bombs and complete abandonment of Obama, not so much.

The Warren pick for sure was way out of proportion - criticizing it as a minor point and moving on is one thing, posting that he has "betrayed" all gay persons is another (in the face of what his actual views and policies are, trashing them for just picking Warren to lead a meaningless invocation).

[QC]

59. Well, I guess when it's viewed from the lofty heights of heterosexual privilege,

the Warren fiasco probably does look pretty insignificant, but for many of us here, those for whom Warren constitutes a dangerous enemy, it's a pretty big deal, and telling us over and over that we are a bunch of whiners doesn't really change that.

[Vanje]

68. "Hysterical" "Emotional"

Thanks for characterising the concerns of GLBT people in an old stereotype.


If you absolutely have to use a stereotype, hysterical gays prefer use of the word, "Nuclear". :nuke:

[QC]

72. At least we weren't accused of "throwing hissyfits" or "getting our panties in a wad."

That represents progress of a sort, I guess.

[sniffa]

79. Or "starting a sissydoggle"

Yeah, I totally made that one up.

[Beacool]

63. To me he's simply a good politician who knew how to tap into people's angst.

The only difference I see in him from others who came before him and who were also quite slick is that he's a better speaker than most and that he's biracial.

:eyes:

[CakeGrrl]

82. This is an example that

supports my belief that some only join threads critical of Obama or of some of his supporters to continue bashing him.

So to paraphrase, Obama is just another "slick" politician who only distinguishes himself from the rest by being biracial and a better speaker.

I'd like to know how this constitutes "critical thinking" rather than being mere "criticism".

:eyes:

[Creideiki]

64. I'll happily help push people to do the right things

The people that confuse me the most are the ones that used to mock Bush for never being able to admit making any mistakes and now are supporting Obama regardless of what mistakes he makes. Warren was a mistake. Pushing back consideration of repealing DADT to 2010 is a mistake. Staying silent, especially on the amendment in Arkansas was a colossal mistake.

What I'm not seeing is Obama acknowledging that he's made any mistake.

Obama's a Christian and has probably heard what Jesus said about turning the other cheek. I just wish that he would have learned what that actually means.

[scheming daemons]

65. There's being critical about things that MATTER.... and then there's...

outrage over "so help me God" in the oath....

and

outrage over a commemorative inauguration invitation being a "scam"...

and

outrage over allowing Bush to fly home on Air Force one after the inauguration....




Being upset with cabinet positions, or nominations for highly-important non-cabinet positions... is one thing.

Getting pissed off because of crap like the above is pathetic.

[Vanje]

71. "outrage over allowing Bush to fly home on Air Force one after the inauguration...."

After Bush's "graciousness" was revealed in that Blair House business, If I were Obama, I'd make sure Bush and his family got a comfortable escort to the ticket counter at the DC airport.

[Creideiki]

73. After the last 8 years, I honestly don't care how Bush goes, so long as he goes

Private jet, Air Force One, the freaking Concorde (yes, I know it's decommissioned--can we re-commission it just for this one special occasion?)

I don't care if he has a freaking escort of an entire Battalion. Hell, throw him on an Aircraft carrier and send the entire carrier group just to get him out more quickly.

[TheKentuckian]

74. Binary thinking goes both ways

Obama did _________, clearly this will be Bush's 3rd term, Obama hates liberals, Obama through gays under the bus, etc.

Then there is the factor that support is fairly quiet from certain quarters while objections are usually loud as a siren. That's human nature but so is some of the push back when all that seems to be coming from one direction is negativity.

I think the OP is asking for some common sense balance to support and negativity but is only focused on either the 1's or the 0's but not both. Nor does is it accept that some of us are certainly more happy than not with the transition and rightfully back that up too.

[gkhouston]

75. One man's binary is another man's bipolar.

It's all DU to me.

[William769]

76. "There are only 10 types of people in the world:

Those who understand binary, and those who don't."