Let's list all the great things pragmatism has done for Democratic ideals in the last 28 years.

[Pale Blue Dot]

...


Ok, I'm done. You?



And by the way, you can't count Obama's election. He was elected because we let the Republicans and evangelicals get away with SO MUCH that they flushed this country down the toilet. So go ahead. Any others?

[cali]

1. Pragmaticism isn't a political philosophy. it's an approach, a way

looking at how to tackle a problem.

[Pale Blue Dot]

2. Ok, so list the great things that approach has done for Democratic ideals over the past 28 years.

Should be pretty easy, right?

[cali]

3. Here's an example of pragmaticism:

Bernie Sanders, who is a very pragmatic pol, took busloads of seniors up to Canada to fill their prescriptions at a reasonable price, and to showcase the high and unfair prices of prescriptions drugs in this country. That was a very pragmatic act.

[Pale Blue Dot]

5. LOL

You and I have VASTLY different definitions of pragmatism.

"In ordinary usage, pragmatism refers to behavior which temporarily sets aside one ideal to pursue a lesser, more achievable ideal." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatism_(non-technical_usage)

[Brazenly Liberal]

20. You and most of the world have vastly different definitions of pragmatism

Main Entry:
prag·ma·tism Listen to the pronunciation of pragmatism
Pronunciation:
\ˈprag-mə-ˌti-zəm\
Function:
noun
Date:
circa 1864

1 : a practical approach to problems and affairs <tried to strike a balance between principles and pragmatism> 2 : an American movement in philosophy founded by C. S. Peirce and William James and marked by the doctrines that the meaning of conceptions is to be sought in their practical bearings, that the function of thought is to guide action, and that truth is preeminently to be tested by the practical consequences of belief
— prag·ma·tist Listen to the pronunciation of pragmatist \-mə-tist\ adjective or noun
— prag·ma·tis·tic Listen to the pronunciation of pragmatistic \ˌprag-mə-ˈtis-tik\ adjective
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pragmatism

------------------------------------------------------------------------

prag·ma·tism < prágmə tìzzəm >

noun
Definition:

1. way of thinking about results: a straightforward practical way of thinking about things or dealing with problems, concerned with results rather than with theories and principles
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861737498
---------------------------------------------------------

prag·ma·tism (prgm-tzm)
n.
1. Philosophy A movement consisting of varying but associated theories, originally developed by Charles S. Peirce and William James and distinguished by the doctrine that the meaning of an idea or a proposition lies in its observable practical consequences.
2. A practical, matter-of-fact way of approaching or assessing situations or of solving problems.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pragmatic?jss=0
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

prag⋅mat⋅ic
   /prægˈmætɪk/ Show Spelled Pronunciation Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to a practical point of view or practical considerations.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pragmatic?jss=0

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

# pragmatic - # pragmatic - of or concerning the theory of pragmatism
# pragmatic sanction: an imperial decree that becomes part of the fundamental law of the land
# pragmatic - hardheaded: guided by practical experience and observation rather than theory; "a hardheaded appraisal of our position"; "a hard-nosed labor leader"; "completely practical in his approach to business"; "not ideology but pragmatic politics"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


pragmatic - Practical, concerned with making decisions and actions that are useful in practice, not just theory
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pragmatic


A method in philosophy where value is determined by practical results.
www.carm.org/atheism/terms.htm

[Pale Blue Dot]

9. I have to run out, but let the record show that the BEST example you've given me so far,

from the past 28 years, is BERNIE SANDERS, a man who has never, to my knowledge, ever compromised his ideals.

I think you've proven my point. Thank you! :hug:

[cali]

32. not a vermonter, are you? Bernie threw gun control advocates

about as under the bus as you could imagine when he first ran for the house. He ran against a very moderate repub named Peter Smith who served one term and was a gun control advocate. Bernie made a very big deal out of that issue, and most people attribute his success in winning the seat, at least partially, to his beating Smith over the head on gun control. Now I voted for Bernie in 1990, and I love the guy, but he made a very pragmatic decision on election tactics. And no, he wasn't anti-gun control prior to his run for Congress.

[Pale Blue Dot]

33. ...

:rofl:

[cali]

4. More. Brown v Board was a calculated and pragmatic

venue to end segregation.

[Pale Blue Dot]

6. Hmm... I thought Brown vs. Board happened over 50 years ago.

Thanks for setting me straight!

[AllentownJake]

11. Yes and the current Supreme Court seems likely to engage in more profiles in courage

:rofl:

Brown happened because FDR was President for 13 years and Truman for 7.

20 years of Supreme Court appointments got us Brown

[Solon]

29. Uhm, Brown v. Board was a Supreme Court Decision, not a political decision...

and as far as I know, no compromise was made within the decision to appeal to segregationists, they LOST the fucking case.

[AllentownJake]

7. Let me see what not standing on some principle has given us

De-regulation which has led to the cusp of a new great depression
Mentally Ill homelessnes
DOMA
The War in Iraq
FISA
the DLC
Bill Clinton's impeachment
Union's being weakened...
Schools crumbling
Infrastrucre crumbling
Rich are Richer and the Middle Class is poorer
Bush's tax cuts which now have been linked to the housing crisis

I'm sure I'm missing somethings.

[ddeclue]

14. how about NAFTA? don't ask - don't tell? Patriot Act/DHS, the Iraq War?

That's why I liked Edwards and Kucinich the best - they were no compromise straight forward candidates who didn't triangulate. It's why I liked Hillary the least because she triangulated the most. Apparently Obama is running closer to Hillary's triangulation than I thought he would.

Doug D.

[ellacott]

21. Edward talked progressive but his senate record didn't reflect that

Finegold didn't support him because he saw no evidence through his record that he was who he said he was.

Kucinich was my mayor and he is a true progressive.

[HamdenRice]

8. 8 years of peace and prosperity, 1993-2001. nt

[ellacott]

13. It can be argued that Clinton took a pragmatic triangulating approach to acheive that

Those weren't bad years for this country.

[blm]

26. While BushInc was growing STRONGER for their return to WH - thanks to Bill deep-sixing

all the matters outstanding in IranContra, Iraqgate, BCCI and CIA drugrunning for Poppy Bush and his powerful cronies throughout the 90s.

And BushInc was able to continue their operations globally during that time with the Dem president providing them all the cover they needed. And all we got in return was Bush2 taking us further down the path to global fascism, 9-11, and this Iraq war.

[ellacott]

10. Can you list great things Dems have done in the last 28yrs.?

Is pragmatism now a bad thing?

[Pale Blue Dot]

12. My argument is that Democrats have NOT done any great things because they were busy being pragmatic.

[ellacott]

17. It's surprising to learn that people think pragmaticism is bad

[wyldwolf]

23. your argument has failed miserably

[Pale Blue Dot]

25. Why?

I'm sure you have very compelling reasons for saying that, and I'd love to hear them.

[wyldwolf]

27. #1, you don't have a factual cornerstone to support your argument...

.. there has never been any set of agreed upon ideal of what the Democratic party stands for. Without those, there no factual room to discuss it.

But post 19 is a good start if we were to continue the discussion based on some vague notion of what ideals are.

[depakid]

15. Domestic partnerships in Oregon was pragmatic

whereas gay marrraige wouldn't have passed and would in any cases have been voided by initiative.

The Northwest Forest Plan was also pragmatic- or at least it was until Clinton betrayed the environmental groups he worked with by gutting it by signing the so called "Salvage Rider" (AKA logging without laws). Clinton has since apologized for that....

[LostinVA]

16. Oh SNAP -- k&r

[mmonk]

18. You've listed too many things. I have a negative number.

:)

[dmallind]

19. Easy

balanced budgets for first time in 35+ years
3.7% unemployment down from 7.1% inherited
23,000,000 new jobs in one administration
ERA of 1993
Millions removed from poverty in that same administration
Saved the Mexican and several SE Asian economies from complete collapse (and got all the loans paid back with interest)
Stopped a genocide without a single US combat fatality
Took a major role in closing the deal on a Northern Ireland peace
Gave us enormous international good will and political capital (although OK this could be a two edged sword, because it let a dumbass like Shrub spend it all on a stupid war of choice that made us a reviled pariah again, but hey, it was indeed an achievemnet of pragmatic Democrats even if abused later).

So nothing really important I guess, compared to say, getting the invite list to the inauguration scrubbed of anyone with any objectionable beliefs. Who did the prayer for Clinton's inauguration by the way and what imapct did they have later?

[wyldwolf]

22. no raining on parades today! shhhh!

[wyldwolf]

24. Tell me what manual you're pulling "Democratic Ideals" from.

[Pale Blue Dot]

28. The point of my OP is that YOU tell ME. I didn't include any specifically.

So, what Democratic Ideals from YOUR manual have been accomplished thanks to pragmatism over the past 28 years?

I'll let you have the last word.

[wyldwolf]

30. OK, there ARE no agreed upon "Democratic ideals."

But the answer you seek (and will probably reject) has already been given in this thread.

[AtomTan]

31. Just out of curiosity, what's an alternative to pragmatism that you'd suggest?

[GarbagemanLB]

34. The new head of the party is a ruthless pragmatist, so you better get used to it.

[HeraldSquare212]

35. NAFTA, Welfare reform, don't ask-don't tell

The list of accomplishments is endless....


(yes, that's sarcasm)