Facts: (1) Obama supports civil unions; (2) Rick Warren is the most popular pastor in the USA

[Unsane]

and is quite honestly pretty moderate.

Warren's presence at the inauguration says little to nothing about Obama's stance on GLBT issues.




Period.

[JenniferB]

1. .

I know

[GarbagemanLB]

2. The outrage over this is pretty ridiculous. He is saying a prayer. That's it.

If he was to be Obama's spiritual or policy advisor, that would be another story.

[Bluebear]

49. And McClurkin only "sang one song"

[QC]

3. Warren is a fundamentalist who has successfully marketed himself as a moderate.

If you want a genuine moderate evangelical, look for Tony Campolo or Jim Wallis.

[Solon]

4. First, Obama's position is atrocious, and second Rick Warren supported Prop 8...

The motherfucker should be admonished by Obama, not invited!

[Unsane]

5. atrocious?

So is Hillary's, Biden's, Edwards' and all the rest.

[Solon]

15. Your point? I didn't support any of them...

and only voted Obama on election day because the other choice was so much worse. So again, your point?

[EFerrari]

6. Oh, bullshit. Warren was a driving force behind Prop H8.

Are you trying to say that Obama doesn't know who the fuck he's invited?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

7. It's a cliche, but it's true.

You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time. You can't even please 100% of liberals or Democrats 100% of the time, for that matter.

Oh well. I personally think this is all a tempest in a teapot, and would rather look to what Obama does in office rather than who gives the prayer at the inauguration.

[scheming daemons]

8. The fact that Freeptards are just as pissed gives me great comfort...

..in knowing that Obama knows EXACTLY what he is doing.

[prostock69]

81. Agree!!

[QC]

9. Has Warren campaigned to take away your basic human rights?

If not, then well, I guess it is easy for you to be so cavalier about all this.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

16. We're going to have President Obama, not President Warren.

That's all that really matters in this.

[QC]

20. Thank you for telling me what I am and am not allowed to care about.

Can you drop by later and help me pick out some paint for my kitchen?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

23. I think you are misunderstanding me.

I'm not telling you what you should care about; I'm just encouraging everyone to put things in proper prespective. Who gives a 30 second invocation at the inauguration is at the very low end of the totem pole.

[QC]

25. Except that this gives Warren yet another means to present himself as a reasonable moderate

when he is, in fact, just a garden variety fundamentalist with some talent for marketing himself.

Warren is no moderate. Far from it. But between this and the bogus forum last fall, he's certainly getting to sell that false image of himself to bigger and bigger audiences.

[prostock69]

82. How are we going to change the view of the fundalmentalists on abortion and gay rights?

How are we going to bring them into the 21st century? By discourse!!! Obama and Rick are friends. Just like Obama was friends with Rev. Wright and Bill Ayers, who he has been accused of sharing the same views with due to "guilt by association."

From the Audacity of Hope:

"The first and most difficult step for some evangelical Christians is to acknowledge the critical role that the establishment clause has played not only in the development of our democracy but also in the robustness of our religious practice. Contrary to the claims of many on the Christian right who rail against the separation of church and state, their argument is not with a handful of liberal sixties judges. It is with the drafters of the Bill of Rights and the forebears of today's evangelical church."

"Moreover, given the increasing diversity of America's poplulation, the dangers of sectarianism have never been greater. Whatever we once were, we are no longer just a Christian nation; we are a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a Nation of Nonbelievers."

"Politics is hardly a science, and it too infrequently depends on reason. But in a pluralistic democracy, the same distinctions apply. Politics, like science, depends on our ability to persuade each other of common aims based on a common reality. Moreover, politics (unlike science) involves compromise, the art of the possible. At some fundamental level, religion does not allow for compromise. It insists on the impossible. If God has spoken, then followers are expected to live up to God's edicts, regardless of the consequences. To base one's life on such uncompromising commitments may be sublime; to base our policy making on such commitments would be a dangerous thing."

I truly feel Obama chose Rick Warren out of respect for what he has done with poverty and AIDS in Africa. But he didn't choose him because of his views on Abortion and Gay Rights. However, the only way to get Evangelicals to sway a little to the center, is to offer them a place at the table. The problem is everyone is still reeling from the damage Bush has done. Give Obama a chance to prove himself to be the great leader of this diverse nation.

[Unsane]

10. yeppers

[mwei924]

11. Rick Warren has a huge following in a community that is otherwise unfriendly to Obama and D's.

One prayer at the inaugural-- yeah, it kinda sucks that we have to see him, but he could go a long way to making things easier for Obama in the next four years to get stuff done.

[alwysdrunk]

24. It's called the big picture. Not everyone can see it.

President have to make tough choices for the good of the country. This is one of them.

[mwei924]

26. Not to mention, there is a reason why Rick Warren is popular... a lot of people like him.

And the people who like him are the ones who can either bring up bullshit for 4 years like the Clinton era or actually make an effort to work together.

[depakid]

71. Plenty of people can see the big picture-

and many of us who do find this to be about the stupidest shortsighted move Obama's folks have made since he actually went on this guys forum and got ambushed.

Not only did he miss an opportunity to give some limelight to a member of the rising liberal evangelical movement- but he created a controversy and insulted a constituency when there was absolutely no need to do so.

Moreover- he's once again enabled and legitimized fundamentalists and their dysfunctional beliefs- at a time when the last thing the nation needs (or wants) is more of their whack ass and divisive non-sense.

In other western nations, self-important preachers who form these sorts of churches are relegated to the fringes- (for good reason as we have seen from the consequences of their influence over the past 20 years) -not elevated to positions of national promience by incoming heads of state.

[yardwork]

35. How so? Do you seriously think that the right-wing will be on our side

just because Obama pandered to one of them?

Obama agreed to answer questions while McCain was supposedly in a cone of silence that he turned out not to be in - Rick Warren betrayed Obama once, how many times does Obama have to be kicked by Rick Warren before he figures out that the man is not on our side?

[mwei924]

46. Warren could preach for 4 years about how the Obama admin, and D's are destroying America. ..

..reaching a huge population of church-goers who follow his every word. How does that not make things difficult? It'll be Clinton era 2.0.

What we're seeing now at least is some top Republicans being openly supportive of Obama and criticizing the whole scandal connection. It's because we currently have some hold over their constituencies.

No I don't expect all the evangelicals to all of a sudden embrace Democrats because of this, but appearing to have a friendly relationship with America's most popular pastor goes a long way in some communities.

[jberryhill]

72. If the birth certificate cult members are any indication, it could be worse

than Clinton 2.0.

So, I'm guessing that Obama is not going to swear in on a Quran.

Sucks not to have their prejudices confirmed, I know.

[jberryhill]

70. Maybe they'll give up on "Obama is a Muslim terrorist"

Which would be a teeny step in the right direction.

[rpannier]

75. As I've posted before

How far should he be taking this:

He could invite the leader of the Aryan Brotherhood. There are a hell of a lot racists in this country. Maybe he could get their vote. They're Americans too.

Inviting someone who has views and has taken positions warren has, without expecting him to moderate his outlandish activities accomplishes nothing except enriching rev warren and making us look weak AGAIN!

At some point a stand must be taken, even if it is only a moral stand -- something many here seem unwilling to do.

[eridani]

78. Bullshit. They'll stay unfriendly

Some are probably working on Obama's impeachment even as we speak.

[FormerDittoHead]

84. I wish I could disagree, but they will continue to fight him tooth and nail and never give an inch.

If they voted for him in the G.E., I suppose this is for them, but the bottom line is that I know these people and they will take whatever they can and give nothing back in return.

Loyalty is a cornerstone of the right. Look at the popular vote numbers from the GE. Consider what the choices were, and Palin was going to be VP.

Look at the fights, ALREADY. Look at them starting to blame Obama for everything, unless they can blame Clinton, of course.

We can reach across as much as we can, they will only take bites at our fingers.

[ronnykmarshall]

12. MODERATE?

Uh this asshole helped PASS Prop 8 in California!!!!!

[qwlauren35]

53. So did lots of other moderates. Or is that the litmus test for right wing?

Lots of "moderate" people don't support same-sex marriage. Lots of "moderate" people are pro-life.

Sounds to me as though Warren is EXTREMELY conservative on social issues, but on other issues, he's more progressive.

Is there really only one way to evaluate someone?

That's like saying that George Wallace never did ANYTHING good for Alabama while he was governor. Yes, he sicced dogs on the people who marched in Birmingham. But I don't know his record well enough to know if he was conservative on every issue under the sun.

Life is not black and white.

[rpannier]

76. Glad you're okay with that

If this were 1954, you'd probably be out there talking up the "Separate but Equal Crowd' as well.

Thanks for playing.

[boppers]

13. FACT: Legitimizing hatred is a problem.

Warren's invitation sends a message that bigotry is acceptable, as long as it's popular.

[Jennicut]

14. I really could care less about a prayer.

Obama is pro civil unions so he is not anti gay.

[IndianaJones]

17. he does oppose gay marriage on religious grounds. nt.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

27. while that is true, he has also stated that if a bill passes his desk that

were to allow gay marriage on a nationwide scale he would sign it as he is there to do the will of the people and not his personal beliefs (not the exact phrasing but the same meaning)

[rpannier]

77. Like he said he opposed FISA legislation last Feb

and then changed last summer.

[Skittles]

63. OMG WTF

are you seriously that deluded? And by the way, the expression is, "I COULDN'T care less."

[Hell Hath No Fury]

18. Fail.

"pretty moderate" so long as you are straight or a male.

[qwlauren35]

55. That's a LOT OF PEOPLE!!!!

Half of the population is male, and of the women, probably at least 70% are straight.


That makes him pretty moderate to the vast majority of Americans.

[OwnedByFerrets]

61. Or not Jewish, Muslim, Buddists, female......the list goes on and on.

[WI_DEM]

19. This is the first decision Obama has made that I'm totally disatisfied with

I have quibbles with some of the cabinet choices, but overall I'm happy with his picks, but this one is inappropriate. He may be moderate to some but on issue of human rights, which includes gay/lesbian rights--he is wrong. Unfortunately, I don't think we can find somebody in the clergy who would be pure on anything. But I think since Warren was so outspoken during Prop 8 fight it is totally wrong.

[terrya]

21. After Prop 8, we don't need to have this crap shoved down our throats.

Again.

The Obama people have a big problem with this.

[Starry Messenger]

22. Amending the Constitution to eliminate human rights is moderate?

This isn't "just" about gay rights here...Prop 8 eliminated basic human rights for citizens of the USA. I know it's just a prayer, but there must be pastors that aren't into that kind of crap.

Gay rights are the excuse they use to pull this kind of shit.

[Are_grits_groceries]

31. I hear all the people saying it's just a political calculation.

However, did this have to be one. I didn't expect Obama to invite someone who
openly was against Prop 8. I didn't think he would want to poke supporters in the eye.

But this is extremely personal and important to a lot of people. On this one thing,
did he have to poke our eyes??

[Starry Messenger]

34. I didn't expect it either.

I'm floored, frankly. Strongly worded letter going out this afternoon for SURE.

[alwysdrunk]

32. Won't ever happen

There is not nearly enough support for something like that, and the support that there is decreases every year. Rick Warren saying one prayer won't change that.

[Starry Messenger]

37. I'm not sure what you mean.

It did happen. That's what Prop 8 was. An Amendment to the California Constitution. It passed. Rick Warren saying one prayer legitimizes that.

[alwysdrunk]

47. You're right

I thought you were referring to the movement for amendment of the Federal constitution.

And Prop 8, while morally wrong, was technically fully legitimate. More people on our side should have been doing what Warren did for his side.

[qwlauren35]

57. It will NOT happen on a national level.

There are enough people who will fight against it, simply based on over-riding states rights, i.e. Massachusetts.

What happens in one state doesn't mean nationwide endorsement.

Proposition 8 impacted ONE STATE. It didn't impact Massachusetts, or Vermont, or any other state where the citizens decided to support same-sex marriage (or civil unions).

[tsuki]

28. There are a lot of Godly pastors out there that aren't always seeking

the fame, the spotlight. He could have chosen one of them.

[grantcart]

29. Billy Graham was very popular too,

Putting aside the GLBT issues, and thats a major putting aside, why continue to elevate these gunslinger pastors that build mega churches and are powers to themselves.

There are thousands of well educated pastors (some with conservative credentials) that are apart of connected church organizations that are always more socially responsible than mega church pop star type.


It is not a major indictment. It is disappointing. In effect Obama is anointing Warren as Billy Graham's successor.

[yardwork]

30. Please provide evidence for your statement that Rick Warren is moderate.

My understanding is that Rick Warren believes:

That abortion should be outlawed even if the mother's life is in danger,
That gays are abominations and should have no rights,
That evolution is a lie and creationism should be taught in schools.

What did I miss?

[cali]

39. He's not a moderate except on climate change

he's a huckster and an asshole.

[yardwork]

40. I'm still waiting to hear how Warren is a moderate.

[QC]

44. But...but...but...he wears Hawaiian shirts. And the corpmedia say he's a moderate! n/t

[happychatter]

33. oh gawud, now you've done it

:popcorn:

[AllentownJake]

36. Moderate compared to fucking what?

He's against Abortion, no exceptions. He believes the earth is 6000 years old, He believes the Bible is the inerrant word of God.

I guess because he just want gays to stop being gay and doesn't want to stone them he's a moderate. :sarcasm:

Seriously just because the guy wears a floral shirt and Jeans does not a moderate make.

[BestCenter]

52. Look up the PEACE Plan

He wants to help AIDS victims in Africa and also prevention efforts- distributing condoms and clean needles for addicts if need be- and is also for anti-poverty efforts.

The right-wing hates him for this, go figure.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

68. True, but that same plan has been accused of being dominionism-lite.

And he failed to condemn US use of torture under Bush, stating he did not comment on policy issues while simultaneously coming out in favor of prop 8.

And he awarded Bush his Medal of PEACE for his efforts to curb AIDS in Africa but ignored his war record.

[BestCenter]

85. He's far from perfect

But social justice is social justice.

[AlinPA]

38. He preaches that the earth is only 6000 years old. So much for science.

[Unsane]

42. link?

[AlinPA]

48. Just saw one here - hold on. I'll get it.

[AlinPA]

50. Here it is. Check it about the dinosaurs.

http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/membership/group_finder/faqs_smallgroup.asp?id=7509#q_30

[CTyankee]

80. boom boom acka-lacka lacka boom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UNRgeZlhLg

Open the door, get on the floor...

[AlinPA]

83. Good Morning! Thank you.

[iamincali83]

41. Rick Warren is a fundie...

who acts like a moderate! I don't know why Obama picked him to be at the inauguration. I'm fed up with these egotistical ministers who think they're Messiahs.

[cboy4]

43. Oh brother.

[Neshanic]

45. Vanna White is popular also. Have her give the fucking thing.

[mwei924]

54. If the inauguration required someone to reveal letters, she'd be first in line. nt

[yardwork]

51. Does this sound like a moderate stance?

Rick Warren: But the issue to me is, I知 not opposed to that as much as I知 opposed to the redefinition of a 5,000-year definition of marriage. I知 opposed to having a brother and sister be together and call that marriage. I知 opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that a marriage. I知 opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.

Steven Waldman: Do you think, though, that they are equivalent to having gays getting married?

Rick Warren: Oh I do.

http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2008/12/16/7415

[dbackjon]

56. RIck Warren is fucking fascist PIG who hates women and gays

[qwlauren35]

59. Good lord! Hates Women and Gays? CRAP.

Once again... vehemently opposing a position, issue or cause is NOT THE SAME AS HATING SOMEONE.

I truly doubt that Rick Warren hates women. And I'm not sure that you could prove that he HATES gays.

[dbackjon]

60. Yes, he hates gays

In fact, anyone that does not support full equality for gays is a homophobic fucking bigot.

You are either for equality, or against it.

[Sebastian Doyle]

58. Rick Warren is to the Fundagelicals what the DLC is to right wing ideology

Same old shit in a shiny new wrapper. :puke:

[KoKo]

62. If he's the most popular pastor in USA...why haven't many of us heard of him?

Before he spewed his biggoted screeds? I'm a protestant (Episcopal). I guess it's up to where one seeks one's spiritual advice from. I don't watch that religious stuff on TeeVee or listen on radio to whatever the RW Fundies are spewing. I live around too many of them with their car bumper stickers for "Bush/Cheny '04" that they never took off and their "fish thing" on cars. I work with some of them who give me invitations to "group study on the Book of Revelations" and I pass it up, politely.

Maybe the guy's the most popular pastor to the Limbaugh/Fox News Crowd...but I don't watch or listen to them, either. :eyes: Sheesh...I must be really out of it.

[depakid]

74. Because most of us believe in science- and aren't threatened by gays

or women in positions of power.

[mwei924]

79. You've never heard of him?

Been to a bookstore lately? His stupid "Purpose Driven Life" is everywhere. He was the cover of TIME magazine not long ago too.

[KitchenWitch]

64. I will pass on whatever it is you are smoking.

Rick Warren is about as moderate as Paul Wellstone was right wing.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

65. He's not moderate. He's very conservative. He just sugar-coats his message.

[cboy4]

66. How was it I missed this piece of work?

:crazy:

[LeftyMom]

67. Warren is an anti-woman, anti-gay, right wing Orange County nutjob.

He's only "moderate" by the standards of crazy fundamentalist asshats because he doesn't scapegoat the poor for their problems to the same degree that other right wing fundamentalist douchetards do. Oh, and because he really doesn't have the presence to aspire to demagoguery, so he has to restrain himself from saying too many things that are blatantly mean.

[Beacool]

69. Warren is as much a moderate as Pat Buchanan is pro immigration.

:eyes:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

73. If Rick Warren is a moderate, so is Sarah Palin

Fred Phelps would be slightly right of center.