STOP Framing the argument as Caroline Haters or Hillary Haters..

[ddeclue]

That is blatantly unfair!

We are entitled to have someone else besides a "royal family member" to fill empty offices.

There are 300 MILLION Americans in this country. We needn't limit ourselves to Kennedies, Bushes and Clintons when picking an elected official..


:eyes:

[LisaM]

1. Which of the 300 million do you have in mind for this seat?

Just curious......

[ddeclue]

9. Why not Charlie Rangel or Louise Slaughter????

Hmmm???

Why is Caroline Kennedy better qualified than these people??

[LisaM]

13. Do either of them WANT the job?

Geesh, she's simply expressed interest. I think she would be a good choice, but, then, I've always liked her. I haven't heard Charlie Rangel say he wants to be an interim senator. I think he liked where he is. I haven't heard Louise Slaughter say it either.

[ddeclue]

15. Who knows and why do they have to "want" the job to be asked...

I'd rather have someone who did it because they were asked than someone who wanted it too badly.

Doug D.

[stillcool]

22. Maybe you'll get Fran Drescher..

she seems smart, and capable. Just because someone is 'interested', or would like to be considered..does not mean they 'want it badly'. Why would you get that impression of Caroline Kennedy? Is there something about Caroline that you personally find distasteful, or is it only her family?

[ddeclue]

24. I have no problems with the Kennedies other than 2 members of Congress is plenty..

three is too much. Hence the point of my thread.

[stillcool]

41. yeah...I hope she moves here..

and runs for her Uncle's seat. I think she would be very welcome in this state.

[WillyT]

16. Um... Ole Charlie Is In A Bit Of A Sticky Wicket At The Moment...

And... it's Rangel.

:shrug:

[ddeclue]

20. What about Louise Slaughter then???

There are plenty of other names I can dig up in NY politics so you can keep batting them down but I can keep throwing others up that are more qualified than Caroline Kennedy and more deserving.

[question everything]

64. No, not Rangel. He may have to face serious ethics questions (nt)

[DJ13]

2. "royal family member"

You mean Hillary?

[ddeclue]

5. In THIS case I mean Caroline...

in the past I've meant Hillary.

[sandnsea]

3. Would you oppose RFK Jr too?

I think trashing the name leads people to conclude there's some kind of hating going on. There's a number of Kennedys who I think are enormously qualified. Caroline just doesn't happen to be one of them, and she and RFK Jr. are my favorite Kennedys.

[ddeclue]

6. This is 2008, not 1968 and RFK JR is NOT on the menu...

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

11. Because he took himself off

If he hadn't - would you oppose him too?

[ddeclue]

18. Yes because no family should have THREE members of Congress.

That is just too much.

[sandnsea]

38. Since Ted is dying

That would only be one in the House and one in the Senate. So, would RFK Jr be okay under those circumstances? And don't even bring the heroin shit up, that was decades ago.

[ddeclue]

40. Actually even two is quite a lot...

and Ted isn't gone yet so it's premature to be talking about him like he is.

I don't care about the heroin - especially if it is as described 27 years ago... ancient history.

My beef is over the over representation of certain "royal families" in our government not over some ancient drug charge.

[sandnsea]

46. Two people is not a "royal family"

That's absurd. If you don't like the Kennedy's, fine. But having two people in D.C. from the same family is not outlandish or anything close to it.

[ddeclue]

48. Statistically speaking it IS since 99.999%+ of families have NO members of Congress.

There are three families with 2 members in recent history:

The Diaze Balart Brothers, the Diaz sisters and the Kennedies.

Now adding a THIRD Kennedy would make them unique even amongst THESE anomalies.

Doug D.

[sandnsea]

58. There will not be a third

Because, outside of a miracle, medical or otherwise, Ted Kennedy is dying. That's just a sad fact. This isn't the outlandish event you are trying to turn it into.

[ddeclue]

Then perhaps Caroline ought to move to MA and take over Ted Kennedy's seat

when he eventually passes. That seems more appropriate to me.

[sandnsea]

68. That would still be a "royal family"

in Congress. New York shouldn't bother you any more than Mass. Caroline grew up in New York City. She is as known there as she is in Mass.

[ddeclue]

70. Yes it would be but I would find it more acceptable than in NY.

[leftynyc]

105. That's ridiculous

Caroline has lived in NY since shortly after her father was killed. If your beef is with "royal family names", why better in a state she's not a resident of?

[ddeclue]

60. Then perhaps Caroline ought to move to MA and take over Ted Kennedy's seat

when he eventually passes. That seems more appropriate to me.

[stillcool]

95. because she was born in New York...

was raised in New York, passed the bar in New York, worked for the New York education system, knows oodles of New Yorker's she should move to Massachusetts to either run for the Senate or fill a vacant Senate seat?

[arcos]

100. There's also the Udalls...

Both promoted simultaneously to the Senate last November, btw.

[XemaSab]

8. I would

On the grounds that we can get someone who's not a former smack addict.

There are some stains you can't get out, and heroin is one of them.

[sandnsea]

Wow.

That was a shitty thing to say.

[XemaSab]

14. How so?

I've had friends who were addicted to heroin, and it's not an okay drug to do.

If it was pot I would feel differently.

[ddeclue]

21. Are you saying that RFK Jr was a heroin addict???

I never heard THAT story before... is that true?

Doug D.

[XemaSab]

27. He's been arrested for possession

n/t

[ddeclue]

29. When???? I had no idea....

I've heard him from time to time on AAR but had never heard of this. Is this something from 30 years ago or last week? The main comment I have about him is that his voice is not well suited for radio.

[XemaSab]

31. I think 1981

n/t

[question everything]

67. Wikipedia to the rescue

In 1983, he was arrested in a Rapid City South Dakota Airport for heroin possession. A search of his carry-on bag uncovered 183 milligrams of the drug.<3> Upon entering a plea of guilty, Kennedy, then 30 years old, was sentenced to two years probation, periodic tests for drug use, treatment by joining Narcotics Anonymous, and 1,500 hours of community service by Presiding Judge Marshall P. Young.<4>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kennedy_Jr.

[ddeclue]

72. OMG Ancient History...who cares? This is NOT my problem...n/t

[mtnsnake]

4. I could live with Kennedys and Clintons in office forever

I loved Hillary as my Senator, as did most NYers, and I will love Caroline if she gets appointed, even if it's only because of her name at first. I like the Cuomo name, too, a lot. Let it rain Kennedys, Clintons, Cuomos forever and life will be good.

[PBS Poll-435]

7. IBTBCCITFHCBS

:P

[ddeclue]

10. I left my magic decoder ring in the glovebox...can you decode this please?

:shrug:

[PBS Poll-435]

12. I will split it up for ya

IBT BCCI TFH CBS

[ddeclue]

17. Still doesn't mean anything...

CBS= Columbia Broadcasting System
BCCI = A bank of less than high repute that the CIA used to use...

The others mean nothing.

I'm sure that this is still not what you mean.

[PBS Poll-435]

19. 1 out of 2 ain't bad

In Before The Bank of Credit and Commerce International Tin-Foil Hat Crazy Bull Shit.

Praise a Clinton, and it takes just minutes.

[AspenRose]

23. Does this include Cuomos, too?

[ddeclue]

26. I created a list of dynastic families earlier in another thread and yes it does..

John Adams and John Quincy Adams
TR and FDR
The Bushes
John H. and John E. Sununu
Mario and Andrew Cuomo
Any number of Kennedies
The Clintons
The Daleys
The Meeks
The Diaz-Balarts
The Sanchez's

There are a number of these dynastic families to various degrees.

That said, if MARIO wer picked that would be different than if ANDREW were picked since Andrew is inheriting his father's name and reputation but Mario is the original.

[Muttocracy]

86. I would love it if Paterson picked Mario Cuomo to serve for 2 years

and then let Caroline and whoever else run later.

[me b zola]

102. Because by all means, the last thing that we need is another FDR

:eyes:

See how ridiculous you are? Now consider that the guy that we just elected to lead us out of the biggest pile of crap ever dumped on the US by a pol (yes, imo, bigger shit-hole than what Hoover left) will need allies in the Senate to help him pass the legislation that we need to be passed.

Lead (you're not leading)
Follow (your're following the wrong clues)
Or Get Out Of The Way! (this seems to be the best advice that could be offered to you)

[EFerrari]

25. Your first mistake is misspelling "Kennedy" and your second mistake

is putting a family with a long history of service to their country in the same category as Bushes or Clintons.

There is no comparison.

[ddeclue]

28. Firstly there is nothing wrong with the spelling as a plural form.

of Kennedy.

Secondly this has NOTHING to do with comparing Bushes to Kennedies.

It has to do with NOT having a hereditary monarchy in this country.

And your claim of "public service" is the same claim of all monarchies that they are somehow doing me a favor by being in charge.

Governors should NOT be allowed to appoint empty seats - they should have to be filled by special election.

Doug D.

[EFerrari]

32. Well, no. You are free to make up forms but that doesn't make them right.

And you are not free to discount actual public service and sacrifice. That you don't appreciate that service or that you are so short sighted as to compare it with feudalism says much more about you than about anyone.

And, you also not entitled to tell New York state how it should conduct its business. Thankfully.

[ddeclue]

39. I am free to do as I please and their public service is no greater than anyone elses - it's just

gotten better publicity -as all royal families do. Yet there are plenty of families who have performed far more "service" to their nation and not gotten the same recognition. You are just star struck.

That you are so star struck as to not appreciate the consequences of how these dynasties short change our democratic form of government is far more important than my "under appreciation" of the Kennedies.

As for Kennedys versus Kennedies: Try googling it. It comes up as often either way. As a plural form, it makes more sense to me.

[EFerrari]

43. Their public service is not greater than anyone else's, just better publicized?

If I'm not mistaken, you're also the same poster that sings the praises of OpScan voting systems. Forgive me if I take your opinions with a pillar of salt.

I've never been star struck in my life. I have learned to appreciate other people's work very much, though, in my fifty years.

As for your improvements to the English language, pass.

[ddeclue]

47. What does OpScan have to do with THIS?

and why do you not like it? It is human countable what more can you ask for?

Silly...

If you don't get that the KennedIES are not any better than the rest of us you really don't have a good understanding of America - their service is no better than any other family, they've just had better publicity and better opportunities. Plenty of families have lost multiple members in wars, performed lifetimes of public service and nobody has ever heard their names.

You ARE star struck and NO I'm NOT improving the English language just using it like everyone else.

[JuniperLea]

55. I'm carrying my own salt lick to this poster's threads...

And I'm in search of a boxer's mouthpiece... I grind my teeth and try not to correct this one... I call this arguing against spelling facts willful ignorance... just using the language like the rest of the poor spellers, ya know? Ugh...

[ddeclue]

59. Plenty of hits under KennedIES on Google... get over it..

I scored 660 on my SAT verbals which is the lower of my two scores (math 750) and have a certificate in American Literature to go with my Aerospace Engineering degree. I don't need your spelling advice thank you. English has plenty of variations in spelling regionally and in this case I don't see any definitive proof that one form is more acceptable than the other.


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[JuniperLea]

63. Just because it's used by a lot of idiots doesn't make it correct...

And don't you dare force me to post my Mensa membership card, or my SAT scores.

[ddeclue]

69. Whatever.. when something is in common usage you really

can't spend a lot of time arguing that it is wrong.

As for Mensa, I'm quite confident in my own abilities and don't really care what your own scores are or are not. I only offered my credentials by way of rebuttal.

Yours approach to language which simply is both inappropriate and stifling to American English a language which has evolved and adopted many thousands of words all without the permission of some pretentious language academy like the Academie de Langue Francais which insists on trying to shove its rules down the throats of other people who speak the language natively.

I ask you:

Is it theater or theatre?

Analog or Analogue?

Do you publicize or publicise?

There are plenty of examples of alternate spellings and if it is in common use then it is really hard for you to say that my spelling of it is "unacceptable". You are simply out voted by the public at large.

Doug D.

[JuniperLea]

74. Your run-on sentence, poorly spelled, and hideously devoid of grammar is very telling...

"Yours approach to language which simply is both inappropriate and stifling to American English a language which has evolved and adopted many thousands of words all without the permission of some pretentious language academy like the Academie de Langue Francais which insists on trying to shove its rules down the throats of other people who speak the language natively."

I proofread op-eds, and other media placement items, in addition to presentation materials for Fortune 500 companies as part of my profession. You are scary to me. There are some colloquialisms and misspelled words that make it into dictionaries because they are commonly used, but that doesn't stop people like me who use the English language in their careers from being highly upset at the practice. The dumbing down of our language doesn't help anyone.

So, your scores are relevant, yet mine are not. Volumes... that speaks volumes.

[ddeclue]

79. I am not here to have you grade my grammar.

And I don't give a tinker's damn about what you think of it.

You are NOT my English professor and plenty of people think highly of my writing.

I've been published in the Orlando Sentinel in an Op-Ed and was a frequent guest blogger at brainshrub.com for about 18 months until they changed formats.

Your arrogance is what is telling.

Good day to you.

[JuniperLea]

83. I'm betting that editor had Excedrin headache no. 675

Whilst editing your op-ed.

[ddeclue]

87. You would be wrong...

He was very excited to print it.

:rofl:

[WillyT]

37. And You Should Work To That End...

"Governors should NOT be allowed to appoint empty seats - they should have to be filled by special election."

But it ain't gonna happen in this instance. Nor for the 2010 or 2012 cycles.

And you are going to have to find out how many of the 50 states have this proviso, and work to change it in ALL of them.

The states get to determine who goes to Washington.

But by all means... start your crusade. I'll be the first to sign your petition.

But for now... just give me a Democrat I can live with.

:shrug:

[ddeclue]

52. Right now 25 states appoint 25 hold S.E's

[H2O Man]

97. Other than being incorrect.

But it fits the OP.

[mtnsnake]

34. You've got some nerve using the Kennedy name as a means to bash the Clinton name

your second mistake is putting a family with a long history of service to their country in the same category as Bushes or Clintons. There is no comparison.

Anything you can do to drive a wedge and you'll do it, even if it means pitting the Kennedy name against the Clinton name. What the fuck is it with you? Why would you pit the Kennedy name against the Clinton name? Are you only here to divide and to make sure half the place hates the Clintons? Half the place already hates the Clintons, so why are you even bothering? Are you on a mission or something?

[ddeclue]

42. OH DEAR GOD.. you don't have a clue what you are talking about

I am NOT pitting Clinton against Kennedy.

My beef is with ANY royal family and the Clintons and the Kennedies BOTH qualify.

You have some nerve trying to spin me and put words into my mouth.

Doug D.

[mtnsnake]

45. My post wasn't directed at you. It was directed at sfexpat2000.

[ddeclue]

49. My apologies...n/t

[mtnsnake]

54. LOL, no problem. n/t

[ddeclue]

50. My apologies...n/t

[paulk]

101. on driving a wedge and motive for doing so

are you aware that the poster in question is a member of the Green Party? Or was up until she registered as a Dem for the express purpose of voting against Nancy Pelosi in the recent primary... perhaps now that Ms Pelosi has handily won reelection, she'll switch back. Or maybe not, since wasting your vote voting against Nancy Pelosi isn't much different than wasting your vote on a Green candidate in pretty much any election...

[EFerrari]

103. Save it. n/t

[question everything]

71. Lessee, Ted Kennedy ran against Carter, all the way to the convention

probably ushered the era of Reagan and PNAC and the rest of the conservative "agenda." Did not stop him and his clan, though, to demand that Hillary quit her campaign before the primaries were over.

Bill Clinton was the first, and so far the only, Democratic President to be re elected since FDR. He presided over economic expansion across all income levels. He appointed two Supreme Court Justices that held the right tilting court at bay.

Yeah, right, the Kennedy family should not be compared to the Clintons.

[ddeclue]

76. For ME this is NOT about pitting Kennedies against Clintons.

1) NO I don't blame Ted for Carter's defeat. Carter was simply doomed because he inherited the national hangover from the Vietnam War and Watergate and had inflation, high gas prices and the Iran hostage crisis piled on top of that. Mostly it was the Iran hostage crisis which did Carter in and REAGAN screwed around with that to insure Carter's defeat.

2) I don't see anything wrong with the Kennedies calling for Hillary to suspend. A lot of us were - she simply did not have the delegate numbers to win and she persisted for months after this became apparent. In the end it didn't really matter so this is a nontroversy to me.

3) Bill Clinton did a good job as President but he also brought us NAFTA and deregulation of the telecom industry and near the end also some of the various stock market deregulations that put us into trouble today. He didn'initiate the stock market deregulation but he didn't veto it either.

Neither family is perfect. Both are good Democrats.

My issue here is simply to let other people have a chance. No matter how good they might be there are plenty of others who deserve a chance to serve too.

What if we had thought this way in 1944 and FDR had picked one of his sons to be his VP instead of Harry Truman?

Doug D.

[EFerrari]

104. You are talking about presidential politics. I am talking about service to the country. n/t

[happychatter]

30. This is a matter for the people of New York and as long as it's a Democrat, I'm happy - NT

[ddeclue]

33. It's a matter for anyone who wants to talk about it... this is America

and we can all express our opinion.

New Yorkers opinions will not matter any more than mine anyways -except for the Governor of New York - since they are not being allowed to vote on it in a special election until 2010.

[happychatter]

98. did I try to censor you? um, no... did I say this thread serves no purpose? um, no...

did I express an opinion that was extreme?

did I say that anyone that doesn't share my attitude is wrong?

um.... NO

there's always a snarky twerp in the mix

"I enjoy offending people that enjoy BEING offended." F. Zappa

you didn't say thank you

I'm outraged

[happychatter]

99. oh now i GET IT... you respond to every little thing even when you HAVE nothing

to artificially kick up your own thread

you really should try to do that without spitting on other people's shoes

You had STOP in all caps in your thread title... but I AM SUPPRESSING discussion?

very weird

is this one of those "her enemy is MY enemy" things?

because it makes no other sense

[question everything]

35. At least Hillary campaigned for her senate seat

Caroline will be appointed and will have the job for the rest of her life. What Democrat would dare challenge her in the 2012 primaries? In the 2018?

[ddeclue]

44. This much is true and I donated to her campaign in 2000 for Senate.

I didn't like the idea of her running for President but that's a different story.

Perhaps Governor Patterson should appoint himself to the Senate....

I think he'd be the first blind man in the Senate if he did and now that Obama has resigned he would also be the only African American (although he may now be the only AA governor).

[demwing]

36. You ask for the cesation of the haters argument

then flame the conversation with your "royal family" garbage. I'm convinced.

[ddeclue]

51. It is a functional description - nothing more.

[JuniperLea]

53. Who wants the seat and is being ignored or pushed out because of Kennedy?

What's blatantly unfair is the bigotry Caroline is having hurled at her by alleged progressives.

[ddeclue]

56. There's no "bigotry" just a demand that everybody deserves a shot

not just the Kennedies who already have two members in Congress.

There are PLENTY of OTHER qualified New York Democrats to choose from and I'm offended that she should automatically be the choice and that everyone should be fawning over her for no particular reason.

[JuniperLea]

57. Take a clue card...

Your prejudices against all people Kennedy is bigotry, pure and simple. If your only beef against the woman is her family, you are a fucking bigot, period.

Again, who wants the seat but is being ignored?

[ddeclue]

62. No I wouldn't want RFK Jr for this seat EITHER.

And it is NOT bigotry.

From wiki:

A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding attitude or mindset. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term to describe a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices, especially when these views are either challenged, or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable.

I am NOT opposing an opinon, lifestle or identity different from my own.

You are using nasty names to try and discredit me and it is uncalled for.

I am simply pointing out a FACT which you have NOT refuted - that there are plenty of OTHER qualified Demcrats in New York and it is time to give someone ELSE a chance besides yet another Kennedy.

You are advocating for dynastic families and cult of personality, I am advocating for merit and democracy and spreading opportunity around.

Have you considered that perhaps we ought to appoint another African American to the Senate?

African Americans compose 12% of the population yet now that Obama has left the Senate there are NO African American Senators. There should be 6 if it were at parity with the population.

No you'd rather appoint another Kennedy than do something more progressive with this opportunity.


Doug D.

[JuniperLea]

66. Thanks for proving you are full of shit

From your own post: "Bigot is often used as a pejorative term to describe a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices."

So, you think someone should be in the Senate purely because of the amount of melanin in their skin? That makes them a superior candidate?

You are one sick puppy. A sick and bigoted puppy.

[ddeclue]

73. What a load of BS...

I'm white the Kennedies are white and NO I don't think that someone's race makes them a superior candidate but I do think that it's time we gave someone ELSE a chance and a voice.

[JuniperLea]

80. You are the one who is full of BS

You just said a black person should get the job because we need more black people in the senate. How does that help anyone? And you STILL haven't named one person who is being overlooked because of Kennedy.

[ddeclue]

88. No I've name 38 MILLION people who are being overlooked.

The African Americans of this country.

It helps by giving them an actual voice in the Senate.

[JuniperLea]

106. Which one is seeking the seat and being overlooked?

You just can't answer a straight question with a straight answer.

[question everything]

75. Until he became "Candidate No. 5" many supported

Jesse Jackson Jr. to replace Obama because he is black.

[JuniperLea]

78. That's just wrong

Color should have nothing to do with anything, one way or the other. And it certainly shouldn't be a factor in this senate seat.

[ddeclue]

81. Why NOT?

Why should an entire race of people not have ANY representation in the United States Senate while one particular family has THREE representatives in Congress two of which are in the Senate?

[JuniperLea]

85. You are bereft of cognitive ability if you think it's good for anyone...

That someone get a job solely because of their color. That helps no one.

[ddeclue]

89. You are the one bereft of cognition my friend

I never said based purely on the color of their skin.

Yet, you too are picking someone who has a particular skin color only you are being far more specific than that and limiting it to a particular family.

There are PLENTY of people equally or BETTER qualified than Caroline Kennedy to be a United States Senator in New York, thousands, perhaps tens of thousands. I'm sure than there are plenty of qualified African Americans amongst them.

Doug D.

[stillcool]

96. Have they submitted their names for consideration?

What qualifications are important to you? Other than not being a Kennedy filling a vacant seat in New York?

[JuniperLea]

108. And which one of them is being overlooked because they want the seat

Check again, genius. You've said over and over you would like to see an African American in that seat, yet you cannot name one in particular that is seeking it, and you have no other qualification... being black is the only qualification you have presented.

[Double T]

61. Caroline will make a great Senator from NY.

And she will be reelected in 2010. See YOU in the winners circle!

[ddeclue]

65. So would any number of OTHER Democrats who would ALSO be re-elected in 2010.

New York is bright blue, this isn't a state we have to worry about.

[JuniperLea]

77. You still haven't said who is getting the shaft...

Who isn't being considered because of Caroline?

[ddeclue]

82. I think African Americans are definitely getting the shaft here.

They now have no one in the Senate.

[JuniperLea]

84. And you think someone should be given a seat...

Purely by virtue of their skin color, regardless of education, ability, etc.

[ddeclue]

90. Stop putting words into my mouth that I did not say.

There are PLENTY of qualified people, tens of thousands in New York who equally or better qualified than Caroline Kennedy, many amongst them are African American. You are putting up a straw man argument and putting words into my mouth I never said.

Doug D.

[JuniperLea]

107. Yet you cannot name one of them who is seeking the seat

And is qualified. You are hell bent on trying to make your Kennedy bigotry stick.

[stillcool]

91. Why are so many Hillary supporters

so against Caroline Kennedy? What do you care who the Governor of New York chooses to fill that seat for 2 years? Or is it just anyone but Caroline Kennedy? Why is that? Are you a Democrat?

[ddeclue]

93. Actually I'm not really a Hillary supporter if you mean from the 2008 Presidential cycle.

I supported her for the NY Senate Seat and even donated money for that.

I was originally a JRE supporter and even organizer for him here in FL.

When he stepped back, I switched to Obama.

My opposition has nothing to do with a like or dislike of Caroline Kennedy OR Hillary Clinton, I just want to see somebody else get a chance - it's about fundamental fairness. There are far more qualified people available for these jobs than there are slots - why does it always have to go to the same families over and over again?

Doug D.

[stillcool]

94. I don't know that it will go to her..

maybe you should write to the Governor and voice your concerns. As far as 'qualified', I don't know what 'qualities' you are seeking. It's a shame she is unacceptable because of her family name. If she moves here, I'm sure she would not have a problem with that.

[bridgit]

92. rec 5