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George W. Bush Wore a Ribbon He Did Not Earn

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:50 PM
Original message
George W. Bush Wore a Ribbon He Did Not Earn
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 08:03 PM by Walt Starr


This is a photograph published on the Presidential Library site of George H.W. Bush. We can clearly see that in this photograph, George W. Bush is wearing an Air Force Outstanding Unit Award (AFOUA) and a Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (SAEMR) just below his pilot wings, however, on line 24 of his NGB22 National Guard discharge form dated October 1, 1973, George W. Bush has no awards listed:



The photograph above was also included in the information released by the Bush administration:



He is listed as a second lieutenant in this photograph, and we know for a fact he earned the wings as he graduated from Undergraduate Pilot Training according to the record. As far as the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon is concerned, he obviously earned that ribbon while he was an Airman prior to his commission as evidenced by line 24 of the NGB22 filed when he was discharged as an Airman:



The Bush administration has also provided a military biography:




The awards listed here are the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon and the National Defense Service Medal, but no mention is made of the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award. It also lists his dates of service with units. Other than his time training, he was assigned to the 111th Fighter Intercept Squadron and its parent organization, the 147th Fighter Intercept Group. His discharge date from the Texas National Guard was October 1, 1973.

The above photograph had to have been taken some time between his qualifying as a pilot in 1969 and his promotion to First Lieutenant on November 7, 1970.

So what about the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award? In the United States Army, unit awards can be worn on a temporary basis. If you are transferred into the unit that has received an award, you wear that award until you transfer out of that unit. I contacted the Air Force Personnel Center and asked whether the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award was ever authorized for temporary wear. This was their answer:

IAW AF Instruction 36-2803, THE AIR FORCE AWARDS AND DECORATIONS PROGRAM

All assigned or attached people who served with a unit during a period for which a unit award was awarded are authorized the appropriate ribbon if they directly contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit.

Additionally, there isn't a "temporary" wear of AF Outstanding Unit Awards for AF personnel.


So to finally solve the mystery of the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award, I contacted the Air Force History support Organization. I requested all dates of all awards of the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award received by the 147th Fighter Intercept Group and the 111th Fighter Intercept Squadron. The answer I received was shocking. This unit had received this award only once. The dates of the award are as follows quoting directly from the source at the AFHSO:

147th Fighter Interceptor Group AFOUA 1 Oct 73-30 Sep 75 DAFSO GB 164/77

111 Fighter Interceptor Squadron AFOUA 1 Oct 73-30 Sep 75 DAFSO GB 164/77


This states explicitly that the units received the Air force Outstanding Unit Award for the time period from October 1, 1973 to September 30, 1975. George W. Bushs discharge date from the 111th FIS and the 147th FIG was October 1, 1973. Clearly, these units did not receive an award of the AFOUA until after George W. Bush had been discharged, and well after the date the photograph in question was taken.

This means, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that George W. Bush was photographed wearing a ribbon he clearly did not earn.

Webliography:

Source of the photograph: bushlibrary.tamu.edu/photos/photos.php?file=HS502.jpg
Air Force Personnel Center: http://www.afpc.randolph.af.mil /
Air force History Support Office: http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil /
USA Today source of documents used in this report: http://www.usatoday.com/news/2004-02-14-bush-docs.htm
Source for ARG22: http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/2-Discharge.pdf
Source for NGB22: http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-2_2004_Personn...
Source for copy of photograph: http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-2_2004_Personn...
Source for "military biography": http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-1_2004_Personn...
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Original Air Force Personnel Center Email w/headers
X-Apparently-To: waltstarr@yahoo.com via 206.190.38.180; Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:50:30 -0700
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From: "AFPC/DPSTC Call Center" <AFPC.DPSTC@RANDOLPH.AF.MIL > Add to Address Book
To: "'waltstarr@yahoo.com'" <waltstarr@yahoo.com >
Subject: AFPC Contact Center Ticket # 040824-000022 (CIVILIAN CALL CENTER ISSUES) has been closed
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:50:07 -0500
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Walter Starr, below is your initial request, and resolution. If the resolution is not sufficient please e-mail us at mailto:contact.center@randolph.af.mil or the POC below. Include your ticket number. You can also submit an update to your original request by logging into https://webcolab.afpc.randolph.af.mil/Scripts/rightnowd...

Problem : A couple of questions about the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award
Problem Details : Hi, I have a couple of questions about the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award.

1) Has the AFOUA ever been authorized for temporary wear? The Army has many Unit Awards that, when you transfer into a unit, the award is worn temporarily, and then removed upon leaving said unit. Is this a practice of the Air Force or has it ever been a practice of the Air Force?


2) I have no access to the Air Force Pamphlet 900-2. I have found that the 147th FIG (now the 147th FIW) received a first award of the AFOUA in 1966 and a third, I believe, in 1982. Could you give me the dates of all AFOUA awards the 147th Fighter Intercept Wing has been awarded in its illustrious history?


Thank you so much!
Resolution : Mr. Starr,
IAW AF Instruction 36-2803, THE AIR FORCE AWARDS AND DECORATIONS PROGRAM

All assigned or attached people who served with a unit during a period for which a unit award was awarded are authorized the appropriate ribbon if they directly contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit.


Additionally, there isn't a "temporary" wear of AF Outstanding Unit Awards for AF personel. Unfortunately, we do not have access to 900-2 however, if you request verification of entitlement of award of the AFOUA while assigned to a specific unit from the National Personnel Records Center in St. Louis, they can research the data for you. Please send your request to the below address and include a copy of your DD Fm 214 showing proof of service. They'll be able to provide a one time issue of the award upon verification.



Resolution Details : The address:

NPRC
Military Personnel Records
9700 Page Ave
ST. Louis MO 63132-5100

PH#: Toll-free 1-866-272-6272
Fax number: 314-538-4175

Hours - Monday through Friday, 7:30 a.m. to 3:45 p.m. (Closed weekends and Federal holidays)

website address:
http://www.archives.gov/research_room/vetrecs/index.htm... on line request

Contact Center Agent: : Mr Aaron Murphy
Agents Email Address: : mailto:aaron.murphy@randolph.af.mil
Agents Phone Number: : Toll Free 1-800-616-3775; or DSN 665-5000

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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. first
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 07:52 PM by trumad
on edit:
second
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
18. Haha! Trumad, you sound like those yahoos on Yahoo that
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 08:02 PM by cat_girl25
race to the boards just to be first post on a breaking story. :-)

p.s. I'm not calling you a yahoo.
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
56. Well, they do it on atrios too...
and that is a really cool site: http://atrios.blogspot.com/
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
65. I learned it from Atrios...
except they say "Frist"...LOL
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #65
120. I think it came from slashdot
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Kick kick kick!
What great work, Walt!
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Who in the media has this been sent to?
:shrug:
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wurzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. What network or cable do you believe will broadcast this?
n/t
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
84. Provided the documentation is legit, most.
:hi:

They love ratings more then Bush.
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wurzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #84
101. They love money more than ratings. n/t
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #101
167. Ratings bring $$
:hi:
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wurzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #167
208. Advertisements bring $$$
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #208
213. Ratings = Advertising = $$$$$
:evilgrin:
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wurzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #213
225. Sponsorship = Advertising = $$$$
It is clear from the many rightwing programs with continued sponsorship, that ratings are secondary to the message. Why does Carlson have program on NPR? That twit Buckley had sponsors by the dozen for a program very few watched. Hannity and O'Reily have lower ratings than Moyers. I only wish what you were saying is true.
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Pot Kettle Black Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #208
214. Not to enable, but
ratings and projected ratings determine ad rates, ad rates determine if someone will place the ad, and ad placement becomes ad revenue.

You're both right. They love ratings because they are money, because they are better ad rates, caused by bigger audiences, which makes someone want to place an ad, and pay for it.

But, the media companies love Bush more than they love money, because the two are not all that different.

TV was a heavily regulated industry. It's a lot less regulated, but there are still some vestiges of media ownership regulation left in the world. Bush will remove those, allowing a company to own and operate more than 33 stations.

A bump for an interesting story will get a company maybe a million extra in revenue, if it's a very large bump (Bush crossdresses, Kerry secretly in love with Cheney's Lesbian daughter, or something else similarly huge and shocking). Weigh that against the prospect of owning 100 TV stations, rather than just 33, each one earning ad revenue and diffusing production costs across a broader spectrum of business units.

No TV company in acting in its own interest (rather than the public's) will air this, because it's a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

If Kerry wants fair media coverage, he should support the elimination of regulation on the broadcast industry. That ain't gonna happen, and will drive some to Nader, so this story stays online, until it gets too big to ignore.
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wurzel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #214
227. Kerry should support the elimination of regulation of broadcasting?
Do you mean this?
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #208
233. Ratings bring in advertisements and $$$
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Karla in Ohio Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
187. Print outlets are good choices
for disseminating this story. A big paper like the Houston Chronicle (right in Bush Country) might run with it, which would result in the story getting picked up by the national media.

I sent a link to the HC; we'll see if they bite. Bill Maher was an inspired choice, though. And it needs to go to Air America, which is where I'll be going after I send this message to y'all.

Thanks Walt...it IS a story. I hope it gets picked up.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
4. Original Air Force History Support Organization Email w/headers
X-Apparently-To: waltstarr@yahoo.com via 206.190.38.188; Thu, 26 Aug 2004 03:48:53 -0700
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From: "AFHSO Research" <afhso.research@pentagon.af.mil > Add to Address Book
To: "Walter Starr" <waltstarr@yahoo.com >
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Dear Mr Starr:

147th Fighter Interceptor Group AFOUA 1 Oct 73-30 Sep 75 DAFSO GB 164/77

111 Fighter Interceptor Squadron AFOUA 1 Oct 73-30 Sep 75 DAFSO GB 164/77




-----Original Message-----
From: Walter Starr <mailto:waltstarr@yahoo.com >
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 4:29 PM
To: AFHSO Research
Subject: Looking for some information


Hello,

I am trying to determine dates for all awards of the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award to the 147th Fighter Intercept Wing (formerly the 147th Fighter Intercept Group) and the 111th fighter Intecept Squadron. These organizations are part of the Texas National Guard.

Is there any way I can get this informaiton from you?

Walter E. Starr
XXXXXXXXX, XX
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Ducks In A Row Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. great work
sent to drudge, not that he'll report it. ha ha ha ha ha
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gardenista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Great work, Walt!
Do you think he stole it from Poppy's dresser drawer? We all know how he likes to play dress-up.
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
7. go for it Walt,
I think you're on to something here.

Fight back we must.

You have the temerity for details that many of us so severely lack.

Will pass this on.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. This was a 100% Internet based Story
The story behind this story is quite interesting. It all started on Saturday, August 21 when I began trying to compare Kerry's military awards to Bush's. When looking into Bush's I quickly found that something didn't add up.

Over the course of less than a week, it developed into a scandalous report of a president (famous for smearing Vietnam Veterans) who while serving in the Texas Natinal Guard wore an award he did not earn.

Every last bit of information came via the internet. I found using the telephone was simply not quick enough.

This is the new media, folks. The means of quickly researching this sort of story exists and is open to everybody. Participatory journalism will be the wave of the future.

Pat yourselves on the back, DUers, you kept me honest with this and forced me to dot my "i's" and cross my "t's".
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PDittie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
121. No, Walt, you and you alone
are the man.

:headbang:
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
190. Walt---been lurking mostly along with you guys since your first
post on this. You are the hero of a lot of us. Yeah, we thought about and critiqued, but you did it. I think we should nominate Mr. Starr for internet investigting news god of 2004, or some such. Congrats and heartfelt thanks!
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
10. Walt Starr - shining brightly!
thank you for all of your hard work and determination. :thumbsup:
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Ducks In A Row Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. sent to hardball and countdown
the more of us who email them, the more likely they'll air it.
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Rosco T. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
13. What would be the PENALTY for doing this??? n/m
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SotarrTheWizard Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
119. Not meaning to be a wet sponge here. . .
. . . but I served in a unit that got the Outstanding Unit Award. . . and it did NOT show up on MY DD-214. . . I think it only lists INDIVIDUAL decorations, not unit ones, but I've been out of the USAF for 15 years. . . personally, I think linkage between Bush and the not-so-swifties is far more damning. . .

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #119
124. Then you could provide documentation you served in that unit
and the Air Force History Support Organization could verify your unit received the award while you were assigned to the unit.

Unfortunately for Bush, his unit didn't.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #119
135. It doesn't matter
the picture is taken at the wrong time for him to have it and that unit didn't even EARN that award until 1973. In other words, there's no way he could have been wearing it legit in that picture.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
14. Which cable news network will break this story?
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Chichiri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
15. One tiny thing, and please prove me wrong here . . .
Bush was discharged on 1 October 1973, the same date that the time period of the AFOUA began. Does that mean that Bush's service and the AFOUA time period overlapped by one day? If so, couldn't Bush have received the AFOUA for that one day of service?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. The award would not have been given out until after September 30, 1975
So he could never have legitimately worn the award while in uniform.
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Chichiri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thank you.
I will contact my local media immediately.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
52. The picture itself predates the legitimate award anyway
Even if boosh had been authorized to wear it for the one day overlap in 1973, the photo was taken 1969-1970.

The unit hadn't won the award then.

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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #52
98. How do you know that?
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Willy Mugobeer Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
53. GW was nowhere near his unit on 1 October 1973...
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 08:27 PM by Willy Mugobeer

here it is: http://www.awolbush.com/deserter.html

Bush asked for discharge from the TANG on 9/5/73 and then headed for Harvard Biz school. He didn't hang around long enough to receive word that his request had been accepted, in other words ... "after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away permanently..."

which makes him GUILTY of desertion according to the Texas Code of Military Justice, Section 432.130. (Yeah, I know the links are broken...I'll fix them ASAP...)

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
16. The Chicago Tribune is aware of this
It's been sent to Salon as well.

Get the word out. Blast the media. The people need to know that a president who sinks to the low of questioning documented awards of our veterans did not conduct himself as an officer and a gentleman while he served in the Texas Air National Guard.
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. Great work, Walt.
What do you think the Tribune is going to do with it?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. They are vetting it
It could be published this weekend.
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Keeping fingers crossed.
Thanks for the info.
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Ducks In A Row Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. oh yeah, NOW they're being ethical and vetting a story
I so hope they get scooped.
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senseandsensibility Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #27
47. Woo-hoo!
I'm proud of you! :toast:
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
17. GO WALT!
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
19. I don't understand part of this
Aren't these pictures both of W. You mention George HW Bush and then W. :shrug:
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. The picture is posted on his father's presidential library website.
:evilgrin:
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cally Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
72. Thanks, I understand now
:dunce:

Thanks all for the explanations.
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nyhuskyfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. HW was mentioned just because his library has the picture
He has only a bit role in this story.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Picture of W that was in Daddy's Presidential library...
Citing the location of where the photo came from helps to shut up the naysayers who think the photo must be doctored because their perfect leader would never do such a dishonest thing.
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sub.theory Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
25. Kicked
Nice work Walt!

Kicked
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imax2268 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. Hey walt...
I heard on Mike Malloy's show that when BushCo was running for congress that he had a section that stated he was "in the Air Force"...did you hear about that one...?

anyway...great work...great work...I'm sending it out to a few places here in AZ...
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
28. I think you really need to know the exact date of the photo...
The above photograph had to have been taken some time between his qualifying as a pilot in 1969 and his promotion to First Lieutenant on November 7, 1970.

What is this based on...?

Here's what they will say...

"The picture was taken Oct 1, 1973. Bush was discharged that same day the unit received the award..."

But that still stinks because it looks like the award was given to the Unit just so Bush - who was about to leave - could look good in a photo op...(and presumably on down the line) And have something to make it look like he did something in TANG...

Now - who - just who - might have that kind of influence...???
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nyhuskyfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. He is a second lieutenant in that picture
And the award wouldn't have been issued until 1975.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. The award came after September 30, 1975
There is absolutely no way he could have legitimately worn the award while in uniform. The award is never given until after the last date of the time period covered by the award, usually several months later.

This is part of the reason why John Kerry was issued a DD215. It added several unit awards and corrected another.
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. I maintain that the lack of a clear date is a weakness...
...not trying to cut up your fine work...but I think we really need to know...
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #45
66. Does the haircut tell anyting about the photo date?
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #66
70. He is identified as a 2nd Lt in the photo
He was promoted to 1st Lt. in Nov 1970.

Why would someone have a photo taken of himself at a lower rank than he was at the time and wear a ribbon he couldn't have earned until after he was at the higher rank?

Ergo, he fucking lied.


TG
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:00 PM
Response to Reply #70
83. What identifies him as 2nd L?
I need more than that scribble on the corner of the one pic...
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #83
145. Um, I'm not clear here
You want to know if anything about the HAIRCUT can definitively date the photograph, but the date written on it as posted by the Bush administration in their document dump isn't good enough?

:eyes:
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #145
206. You trust Bush ehhh?
Yes - the HAIRCUT - their are probably regulations about haircuts...

Sorry - something scribbled in the corner of a FAX doesn't cut it...that could have been scribbled on there in the past year.

What is the conclusive proof of the photo date?
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #206
209. The date of the photo is mostly irrelevant.
Edited on Fri Aug-27-04 09:29 AM by TacticalPeak
If I'm following this right, at NO TIME during aWol's term of service was he authorized to wear this ribbon.

Never ever.

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #206
211. At NO time during bush's time of service was he eligible to....
Edited on Fri Aug-27-04 09:17 AM by Spazito
wear that second ribbon. bush was discharged in 73, BEFORE the ribbon was given to the unit which would have been in 75. Here is the reason, taken from Walt's initial post:

IAW AF Instruction 36-2803, THE AIR FORCE AWARDS AND DECORATIONS PROGRAM

All assigned or attached people who served with a unit during a period for which a unit award was awarded are authorized the appropriate ribbon ****if they directly contributed to the mission and accomplishments of the unit.****

Additionally, there isn't a "temporary" wear of AF Outstanding Unit Awards for AF personnel.

So to finally solve the mystery of the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award, I contacted the Air Force History support Organization. I requested all dates of all awards of the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award received by the 147th Fighter Intercept Group and the 111th Fighter Intercept Squadron. The answer I received was shocking. This unit had received this award only once. The dates of the award are as follows quoting directly from the source at the AFHSO:

147th Fighter Interceptor Group AFOUA 1 Oct 73-30 Sep 75 DAFSO GB 164/77

111 Fighter Interceptor Squadron AFOUA 1 Oct 73-30 Sep 75 DAFSO GB 164/77

This states explicitly that the units received the Air force Outstanding Unit Award for the time period from October 1, 1973 to September 30, 1975. George W. Bushs discharge date from the 111th FIS and the 147th FIG was October 1, 1973. Clearly, these units did not receive an award of the AFOUA until after George W. Bush had been discharged, and well after the date the photograph in question was taken.

(**** added by me for emphasis)
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #70
102. Thanks for the help.
I have been wondering the same exact thing. The 1st Lt. is a higher rank than the 2nd right?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #102
108. Yes, 1LT is a higher rank than 2LT n/t
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
32. I nominated this thread, Walt.
Love ya!
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. good idea. Me too n/t
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
34. My hope is that this will spur the media to pressure Bush into releasing
all his military records. :evilgrin:
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Mine too!
Believe me, mine too!
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Media question for you....
Are we just all sending this out to random media sources or is there some sort of method to the madness?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Send it to media people you know
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 08:21 PM by Walt Starr
Send it to media people you don't know.

It needs to get out there. The more that read it the more likely it'll get picked up.

The facts are all there. Heck, if you look at the headers on the Air Force History Support Organization, you'll notice that email flowed to me through Pentagon servers!
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. sounds great...I'll do what I can!
I'm very happy you did all this Walt. :hug:
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
114. When the media doesn't pick this up...
...don't blame it on a right-wing conspiracy or censorship enforced by the administration. The reason it won't get picked up is this: it's really not that impressive.

Walt, I've been nay-saying this story since I found it. I'm not saying that your research is in any way incorrect or inaccurate. Rather, I just don't think it is that big of a deal.

I live in Texas, in Bush territory. Now, if I felt I could show someone this thread to my Bush-backer coworkers and make them swallow real hard and mutter, "Uh-oh...." then I think you would have something. But I really don't think this discovery of yours is going to turn anyone away from Bush.

The Bush-backers will stick with their man, and the undecideds are more worried about issues than past military records (which is why the Swift Boat thing isn't very damaging either).

If I had to sum up my reaction to this discovery in two words, it would be:

So what?


It reconfirms our opinion of him: Bush is a dweeb and a loser. But to be important, it has to be strong enough to turn people away from Bush, and it just plain isn't.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Walt, but this isn't earth shattering stuff.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #114
115. And if the media DOES pick it up, will you retract your statement?
On a new thread?
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #115
128. If the media picks it up,
I will gladly eat crow on a new thread.

I will even admit that Walt is right.

But for the record, I'm thinking major daily or network, not a minor web news service. Is that fair?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #114
118. You could be right. You could be wrong. Only time will tell
The facts have been laid out. We'll see.

:shrug:
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #118
127. Why does the Air Force hate America?
:)

I pity the misunderestimators. Super congratulations!

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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #118
134. Fair enough.
We'll see.

Even if I doubt how much it will impact the race, it is a good piece of work.
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #114
122. Well, there you go Walt. Paul_H says "So what"?
Obviously you're wasting your time and should stop this nonsense immediately. :eyes:
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #114
142. Here's why it's important
if the smearies weren't telling lies about Kerry and his medals, you would probably be right, bush supporters would just shrug and say "well, you know, he was young, but he's found JESUS now!"

Etc etc.

BUT. In light of the BIG deal that has been made out of KERRY'S service, this is now a germane topic, is it not?

AND the biggest audience this will hit with is veterans. My husband is a veteran and I asked him what it means to a veteran to know of a fellow service member wearing a ribbon they didn't earn.

He told me of a buddy of his who "decided" to wear Ranger tabs on his uniform (Army). He narrowly escaped a court martial over it and lost all his buddies. He was shunned, so to speak.

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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #142
147. Yeah, but 30 years and many regulation changes later,
there can be enough of a doubt as to whether Bush thought he was doing the right thing that his backers will not be fazed.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #147
159. I don't think so
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 11:48 PM by Moonbeam_Starlight
I mean, yes, of course, there are plenty of people out there who would vote for boosh if he were standing on the White House lawn wearing only dress socks and a pink tutu, eating toddler fingers and singing "How Dry I Am". Of course.

BUT....this case, as far as I can see, is airtight. I've even been checking out all the links in his webliography, etc. I've been talking to vets about it, double-checking. And now I'm trying to find out what the repurcussions are for doing something like this so we can get an idea of how major it is/was.

Do you know any veterans? They take this stuff VERY seriously and this isn't just some guys saying they were kinda sorta in the same country at the same time and heard some things, this is hard evidence.

Not only that, this could very well make SOME journalists get nosey about the rest of his records....being punked by a guy who isn't even a journalist and all.....
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #159
169. And I've talked to a few vets here in Texas,
....one of which claimed he saw the AF reg on temporary wearing of ribbons back in the 70's. Condidering the AF is an off-shoot of the Army, could it be possible that they were still adhering, officially, to Army regs in the 70's?

Then it just becomes a case of whether the unit won the award prior to Bush's time there. According to Walt, it didn't, but there was anectdotal evidence from a unit web page or something like that that said they won it in '66. Are the records kept well enough, and are all the units (and their histories) documented well enough to establish for sure that there is no rational explanation for Bush's wearing of the medal?

I know Walt has done a lot of digging, but the significance of his findings could be debunked if others in his unit during the same time frame were also wearing the ribbon.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #169
173. I'm in Texas, as well
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #37
48. Great work Walt!
I am sending to Helen Thomas!

(I don't know her but have her email addy)
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sub.theory Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
39. That's what I hope as well
There are more than a few unanswered questions about Bush's time in the National Guard. There is no way they can hope to ignore or bury this after the smear they just tried on John Kerry. Where's your records George?! Prove you earned that medal!
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
36. Kick!
:kick:
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
38. Congrats Walt......
Now to get it out there. It's too bad our national media blaster isn't ready yet. I forgot how to do google prison.....
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AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
42. You have done our country Proud Walt Star!
I wish there were an award we could put you in for! Long live Democracy!

:toast: :yourock:
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Mad As Hell Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. Walt Starr rocks.
:yourock: Guess who I saw crossing the street in DC today? MAX CLELAND! We gave each other the thumbs up and then I got to shake his hand and thank him for what he was doing for our country. He looks ready for anything. Healthy as could be. Max Cleland rocks too.
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AmerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #51
69. Go Max!
:toast:
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #51
71. You must be Jazzed! Max is such a
Hero.. who got tarnished and is coming back Stronger!

I can't wait to see what Kerry has in mind for him in his Admin.
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
44. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Will take the cable stations a
little while to run this - they will have to get their lying talking heads in-studio and all "liared up".
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tandot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
46. This is great.
:yourock:

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EarlG ADMIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
50. Sounds like a job for the new Media Blaster!
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #50
87. I just tried to use it and my e-mail got stuck in send
I didn't have bcc so I put it in to:
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
54. Great job Walt!
I can see your own web site. The Starr Report! :D

Hope the media picks up on this.

We should send it to TDS also...

RL
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
55. Folks, my wife has put up with me doing research every night all week
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 08:29 PM by Walt Starr
I'm now leaving the house and taking her out to dinner. We'll make sure we eat something with Heinz Ketchup on it.

I'll catch up on this thread later tonight.
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Willy Mugobeer Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #55
61. Get used to it, Walt...
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 08:31 PM by Willy Mugobeer
...once you sink your teeth in this story, there's no letting go... :yourock:
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #55
86. Oh great! You had to be married! The good ones are always taken.
:-)
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
57. Has anyone toyed with this idea: Bush's discharge paperwork is phoney...
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 08:31 PM by Junkdrawer
and backdated.

I've always thought the Alabama story was a ruse. My bet is Dubya's discharge was repaired in good ole Texas. Alabama is just to throw us off the real trail.
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #57
75. Yes
I personally think someone else's old papers were used and altered later before he ran for Gov of Texas (which would explain the weird boxes like marital staus that were censored on his discharge papers)

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #75
82. He went AWOL as a First Lt. in 1972.
He's photographed as a Second Lt. wearing an award that was issued in 1975.

And the certain conclusion is that he was photographed in 1969-1970 wearing a phony ribbon to inflate his importance?

That's the most charitable way of looking at it.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #82
109. Walt: I posted a fuller version of the theory here:
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Carni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #57
76. Yes
I personally think someone else's old papers were used and altered later before he ran for Gov of Texas (which would explain the weird boxes like marital staus that were censored on his discharge papers)

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ezekiel333 Donating Member (507 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #57
90. Yep
Lots of weird stuff in his military paperwork that just doesn't add up, of course the same could be said for his DMV record, and indeed his life in general. Lots of fuzzy areas with simplistic explanations, again like the man himself.
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
58. Congragulations on a wonderful job!!
{Don t get mad, get even} is a great saying!

And you put your energy to work in a terrific way!!
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snippy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
59. Awesome work. The White House probably will warn the media
not to go with this story, but the documentation is persuasive. I hope it at least generates another series of Bush lies. It would be hilarious to hear Bush himself try to explain this.

This reminds me of the question of Bush wearing Naval Aviator's wings when he attended the Carrier Costume Party. Does anyone know whether that was determined to be appropriate?
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tishaLA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:30 PM
Response to Original message
60. Great work, Walt!
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
62. Walt, you rock with the best of 'em!
:yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock: :yourock:




This is just so kewl!

The best part is that I am reading this thread and writing this reply while listening to John Kerry's 1971 Foreign Relations Committee testimony on C-SPAN.




Tansy Gold, proud to "know" Walt Starr
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Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
63. Great investigative work, Walt!
Glad you're with 'Democratic Underground Citizens For Truth'!
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
64. Is Pitt in the house??? Certainly he could write up a good article
:)
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #64
73. I think Walt can write his own
and do a damn fine job of it.

:D
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #73
184. Indeed
and I'll be thrilled to publish it.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
67. Great job Walt
Shame that our "liberal" media has forgotten how to do investigative reporting.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
68. Great Job Walt!
n/t
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
74. Awesome work. Nommed for the homepage.
Enjoy your evening out, you've more than earned it.

Downright inspirational, you are!

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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
77. Just used the dU Media Blaster
Thanks for all your work, Walt. And to DUers who worked on the Blaster.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #77
172. Me too
I hit all 50 states for TV and Daily News
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GreatCaesarsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
78. i wonder why he's not wearing national defense ribbon?
that's a strange photo. when one gets a picture taken in uniform, the rank is usually clearly visible. in this picture, his rank is vague.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. i wonder why he's not wearing the Chimperer's Gawd Ribbon?
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #78
85. According to the discussion in Walt's original thread
boosh was never eligible for the National Defense Service Medal.

Regs require a certain amount of time OTHER THAN LIMITED TRAINING PERIODS to be served on active duty. boosh never served sufficient active duty time for NDSM.
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GreatCaesarsGhost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. i got mine in boot camp in 1969
his records say he received one. makes one wonder if he's wearing his own uniform.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #89
93. According to the docs Walt posted at the beginning of this thread
the NDSM is only mentioned in the "military biography," not in any of the official military documents.

In the original thread, he explores this issue further -- that boosh did not have sufficient active duty time to qualify for NDSM, that it does not appear on his official records, and he is not wearing it in this photograph.

My hubby also received NDSM in boot camp. I suspect -- but have no official confirmation for this -- that based on the regs Walt posted yesterday, those who enlisted in active service would have received NDSM more or less as a matter of course; those who enlisted in reserves or NG would not have received NDSM until completion of appropriate active duty. But I could be wrong.
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PegDAC Donating Member (906 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #85
247. National Defense Service Medal
:dem: Minimum service time for the medal was three years. It's not given any more.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
79. I did MSNBC shows and Margaret Cho
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yellowdawg Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
80. Why should this surprise us?
. . . for 3 years he has worn a presidency that he didn't earn.

YD
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:21 PM
Response to Original message
88. BTW: Great job Walt...
Even if I do think you're being charitable... ;)
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
91. Thank You, Walt!
This was great to come home to today!

Keep up the great work and enjoy the fame! My hat's off to you, pal!

:yourock:

Cyn :)
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
92. Kick
:kick: for an AWESOME investigative job!
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
94. 2
cool
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
95. Excellent work, Walt!
I cannot wait to read this in the Chicago Trib! They BETTER run with it! Great Job!

:toast:
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HuskerDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
96. SEND IT TO OBERMAN
This kind of thing seems right up his alley.
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michigandem2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #96
97. what about NYT???
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rob-ok-vin Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
99. Great Job Walt
Youve worked long and hard on this and it has paid off very well.
Very good work.
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
100. Tonight's Cowboy Movie: "HE WORE A YELLOW RIBBON"
Brock-brock, buck-uk, braaaak!

Miles Glorioso: the braggart warrior, a staple of ancient comedy. Commander Codpiece and the Chickenhawk squadron fly again!
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:22 PM
Response to Original message
103. kick!
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Doosh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
104. what happened to that unibrow?
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imax2268 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #104
105. Hey Walt...
I posted it on Mike Malloy's forum...hope that's ok...
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
106. Kudos and Salutations from a DU Newbie...
Thanks for standing up for what's right! :thumbsup:
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
107. Bill Maher? -- show's on Friday night
Terrific piece of investigative journalism, Walt.

Sincere thanks.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #107
111. Bill Maher....great idea n/t
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
110. So when will all the one hit wonders show up in this thread???
I feel like laughing at them so I hope they show up soon and say something stupid like the photo was doctored or it's some sort of conspiracy. lol
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Doosh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #110
112. clearly we are all communists who hate America
:)
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #110
113. I saw some earlier in the day.
They have been playing it very cool. This has made them nervous. They don't say enough to get banned. They just ask questions.
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Fleshdancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #113
116. I saw them too! Pretty funny stuff.
It might take them a few days to get here though. They're probably trying to find the other thread. Poor things. :)
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #110
117. Okay, I'm a one-hit wonder (a newbie, anyway)...
...and I'll chip in my two cents:

This is not an impressive enough find to turn people away from Bush. People who like Bush will stick with him, and undecideds are not going to decide over a ribbon that maybe was incorrectly worn 30 years ago.

It's a nice little tidbit, but it isn't going to change the outcome of the election.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #117
123. This does two things....
points out bush's hypocrisy in supporting the Swifties attacks on Kerry's medals and it opens up the question, again, of his service, or rather, his lack of service. I think the media will check out Walt's research and, if accurate as I believe it is, will start doing something with it.
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #123
132. Is it in Kerry's best interest....
...to keep harping on the Swifties?

If this comes out it will look like Kerry is just trying to play catch-up. And besides, Bush is "officially" backing away from the Swifties (although he is doing so by criticizing all 527's). The Swifties got their shot in, but they are about done. They cannot buy advertising time during the last 60 days of the campaign. So in about a week, they go silent.

And when they do, it will look like it happened under Bush's influence to the common person. He condemned the 527's this week, and they disappear next week. People will say, "Ooh, he really changed that quick!" In the meantime, he got their use out of them.

I vote Democratic, but living among the enemy here in Texas, I've started to learn how the other side perceives things.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #132
137. Ahh, but this is not Kerry, this is a private citizen that has done an...
awesome investigative job on bush and HIS service. Re bush backing away, until he condemns the ads and wants them taken off the air, he has done NO backing away.

Those who HAVE earned their ribbons and medals will NOT take this lightly at all.
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #137
151. Ahhhh....
But Bush had "nothing" (wink, wink) to do with the Swifties. They are, of course, not related to the Bush campaign (wink, wink).
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #151
160. LOL but you and I and 56% of the American public know different...
according to the latest poll and that's what counts re the Swifties. Walt had done great work and I suspect it has made some right wing people very nervous and that is good, so it should.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #132
146. This isn't about the swifties. It's about Bush's sorry ass.
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rocktivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #132
148. As long as the Smear Boaters commercials run
Kerry has every reason to raise questions about Bush's military past. Aside from his AWOL/deserter issues, he's stated that he served in the Air Force when he was actually in the Air National Guard, and that he joined the Guard to avoid ducking bullets in Viet Nam. And let's not forget his smears against the military records of McCain and Cleland. This medal business is the ribbon that ties up a very unattractive package, because it speaks to his lack of character and his unfitness to serve as commander-in-chief. Besides, it will be a fun way to amuse ourselves during RNC Convention week!

:headbang:
rocknation
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #117
125. It's a matter of honor and honesty
Any member of the military should never wear anything they didn't rightfully earn.

It's completely dishonorable and dispicable for any person to do.

Others may not care, but I can guarantee you the military will. In fact, I promise you, it will matter to them.

Cyn :)
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #125
143. When has Bush ever been about Honor and Integrity (TM)?
Edited on Fri Aug-27-04 12:06 AM by Paul_H
He claims the high moral ground and gets away with it cuz he doesn't get blowjobs in the Oval Office, but if you look at the way he has handled himself all along*, he is despicable. But he keeps his manhood in his pants (or maybe Laura keeps it in a drawer in the nightstand), and that's all the God-fearin' Bible thumpers seem to care about.


*The Honor And Integrity of George Bush:

- Largest contributor to his campaign for Texas governor was Enron, a company he showed no oversight of during his tenure as governor, resulting in one of the biggest corporate collapses in history.

- Selected a VP candidate from the same state he is from (according to Cheney's Homestead Exemption on his Dallas home), which means that electoral voters from Texas should not have been able to vote for both (See Amendment XII of the Constitution).

- Did not ask his Florida Campaign Director (Katherine Hughes) to recuse herself during the Florida recount despite the blatant conflict of interest.

- Abused the 9/11 tragedy to direct the country into a war with Iraq, a war that was planned long before 9/11/01. In the process, squandered the good will of the international community, bringing our nation to near-outcast status.

- Need I even mention Halliburton contracts? Prisoner abuse?


The point being that after Clinton (whose Oval Office affair had no direct impact on the governance of the nation), the standard of Honor and Integrity for many people is whether a guy can keep his zipper up.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #143
215. But his image to his faithful is "Mr. Honor and Integrity"
Sure, WE recognize he's a lying dirtbag, but how many people have you met who don't pay close attention to politics believed (or just absorbed) his "restore honor and integrity to the White House" line just because he said so and the media was too busy with Al Gore's "earth tones" to air the facts that would show otherwise.

This is no magic arrow to slay the dragon, but it's ammo. There are still too many people out there who will still give Bush the benefit of the doubt unless there's an in-your-face personal example, like Clinton's finger-wagging denial about Lewinsky. All those other things are filtered through other people and lets them deny it about Bush, but here he's just sitting there, plain as day, wearing a ribbon he didn't earn -- and you might be surprised by how many people get ticked off when someone tries to puff up their bio by claiming some unearned honors (it's part of what the Not-so-SwiftBoat Liars for Bush are trying to claim Kerry did).

One drip is not a flood, but a steady stream of them can wear down the highest mountain.
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Texas_Dem Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #117
126. It is all in the timing
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 10:59 PM by Texas_Dem
and how Bush handles the revelation. (which is almost guaranteed to be handled poorly). Also, once that door opens who knows what else falls out of the closet.

THAT will affect voters.
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sub.theory Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #117
129. Fine, that's your take...
You've had your say and you're on the record thinking that this is all no big deal. I would totally disagree. This is bad news for the Bush camp. They've been screaming for the last two weeks that John Kerry didn't deserve medals that were fully documented AND supported by several eye witnesses. Now Bush is caught wearing a ribbon for which no documentation exists. You don't think that's a little, I dunno, hypocritical? The only way Bush can prove he deserves this award is if he releases his full military records, which might prove highly embarrassing if it turns out he never bothered to finish his term of service in the TANG. Nope, this is bad, bad news for Bush. It opens up plenty of questions and once again brings his character into question - not to mention his fitness to be the man who orders other servicemen and women into combat.

Walt's already contacted serveral high profile news organizations and they all seem interested in his work. Why don't you just wait and see what happens before shooting your mouth off anymore?
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #129
175. Yes, I've had my say....
Edited on Fri Aug-27-04 12:15 AM by Paul_H
"It opens up plenty of questions and once again brings his character into question"

His character has always been in question; see my Post 143 above. For some reason, none of that matters as long as there's no White House Nookie.

"Why don't you just wait and see what happens before shooting your mouth off anymore?"

Because, frankly, what fun would a discussion group be without a villain???

:evilgrin:

Besides, I think there's been a whole lot of shooting off of mouths from Walt's supporters. I think their glee is overexuberant at this point, even if this does hit the presses later. I'm saving my glee for Election Day when Bush goes down in flames!
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sub.theory Donating Member (293 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #175
197. I think you're missing the point
"His character has always been in question; see my Post 143 above. For some reason, none of that matters as long as there's no White House Nookie."

Look, I don't think anyone here believes this is some sort of silver bullet, but make no mistake, it *is* ammo. This just shines the spotlight back on Bush's undeniable character flaws. It reinforces everything that's been said about him: he's a liar, he's a cheater, and he can't be trusted. Voters know this. You're kidding yourself if you don't think Bush has been taking a beating on credibility and trust (without a sex scandal in sight). Reference here. The American voter is alot smarter than you given him and her credit for. Who's really to blame here is the media, but as Walt Starr has already made known that doesn't seem to be an issue this time, as several organizations have expressed interest. But, you're right - time will tell.

"Besides, I think there's been a whole lot of shooting off of mouths from Walt's supporters. I think their glee is overexuberant at this point, even if this does hit the presses later. I'm saving my glee for Election Day when Bush goes down in flames!"

Well, can you blame them? It's been a miserable past two weeks and John Kerry and the whole Democratic Party have just survived a furious smear campaign. Walt Starr took it upon himself to look into something that no one else has, and he came up with some great findings. He deserves to be proud of himself and DU deserves a little celebration.

"Because, frankly, what fun would a discussion group be without a villain???"

Taking an unpopular stance is all fine and good, but I do hope you aren't just being a contrarian.
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #197
251. No, I don't think I'm just being a contrarian.
It's just that the tone of some people sounds like they are treating this like the "silver bullet". You're right, it is ammunition, but it's not enough to sink Bush. There have been many worse revelations that he has rode out.

As for how smart the American voter is, I hope you're right. But living deep ina heart Texas, I can only go by what I see around me.

I have a different perspective on the Swift Boat thing; you mention a "miserable two weeks" and I see Kerry gaining ground in battleground states, even as measured on right-wing sites.

The critical thing is whether Bush will get any bounce from the convention. If he comes out flat, stick a fork in 'im cuz he's done.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #117
130. You could always test the theory that this is no big deal
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 11:21 PM by Walt Starr
Get ahold of a POW medal, put it on, and walk into a room full of uniformed servicemen. When they ask you about it (and they will) tell them you didn't earn it, but you thought it was pretty so you decided you would wear it.

The Air Force Outstanding Unit Award is always placed higher than the POW Medal in the Pyramid of Honor. There is more prestige associated with the AFOUA than the POW Medal.

Think about it.
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npincus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #130
157. Issue your own press release(?)
Walt, I've got an idea... don't know if it's screwy, BUT, if it looks like the media is not picking up your story (ideally it should come out before or during the GOP convention) then how about issuing your own press release? Write it up yourself (it's cheaper), then use a press release service- I used a good one several years ago when I launched a (now defunct) e-business; their URL is http://www.ereleases.com . It's not so cheap, unfortunately. Maybe if they hate Bush, they'll donate their services.
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eleny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #117
131. You can get pecked to death by ducks, too
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #117
136. Molehiles become mountains depending on the weather
Rome was not built in a day.
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #117
139. It's another piece of the character mosaic.
In the military I knew a couple of this type who would wear ribbons they were not authorized to wear. They were complete losers who habitually told preposterous lies trying to impress people. Caricatures at best.

He's gotta do something when all he's got is name recognition.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #117
141. Depends on whether Bush is asked about it.
If so, it will be big. People remember Admiral Boorda committing suicide over it. IIRC, Michael Isikoff of Newsweek is the one who hounded Boorda about wearing unearned awards until Boorda finally committed suicide in disgrace. If Bush is asked about it, it will be a story, whether he confirms it or denies it.

This is great work by Walt Starr!

Is Lloyd Bentsen III a Democrat? According to most stories on Bush's service, Bentsen was promoted to 1st Lt. at the same time as Bush. They were in the same champagne unit. They would have the same unit award I would think.

I googled on it for a while but couldn't find any pictures of Bentsen in uniform.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #141
158. For those who may not be familiar with Admiral Boorda:
At the White House, President Clinton praised Boorda, the first enlisted sailor in the history of the Navy to rise to its top position, as a man of "extraordinary energy, dedication and good humor."

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/borda.htm

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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #141
161. I actually thought about that too...
...it might be better for Kerry if this whole issue lies dormant until the debates, and when Bush questions Kerry's Purple Hearts, Kerry can have a copy of the picture handy and ask him whether or not he actually earned all of his medals.

It could still be contained by damage control, however, if it turns out the unit received the award prior to Bush being there and he can claim he was told to wear it by a superior officer.

Come on, with the stuff Bush has already dealt with and managed to spin to his advantage, do you really think he couldn't handler this? The slimeball is more slippery than we give him credit for.
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AVID Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #117
152. I agreee
This - like Iraq, Florida, Plame, Haliburton, Jobs, MedicareRx lie, Florida, prison torture, proven smears, extreme judges, unemployment, lies, lies, lies - will be ignored by media, blinded by religous right ideology, and sink like Kerry in Oct. This Admin will do ANYTHING to win . . . and win they will. I'm sad, but I believe it.
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molly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
133. Good JOB!!
I am watching the reply of Hardball and it looks like they are going down-hard. Keep up the GREAT work!
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markses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
138. My Questions: If yer gonna wear a fake ribbon, why an AFOUA, and where'd
he get it?

I don't really follow this, prolly from lack of knowledge. Why would he put that particular ribbon on for that photo? And where do ya get the ribbons?

Could it be a case of "I hafta go take a picture: Gimme another ribbon so my uniform looks better!"

Call me ignant.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #138
140. You can get any ribbon or medal you want
Ever hear of Military Surplus stores?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #140
144. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #140
149. I was jeeest about to say that
in fact, I'm sure my husband's Purple Heart has been snatched up in a surplus store somewhere, since a medic took it off his hospital gown while he was too drugged up on meds to be able to even find the buzzer when the guy took off with it.

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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #138
154. "I hafta go take a picture: Gimme another ribbon..."
Actually, yeah, why not? Makes sense to me. I wonder if poppy had one of these ribbons that he gave to his idiot son for the pic, just so it looked better and he had more ribbons. He's an entitled little shit, what the hell does he care if he wears a ribbon he didn't earn?
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #154
163. Hmmmm
did poppy ever get this ribbon???
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #154
170. My thinking is..
since the 147th earned an AFOUA in 1967 (iirc), Bush may have "borrowed" one from someone else in his unit, someone who had actually been around when they earned it.
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juajen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #138
194. Perhaps to fool his father, who had gone to a lot of trouble
pulling strings and all, to get him in the tang. Where do most of these photos go? To mommy, daddy, girlfriends, etc. Maybe that's why it ended up in the GHWB's library.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
150. LOL! Get a load of this response from a bushie:
To: Old Sarge
Let's hope so although I am sure it was photo shopped.
I am really worried about this. The leftists media will have a field day with this.--167 posted on 08/26/2004 5:11:31 PM PDT by Limbaudda

-------------

Good!
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #150
153. Where did you see this?
I didn't know the Bush Sr. Library was into photoshop.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #153
155. the freakrepublic website.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #155
162. Those losers have picked up on this?
lol
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #162
166. Yes, they lurk here all the time and admit it.
Give me a second, I'll find the link that was posted on an earlier thread by Walt.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #150
168. Here is the freakrepublik thread
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #168
171. Oh, you found it.
I'm going to bed now. Can't wait until tomorrow!
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #168
176. You know what's great about reading that thread?
I do need a shower now, but besides that, you can read what they say about things to check out then check them out. They are helping!

thanks guys!!!

Or whatever you are!

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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
156. I'm wondering about
the repurcussions if one were caught wearing a medal one didn't earn.

All I know of are Army regs, and the one to tell me about this is

AR 672-5-1.

I've had a hell of a time finding that online, though. Anyone?
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #156
164. Also
could we dig further? Did poppy ever get this medal???
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #164
174. the list of poppy's medals is easily found...
...through google. I was looking at them the other night. I don't have time to look right now, but you can easily find them. :-)
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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #156
178. So what does it say?????
I'm guessing there is no penalty for someone being discovered to have worn a ribbon they didn't earn 30 years after they wore it....
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #178
181. No
I'm not thinking of a retroactive punishment, LOL!

But if you can find what the consequences were, you can point to how serious it was.

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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #181
196. Oh, now I get your drift...
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #178
188. Maybe no penatly, but definitely no honor.
Not then. Not now.
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Career Prole Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #156
244. From the evidence I've seen
he should be brought up on a charge of "Impersonating an Officer".
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
165. Great job!
:yourock:

This will hit the mainstream like a bombshell. The SBVFT have forced the issue of medals into the public consciousness, and it's about to backfire badly for the BFEE.
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JonathanS Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
177. AF Instruction 36-2803 NOT APPLICABLE
Edited on Fri Aug-27-04 12:38 AM by JonathanS
Air Force Instructions were not used until the 1990's when AF Instruction 36-2803 replaced AFR 35-10 (Air Force Regulation 35-10) which contained the governing rules when Bush served. AFR 35-10 was based upon AR 35-10 (the corresponding Army Regulation).

In the late 1970's in both the New York Air National Guard (105th Communications Flight) and the Texas Air National Guard (254th Combat Communications Flight), I was told to wear the unit's Air Force Outstanding Unit Award (AFOUA).

So even if the regulation didn't specifically authorize it, the old Army custom was still in practice.

Guess what? I just checked my records and NONE of my unit awards are listed, only the individual ones!

Also, to see whether a unit award is authorized you have to check, not just the unit that someone was assigned to, but also its parent unit. For example, when I was in the 254th Combat Communications Flight, the 254th Combat Communications Group won the AFOUA. The award specified that it applied to the subordinate units also.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #177
179. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #179
182. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #177
180. So... you're saying
That wearing the unit award was commonly done during that time frame?
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #180
183. This unit award wasn't given until 1975, though
that picture could NOT have been taken of him in 1975, he was two years out of ANG at that point.

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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #183
185. That's the kicker
It doesn't matter what undocumented custom there is. The unit didn't even earn that ribbon until after the picture was taken.
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JonathanS Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #185
189. Picture
His boss would see the picture every six months when reviewing his records for performance reviews. If it wasn't right he would have been told to get another picure taken.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #189
191. How do you know that?
Edited on Fri Aug-27-04 12:50 AM by Bleachers7
So are you saying that the mistake was missed for the next 6 years of his military "career" and also no one else caught it because no one was following procedure? Please explain
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #189
192. Uh, no
First of all, I doubt he would have simply been told to get another picture taken. At the very LEAST he'd have a new asshole chewed for him.

Secondly you actually think those guys sit there and review the PICTURE?

It is to laugh.
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #189
193. Really?
I think any knowledgeable reviewer of aWol's available records would conclude that his service was checkered with the unroutine, and his bosses - his bosses, well, a couple are no longer with us, one does not recall ever seeing him, and, well, you get the drift. His bosses' performance was more shameful than Shrub's, if you think about it.

And that pic is not like any I ever saw in a 201 file, if that's the record reviewing you mean.

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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #189
199. How do we know this is a picture his "bosses" would even
see?

Is there anything that indicates it's an "official" TANG photograph for identification purposes that would be in his file? I'm asking, because I don't know. I was under the impression it was something less official, as it was what Poppy has on display.
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Moonbeam_Starlight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #180
186. You live in Ft. Worth, huh?
I am in the Dallas area, but on the west side (burbs) so close to Ft. Worth. I enjoy FW far more than Dallas, even though I was born in Dallas.

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Doohickie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #186
195. Don't take it personally, but
I subscribe to what it says on the back of the staff t-shirts at Railhead BBQ in Fort Worth:

"LIFE'S TOO SHORT TO LIVE IN DALLAS"

:P
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #177
198. Do you have any proof that..
AFI 36-2803 (The Air Force Awards and Decorations Program) replaced AFR 35-10?

I can only find referrences to AFI 36-2903 (Dress and Personal Appearance of Air Force Personnel) replacing AFR 35-10 (Air Force Dress Code Regulation).

I'm having a hard time understanding why the Air Force would relplace a Dress Code Regulations manual with an Awards and Decorations manual.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #177
200. This Air Force Publication..
does not seem to support your claims.

It says 36-2903 replaced 35-10.

http://www.aetc.randolph.af.mil/im/pub/afpdl/publicatio...
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #177
217. When in doubt, ask the AFPC. Here's their answer
Walter Starr, below is your initial request, and resolution. If the resolution is not sufficient please e-mail us at mailto:contact.center@randolph.af.mil or the POC below. Include your ticket number. You can also submit an update to your original request by logging into https://webcolab.afpc.randolph.af.mil/Scripts/rightnowd...

Problem : Was the AFOUA Authorized for temporary wear?
Problem Details : Was the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award ever authorized for temporary wear under AR 35-10 during the late 1960's to mid 1970's?

Resolution : The AFOUA is not a temporary award.
Resolution Details :
Contact Center Agent: : Ms. Jacqueline Holland
Agents Email Address: : mailto:jacqueline.holland@randolph.af.mil
Agents Phone Number: : Toll Free 1-800-616-3775; or DSN 665-5000

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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #217
218. And now, with headers
X-Apparently-To: waltstarr@yahoo.com via 206.190.38.180; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 06:19:54 -0700
X-Originating-IP: <131.44.121.170>
Return-Path: <afpc.dpstc@randolph.af.mil >
Received: from 131.44.121.170 (EHLO rnd-sf-03.randolph.af.mil) (131.44.121.170) by mta157.mail.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; Fri, 27 Aug 2004 06:19:53 -0700
Message-ID: <B952B6C85D68D64BAFD919F68920EF5C240112D1@fstymx47.rando... >
From: "AFPC/DPSTC Call Center" <AFPC.DPSTC@RANDOLPH.AF.MIL > Add to Address Book
To: "'waltstarr@yahoo.com'" <waltstarr@yahoo.com >
Subject: AFPC Contact Center Ticket # 040827-000014 (CIVILIAN CALL CENTER ISSUES) has been closed
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 08:19:50 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72)
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C48C38.880CE79B"
Content-Length: 1208


Walter Starr, below is your initial request, and resolution. If the resolution is not sufficient please e-mail us at mailto:contact.center@randolph.af.mil or the POC below. Include your ticket number. You can also submit an update to your original request by logging into https://webcolab.afpc.randolph.af.mil/Scripts/rightnowd...

Problem : Was the AFOUA Authorized for temporary wear?
Problem Details : Was the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award ever authorized for temporary wear under AR 35-10 during the late 1960's to mid 1970's?

Resolution : The AFOUA is not a temporary award.
Resolution Details :
Contact Center Agent: : Ms. Jacqueline Holland
Agents Email Address: : mailto:jacqueline.holland@randolph.af.mil
Agents Phone Number: : Toll Free 1-800-616-3775; or DSN 665-5000

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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
201. check your private mail, Walt (eom)
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fob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 02:39 AM
Response to Original message
202. First of all Walt, I'm glad you're on our side, what a tenacious
effort you have put forth here. I think I've read over 600 posts on your threads so far! I have one question for you when you get a chance to come back to this.

In earlier threads there were references to the 147th unit winning the AFOUA award 3 times with the first date given in 1966 and the 3rd in 1973 (I think), and now you have posted confirmation of only 1 instance of the award. A quick clean up of the details of this part of the work is the only gray area I see.

FOB
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #202
204. Those were anecdotal from web sites
The authority on the matter is the Air Force History Support Organization.
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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
203. I guess I'm the only one who thinks this is dumb?
I despise Bush as much as the next guy, but this notion is almost as dumb as the idea that Kerry "had a plan" that included self inflicted injuries so he could "get out early and run for president" 35 years later...

Bush was just a dumb young lad (actually he probably had less brain damage then) posing for a formal photo. My guess is he had on whatever little trinkets they gave you then to make you feel like your indoctrination was worth it.

If we're really desperate enough to be convinced that Bush went through the trouble to get some pins he didn't deserve to make himself look "war-ier" in this photo, then we really are in deep shit.

The notion of Bush as a poser is an attractive one, but he wouldn't have even had the plan to be a phony then. remember - all he cared about at that time was booze, coke and pussy, so much so to go AWOL to enjoy his self admitted hedonistic lifestyle.

Do you really think he was looking for a couple extra ribbons to bolster his presidential image 35 years later?

Sorry, does not compute.
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #203
205. Not the only one...
He doesn't really have a concrete date for the photo...

A lot of this conjecture is based on this statement...

The above photograph had to have been taken some time between his qualifying as a pilot in 1969 and his promotion to First Lieutenant on November 7, 1970.

Had to be - ? He needs to date this photo better.

I think the photo looks later - closer to Bush discharge date maybe even after. Maybe Bush left before the photos - then got one taken later...

Bush had short hair in another photo...



When is this on from...? Are there haircut regulations?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #205
212. That photograph would have been taken on September 4, 1968
That was the date of his commmission.
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #212
220. And you know this how?
Is this part of the induction process? Like an official photo...

Are there similar photos of other folks in Bush's Unit...?
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #220
223. JEEZ! Look at what's going on in the damn thing!
Edited on Fri Aug-27-04 11:36 AM by Walt Starr
George H.W. Bush is pinning lieutenant bars on him for criminies sake! He was commissioned on September 4, 1968. That photograph is far easier to date than the first.

In the first, he is wearing pilot's wings. George W. Bush became a qualified pilot effective on November 26, 1969 according to orders included in this document packet:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/11-2_2004_Personn...

Assuming Bush was at least legitimately wearing his pilot's wings, the photograph would have been taken after earning the wings. The photograph lists Mr. Bush as a Second Lieutenant (2LT). Assuming he didn't demote himself for the photograph, that means the photograph was taken prior to November 7, 1970.

So we have a narrow window where the photograph was taken. If we assume he would have no qualms about wearing pilot's wings when he had not earned them, then the window broadens back to September 4, 1968. Sine we see his hair was much shorter in the other picture where he had his lieutenant bars pinned on jhis should, we have to push it up a few weeks at least.
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inchhigh Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #205
216. Could he have continued to wear his pilot wings even after
missing the flight physical?
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #205
219. What a shock...helola and Must-B-Free posting in the same thread
agreeing with eachother, and trying to cast doubt on a story that reflect poorly on the military in some way. Do a search on Abu Gharib and hexola for example, for example.
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #219
221. Here they come - the FreepU'ers
Sorry - it's like 200 "Atta Boy Walt..." comments - and no thought...shit like that worrys me.

It's clear in his original post that he had not established the date of the photo in question...
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #219
222. I'm trying to increase the varacity of Walt's claims...
The date and origin of the photo doesnt seem to much to ask...
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #222
224. It seems to me that Walt has provided very good evidence of...
the time frame of the photo in question:



You will note the "Bush, George W., 2nd Lt" located at the bottom of the photo which was provided by the bush administration. I would assume that if they had had a problem with the tag on the bottom they would not have had that photo included in their release.

The above photograph had to have been taken some time between his qualifying as a pilot in 1969 and his promotion to First Lieutenant on November 7, 1970.

At no time from 1969 to Nov 7, 1970 was his unit awarded the ribbon in question that he is photographed wearing.


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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #224
228. Is there anything on his uniform that identifies his rank?
And is this an official photo - or a personal one...????
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #222
226. The photograph was taken between November 26, 1969 and November 7, 1970
Assuming he wore legitimate pilot's wings and he didn't demote himself to second lieutenant for the photograph.
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #226
229. Any clues to the origins of the photo...beyond the internet...?
Was this an official photo...or a personal one...???
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #229
231. See post 230
n/t
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #222
230. The origin of the photograph is the George H.W. Bush presidential library
web site.
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #230
232. Yes I know that -
But do you know anything beyond that?

Official photo - Does the TANG take "official photos"

Personal photo...?

If it's some photo taken for personal family reasons...then I don't think he has to be as accountable...He might have gotten it taken after he was discharged just so HW could have something for the mantle...?
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #232
235. Given that bush reached the level of 1st lieutenant....
which is higher than 2nd lieutenant, why would he pose for a picture later and have the 2nd lt tag added, therefore demoting himself lower than when he was discharged? That makes no sense.
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hexola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #235
236. When was that "2nd Lt" put on the photo/fax - ?
People make mistakes all the time...

Are those markings part of a photo sorting/ID system? Or did some dope from W's team screw up...




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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #236
238. Seeing as the photo with tag came from a release by the bush...
admin, you might want to send them an e-mail to ask.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #236
241. Bush released it in a packet in April of this year
You might want to ask Bush.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #235
239. For the sake of argument, let's assume Bush was willing to do that
Edited on Fri Aug-27-04 12:13 PM by Walt Starr
and to wear pilot's wings he had not yet earned. Hell, let's even assume he wouldn't be above posing as an officer and wearing a Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon he had not earned. That puts the date of this photograph somewhere between May 27, 1968 when he first joined the Air Guard as an airman and November 21, 1974 when he was released from ARPC.

Assuming the ribbon was awarded the first day possible that it could have been awarded, this still puts the photograph as being taken before the award because the very first day the award could have possibly been given is October 1, 1975.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #222
249. It's
V E R A C I T Y

fyi
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TacticalPeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #203
207. It's not the plan, it's the man.
Do you really think he was looking for a couple extra ribbons to bolster his presidential image 35 years later?


No, of course not. Rather, this is a character issue, as they say.

And I can understand how this could seem like trivia over trinkets to some people, but be assured it ain't trivia. For current military and veterans, it is an easily understood case of a callow cheat. This is a group we need to lean more back our way, after perhaps losing some ground during the boat flap.

Computes fine to me, but we need to see the final output.

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Kadie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #203
234. Well, I think it is a great story, if only because
of all the hub-bub the republicans gave Kerry over his ribbons.

Great story Walt. Good job.
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Pot Kettle Black Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
210. Perhaps this is the campaign commercial
This states explicitly that the units received the Air force Outstanding Unit Award for the time period from October 1, 1973 to September 30, 1975. George W. Bushs discharge date from the 111th FIS and the 147th FIG was October 1, 1973. Clearly, these units did not receive an award of the AFOUA until after George W. Bush had been discharged, and well after the date the photograph in question was taken.


Here's how I see the ad:
<Fade in>
(Eerie sinister music)
On October 1, 1973, George W. Bush was discharged from the Texas Air National Guard's 111th FTS and 147th FIG.

Freed from second Lieutenant Bush, the unit would go on to win the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award. The Award was cited for the period October 1, 1973 to Sept 30th, 1975.

Clearly, the unit became outstanding through the subtraction of George W. Bush.

Can the nation expect a smaller bounce by bouncing George W. Bush?
(cue nice guy music)
Kerry Edwards, the Johns of Justice
<fade out>

Man, I just love that the day Bush leaves, the unit he was assigned to goes on to two years of distinction, starting that day. Clearly, the first step to improvement is getting rid of Bush.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
237. With all the questions and alternate theories put out....
not ONE has been able to counter Walt's research which shows, to me, that his research can withstand extensive scrutiny and still hold up! WTG, Walt!
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TheRovingGourmet Donating Member (524 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
240. Good pictures of medals here:
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whalerider55 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
242. good work and a little help
walt...

bravo. terrific work. let's push for crossover into the "mainstream" "media".

and a little help out nthere.

i've been working on a theory about "W- the Lost Guard Months". Although i haven't had time to google it, is there anyone out there who can link me to information about W. "volunteering" at a day care center in the Houston area, or Texas in the early 70's...

just a hunch; wanna see how the dates match up.

whalerider55
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Memekiller Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
243. Keep it simple...
If you want to get this to fly in the media, you have to boil this story down to its sound bite: Bush poses for picture wearing medals his unit didn't earn until after he was discharged. Then let them get into the details.
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mccormack98 Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
245. Great work, Walt. How about a DU Press Release?
Why not release the story to the wires ourselves? Costs about $100.

Bill
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Julian English Donating Member (232 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
246. DoJ fighting release fo further Guard Records:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38452-20... >Justice Dept. Rebuffs Press Request for More Bush Guard Records

The Justice Department has told the Associated Press that the government does not possess any records that would shed further light on the mysteries of President Bush's Vietnam-era National Guard service, beyond those that have already been made public, a lawyer for the news agency said yesterday.

The Associated Press filed a lawsuit two months ago, demanding access to a microfilm copy of President Bush's entire Texas Air National Guard personnel record from an archive in Austin.

(SNIP)

In the meantime, amateur researchers are combing the public records as well, and their findings are burning up certain corners of the blogosphere. Philadelphia caterer Paul Lukasiak, for instance, believes he has unraveled the story of Bush's attempt to transfer himself to Alabama, and can prove that Bush never made up his missed training days.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
248. I've seen some questioning of what exactly the ribbons are on other sites
So, just to demonstrate I've accurately idenitfied the ribbons, here they are...

First, the Air Force Outstanding Unit Award:



Then the Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon:



And finally for grins, the second award listed in his bio, the National Defense Service Medal:



Now, I'll convert to Black and White:



and, VOILA!
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TheRovingGourmet Donating Member (524 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #248
250. Did you check them against the site I posted?
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #248
252. ??? yer kiddin me... he claimes NDSM
Really??? He claims it in his bio, but has no right to it???? Where can I see this? Geez, can I claim to have a PHD and a Nobel Peace Prize?
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #252
254. I get the AFOUA, but don't get the Nat'l Defense Award?
Can somebody clue me on the Nat'l Defense? Claimed in bio, but not earned? What is the source of the bio?? Please, sorry, thanks!
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American liberal Donating Member (915 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
253. Hi Walt--First, congrats on your great research. I read the original...
thread, then this one, then the one about a high-profile journalist taling to you last night about your research. It's been quite interesting.

Excuse me for butting in, but, WHAT HAPPENED! Who interviewed you? Is the story going mainstream? Did I miss a thread or a post that answers these questions?

I am nosy by nature and always want to know what's going on. So, PLEASE clue me in. :bounce: please? :P
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JohnDoe1 Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
255. Daily Show
Contact them. Here's the internship hiring division fax number. Maybe something can get forwarded around the office.

212-468-1890
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PfcHammer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
256.  ** BUSH MEDAL STORY FLYER **
Spread this story far & wide !

http://s93118771.onlinehome.us/DU/GWBAward.pdf
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American liberal Donating Member (915 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #256
257. I have to object to the flyer
I know your heart's in the right place, KleverKittie, and I have a lot of respect for the time Walt's spent researching what could prove to be VERY embarrassing to the shrub, BUT...

any journalist worth her (or his) salt knows that our code of ethics introduced by the Society of Professional Journalists calls for objectivity. What's missing from this potentially outstanding story is the other side's version. In the spirit of good journalism, somebody from Bush's camp has to be contacted. Even if it's only to add to the story "no comment" or "Bush representatives could not be reached for comment," or "repeated attempts to contact Bush went unanswered." Otherwise, spreading that flyer far and wide is no better than all the crap hurled at us from the other side.

Please don't misunderstand. I have a lot of respect for you, Walt, Skinner, and all the other DUers sniffing around to expose and report the truth. The potential of Internet communication among the left has barely scratched the surface. Don't ruin the medium or spoil Walt's good work by jumping the gun before all the facts have been collected.

We are smarter and all deserve better. Thanks for letting me share my 2 cents. :)

Peace,
AL
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #257
258. I agree with A L. A really good looking start, for sure...
And I appreciate having something concise to send around to folks.

To ME, the photo with the notation of 2 Lt. is more compelling, for those who have not read this whole thing. That clairfies some stuff right in the photo.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-27-04 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
259. UPDATE with additional information here:
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