I'm Just Sayin': The idiotic "Biden undercuts change" argument

[babylonsister]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/phil-trounstine/im-just-sayin-saying-bide_b_120863.html

Phil Trounstine
I'm Just Sayin': The idiotic "Biden undercuts change" argument


Posted August 23, 2008 | 05:05 PM (EST)


The most idiotic punditbabble we're heard in the wake of Barack Obama's choice of Joe Biden -- advanced by the AP's Ron Fournier, NBC's David Gregory and others as if they were channeling John McCain's talking points -- is the notion that Biden undercuts Obama's message that it's time for a change.

Exhibit A, in this silly argument, is Biden's 35 years in the United States Senate. The simplistic formulation argues that because Biden is an old hand in Washington, he undermines Obama as a standard-bearer for change.

First of all, consider the absurdity of the suggestion that a brilliant, young, black president wouldn't represent an historic, transforming leap forward in American politics. On its face, this is nothing more than Rovian hyperspin.

Barack Obama personifies change -- no matter who his running-mate is.

But there's a further point (and thanks to Newsweek's Howard Fineman for picking up on it): That what Biden represents is a guy - perhaps uniquely qualified - to implement the change that Obama represents.

With his knowledge of the ways of Washington, his vast experience in the Senate, his insider savvy, Biden brings to the Democratic ticket a glimmer of hope that all the things Obama wants to accomplish - from foreign affairs and health care to economic and tax policy - might actually get done in the next administration.

snip//

Biden doesn't detract from the message of change: he drives it home.

[Bobbie Jo]

1. Giving this a rec right out of the gate!

[bjobotts]

59. You always do. Critical faculties never require investigation...just "sounds good", yep.

[bjobotts]

61. Glenn Greenwald at salon .com supports Biden but raises the best discussion on this.

[bjobotts]

62. One must be aware of the situation even is you support Biden pick

[mkultra]

95. feel free to use the message box in the future.

Its for text. like this. try it.

[Bobbie Jo]

66. Umm...Who are you, how in the hell do YOU know what I "always do," and...

why are you answering your own posts? :shrug:

[bjobotts]

75. 3questions. You are everyman(joke).Not answereing own post but extending their headlines

I am ubest and your quickness to jump to recommend indicates you would always be quick to jump to recommend anything that you like and agrees with your opinion. Slowness indicates deliberation and consideration of alternatives. Didn't intend to make you feel defensive, it's not a value judgment, not right or wrong, just an ism...the way it is. Not a big deal. Enjoy

btw...critical faculties don't always have to engage an investigation as they can be spot on by the nature of their own perceptions...yep sounds right is usually a message to self indicating this doesn't require me investigating further. Just saying...have a good one

[Bobbie Jo]

92. By the same measure...your broad- brush interpretation indicates a degree of arrogance..

in the validity of your ability to analyze another's thought process, which is undoubtedly a result of your own narrow-minded, know-it-all opinion. The condescending tone of your response confirms this perception without the necessity of further investigation.

...not right or wrong...just the way it is.

btw....Psych 201 is next semester, don't attempt to skip ahead. :)

Enjoy!

[Muttocracy]

2. he knows what needs to be fixed - he watched the GOP breaking it. nt

[Cha]

13. There ya..I'm excited for Joe as

well as for Obama & us.

[Hope And Change]

3. K & R!

[H2O Man]

4. Nominated.

It should be a clue to anyone who wonders if Biden is a "good choice" that a snake like David Gregory is saying the things he is.

[babylonsister]

6. He was quite nasty today; there was no mistaking which side he's on. nt

[H2O Man]

8. I can remember

years ago, some DUers saying that they liked him as a reporter, and wished that he could host his own show on MSNBC. I said they wouldn't think that way if they knew him. He is a snake.

[mod mom]

28. I'll never forgive him for dancing on stage e rove while the Plame trial was in the news.

Just as the recent footage from the McCain bar-b-que in Sedona, it shows that the fourth estate has become to close with those they are suppose to be objective about.

[blondeatlast]

16. It was sickening. So utterly biased he nearly lost his cool nt

[offog]

80. Good point, H2O Man.

If the opposition is dissing Biden, he must have something going for him. I like the combination of Obama's "fresh face" with Biden's "old hand" experience. I agree that Obama needs a running-mate who really knows Washington.
As for the fuss over Biden's past statement(s) about Obama's inexperience, I don't worry about that. I guess this is a chance for Biden to put his money where is mouth is and provide that extra experience.

[speedoo]

5. It's a rethug argument. Therefore it's idiotic. nt

[jillan]

7. I hadn't heard Fineman's line yet - bravo!

[Overseas]

9. K&R !! Glad he called out Gregory-- he's always quite pro-JSM III. /nt

[mzmolly]

10. Very well said.

K and R.

[last1standing]

11. What the pundits and concern trolls don't understand is what Obama's "Change" means.

They want us all to believe that Obama wants to get into the whitehouse and dismantle the entire government. Not only is this simplistic, it's not what Obama is talking about.

Obama is running to change Washington by fixing the dysfunction that has become the norm under bush*. He wants to root out the systematic corruption caused by lobbyists with bottomless pockets.

Who better to help him than the most honest politician in DC? A man who's worked with republicans and calls many his friends? A man who is respected on both sides of the aisle?

Biden doesn't detract from the message of "change", he exemplifies what it means.

Great post.

K&R!

[Cha]

12. This is Priceless!

And, I don't know how much fournier, gregory, et al make to set themselves up as idiot trolls but it isn't enough.

[DB1]

14. When mainstream USA sees Biden for the first time, they will say this is a change. No Bullshit.

[Barack_America]

15. The only problem with this piece is he's arguing reality vs. perception.

And, in American politics, perception often trumps reality.

But hopefully the campaign does a good job of arguing the points the author makes, as I'm sure the McCain campaign will argue against them.

[ProSense]

19. Here's the problem with the perception argument: the alternative, McCain, has been there for 25+ yrs

You can make the perception argument against someone with a record of protecting the status quo, but still, Obama as the case for change supersedes that.

Jukebox John

[frogcycle]

46. AND has been in the pocket of the lobbyists

Biden - lowest net worth in the Senate, Amtrak commuter... ehhh... not so much!

Biden in fact abhors the same things about DC that Obama does. He ran for President not out of ambition to BE President, but because he concluded he had gotten as far as he could, influence-wise, in the Senate, and if he was to bring about the changes he had aspirt3d to for so many years, he needed a better platform.

THAT is what makes his use of the Lincoln quote so meaningful. He now gets to put his feet in the right place.

[Orsino]

17. Yes, a 35-year Senate veteran *does* undercut a message of change--by definition.

There's simply no getting around that factor--but there's also much to be said for long experience and smarts. Whatever Obama delivers as president, it isn't all going to be change. Biden is far from the worst veep candidate we could have.

I just hope that together they have the necessary courage and savvy to provoke the right change.

[chiefofclarinet]

18. Great article!

I have been saying stuff to this extent ever since I joined. However, this is the best I've seen it presented. Change through experience is the ticket.

[RedLetterRev]

35. Thank you!

How can anyone change what's broken if they don't know what's broken? Biden does. And he's not afraid to call bullshit bullshit.

And welcome to DU :hi:

Kicked and Rec'd!

[BidenDemocrat]

20. Plus, if they are now arguing that this ticket will not bring change from the last eight years....

then why are they opposing it?

[bjobotts]

63. That's not the argument. Read Glenn Greenwald at salon.com

[BigBearJohn]

21. That's the BEST argument I've heard so far. Brilliant.

[nolabels]

22. This is change in the fact a new-comer out-sider type gets the nomination......

and then asks a long time insider to be his running mate. Could make for some pretty engaged and heated cabinet meetings :-)

[TexasObserver]

23. What would R. W. Emerson say?

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do."

Yes, I grow weary of the concern extremists, too. It's always too hot or too cold for those Goldilocks.

[Zhade]

24. Wow, and this is from HuffPo!

Interesting read.

[D23MIURG23]

25. If this is the best they can come up with, I'm thinking they are pretty screwed.

Its a total non-sequitar; an idiot could see through it.

[ellisonz]

26. Agreed.

[AtomicKitten]

27. It's an idiotic argument put forward by idiots.

The funny part is watching them argue this nonsense with such fervor. Quite a performance.

Biden is going to point and laugh.

[erpowers]

31. Not An Idiotic Argument

The argument that Biden undercuts Obama's message of change is not an idiotic argument put forward by idiots. It is actually a true argument. Throughout the campaign Obama said people should not vote for Hillary Clinton because she represented the old school and things needed to change. Then he picks Biden, a guy who had been in the Senate for 35 years, as his Vice President. That underminds the talking point of change. In addition, if Biden was a good choice as Vice President because since he had been in politics so long he would be able to help Obama make changes then why should Biden not be the presidential nominee. Although people like myself are still going to vote for Obama he needs to stop trying to have things both ways. You cannot at one point say certain people should not be the presidential nominee and then pick someone who represented what you spoke against.

[AtomicKitten]

33. It's a low-hanging fruit argument.

The devil is in the details. Biden's longevity in Washington does not necessarily correlate with all the negative connotations of the meaning of "old school." Obama's message of change is anchored by Biden, a reassuring presence for the faint of heart.

[dansolo]

34. You shouldn't equate Biden and Clinton

The change that Obama is talking about revolves largely around the hyper partisanship that exists in Washington, which prevents anything from getting done. There was a time when Democrats and Republicans were able work together. It could be argued that the partisanship divide that exists today started, not with the Bush Administration, but as far back as the Clinton administration. Hillary Clinton would not represent change because she was a significant factor in the partisan atmosphere that has existed since the early 90's. Biden is much more highly regarded on both sides of the aisle, and he could play the role as a facilitator of change much better than Hillary Clinton ever could.

[erpowers]

83. Hillary Clinton Was Not a Partisan

Hillary Clinton was not a partisan. Much of the partisanship came about as a result of Newt Gingrich. However, the move to partisan happened even before the Clintons came to office. The move to partisanship started as early as Barry Goldwater and has increased ever since. However, Hillary Clinton was known to move across the aisle to get things done when they needed to happen. In addition, if I remember correctly didn't Obama and his supporters say Hillary Clinton was too close to the Republican to be the Democratic nominee; now all of a sudden she is too partisan. Once again I am not angling for Clinton to have been the Vice President. I just contend picking Joe Biden as the Vice President takes away from the message of change.

[snake in the grass]

94. Once again,

it is the Clinton's fault. This is so ridiculous. The whole divide was caused by Republicans who hated the Clintons even before they got to the White House and the lap dogs in the media who went along for the fun. You just watch and see. They are going to put a hating on Obama just like the Clintons. Will you blame Obama as well?

[offog]

85. Huh?

:o There's no reason a person experienced with Washington can't help bring about change. I would hate for Obama to work hard for change and then get tripped up because he doesn't know enough about the Washington networks, systems, personalities and all those unwritten rules.

[ecdab]

29. you are correct sir

[flpoljunkie]

30. 'Change' is changing the direction of the country from the past 8 years. McCain's more of the same!

Obama/Biden will bring the change that is so urgently needed to move our country forward and to begin cleaning up the mess made by the "Worst President Ever!"

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bjobotts]

65. what needs to change. Congress is closest to the people so they try to make it ineffective

[bjobotts]

67. That is "business as usual in Washington"...the corporate owned congress

[pipi_k]

32. I decided right at the outset that

whichever person Obama picked, there would be some bunch of people somewhere who would slap that person down for something.

I mean, really....there's no winning this one.

If he picked someone with experience, it shows he's trying to compensate for his lack thereof.

If he picked someone with change in mind, there would be a lack of experience

etc., etc....

"They"...the pundits, Republicans, and whoever else....have an answer for everything...I'm sure they've had one for months...on little index cards, all ready to go whenever the notice came on which person Obama picked. Maybe that's why the MSM and press were as hot and heavy to find out as they were....they wanted to be the first ones on the block to come up with something negative to say about his choice.

I'm just like...yeah...whatever. Politics as usual.... :eyes:

[alfredo]

36. Obama has learned from Carter's mistakes.

[jwirr]

43. I was going to say that. Carter came to Washington with little knowledge

of how it worked and he had a terrible time getting anything passed in Congress. You cannot bring about change if you do not have the system down pat. Biden will do that easily.

[alfredo]

44. The key is to fill your administration with people with experience, but

not so much that all vestiges of idealism have been leached out.

[bjobotts]

68. Judgment trumps experience. Being wrong for 39yrs is still being wrong

[alfredo]

89. You need both good judgement and experience. Good judgement without

experience will only get you so far. You only have a short period of time to get your agenda accepted, so you need someone that knows who can be trusted, and who can't be trusted.

[LBJDemocrat]

37. If Obama were really serious about change

then he would have picked a running mate with no experience. Furthermore, he would pick Secretaries of State and Defense who have never even set foot in Washington.

[scarletwoman]

50. I hope your post is tongue in cheek - because if it's not, it's about the stupidest thing

I've read this weekend, and that's saying something.

[LBJDemocrat]

91. Of COURSE it was!

Seriously.

[bjobotts]

69. Not true. An experienced secretary knows who does what and gets you to the right person

[bjobotts]

72. A lying scheming secretary will sabotage efforts.Judgment trumps experience but doesn't exclude it

That's good judgment.

[bjobotts]

76. Biden's experience tells him Obama is the change we are looking for

[bjobotts]

77. Now that shows Biden's good judgment. A leader for change must be likable

Both these guys are extremely likable.

Obama/Biden...now that is exciting. Over analyzed campaigns by media goobers.

[MiniMe]

38. imho, Americans are very uncomfortable with "change"

Especially older americans. It can go from not wanting to change your doctor because you have been going to him for years to the metric system. Obama's change ideas are too much for these people, changing the entire structure. I think having 2 candidates like that would not be electable. Change has to be more gradual. Biden is for change, but its more change of the current administration and their policies. For a lot of people, Biden brings stability and a known along with change, and I think it will make those people more confortable voting for Obama. For DU, Biden's change isn't enough. But we aren't the ones that need to be convinced to vote for Obama. I don't think this has anything to do with Race in this case, the racists aren't going to vote for Barack even if his running mate is Jesus. I have seen several people mention (including me) that if Barack wins, it will be the first President who is younger than them. Even that can be difficult for some people to accept. I don't care about that, but it is a weird feeling and transition.

[Bluenorthwest]

39. Wanting and creating change...

Are two different things. Biden knows the process better than almost anyone, and that is golden and much to be prized. In a place like DC, many people want to do things, it really is the knowing how to get them done that wins the day. Obama has lots of experience legislating, but Biden just has truck loads of on site DC experience. Between the two of them, they will really be able to expedite their (and hopefully our) goals with skill and grace. Or with steely wills and knowlege.
I think they are a great pair. Clown Time is over. Time for the smart guys.

[DutchLiberal]

40. Obama and Biden: same old politics as usual.

Obama: voted 'yes' on Patriot Act and FISA.
Biden: voted 'yes' on Bankruptcy Bill and Iraq invasion.

How believable are they?

[fadedrose]

41. Change

I think Obama will consult with as many people expert in their fields as possible before he makes a decision, at least I hope so. This is a change from current policy in the WH.

Something old (Biden), something new (Obama), something borrowed (opinions from contemporaries) , and BLUE....

[AuntPatsy]

42. K & R for what is really in play...they are sure running scared....very telling, I was beginning

to believe they thought themselves invincible, its obvious they don't and that in itself gives me much hope.

[treestar]

45. K&R because it is so true

Only the simple minded cannot see the distinction here. Even in making the argument, they underscore that McSame's years in DC would mean no change, either.

[defendandprotect]

47. So you're saying that Obama's anti-Iraq war stand isn't undermined . . ..

by Biden's pro-Iraq war stand . . .

hmmm.....

[frogcycle]

48. go do your homework

then come back and try again

[defendandprotect]

49. Evidently you've learned that Biden was against the war in Iraq . . .????

Iraq War position
Biden agreed with the administration's assertion that Saddam Hussein needed to be eliminated. The Bush administration rejected an effort Biden undertook with Sen. Richard Lugar (R-Ind.) to pass a resolution authorizing military action only after the exhaustion of diplomatic efforts. In October 2002, Biden supported the final resolution of support for War in Iraq. He continues to support the war effort and appropriations to pay for it, but has argued repeatedly that more soldiers are needed, the war should be internationalized, and the Bush administration should "level with the American people" about the cost and length of the conflict.

Recap .... SUPPORTED THE WAR . . . SUPPORTED APPROPRIATIONS TO PAY FOR IT

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Joseph_Biden

Biden opposed the "surge" - December 2006

[Grinchie]

51. I didnt realize that DU could sell out to the DLC so quickly

First of all, the DLC is plain evil, and now all you Biden cheerleaders are trying to apologize for Obama's selection of Biden.

Obama's message of change was driven by the flight by Democrat's from the DLC, which has emasculated the Democratic party by pushing it closer to the Republicans.

I think Biden is a fine person, but overall, his politics are hidden in plain sight. He represents another sellout by the Democratic party, similar to the choice of Joe Liebrman by Gore in 2000, all in the name of gathering more votes from the center. It failed then, but mostly because the election was rigged. This time, it prbably won't fail, but the DLC Corporatist's will have their Mole in place.

Granted, Biden is not as loathesome as Lieberman, but they are cut from the same Democratic Leadership Council cloth, and the fact that Obama has chosen to placate the Corporate slime monkeys in the DLC by choosing one of their own is about as awfull as supporting Retroactive Immunity for the Telecomms, and not supporting Kucinich's Articles of Impeachment.

You can spin the fact that Biden's membership in the DLC doesn't mean anything, but you are only fooling yourselves.

At this point, Obama's campaign is turning into a change of employee's, not a mandate of change.

If we all haven't learned in the past 8 years that we cannot rely on "Faith" to vet our candidates, then we are doomed to repeat another Bush/Cheney. Remember, Dubya was a complete unknown back in 2000, and Cheney was the wise moderate grandfather image.

Serious research needs to be done on Biden. His ties to the DLC are unnacceptable to me, and until he explains his positions meaningfully, I am on the fence.

Take this tidbit for example.. Bidens support of the Bankruptcy Bill http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/000966.html

[scarletwoman]

55. You're "on the fence"? What does that mean? That you're not sure you'll vote for the Democratic

candidate in the presidential election?

[Waiting For Everyman]

74. Biden was around before the DLC

[gateley]

78. Biden is not "DLC". Show me a membership which includes him.

He's spoken before them, and been honored by them, but he's not OF them. He is not a centrist.

[scarletwoman]

52. Great article, great argument -- rec'd -- thanks for posting it.

I used to take pride in having never used the "ignore" feature at DU, and I made it all the way through the primaries still without ever using it.

But after the primaries, when so much bitching and moaning kept going on, I finally decided I'd really had enough. So, whiner by whiner, my list built up until I had over 30 people on it. I culled it once in awhile by checking on who had finally been tombstoned -- and that cleared out a good 1/2 dozen or more over time. (Hah! I *knew* they were bad apples!)

Anyway, yesterday when I got out of bed and found out the news about the VP pick (Hah! I *knew* it was going to be Biden!), I decided to delete my entire ignore list because I figured there was no reason left for folks to argue anymore, the VP pick was a done deal. (so I thought, but then I hadn't had any coffee yet)

Didn't take much more than an hour for me to decide to fire it up again -- sheesh! I am so SICK of people bitching and complaining and whining and spreading right wing memes and all the other demoralizing and Debbie Downer crap that far too many DUers seem hellbent on doing, day after day after fucking day.

So my new list is already up to 15 just since yesterday morning, with at least another 3 or 4 probably headed there soon. I already added 3 new ones just from this thread alone. Several of the names are making their encore appearance on my list -- no big surprise that the same whiners and complainers are unfortunately still at it, I guess.

And there's a rather large crop of posters whom I'd never seen before, but who jumped out of the woodwork to naysay and air all manner of grievances over the VP pick.

Enough shit comes at us from the Right Wing all the time, I no longer have any patience left for listening to the whiners supposedly on our own side. I just don't.

</end>

sw

[blue_onyx]

53. I don't think it's an "idiotic argument"

I think Obama and Biden could very well bring change that we need. But if change from Bush is the standard we use, then so would have Clinton. My main problem was that people seemed to argue that "Hillary = Same" while "Biden = Change." I just don't see much different between Hillary and Biden, at least when it comes to change. So I think people can have a valid argument that Biden may not reflect their idea of change. I, however, think Biden will be a good VP and help Obama move the country forward (regardless of whether or not he embodies "change").

[Waiting For Everyman]

54. Then change would always be inexperienced, therefore disqualified...

It IS an idiotic argument!!! They can't "down" Obama for inexperience, and at the same time make the no-change argument about Biden.

We should insist on a minimum of logic from the Reps. Their double-think is getting boring.

So if they want to criticize Biden, then they have to admit that Obama is qualified without specific executive experience.

BTW, he's JUST AS experienced, and OLDER than JFK was. I'd make that point A LOT.

[Waiting For Everyman]

60. Besides...

I agree with Bill Clinton's statement about it, which I think got lost in the spin over it. I think Clinton was giving O a good line of attack to use against the Repubs...

The requirements for President ARE what the Constitution says they are. It doesn't require executive experience, that's a new made-up Repub criterion. They have no right to add requirements to the Constitution. They do it so that nobody outside the system will ever be considered.

It's the only thing that their guy McCain has going for him, as an ancient machine-hack. It's not even a standard Obama has to meet. JFK didn't, and he did pretty well.

Another point... the Repubs are already spinning the similar idea that these times are too dangerous to "experiment". That's exactly the reasoning which brought us two terms of Bush. These times are too dangerous NOT TO take a chance on something else... just as in the JFK election. McCain will lead to disaster, guaranteed.

[Eurobabe]

56. HELLO!!?? Has Howard Fineman been reading the JBSG posts?

He is saying what we have believed since January. You can't change something if you don't have all the inside knowledge of how it works. Joe brings the know-how to change what is broken. Obama can implement that change.

Stroke of genius in choosing Biden.

[trocar]

57. OH Yeah

My thoughts exactly, I've been fuming since yesterday about the talking heads. What was Obama to do? Choose the city councilman who just got elected to represent "change"? Obama is the change agent, he will LEAD the change

[bjobotts]

58. That "could" be the way it goes. The establishment insiders want

things in Washington not to change too much from Business as usual and certainly are praising Obama's pick for that very reason..."Here is a guy we can do business with" they claim. Biden "can" be an implement for the changes Obama represents unless Obama himself goes against the very rhetoric he uses to say he is an agent of change. We will have to wait and see how Biden fits in rather than just "assume" he will be this or that. After Bush/Cheney I take every thing with a grain of salt and not just jump on "assumptions". The stakes are too high and I look at actions and not promises.

[Waiting For Everyman]

70. The reassuring thing is that Biden hasn't raked in the $millions

that almost all other senators and reps have. That alone impresses me. He could be much wealthier by now, from his many years in office as others are. That's an important sign of integrity to me, because it takes a lot of character not to rationalize that "everybody else is doing it", and be better off personally from it.

[gateley]

79. Just another little tidbit --

When he first was elected to public office, he made a conscious decision not to invest in the stock market, lest his holdings influence his votes.

I'm sure others with high ideals entered the public service arena, but many succumbed to the temptations of filthy lucre. Biden didn't.

He's kept his integrity.

Not sure I could have been that principled if I were faced with the same opportunities.

[Waiting For Everyman]

71. (double posted)

[BlooInBloo]

73. I tend to agree, but there is the flip side. The President is for change....

But change will have to happen through *existing* mechanisms. And Biden is takes a backseat perhaps only to Kennedy and Byrd in mastery of those existing political mechanisms.

He never woulda been my first choice, but he brings pluses both for the campaign and for actual governing.

Besides, Obama can replace VP in his 2nd term with someone more ideologically in line, to take over after Obama's second term.

[Inuca]

82. What argument do you have for the claim

that Biden is not "ideologically in line" with Obama? And by the way, ideologies are risky business.

[BlooInBloo]

87. Read that as "the change theme"....

Other than that, Biden's voting record is a bit more centrist than Obama's.

Other than that, nothing.

[Inuca]

90. Sorry, I guess I kind of

overreacted :blush:

[BlooInBloo]

93. Heh! No worries.

[Wizard777]

81. I want change AND the status quo in the Bill of Rights.

I don't want republican change where we go from a thriving democracy to a dying communist regime or nazi regime. Sure I want change. But I don't want a complete change where this is no longer America or anything that even closely resembles America. Even with Change some parts of the Status Quo must be preserved like our Flag and Constitution. Not everything is going to change. Just the parts Bush & Cheney messed up really bad.

[lonestarnot]

84. And boy will he ever drive it!

:applause:

[Buzz Clik]

86. It's just another stick on the bonfire, Sister.

I keep hearing this shit all the time: "The candidates promised a different kind of campaign, but with all of McCain's attacks and Obama's counterpunching, it's politics as usual."

No one ever accused of American politics and political analysis as being smart.

[Seldona]

88. K&R

Thanks for posting this. Hadn't quite thought of Obama's choice of Biden in that light. Given this new perspective I believe more than ever Obama made the right choice. We have a STRONG ticket. Now if they will just flex those muscles...

[TheKentuckian]

96. Biden doesn't undercut the change message

when many feel that if our government had more Joe Biden's then Washington would be many times less broken.

Maybe the baby shouldn't be thrown out with the bathwater?

[MadHound]

97. Still doesn't change the fact that Biden's ass belongs to MNBA,

And that he will be representing their interests first and foremost while in the White House. No matter how much you try to spin it, Biden is not representative of change, but more of the same corporate corruption that flows throughout the Democratic(and for that matter Republican) party.

[quaker bill]

98. after 30+ years

of misbegotten republican rule, letting someone like Joe Biden have a role in running the country is change. Say what you want about him, but, Joe Biden has always been believable. So perhaps, this is even "change" that "you can believe in".