how much do you figure a private school voucher would be worth?

[ulysses]

$2,000? $5,000?

How much do you think private school tuitions cost?

Atlanta has a wealth of private schools (some, of course, founded after Brown v. Board of Ed), and I've worked in a couple of them, so I checked out a few tuition levels.

* The Howard School: First place I taught, services only students with learning disabilities and ADHD. Great school, it really is. Tuition? []$21,120 for Lower School students and $22,072 for Middle School and High School students.

* Westminster: Very high quality, very churchy. I subbed there in the 90s - one math teacher had more Tim and Beverly LaHaye books in the room than math books. Still, quality school. Tuition? Pre1st -5th $16,450 6th-12th $19,080

* Galloway: A friend of mine went here. Again, very good school. I would send Chris here, if we were closer and I was looking for a private school for him. And if we could afford it. Tuition?
Half Day Program for 3-year-olds: $10,240
8:15 am - 12:00 pm

1 PM Program for 4-year-olds: $13,190
8:15 am - 1:00 pm

2 PM Program for 5-year-olds: $14,890
8:15 am - 2:00 pm

All Day Program: $16,620
8:15 am - 3:00 pm

Middle Learning (8:00 am - 3:00 pm)
Grades 5 and 6: $16,810
Grades 7 and 8: $17,720

Upper Learning (8:00 am - 3:00 pm)
Grades 9 - 12: $17,720

You get the picture. "But what of the Catholic schools?" you say.

St. Pius X
Tuition $10,200
Annual Re-enrollment Fee (non-refundable) $200
Textbooks (approximate range) $350 - $550
Uniforms (approximately) $150

And the crazy fundy school for which I worked in 03-04? Where I wouldn't educate my dog? Starts at $3k per semester for grades 1-3 and goes up from there. Then there are the $300 "book usage fees".

Someone tell me again how vouchers make a difference for poor kids?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

1. When voters have these basic facts explained to them, they overwhelmingly reject vouchers.

[ulysses]

5. and that's why we're here.

:)

[Runcible Spoon]

2. I'm thinking they will make a difference for the loonies who gang up, start their own charters...

and spend federal money teaching children all about how evil the Gays, Atheists, and Commies are.

God bless faith-based funding. Because absolutely no federal funding program was EVER created with deliberate or accidental loopholes :eyes:

[ulysses]

6. you've seen the light!

:D

[SoCalDem]

3. Vouchers are pivotal for the Storefront Jesus Schools

but useless for any REAL "private schools".. They are also useless for most poor people who lack the transportation costs to ferry kids back and forth top private schools, even IF the vouchers were valid..

It's a gimmick...like ALL republican plans..

[ulysses]

7. good point - hadn't considered transport costs.

I'm just hoping we don't see vouchers become a *bipartisan* gimmick this fall.

[AlCzervik]

4. my daughter goes to a non religious private school and if vouchers were available

my guess is that tuition would double so that those with vouchers still could not attend.

[ulysses]

9. heh.

Of the schools I listed above, I only ever saw Howard bring in kids from the ghetto, and they did it fairly regularly w/ their own money.

[GreenPartyVoter]

11. You hit the nail on the head. Vouchers, coupled with NCLB, is all about shrinking

public schools until they are small enough to drown in a bath tub. Then the private schools can rake in the dough.

[IntravenousDemilo]

8. Not near as much as abolishing private schools altogether.

Bloody snob factories. Get rid of them, remove all alternatives to public schools. That also includes home schooling and religious schools. Once there is nothing but the public system, politicians will be forced to send their own kids to public schools or the kids won't be schooled at all. THEN you'll see some positive changes in the public system. Right now, the folks in charge have no vested family interest in making public education work, so while they send their offspring off to tony, ivy-covered institutions, everyone else's school has to wither on the vine from lack of financial support.

Oh, and all post-secondary education should be free as well.

[ulysses]

10. well, I wouldn't go that far,

but you do have a point about personal investment. :7

[LisaM]

13. I couldn't agree with you more

especially about free college.

I do think that there might be some value in special programs, if not special schools, for children with autism, etc., that can't function in the regular classroom.

[Thothmes]

24. The financial support problem can easily be

corrected with appropriate taxes being levied on the citizens of the state and school jurisdictions. Those people that send their kids off to those ivy-covered institutions still pay taxes to the local and state jurisdictions. Just tax the hell out of them.

[Sancho]

12. $20,000 easy...the education you get is priceless!

The voucher thing is another *publican trick. If you want vouchers, I have some land for you in Florida...

[AnneD]

14. I am guesstimating here....

but the State of Texas pays say 2-3K to the school districts per student. They give other money but directly for per student it is 2-3 and chip in some for overhead (like teacher's pay, etc), So if costs are equal-and I think they are pretty close-a voucher here would get my child into the fundie school that you wouldn't send your dog to.

Oh, and you shouldn't expect to get the extra stuff from a private school that public schools are required by law to provide....like PT,OT, Speech, Nursing Care, one to one caregiver aide, and special education programs. Private schools fall through many legal loophole of accountability. Private schools tend to cherry pick their students thus de facto discrimination.

It will not help poor kids but it will take money out of the pool of money available for public schools-again, leaving the public schools with less money and private schools will get additional money (generally without the accountability that is required of public school) from the government in addition to tuitions charged. My tax money goes to pay for every child's public education-not to supplement Muffy and Todd's private education.

[ulysses]

16. it'd only get her into that school

for one semester. :)

Piss-poor teacher salaries, too. That school paid me about $1,500 a month, iirc.

[AnneD]

33. I would never work for a private school....

poor pay, no benefits, no union.

[ulysses]

45. yeah, I'd have been w/out insurance then

if not for my wife's. The school did *offer* it, but it'd have taken half of what I brought home.

[Motown_Johnny]

15. it sounds like you should open your own school, take only 30 students and only charge the 5k voucher

this would gross 150k a year for you...



If you spent half of that on overhead you would still be making 75k a year and be your own boss. Assuming a portion of that would be the payment on your "schoolhouse" you would also be building some equity in a property you could sell later (to help with retirement)




Is is possible that the future of our education system will mirror our past and the one room schoolhouse of old?

[ulysses]

17. you forget that I have to pay teachers.

30 kids, I'd want, at barest minimum, one other teacher, and that's if I can do the impossible and both teach and run the school. Assume that I pay my other teacher $30k, which is stupid but par for many districts, that leaves me $45k for overhead. Rent, books and supplies, etc. If I hire two teachers, I have $15k left for costs.

[ulysses]

18. that's also assuming a $5k voucher, which I doubt.

I suspect the discussion would be along the lines of $2k.

[Motown_Johnny]

23. Ok, I was assuming a 30 - 1 ratio to be better than most public schools have

I didn't make myself clear I guess. It sounds like you are a teacher.



Yes it would be hard to teach and run the school both but I think it could be done. You would need to schedule some class time when the kids would not need your direct attention so you could work on the books at that time.

The other possibility is asking/requiring the children's parent (just one of them) to volunteer one day a month at the school. This would give you one extra body a day to help out as well as engage the parent in their child's education


(yes the 5k voucher is the high end, but it is also working on the assumption that the parents do not contribute monetarily)

[ulysses]

25. yes, I am a teacher. edited

30:1 - actually, Georgia caps classes at that by law, so no, it's not better than most public schools.

Yes it would be hard to run teach and run the school both but I think it could be done. You would need to schedule some class time when the kids would not need your direct attention so you could work on the books at that time.

Heh. Yeah, let me ignore my public school kids for an hour or two while I balance my checkbook during class time, and see how quickly 1) my classroom goes to shit and 2) I get my ass canned. It doesn't work that way, and I certainly wouldn't send my child to a school where his teacher nipped off to work the books or show prospective parents around for an hour or two.

edit: the parent volunteer thing might get more folks into the classroom, which is generally a good thing, but if they don't know anything about teaching - or just don't show up one day - it doesn't do me any practical good.

[Motown_Johnny]

26. Lunch + Study hall + Phys ed = 90 minutes???

[ulysses]

27. who supervises lunch & study hall?

Who teaches PE? Besides, what if running the business takes more than an hour and a half per day? It usually does, I'm told.

[quakerboy]

42. But if....

Heh. Yeah, let me ignore my public school kids for an hour or two while I balance my checkbook during class time, and see how quickly 1) my classroom goes to shit and 2) I get my ass canned. It doesn't work that way, and I certainly wouldn't send my child to a school where his teacher nipped off to work the books or show prospective parents around for an hour or two.

But if you find some nice Fundies, I'm pretty sure you could pull this off, as long as you promise to teach abstinence only, Creationism, and maybe snake charming. I don't think they fire people for neglect of the basic needs.

[OnionPatch]

19. To be honest, I don't think they really want all the kids educated.

I mean, if they all have a good education, who is going to work for peanuts under slave labor conditions? If everyone is educated, the elite's kids might have to compete with the rabble for jobs. Also, if schools are privatized, they'll be able to teach all kinds of useful propaganda to the kids under the guise of religion or whatever other specialty they claim. People who support vouchers only care about their own kids. They got theirs and don't care about anyone else. Your post goes along with my own experience. No one can afford private school on a voucher. Not even close. It's a joke. What will happen is the poor will be stuck in sub-standard, awful schools with little or no resources. What kind of society supports this kind of thing? Shameful.

[ulysses]

20. you're right, of course.

:thumbsup:

[grantcart]

21. most effective killing of an idea that sounds good but isn't I have ever seen

[ulysses]

22. thanks.

I appreciate that. :)

[NashVegas]

28. Way Back When I Wasn't Yet Tired Of This Argument ...

Some of the information I dug up included statistical information showing that students at private schools did not perform better than those public schools at Math and English skills. Between private, public, and public magnet schools, the magnet school kids performed best (cherry picked), the regular public school kids average about the same or slightly better than privates.

Another thing I found was a case where kids that came on vouchers at a parochial school had to pay out of (the state's) pocket for extra expenses that tuition-paying students didn't have to, as the school had fundraisers and trusts to cover them. So the voucher students were costing the state up to an additional $2k as what parents of the tuition-paying kids did.

It's really not difficult at all to find scientific studies that rip to shreds the arguments of vouchers proponents. This took seconds:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3944/is_200804/ai_n25419086

[LWolf]

29. I suspect that, should vouchers become reality,

transportation would be another chunk out of public school funds.

Or not, if the real purpose is to subsidize students who already attend, rather than open the doors to others.

[ulysses]

31. I do know that transportation isn't included in Georgia's new

voucher law for special ed kids.

If the parent chooses to transfer their child to another public school, private
school, or state school the parent is responsible for transportation.

[LWolf]

32. I'm getting a headache, thinking about all of the possible twists.

What's the true purpose? Privatization? Indoctrination? Further erosion of public education? It could be that vouchers would be nothing more than a subsidy for those who already attend private school, making it possible for more to attend, but not opening the door for ANY public school student to attend a private school with a voucher.

The obvious problems with equity: vouchers only for those who can afford the rest of the costs, who can afford to transport their kids themselves, whose kids meet whatever the enrollment criteria happen to be....

Public money funding an inequitable system opens the door to legal challenges.

What a mess it would be; and how much public money would be spent while that mess got untangled and straightened out?

[KamaAina]

34. A voucher law for special ed?

That sounds pretty bizarre even by the standards set by Sonny Perdue, America's Worst Governor(TM). As mentioned upthread, private schools find ways not to accept kids with disabilities, excepting those few (like Howard) whose mission it is to serve them. So what good are the vouchers? :shrug:

edit: PSA: When posting threads about special ed, try extra hard to avoid typos :P

[ulysses]

36. the best thing about the law is that

parents sign a waiver when accepting the money that withdraws the child from special ed services. The private school isn't required to do anything extra for the child.

[KamaAina]

39. (facepalm)

One hopes that GA's state Developmental Disabilities Council, and other advocates, are as steamed as I am...

[ulysses]

40. check it out.

http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2007_08/fulltext/sb10.htm

20-2-2114 (f) Acceptance of a scholarship shall have the same effect as a parental refusal to consent to services pursuant to the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, 20 U.S.C.A. Section 1400, et seq.

Amazing, no?

[KamaAina]

41. Words fail me.

almost pau hana time here, but I'm sure all the advocates out here will have some fun with this tomorrow...

[ulysses]

46. I'm still waiting for them to show.

;-) It's pretty revealing, seems to me, in terms of who the law is actually intended to benefit.

[LWolf]

30. It won't be more than the average per pupil expenditure in that state.

Probably a little less.

Which means, depending on how pricey the school is, the voucher would cover a fraction of the cost.

[LeftyMom]

35. The only private school I'd consider is $4,600/yr.

:shrug:

I don't support vouchers, but not all private schools are that insanely expensive.

[ulysses]

37. I know.

Not many are that cheap in my experience, though.

[Cleita]

38. $00.00.

Giving our public school money to private schools isn't right IMHO.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

43. Even my right-wing brother is against vouchers

His point is that the private schools would just raise their tuition by the amount of the voucher, so that it would be a boon for them and wouldn't affect their clientele.

Someone I know who was a private school graduate herself considered sending her daughter to the same school--until she found it that the school now costs as much as a year of college, just for a day program.

[TheKentuckian]

44. School vouchers are another evil scam.

They just wish to expand the gap between the haves and have nots.

Apparently they're shooting for turn of the 20th century Russian peasant for us. How do they get their own people on board for this stuff?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. By taking advantage of people's ignorance

If you're poor, $2,000 sounds like a lot of money. You may not be aware that your school district spends $5,000-$7,000 per student, and you've never investigated private schools, so you don't know that they cost even more than that.

So if you hear some Republicanite promising a $2,000 voucher for your child's schooling, you envision Shade Acres College Preparatory Academy, but in fact, you'd be able to afford nothing but Storefront Sham School.

[ulysses]

47. it's another "us vs them" mentality.

The pressure we're putting on kids now to achieve everything by the time they're fifteen doesn't help either, I suspect.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Private school alum checking in!

:patriot:

Yep, you nailed it!!

[ulysses]

50. hey!

I'm being Mr. Fixated. I may see next week if I can find out how many GA sped students got the scholarship last year and how they fared.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. Don't know if I told you before

I was a faculty brat at the city's most expensive private school. Our tuition was covered but none of the extras. We had to pay extra for our books (had to buy all of our textbooks), our lunch (couldn't take a sack lunch, we all had to eat the school lunch), library fee, sports fee, any extra curricular activity had a fee, all field trips, etc, etc.

When vouchers were first proposed my mom said covering tuition will never be enough, low income families could never afford all the extras.

[ulysses]

52. you hadn't told me that.

Your mom was right, though. :)