Say it with me, "John McCain is NOT an ex-fighter pilot!"

[11 Bravo]

And anyone who grew up around aviators knows that the distinction is a significant one. John McCain was an attack pilot, flying an A-4 Skyhawk, a light bomber. He did not fly fighters, was not trained in air-to-air combat, nor was he ever involved in a dogfight. He did serve honorably (although not particularly effectively) as an attack pilot. But even if you give him a pass on his shootdown, he still crashed four airplanes worth hundreds of millions of dollars during routine training flights. That resume, which he wishes to use as a pass into the White House, would be a source of shame to most aviators.
Fighter pilots are the creme de la creme of Naval Aviation, and the fuck-up who graduated fifth from the bottom of his class was not a part of that select company. For John McCain to allow others to refer to him as a "fighter pilot" without immediately correcting the speaker is akin to claiming to be the recipient of a decoration he is not authorized to wear. In the U.S. military, there is no more shameful behavior, and I say that as a decorated combat infantryman as well as the son of a REAL U.S. Navy fighter jock.
If the Repugs wish to frame this election as a matter of "character", their candidate does not occupy the high ground.

[uponit7771]

1. My understanding is A means attack in the A-4 designation. Like the F in F-4 meant fighter I could..

...be wrong.

[AngryAmish]

2. Like the F-117

[Rick Myers]

3. A is Attack, F is fighter, B is bomber

The F-117 is an abboration, the F-117 was a light bomber, not a fighter, but while it was a classified project it was called the F-117, most likely to confuse any 'enemies'....

[Major Hogwash]

26. So, what was McCain's call sign, "Crash"?

Or "Holy Shit, he's in a plane again!"

Or "Lookout Below! No seriously, everybody, look out below!"

Or "Have Plane, Will Crash."

Or "Ooops e Daisy."

Or "McStake."


Can you imagine his radio squawk talk?

"Got your 6. Nope, your 5. Now your 4. Now 3 . . 2 . . 1."

"Pilot to tower, pilot to tower. Oh forget it, you're too late."

"Tower, what's my position? Wanna bet on that?"

"Tower, what the hell is that supposed to mean, 'He's coming in for a McCain landing?'"

"Tower, tell the Captain of that aircraft boat to stop it from moving this time."

"Tower, I don't think it's appropriate for you guys to start a pool and then announce what the pool is up to just before each one of my takeoffs."

[RamboLiberal]

30. And one of those making these charges is Ted Sampley

Yeah I really want to be associated with the FWad. :sarcasm:

http://www.usvetdsp.com/jan08/mccain_military_record.htm

Oh and let's not forget Rev Moon's trash newspaper. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_11_16/ai_61361646

[Major Hogwash]

36. So what?

A broken clock is right twice a day. That don't mean shit.
I don't care who the people are that agree with me, as long as they agree.

McCain is a two-faced, bullshit artist that has ran on his military service for almost 30 years.
He's a phony piece of dawg shit.

It doesn't break my heart that Sampley agrees that McCain is not qualified to be President.
Sampley is a highly-decorated, Vietnam veteran who served as a Green Beret, after all.
I have 10 times more respect for Sampley's service that I do of some asshole fuckin' clown like John McCain.

[suston96]

4. Once more, with feeling.....Quit attacking a candidate on his military service.....

...there are so many other issues that need to be addressed that all that can result from attacking a candidate's military service is to piss off veterans and glaringly point out that the other candidate never served.

[11 Bravo]

6. Attack, my ass.

It is in no way an attack to challenge a candidate for allowing his mouthpieces to afford him a designation he did not earn. If his supporters award him the Navy Cross , do we let that slide as well? Why not the Congressional Medal of Honor? McCain was not a fighter pilot, and anyone who thinks it comprises an "attack" on his service by pointing that out, displays their total ignorance of how the military works. I have no idea if you have ever served, and it doesn't really matter. I have, and McCain's behavior offends me, and I won't be asking for your permission to voice my displeasure.

[DevonRex]

7. I agree totally. As a veteran, I'm offended that his record is being

misrepresented. My dad was a REAL fighter pilot in the Marines during WWII and Korea. And he would have been offended that McCain is being called a fighter pilot.

[elleng]

9. Thought so,

that is, that Veterans (and families) would understand, and like my family not appreciate the b.s. mcC and 'friends' have been spreading around.

[suston96]

8. Your distinction between fighter and attack aircraft is technical and it will not sell...

....you are also focusing attention on the two candidates' military service, one of whom had none.

Your "attack aircraft" versus "fighter aircraft" distinction is meritless. They both required experienced pilots to do the job under serious battle conditions.

Oh, I spent a few years in the USAF starting in 1952 through 1969. I didn't have to fly them to know what the different aircraft did.

Matter of fact, one of my assignments was in the 50th Fighter Bomber Wing in France which flew F-86s. "Fighter Bomber"? Gee that's quite a combination, eh?

Edited for link. I was stationed there for 3 years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toul-Rosieres_Air_Base

[11 Bravo]

15. The distinction is real whether or not you acknowledge it.

And I was not distinguishing a difference between the aircraft, it was between the pilots who flew them. If you cannot acknowledge that the best pilots were assigned to fighter squadrons, then frankly, you are either misinformed or disingenuous. McCain was not a fighter pilot. Senator Obama's record is immaterial. Interestingly enough, you, in your haste to defend McCain, are the only one to bring it up. Are you "concerned"? The unassailable fact is that John McCain is allowing himself to be designated something he was not. Oh, and as for the F-86, curiously enough my Dad flew the F-86A as part of a Navy-Air Force exchange program during the early 50's. Trust me, the Navy didn't send the junior varsity to represent them with the zoomies, they sent FIGHTER PILOTS. And his squadron was designated a Fighter Interceptor Squadron. "Fighter Interceptor"? Gee, that's quite an combination, eh?

[suston96]

16. Where did McCain claim he was something he was not? Got a link to his exact words?

And I am not "defending" McCain. His service speaks for itself. I am trying to stop some people from foolishly pointing out that one presidential candidate served in the armed forces and the other did not.

And that supports a big qualification for commander-in-chief of the armed forces.

But keep talking about it. You'll get people to notice.

[11 Bravo]

31. Re-read the OP. If you believe you find a portion wherein I accuse McCain ...

of being something he is not, then ask someone else to read it to you. I am calling him out on allowing his supporters to label him something he is not. And that he has done so is indisputable. Your zeal in defending McCain while at the same time mischaracterizing my comments is, to say the least, curious.

[suston96]

38. I have no zeal in defending McCain. I call out bullshit whenever I smell it....

I live in Arizona and I plan on voting for Barack Obama and other Democrats.

But I recognize the danger in trashing a candidate's military service, especially when that candidate's opponent - i.e. Barack Obama, never served.

Think about it. Your OP is sadly misdirected. McCain has plenty more wrong about him other than whether he flew and was shot down in a fighter, a bomber, or in an attack aircraft.

[DangerDave921]

14. Geez - John Kerry redux

All this junk makes me think back to 2004 and the Swifties. Parsing out exactly what Kerry did at what time. Was he in Cambodia or Vietman on Christmas 1968. How did he earn those purple hearts? Did he throw them away or not? And the outcry on DU was that the Swifites were challenging Kerry's war record and patriotism. The guy fought in wartime. Isn't that enough?

With McCain, he flew combat missions. Whether you say fighter pilot or bomber pilot, the guy flew in combat, was shot down, and was kept a POW for years. He risked his life in wartime. If you scream up and down that he's not really a fighter pilot, you are going to look petty. This kind of argument will not fly with mainstream Murika.

[KingFlorez]

18. The truth is the truth

Why do you consider the truth an attack? McCain shouldn't be given credit for what he isn't and this isn't the place to throw up a defense for him.

[Thothmes]

5. What do you call em when they fly F/A 18s.

OBTW, attack aircraft did engage in air to air combat in Vietnam. Not often but it did happen. Once you dump the bomb load the A-4 is a pretty agile aircraft.

[Rick Myers]

10. There was only 1 air-to-air kill recorded by the A-4 in Vietnam (and it wasn't McCain)

And McCain's Navy buddies called him ACE, not because he got 5 kills, but because he lost 5 US Navy aircraft.

He flew 20 hours of combat and has 29 combat awards. That's 1.5 awards per hour in the cockpit.

[DevonRex]

12. How the hell did he manage that??? nt

[Thothmes]

23. Think you should check is list of medals

most are not combat awards. Those 29 medals were accumulated over a 26 year career in the Navy.

[El Supremo]

11. He crashed two planes on training flights

Two of them were A-1 Skyraiders




He had an A-4 Skyhawk blow up on the Forestall. Then his other A-4 was shot down over Hanoi.




Now rather than criticize McCain on his war record or flying ability, you could make a joke about him being old enough to have flown SPADs. You see the A-1 was originally designated as the AD. And the single place ADs were nicknamed "SPADs" by Navy people.

[City Lights]

13. As George would say, "Well there's one terrible pilot." nt

[Thothmes]

24. One of those spads got a MiG 19 kill in Vietnam

[trof]

17. Former fighter pilot* here. I agree.

*Sorta-kinda fighter pilot.
Reconnaissance/fighter.
RF-84/F
But it had an "F" in front of the number!
And 50 cals in the wings.
Buda-buda-buda-buda.
;-)

[suston96]

19. Bringing up McCain's service is very risky........

Wesley Clark said that McCain had no "executive experience" in the Navy. Really?

http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/553/

In 1975, McCain became executive officer of the group, which trained pilots and crew members for aircraft carrier service. The RAG, as it was known, had 1,000 people and 75 planes, which made it the Navy’s largest aviation squadron.

Eyebrows were raised when he became commanding officer a few months later. Some in the Navy suspected favoritism because he was the son and grandson of famous Navy officers.

But according to the author of a McCain biography and three people who served under McCain in the training group, he earned high marks for invigorating a unit that had been struggling with a fleet of broken planes.

“He was very inspirational,” said Bob Stumpf, a student pilot at the RAG who later became the leader of the Navy’s Blue Angel team. “He was just always personally involved in the goings-on of the squadron. He didn’t hide in his office.”

The energetic McCain, known in the unit as “Skipper,” frequently stopped by the maintenance shops and pilots’ “ready rooms” so he could stay in touch with the people he commanded.

Read the rest of it. Wesley Clark was not entirely correct.

[Jim Lane]

20. I think he crashed three, not four

El Supremo gives the breakdown in #11, above.

McCain lost five planes altogether, but, along with giving him a pass on the fifth (the shootdown), I'd have to give him a pass on the fourth (). His plane was one of those destroyed by the fire. McCain, however, did nothing to start the fire. He was just sitting in his plane on the deck of the aircraft carrier when the disaster occurred.

More detail, from :

(On July 29, 1967) an unguided 5-inch Mk-32 "Zuni" rocket, one of four contained in a LAU-10 underwing rocket pod mounted on a F-4 Phantom II, was accidentally fired due to an electrical power surge during the switch from external power to internal power.

The rocket flew across the flight deck, striking a wing-mounted external fuel tank on a A-4 Skyhawk awaiting launch, either aircraft No. 405, piloted by LCDR Fred D. White, or No. 416, piloted by future U.S. Senator and Presidential candidate, LCDR John McCain. The warhead's safety mechanism prevented it from detonating, but the impact tore the tank off the wing and ignited the resulting spray of escaping JP-5 fuel, causing an instantaneous conflagration. Other external fuel tanks overheated and ruptured, releasing more jet fuel to feed the flames which spread along the flight deck....

[Jazzgirl]

27. Google "Wet Start McCain" and see what you get. n/t

[RamboLiberal]

28. How many times does the wet start story have to be debunked here?

That story is bullshit.

Oh but it's on the internet so it must be true! :sarcasm:

Go look at the diagram of how the planes were spotted on the deck at this website (sorry the pic won't post) http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/cv-59/59f-0729.htm

McCain's plane is 416 in the diagram. The plane that fired the Zuni is 110. Now tell me how McCain's exaust which comes from the rear of a jet engine hit the plane that was aft and across the deck from McCain's plane?

If McCain is to blame for the Forrestal fire then I guess all the crap the Swiftboaters spread about Kerry was true as well. Heck they did better than just the internet. They even had commercials and a documentary produced by the Sinclair TV folks!

[caraher]

21. Say it with me, "We hold truth in higher regard than the Swiftboat Liars'

This means, first, getting the facts straight...

"even if you give him a pass on his shootdown, he still crashed four airplanes worth hundreds of millions of dollars during routine training flights."

Wrong. The Forrestal fire occurred on Yankee Station as the carrier was launching an alpha strike. Live weapons, no drill. And having your plane struck by a missile while sitting stationary on the deck is not "crashing" an airplane.

At most McCain scored three "own-goal" kills. A lousy record that it's fair to point out; but you don't do much for our credibility when you insist on fussing over a definition of "fighter pilot" yet either fail to get the facts straight about the circumstances of one of those losses or simply cannot count.

Second, I fully appreciate the distinction between fighters and light attack aircraft (the most accurate description of the A-4). But this is a non-issue for several reasons:

1. McCain has not, to my knowledge, claimed he was a "fighter pilot."
2. In general usage, the distinction is frequently not observed.
3. As pointed out before, designations are not as reliable a guide as one might think. The F-117 is not much of an aberration; the F-111 was really a supersonic medium bomber, the F-105 was really a supersonic light bomber (though certainly more air-to-air capable than the Scooter), yet I don't see any point in quibbling if their pilots are referred to as "fighter pilots."
4. It has absolutely no bearing on how one evaluates his war record. If from this moment on nobody referred to him as anything other than a "former naval aviator" or "strike pilot" or "attack pilot" or "bomber pilot" it doesn't change the facts of his career.

Give it a rest. Talk about the reasons he'd make a disastrous president rather than quibble over what his less precise cheerleaders choose to call what he did over 40 years ago.

[caraher]

22. Addendum...

"four airplanes worth hundreds of millions of dollars"

Even accounting for inflation you're not even close. Not that the planes were cheap by the standards of the day; but even four F-4 Phantoms wouldn't have run much more than $10 million. Wikipedia's A-4 article quotes a cost of $860,000 each for the first 500 production aircraft. Current planes are much, much more expensive than jets of that era.

Which reminds me of a projection someone did (as a joke) regarding the trend toward fewer, more capable and more expensive aircraft... within a few years the Air Force will consist of a just single aircraft costing half a trillion dollars (I'm making up the numbers here, but you get the idea).

[IndianaJones]

25. John McCain is a traitor and/or a coward. nt.

[RamboLiberal]

29. So the f'ing MSM are idiots

Big F'in deal. That won't hang McCain. Yeah there's a rivalry between fighter pilots and attack bomber pilots but who cares.

Tell me how many voters know the difference in military aircraft and really give a damn?

[madura]

32. interesting, it's almost this side of 'theft of valor'

not to point out that he was not a fighter pilot is lieing and using the credentials of people that were to promote your own sorry plane crashing ass for political purposes is quite despicable.

I'll bet CNN are lining up new reporters for this story. gonna work extra shifts, those best politicos in televison to cover this like the ace team they are - no wait, it's obama's nuts they are glommed onto for the next 4 days.

[Catchawave]

33. Does he claim he's a fighter pilot ?

If so, you have an argument. There are many "combat" pilots that flew all kinds of aircraft, including helicopters.

Guess I'm missing your point, why are you going here/there? So much more you can nail him with in his Senate years re: Armed Forces.

Links would be nice too :hi:

[11 Bravo]

34. I'll try this one more time.

I have nowhere stated that McCain ever claimed to be a fighter jock. I HAVE, however, pointed out that he has stood idly by while his supporters refer to him as such, and it just ain't so. Only the best pilots were assigned for fighter training, and that did not include Sidney McCain. Accepting the designation of honors which have not been awarded, or status which has not been earned, is perhaps THE cardinal sin for a military man or woman. McCain is doing precisely that, and that's my point.

[Catchawave]

35. Thanks for the clarification....

my husband's a combat veteran (VN,Beirut, GW1)... sorry I'm so sensitive for details. McCain's got bigger fish to attack, so to speak.

Would still like links to this:

"I HAVE, however, pointed out that he has stood idly by while his supporters refer to him as such , and it just ain't so."

Since vets may be the biggest swing vote block, you have to be careful framing the combat attacks. It's a "band of brothers" thing, you'd understand if you were a combat vet.

I know for sure, many vets are pissed at McCain for his military record IN THE SENATE, focus there.

Just trying to help :hi:

[caraher]

37. "Fighter pilot" and "elite pilot" are NOT synonymous

There's a principle known as "quality spread" that is used to avoid a situation where one entire part of the Navy (or other service) consists predominantly of "rejects." As I understand it, if you're first in your class then, yeah, you'll get your pick of specialties, but beyond that the "needs of the service" trump personal preference.

For an example of this, check out this Marine Corps site explaining how new officers will be distributed among different specialties. You'll notice that the two slots for aviation posts go to officers from the middle third of the class.

Another perspective comes from a bulletin board for pilots...

It used to be in the Navy that it was determined by class standing. #1 guy gets what he wants, #2 guy then chooses, then #3 guy etc. Problem was, most of the top half of the list wanted the same thing leaving certain aircraft communities with guys who were at, or near the bottom of the list. The Navy then adopted "quality spread" insuring all communities equal dibs on the pilots who did well in training. In theory, if the #1 guy went to jets, the last guy on the list did as well giving the jet community "average" numbers. We always joked that you either wanted to finish first in your class or last as you were sure to get jets either way. The #1 guy (generic) always got what he/she wanted, the rest were subject to the needs of the service and assignments were given to spread quality throughout all aircraft communities. I chose fighters largely because of the excitement and coolness factor (I was young). I didn't realize that there are far better choices if one wants to build time for an airline career. I left the Navy with far fewer hours than my peers did who flew the S3, A6, P3 or E2.

A friend of mine flew A-7s in the Navy and says that he got to fly jets because of his burst appendix! His appendix burst because in flight training he concealed his illness from the flight surgeon, figuring he was close to the end and he didn't want to risk washing out for medical reasons. His appendix won the argument, and after recovering from the emergency surgery that ensued he had to join the next class to complete flight school.

It turned out that the the available billets for the previous class were all either in transport or helos. I'm not sure whether his first choice was the "strike community" but he definitely wanted an assignment to jet combat aircraft. And by the end of his military career he did get a shot at flying "real fighters" when his Air Guard unit transitioned to F-16s.

I need remind nobody here that the current squatter at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. *can* legitimately lay claim to the title "fighter pilot" (if not "president"); yet I'd be equally surprised if anyone believes that also means he was an elite pilot. Similarly, if McCain had been shot down flying an F-4 or F-8 I doubt anyone on DU would be asserting that fighter pilots are somehow more special than other naval aviators!

Perhaps excepting McCain, the system weeds out the incompetent pilots before they wind up in the cockpits of jets likely to kill them. Some pilots go on to become elite pilots through experience and intensive training in programs like Top Gun. But they do so because they stand out among those in their specialties, not because the sorting hat put all the honchos in Gryffindor to fly fighters while shuffling the rest off to Hufflepuff to fly bombers, tankers, etc. Remember Scott O'Grady, the guy shot down over Bosnia in an F-16? I'm glad he survived but he was clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed... hence his callsign, "Zulu." (Think "Zero" of Beetle Bailey.) There are both mediocre fighter pilots and highly skilled attack pilots...

Bottom line: assignments have as much to do with circumstance as skill and desire. With McCain, the circumstance of having two generations of admirals among his direct ancestors may or may not have been relevant to his billet; but my main point is that the notion of a strict talent hierarchy that starts with fighter jocks and descends from there is a myth.