McCain was NOT a fighter pilot and NOT a war hero: “I am a war criminal,” [John McCain] confessed

[DogPoundPup]

Story; “John McCain was a fighter pilot.”

Fact; No, in fact he wasn’t.

“A fighter pilot is a military aviator trained to engage other aircraft and typically pilots a fighter aircraft. Fighter pilots undergo specialized training in aerial warfare and dogfighting (close range aerial combat).” Wikipedia.

John McCain flew A-4 Skyhawks almost exclusively for his entire military career. the A-4 is a light bomber aircraft, also known as the “Tinkertoy Bomber”. This is what he was in when there was the accident on the Uss Forrestal and this is the kind of plane he was flying when he was shot down and subsequently captured.

There was only one confirmed air to air kill involving the A-4 during the entire Vietnam War, and that was on May 1, 1967 by by LCDR Theodore R. Swartz with an unguided air-to-air missle.

These are not “fighter planes”, they are bombers. And John McCain was a “bomber pilot” not a fighter pilot. This is what John McCain, the “war hero” did in Vietnam before being shot down and, according to his own testimony, cutting a deal with his Vietnamese after 3 days in captivity.

John McCain worked feverishlyto prevent the North Vietnamese from releasing their records of the POW camps as well as the debriefing records of all the returning POWs. When the POW_MIA movement was attempting to find missing soldiers after the war McCain worked to suppress their access to any records about the camps. What exactly did McCain have to hide?

Read the entire article and view videos at http://willyloman.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/the-real-mccain-part-one-not-a-fighter-pilot/

[Stand and Fight]

1. Recommended and Kicked.

Because we are trying to defeat John McCain -- not just for the sake of winning, but for the body and soul of our nation.

[DogPoundPup]

3. The last paragraph in the article:

<This is the real John McCain, boys and girls, and yes, this kind of information is critical to his eligibility for the highest office in the world. Ones performance during military service is a clear indicator of how the individual will hold up under the pressure of the White House and if McCain is less of a hero than everyone would have us believe, shouldn’t we know it now?>

[300warriors]

57. I don't know why Obama repeatedly calls him a hero

On February, Obama said:

“John McCain is an American hero,” Mr. Obama said before a huge, cheering crowd. “We honor his service to our nation. But his priorities don’t address the real problems of the American people, because they are bound to the failed policies of the past.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/13/us/politics/13assess.html

[MadMaddie]

58. After all it is Politics....Obama's statement is pratical...

if he outright attacks McCain and his hero status he would suffer the same attack as Gen Wes Clark did. Obama is better off letting his surrogates raise these kind of issues. Obama cannot be seen as attacking any former or current military personel...

It's like a game of chess.....strategy over stupidity.

[300warriors]

59. Clark called McCain a hero and sitll received sharp attacks

I disagree that being attacked depends on the treatment of McCain as a hero or not.

Clark said: "I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands of millions of others in the Armed Forces as a prisoner of war." ...

[LiberalFighter]

60. Recognize the fact he was a POW but don't call him a hero.

No reason to suggest McCain is a hero.

[Politicalboi]

100. Your right

Just like nobody says Bush is dumb. We all know it but nobody in the media says it.

[BearSquirrel2]

104. Obama needs to attack on flip flops ...

I heard a "fair and balanced" article on NPR this morning that made my blood boil. They are comparing one for one deliberate misinterpretations of Barack Obama's statements vs. full blown outright flip-flops by John McCain.

Basically, they're trying to make McCain's flip-flop record disappear. The Obama camp needs to attack McCain on flip flops ASAP before the idea is cemented in people's minds that they are both equally wafflers.

[RaleighNCDUer]

89. The same reason that those wanting reunification after the civil war

spoke of the confederate soldiers as 'gallant fighters for their cause' instead of 'traitors' which was certainly more accurate. It mollifies the partisans of the other side who would otherwise redouble their efforts to oppose you.

[pipi_k]

92. Well, compared to Bush

he IS a hero.

He actually did whatever he did (and it doesn't really matter to me what he did or didn't do) while in Vietnam, while a few years later Chimpy flew around the skies over Texas (when he wasn't goofing off or going AWOL) protecting us from terrorist geese shitting on our golf courses.

I think McCain deserves kudos just for being in Vietnam when so many of his colleagues and contemporaries in the government got cushy assignments or deferments for ass boils...


PS...I'm not a McCain supporter by any means...just thought I'd mention that

[momrois]

110. Well, I guess if you compare him to Bush

But I still hesitate to give hime kudos for being in Vietnam. The ONE and ONLY reason he was in Vietnam was to burnish up his resume to impress/surpass his dad and granddad. He wanted to be an Admiral.

[1Hippiechick]

115. Obama didn't serve - just another reason he is unpatriotic - RW just say NO to FACTS....

Repuke minds are made up, and there would be no changing because they are not going to listen to facts. They would chalk it up to politics and crucify Obama as UNPATRIOTIC, particulary since O didn't serve in the military.

[shintao]

131. MCCAIN DOUBLE DIPPING VA DISABILITY PENSION!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, I have been a member here for some time, but I do not have enough posts to start my own thread. Please move to a new topic thread for all to see. Liable to be missed here.

I got a few questions to ask of the VA Moucher. How is McCain getting twice the amount (Double Dipping) on his 100% VA pension?

How can McCain call himself 100% disabled and hike in & out of the Grand Canyon, and have Doctors testify he is 100% fit to be president?

How can McCain call himself 100% disabled and hold down a full time job in Congress 3,000 miles from home?

I think those are fair questions that should be asked of all media outlets until they start responding to these charges.

A team of doctors from the Mayo Clinic declared Friday that there appears to be no physical reason why Sen. John McCain, the 71-year-old presumed Republican presidential candidate, could not carry out the duties of the office.

"Sen. McCain enjoys excellent health and displays extraordinary energy, and, while it is impossible to predict any person's future health.

The doctors described a number of health issues faced by McCain, many of them typical for a man of his age but at least one of them potentially serious.

McCain has had four malignant melanomas removed. Three of them -- on his left shoulder, left arm and left nasal wall. a fourth melanoma proved to be invasive and was removed from his left lower temple in 2000,

McCain has many of the risk factors associated with the cancer: light skin, light-colored eyes and a history of excessive sun exposure.

McCain has also been treated for other less serious skin cancers,

He has had four small kidney stones in his right kidney and a number of small benign cysts in both kidneys.

McCain noticed blood in his urine, and doctors found stones in his bladder....they surgically removed enlarged prostate tissue, which was the cause of the bleeding.

McCain first had an adenomatous colon polyp removed in the 1990s,...the most recent test carried out last month revealed six of the polyps...the polyps were all of the type that are potentially precancerous.

McCain has also been treated for high lipid levels.

He broke both arms and a leg when he ejected and spent the next 5½ years as a prisoner of war in Hanoi. During that time, he was beaten and tortured repeatedly, suffering fractures of both shoulders. Because he received no treatment for his fractures, they healed improperly, leaving him with reduced range of motion for his shoulders, arms and right knee.

McCain takes a daily aspirin to prevent formation of blood clots.

McCain's fasting blood sugar value was described as "impaired."

McCain, a two-pack-a-day smoker for 25 years.

The former pilot also sometimes experiences occasional dizziness when he stands, a benign condition called positional vertigo. McCain's father died of a stroke at age 70.

McCain released his tax return for 2007 on Friday, he separately disclosed that he received a pension of $58,358 that was not listed as income on his return.

On Monday, McCain's staff identified the retirement benefit as a "disability pension" and said that McCain "was retired as disabled because of his limited body movements due to injuries as a POW." Yet he hikes the Grand Canyon!

Certain types of military and veterans pensions are either partially or completely tax-exempt, depending on the seriousness of the disability. In McCain's case, the exemption is 100%.

Veteran with Spouse, Two Parents and Child = $3,000 X 12 months = $36000.


Double Dipper McCain
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/22/nation/na-pension22

POW BENEFITS
The amount that is paid to a former POW who has qualified at the full 100% rating is $2,287.00 (tax-free) per month.
http://www.axpow.org/entitlements.htmhttp://www.axpow.org/entitlements.htm


.......Coming to a neighborhood near you.......

[Thothmes]

134. McCains receives no VA pension

His pension has absolutly noting to do with the Veterans Administration. He is a retired officer of the U.S.Navy. His pension is what he would have been entitled to based on a retirement of an O6 with 27 years of service. His is tax free because at the time of his retirement, Navy physicians determined that he was 100% disabled. I do not believe that that finding is subject to review after retirement. His monthly check comes via the Navy Finance center in Cleveland. He does not receive any cash benefits from the Veterans Administration.

[blondeatlast]

4. Not just our nation--the entire world, He cannot wrest his Viet Nam demons--I know,

I've been his constituent for my entire voting life.

[patrice]

2. Thanks for setting the record straight. The un-colored FACTS are not a personal attack. nt

[DogPoundPup]

5. I'd really like to see this Scott Creighton McCain bio in full view

day after day with someone posting it daily so EVERYONE OF US here at DU is educated on what McCainiac REALLY IS and not what the White House talking point serving MSM portray him as.

[calimary]

107. This should be the response to any of those anti-Obama emails or pro-bush or pro-mcsame emails

you get from "well-meaning" friends who now worry that Obama IS a Muslim and that Hillary STILL murdered Vince Foster or that bush is the closest thing to a Second Coming. OR a REALLY obnoxious one about "Why I Love a Cowboy." Ever seen THAT one? Man, that's a REAL cutie. Gushes almost to the point of vomiting about that ol' "rugged individualism" and "lone horseman" "riding tall in the saddle" and how all-American and patriotic and rhapsodic and courageous and quiet and self-effacing heroes straight outta the Old West, and wistful about ronald reagan and then at the end, it gets around to extolling his "rightful heir" george w bush.

I wrote back in rebuttal to that one about how bush couldn't possibly be a cowboy or heir to reagan because he's a-skeeered of horses!!!


I also send THIS OTHER rebuttal around:

WAR HERO? Meet the Real John McCain: North Vietnam's Go-To Collaborator

http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn04192008.html


AND this:

THE WIFE JOHN MCCAIN LEFT BEHIND

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024927/The-wife-John-McCain-callously-left-behind.html


I swear By All That Is Holy - THIS is what you do when you get one of those emails. HIT BACK, AND HIT BACK HARD!!!!!

You may piss somebody off, but

You just might make somebody think.

You may also sow some ALL-IMPORTANT SEEDS OF DOUBT in someone's mind.

You may further reach and provide solidarity to one or more of the email recipients in those chains somewhere - who agrees with YOU and hates those emails, too, but is too polite to say anything about it. AND you will have armed THAT person with good rebuttals also!!!

And finally, you ALMOST certainly will stop those emails from coming.

ESPECIALLY...

If you send your responses to EVERYBODY on that email trail, including whoever forwarded the original to the sender who sent it to you and that whole list, and whoever forwarded it to him/her and THAT whole list. I send it to EVERY email address I find, as far down the chain as I can go.

It's like making your home less likely to be burglarized by doing all those cautionary and unpredictable and unexpected things like varying your routine, leaving lights on (preferably in odd, unpredictable order), having an alarm system and/or a dog. You make it a hassle to break into your house.

Likewise, you make it a big hassle to try to "get the truth" to you because it's gonna mean the "well-meaning" knuckle-dragger or Pox/limbaugh-lover who wanted to "save your soul" just ran into somebody who does NOT care to be too polite to say anything about it. Folks like this are used to NOT being challenged. They're accustomed by now to being able to spew and either people ARE too polite or don't want to get involved or would rather not bother or may be too intimidated or even discouraged to speak up and fight back. People who send stuff like this around tend to be smug in their own little wrong-headed convictions and assume there simply IS no rebuttal. They need to be taught otherwise.

People like those described above NEED to be shown, the hard way, THAT THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES FOR DOING THIS, that they won't be able to spread this shit without a fight, and since this is a passive-aggressive thing to do, sending an email, they really, down deep, don't want confrontation. All but one of the people who sent me this shit were/are the type of people who seldom, if ever, bring up this kind of thing in face-to-face conversation (because most of those encounters are non-political, strictly civilian, and there's no way to tell who in the encounter is "with 'em or ag'in 'em"). It won't be worth it because they'll get their cage seriously rattled for trying to "get through to you." I've been through a few of these by now and this is exactly what I have experienced first-hand.

I think this is part of what's meant by Psy-Ops - or destabilizing the enemy. You change things up. Do something they don't expect. They won't have a coping mechanism for it that they can just default back into so comfortably anymore, and you will have knocked them off their game. We learned that in sparring class. Jab, jab, jab, jab, jab, jab (oooh, I got it, this guy hits jabs), jab, jab, BANG! Spinning round kick! Hit 'em back, because they've had nearly three decades of having-it-their-way. They've been living in a no-hit-backs-allowed world for far too long, and time's up! It's left them feeling entitled and spoiled by one on-going condition that's been prevalent over all that time: that liberals have been pummeled so much that they've been broken, and, thus rendered this bullied and intimidated and fearful, they won't fight back. They're cowed. Impotent. Fish-in-a-barrel. To be toyed with and messed with and fucked with.

NOT ANYMORE.

HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!!

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DogPoundPup]

7. What's with the STFU?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

8. Have you ever served in the military?

I'm guessing the answer to that is "no"

[DogPoundPup]

9. Do children's, husbands', father, uncles, grandfathers,brothers-in-laws who did, count?

Sorry if I've offended you in any way by posting this and I don't mean to demean his service but it should be the based on truth otherwise he is the one demeaning what his service was...just attempting to reveal the truth.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[speedoo]

15. I've served. I'm a Vietnam Vet, and I agree with the OP.

Just because you've worn the uniform, does not entitle you to your own set of facts.

[DogPoundPup]

16. I don't consider my children or any of the rest of my family who served

war criminals so I don't know what you are reading and I will gladly leave you alone with whatever idea you've derived from this article if that's what you want.

[speedoo]

18. Ignoring him is wise.

I have no idea what his problem is, and I thank you for your OP.

[DogPoundPup]

23. I appreciate the service yibbehobba gave and yours as well speedoo!

My sincere thanks to both of you for having the unfailing strength it requires to serve in a war and the extremely good fortune to be able to return home to all who love you. Thank you is never really enough but that is all I am able to offer to you.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

119. I have never served in the military.

I come from a long line of pacifists and draft-dodgers. But I have a lot of dear friends who've served, and that is why I find this line of attack - especially attempting to make hay of his "confession" after being tortured - so appalling. It was wrong when the Repubs did it to Kerry, and it is wrong now.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

27. Continue to make an issue of his war record and call him a war criminal.

Then you will understand what I'm talking about.

[speedoo]

29. McCain called HIMSELF a war criminal.

You should get your facts straight before attacking people on DU.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

69. You do understand, of course...

...that he was quoting the confession he was forced to sign WHILE HE WAS BEING TORTURED. Do you get why this isn't a good line of attack now?

[tekisui]

74. But, McCain supports torture, now.

Either it works to get intell, and McCain spoke truth. Or, it is torture and all those who order it and administer it should be tried for War Crimes.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

78. By all means attack his position on torture.

But don't do it with knowingly disingenuous bullshit like "McCain admits he's a war criminal."

[Joe Chi Minh]

109. By endorsing torture, McCain is tacitly admitting that he is a war criminal. Indeed,

he is, in effect, expressly and openly admitting to the American people and to the world at large, that he is a war criminal.
Don't seek to minimise the enormity of the crime by quibbling. That is more lamentably disingenuous bullshit by an order of magnitude.

[Jackpine Radical]

97. THERE is the line of attack:

McCain supports the use of torture even though he knows from his own tragic personal experience that torture can be used to extract false confessions, such as when the North Vietnamese tortured him into signing a statement that he was a war criminal.

This approach does two things simultaneously--it brings the discourse into current relevance, and it puts his "heroism" into context.

[Skittles]

67. it counts for them

not for you

[patrice]

12. Telling FAIRY tales about military service =/= Honor. I have served and a many of my Family

have and are serving.

The TRUTH about service is what they Need. That which is flawed CAN still be worthy of our Honor. Honor cannot be based on false-hoods.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

82. Okay.

So you're saying that if one of your family were captured and tortured, that any confession extracted from them during this time would be valid and "the truth." Because that's what the OP appears to be asserting, either due to ignorance of the origin of that quote, or deliberate obfuscation.

[Vickers]

105. If they were tortured, and then SUPPORTED torture, I'd think they were dumbasses.

But hey, that's just me.

:eyes:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

113. Whether or not he supports torture is beside the point of the OP.

Again, I think it's completely legitimate to attack his stand on torture, as it's one of his biggest, most hypocritical flip-flops and it's on an issue that is *supposedly* very near and dear to his heart.

However, asserting that McCain "claimed to be a war criminal" without divulging that the statement was part of a confession gained through torture, and then suggesting that this is "the truth about McCain" and a useful line of attack is downright silly.

[Vickers]

116. I wasn't replying to the OP.

Hope this helps.

[speedoo]

11. K&R. Thanks for posting this. nt

[DogPoundPup]

20. You're welcome ... thanks~

[mitchum]

13. Hey, dropping bombs on women and children is heroic

kinda
sorta

[Triana]

14. WHY is he / why did he advocate hiding those POW/MIA records?

Why?

[MH1]

30. Actually, that part is untrue, to the best of my knowledge.

There is a group of people - one of the ringleaders is named Ted Sampley - who were making money off the tragedy of soldiers lost in Vietnam. The POW/MIA Select Committee - that John McCain served on and John Kerry chaired - investigated and reported how to close the POW/MIA issue with Vietnam so that relations could be normalized. In the process, and in the committee's final report, they debunked many false sightings and rumors, and also shed light on how the families were being taken advantage of.

Sampley was behind some of the smear attacks against John Kerry in 2004, and continuing since. Apparently he didn't like his profits being infringed on. So now he is training his vengeance on John McCain. That is where all this stuff about McCain "covering up" POW MIA investigations is coming from - someone who didn't like his fraudulent cottage industry being shut down.


http://www.miafacts.org/money.htm - much more of interest at that site. The site author is a retired Colonel who served in Vietnam and also in DIA and DPMO working with POW/MIA cases. So yes, he has his own agenda - to defend his own work and that of his colleagues. But he isn't a political hack, just a retired grunt. I think he's far more credible than Sampley and Sampley's cronies.

[willyloman]

35. Check out...

First of all, check out Sydney Schanberg of ABP News, that's the link I put in the article. It makes no mention of the person you mention, Ted Sampley, but it does talk about McCain working against the efforts of a lot of family members and friends of missing soldiers. It talks about McCain's opposion to the "Truth Bill" of 1989;

"Bitterly opposed by the Pentagon, “The Truth Bill” got nowhere. It was reintroduced in the next Congress in 1991 — and again disappeared. Then, suddenly, out of the Senate, birthed by the Arizona senator, a new piece of legislation emerged. It was called “The McCain Bill.” This measure turned “The Truth Bill ” on its head. It created a bureaucratic maze from which only a fraction of the available documents could emerge. And it became law. So restrictive were its provisions that one clause actually said the Pentagon didn’t even have to inform the public when it received intelligence that Americans were alive in captivity."

Douglas Valentine, from Counter Punch
"Hopper’s son, Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Earl Pearson Hopper was, like McCain, shot down over North Vietnam. Hopper the younger, however, was declared “Missing in Action.” Stemming from the loss of his son, the elder Hopper co-founded the National League of Families, an organization devoted to the return of Vietnam War POWs."

Notice, not one mention of the discredited Sampley, which you mention.

" There are no public records from other POWs to confirm McCain’s self-aggrandizing claims, but his detractors, like fellow POWs Ted Guy and Gordon “Swede” Larson, and Colonel Hopper, have yet to be discredited or silenced by McCain’s PR team."

[MH1]

44. Sydney Schanberg lost credibility with his smear of John Kerry in 2004

I did a lot of research then and found the MIA Facts site. I checked out a lot of information and decided that Schanberg was probably just roped in by the falsehoods of the liars club led by Sampley et al.

There is a page on Hopper: http://www.miafacts.org/hopper.htm

As for the rest, well for me there is a preponderance of evidence that supports this: John Kerry and John McCain both acted honorably and with good intentions to bring closure for many families on what happened to their loved ones. There is still active work to pursue what real leads do surface in Vietnam, as with other recent wars: http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/news/news_releases.htm.

Disclaimer: I served in the military. Although I loathe John McCain's politics and believe his presidency would be an unmitigated disaster, I don't think it is any more appropriate to attack his service than it is to attack John Kerry's military service, OR than attacks on John Kerry's exact choice of words in his 1971 SFRC testimony. In all cases we have no evidence that either man acted with other than their best selves, and I can certainly say that in the case of Kerry's service both in the war and in his 1971 testimony, he did better than I would have under similar circumstances.

There are many, many reasons to oppose John McCain. Trashing his service is NOT helpful.

[willyloman]

46. I'm not "attacking his service"

Since when is calling a bomber pilot a bomber pilot "attacking his service"? For that matter, just how did Gen. Wes Clark "attack his service" either?

What I want is the same thing republicans wanted when Kerry ran, since you brought him up... and that is access to McCain's FULL military records; not just the 19 pages that list his medal awards.

A military career is an important glimpse into how a person will behave under extreme pressure; like say, being president, perhaps.

[Thothmes]

125. In Naval Terminology he is an Attack Pilot, not a bomber

pilot. At the time the Navy did not fly any "bombers"

[willyloman]

49. Well, I went to the MIA "Facts" site...

...and I have to tell you, I am not impressed.

Aside from just calling people names like "screwball" and "nuts" and "liars" he doesn't seem to offer a great deal of information.

In fact, he mentions that he wrote some stories about a group called "Minnesota Won't Forget POW/MIA" and the lawyer for the group threatened a lawsuit against him for slander, so he took the stuff down.

I'll give you a hint: If it's true, and well researched to show it is true, you don't take things down because people threaten you with slander suits. Slander is when you are deliberately trying to mislead people about a group.

So, by him admitting that he took down articles he wrote, that tells me a great deal about the site you are citing here.

[FightingIrish]

17. He actually didn't even start off as a jet jockey.

Getting orders to flight training even though he was fourth from the bottom in his class at the Naval Academy is at best unlikely and may have been the result of his father's high rank. He must have done pretty poorly in Pensacola since his first assignment was to an A-1 Skyraider squadron. This is the single-engine prop plane that we were giving to the South Vietnamese.

[tuvor]

19. A comment from the link you provided: A4 "as much a fighter as the F15 and F16"

Comment #4:

My dad flew the A4 and it is as much a fighter as the F15 and F16(which I flew) that came later. All A4 pilots went through the same dogfighting training that later F15 and F16 pilots were exposed to. All modern fighters are designed to carry bombs and be able to fight there way to the target. Had he flown a B17 you could call him a bomber pilot, flying an A4 makes him a fighter pilot. It was THE fighter of it’s day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-4_Skyhawk

As for whether McCain's a war criminal, well, if he says he is, I'll take him at his word.

[The River]

33. Technically Speaking

F is for Fighter as in F-16
B is for Bomber as in B-1
A is for Attack as in A-4

The A-4 attack bomber was what the Navy
used to bomb "targets" in Viet Nam.
I never saw them armed with anything but bombs.
Our F-8's flew fighter cover for the bombers.

I worked near enough to the pilots to overhear
them joking about bombing a water buffalo and
reporting it as a "food depot" or a man on a bicycle
reported as a "mechanized personal carrier". It was all about
the body count.

They were brave and or crazy for flying onto carriers
but they chose to do it. They were pampered frat boys
for the most part. They had 2 to a room quarters and concierge
service provided by a division of Filipino "stewards".
They dined on fine china with linen napkins while the ships crew
ate from tin trays and slept 20 to a room.

We were all part of an immoral and probably illegal war.
We weren't heroes. We were just naive cogs in a Red,
White and Blue painted war machine operated then, as now,
by the military industrial media complex through their
bought and paid for politicians.

[Thothmes]

127. That is how officers on all Naval vessels lived

When I first went aboard a destroyer, we slept two to a stateroom, had stewards that polished our shoes, made up or bunks and served us in the Wardroom.
This is how Navy vessels operated for centuries. OBTW, not a frat boy in the crowd.

[willyloman]

37. A-4 vs F-15/ F-16 they are not the "same"

If it was “the fighter of the day” how come there was only one confirmed kill with a A-4 through-out the entire Vietnam War? In fact, I don’t think they were equiped with guided missles. And they are listed as “Light Bombers”.

“My dad flew the A4 and it is as much a fighter as the F15 and F16(which I flew) that came later.” Really?

“The McDonnell Douglas (now Boeing) F-15 Eagle is an all-weather tactical fighter designed to gain and maintain air superiority in aerial combat“ wiki on F-15

“The Fighting Falcon is a dogfighter with numerous innovations including a frameless, bubble canopy for better visibility, side-mounted control stick to ease control while under high g-forces, and reclined seat to reduce the effect of g-forces on the pilot. It was also the first fighter aircraft deliberately built to sustain 9-g turns. It has a thrust-to-weight ratio greater than one, providing enough power to climb and accelerate vertically - if necessary.<7> Although the F-16’s official name is “Fighting Falcon”, it is known to its pilots as the “Viper”, Wki on F-16

“Skyhawks were the Navy’s primary light bomber over North Vietnam…”
“The Douglas A-4 Skyhawk was an American attack aircraft originally designed to operate from United States Navy aircraft carriers.”
“Ground-attack aircraft are military aircraft designed to attack targets on the ground and are often deployed as close air support for, and in proximity to, their own ground forces.” Wiki on A-4 aircraft and “attack aircraft” link.

Ergo, per your suggestion of checking with Wiki, the A-4 is NOT the same as the F-15 or the later F-16 which were desiogned as “Fighter Aircraft”.

[tuvor]

45. Those were not my comments.

I tried to make it clear that they're from the comments to be found at the link the OP provided.

I appreciate your adding your two cents to clarify things, but the suggestion to check with Wikipedia is not mine.

[willyloman]

47. You are correct. sorry...

I was simply reposting a responce I put up on my site to Amanda when she made the comment that you put up here. Sorry, I should have edited that part of it.

[tuvor]

48. No problem, willyloman.

Thanks for clearing things up. And welcome to DU! :hi:

[patrice]

41. Thank you for this insight. nt

[chat_noir]

21. Vietnam War iconic image

napalm......





McCain: "I am a war criminal."

[chat_noir]

26. The A-4E

The A-4E was armed with two internal 20mm cannons and could carry additional guns in external pods. With three stores stations available in the A-4C and five in the A-4E ‘Echo, Marine pilots could deliver approximately 8,500 pounds of ordnance–iron bombs weighing up to 1,000 pounds, napalm, Zuni semi-guided rockets, cluster bombs, and unguided rockets.




Question: What would you call a Muslim who managed to fly a Cessna over Central Park, dropping Napalm on perfectly innocent civilians?

Answer: A terrorist.

Question: What would you call an American, flying an A-4 Skyhawk over the Vietnamese countryside, dropping napalm on innocent civilians?

Answer: A war hero.


(Funny, how that works.)



Question: What do you suppose would happen if the Napalm-dropping Muslim were to be shot down and captured (alive) in New York City?

Answer: He would be detained, tortured, and executed. (that is...if he were to survive his initial arrest.)

Question: What would happen to the guy who did the same thing in Vietnam, in the Skyhawk?

Answer: He'd live to become the United States presidential front-runner for the Republican party.



from The Huffington Post: posted 04/01/2008 at 15:42:36

[yy4me]

22. Serving in the armed forces is noble and no-one would take

away the fact that McCain served his country and gave up five years of his life. BUT...and I know about the don't start the sentence stuff) I fail to see how this credential makes him qualified to be president. Good resumes abound across the country. Plenty of men and women have far more impressive qualifications.

I am 65, my bones creak, my brain seems to come to a complete halt at times. I am healthy, no real vices. I'm reasonably well educated and damn smart enough to know that John McCain is too OLD to be in consideration for this job. It is another set up folks. The key to this one will be the choice for VP. It is another set-up like the current ****-darth vader team. It will be the second in command running the show. I'd bet my bottom dollar that should he win, the stress of the job will put him out of commission in no time.

In my mind, McCain is the sacrificial goat for the republican herd.

[DogPoundPup]

25. Well said,

and exactly right on with McCain being merely the talking head for the Republicans. No corrections or improvements, just carry-on with what the quagmire and further blowing up of the M.E. as the neo-cons have started with Lil Bush's stumbling, mumbling talking head.

[glitch]

31. Agreed. I anxiously await their VP choice. nt

[djp2]

63. PREDICTION

McCain will pick Romney as VP, Then at end of September to mid Oct., will become "Deathly ill" or even "die?!?".
Repugs will then have Romney as Presidential candidate, who will pick Giuliani or even Huckabee as new VP. McCain will have taken the beating for the Repugs, and the new candidates won't have time to get beaten up before the elections, and will have NEW less BUSHy platform to operate from.

[patrice]

42. It's also about identifying their hardest core base during all of this crossover etc.

They're going to lose and they need to know who's going to stick with them anyway, hence the McCain candidacy.

[RamboLiberal]

24. George McGovern was not a fighter pilot

He was a bomber pilot. So is McGovern less of a pilot? Is McGovern a war criminal? After all those B-24 bombs didn't always fall just on military targets.

This attack on McCain is going to go nowhere and will backfire on Dems if tried. I hope no 527 will be stupid enough to try to run with this.

But getting back to McGovern at least he had the sense to be against a war that shouldn't have been fought and would turn first to diplomacy instead of war like McCain.

I say defeat McCain on the issues and quit trying to do a very questionable swiftboat on him.

[Zynx]

28. In fact, WWII bombing was much more targetted on civilian areas than Vietnam bombing.

[global1]

32. Do We Really Want A Viet Nam Vet With Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome In The WH?.......nt

[NattPang]

34. No.

we don't.

[Major Hogwash]

39. No, mainly because John McCain is a temper tantrum looking for a place to happen.

A couple of weeks ago I made a comment about McCain backhanding a civilian that was trying to find out what had happened to her brother who had disappeared in Vietnam many years before.
The story included a first person account of a woman that had been backhanded by McCain when he ran into her in the hall.
The story is not only true, but it is accurate.
Yet, people here said, "McCain can't raise his arms that high."

I wonder if those same people were watching Keith Olbermann's program on Thursday night.
They showed a montage of clips with Bush and McCain waving to crowds, and lo' and behold, there was little Johnny McCain, waving to the crowd, with his hand clear above his shoulder!!

End of that stupid, ridiculous argument.
If McCain can lift his arm above his shoulder to wave at crowds, he sure as hell can lift his arm up high enough to backhand someone.

[patrice]

43. I've been noticing how often we see him in that "christ-on-a-cross" pose. Don't know

whether he can raise his hands above his shoulders or not, but it IS interesting how often you see him photographed with his arms extended.

[BearSquirrel2]

106. Bobby Knight strategy ...

I'm kinda surprised that the press hasn't picked up on the fact that he is a hothead and tried to deliberately provoke him as sports journalists did to Bobby Knight.

Sending folks in with hidden cameras asking obnoxious questions and trying to get McCain to blow would be a good strategy. The video would be a slam dunk.

[RamboLiberal]

65. I was reading tonight that one reason Kerry parsed out

his military records was he had/has PTSD. Was in book Machiavelli's Shadow: The Rise and Fall of Karl Rove. Remember Teresa Heinz Kerry has noted how Kerry woke up in nightmares from his Vietnam service.

I'm not defending McCain here and I think he shouldn't be in the WH b/c of his temper and a ton of other issues.

But PTSD alone should not be an issue - otherwise then Kerry is also unfit for the WH.

[Kokonoe]

83. PTSD is not the problem

Its what the person who has it does with it.
John McCain is caring the torch for George II to extend the failed mission.

Do we really want an old, man who spent years as POW hoping for the U.S. bombs to take charge of the bombs in Mesopotamia. spelling

[happyslug]

36. So McCain Confessed to a war crime, so did George Washington

Assassination is Murder, thus when George Washington admitted he had Joseph Coulon de Jumonville killed while a prisoner of war being held by Washington, Washington admitted to Murder of a POW which is a War Crime.

People forget that when George Washington was captured at Ft Necessity, in 1754, the French had him sign a document when he admitted he had Assassinated Joseph Coulon de Jumonville a few weeks earlier in the Junmonville affair. Washington would later claim that do to a Mis-translation (Washington never did learn to speak French) he had admitted to killing the Joseph Coulon de Jumonville but he would NOT have sign the confession if he new the word used was "Assassinated" not Killed. The French took the later as written and had it published right afterward as what we in the US call the "French and Indian War" went into full swing.

The Jumonville Affair:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Jumonville_Glen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Coulon_de_Jumonville

Thus McCain confessing to a War Crime puts him in the same group as George Washington.... What is the next comparison with George, that McCain fathered a Child to a Woman while married to another? George Washington was charged with the "Crime" of fathering a child out of wedlock in Bedford County during the Whiskey Rebellion. He paid off the woman without admitting he was the father (Permitted at that time). The amount was about what someone of his status and Wealth would have been expected to pay if they had actually been "convicted" of the crime. One of the old Jokes about Washington was he was the Father of the Country, in more ways then one.

Side Note: The Crime of Bastardy had existed since the time of Elizabeth I, the reason it was a "crime" was that under English law, the only time the Attorney General could file an action for another is the action was criminal in nature. Since the attorney general was the only attorney willing to take such cases (Most cases did NOT bring in enough money for most attorneys given that the Fathers were generally as poor as the Mothers) English law required it to be "criminal in nature". Thus Bastardy was a technical crime, but unlike any other crime it was possible to compromise out of it, if the mother was paid for the cost of bring up the child. It is the state of today's Domestic Relations Courts, but Domestic Relations would NOT become the norm till late in the 1800s, Washington died in 1799, so he was charged under the older laws of Bastardy.

[IndianaGreen]

38. Point of order: McCain was NEVER a pilot!

McCain was a Naval aviator. Never call a naval aviator a pilot, they will take exception!

[RNdaSilva]

53. But no "Top Gun" for sure...

[JHB]

93. Just to mess with things...

"Top Gun" did use A-4s as the "aggressor" aircraft piloted by the trainers.

I don't have any information immediately available if their real-life counterparts flew the same aircraft.

Personally, I think the quibbling here over his calling himself a fighter pilot when he flew an A-4 is pointless and misleading. It wasn't as if he actually flew some tanker or cargo plane that never went near an active combat zone. McCain's missions put him "in the shit", and leave it to the pilots themselves to make any distinctions. They're the ones with the relevant expertise.

[druidity33]

40. McCain Lost 5 US NAVY aircraft!

here's the link for ya:

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com/cin_mccain_lost_five_u.htm



I think someone should ask McLame why he doesn't want anyone to read the debriefing documents of former POW/MIA vets, and why he hasn't released the entirety of his Military service record. (19 pages out of 600?)

Roughly 20 hours of combat missions and over 20 Medals for the guy... what did the people who didn't get shot down get?


There are a LOT of reasons to question McLame's qualifications, INCLUDING his Military Service record.




oh, k and freaking r....

[Thothmes]

128. The twenty medals cover

26 years of Naval service. Only a few are for his time in Hanoi or for his combat time.

[rasputin1952]

50. I will put this as simply as I can...

I respect McCain because he wore a military uniform. He did his duty, that's it.

I cannot, nor will I ever, call him a "hero".

Wes Clark was right when he stated that being shot down down not a presidential candidate make, (something we should have learned from GHWB).

McCain was a Navy pilot, he lost 6 planes over his career, he was 5th from the bottom of his class at Annapolis, almost got booted out...(odd how Admirals can stop such things). Came from a prominent family, divorced the woman he married who waited for him, and married a millionairess.

He has done nothing but take advantage of ever situation he has been capable of, to include using Goldwater, (who came to despise him), and is little more than a spoiled little monkey in a funny hat w/a tin cup.

[RNdaSilva]

55. I'm an old vet., about McCain's age.

Were I to comment on this issue I would copy and paste, plagiarize your words, and take them as my own.

One correction, in red: "Wes Clark was right when he stated that being shot down does not a presidential candidate make, (something we should have learned from GHWB)."

Brilliant summarization...now on to more succinct topics as to why a "no" on McCain.

Even if it's accurate, the denouncing of McCain's heroism, it will not fly politically...at least if spoken by politicians in Obama's camp. However, General Clark was accurate. And, it WAS NOT a denunciation of McCain's heroism, real or pretended. Some said that it was an "in-artful" statement. Haven't figured that one out yet. I thought it quite artful.

[rasputin1952]

56. Thank you for the correction...at my addled age, things

can get muddled...:hi:

[RNdaSilva]

66. I keep a USB memory card hung around my neck...

for those Alzheimer moments.

John and I have one thing in common, we tend to have lapses of memory.

[AlbertCat]

111. I cannot, nor will I ever, call him a "hero".

Me neither. But it's because the word "hero" means nothing now.... like the words "genius" and "artist"... all overused at inappropriate times for people who are none.

[caraher]

51. Useless language games

Was he a "Fighter Pilot (TM)?" Who cares! It has become accepted usage in the media to call any pilot of a small armed jet aircraft a "fighter pilot" even as the purists cringe. I think some of that came from the "not a pound for air-to-ground" mentality that developed in the Air Force. Many aircraft that saw service primarily as bombers have received "F" designations (F-105, F-111, F-117), and from late WWII the distinction between fighters and light attack aircraft has blurred.

Note that the Wikipedia definition of "fighter pilot" from the OP would leave out most pilots who flew fighter aircraft in Vietnam. Technological optimism convinced the military that the age of the dogfight was over forever. The aircrew trained under this view would more accurately be called "interceptor pilots." The Navy's Top Gun program was a direct response to the training deficiencies revealed by combat in the mid-late 1960s, and the Air Force took even longer to absorb those lessons into their own training. During that era, it was not uncommon for transport pilots and others definitely outside the "fighter community" to take a turn flying the "fast movers" over Vietnam.

The A-4 itself had bombing as its primary role; it was recognized, however, that in a pinch it could fly in an air-to-air role. In fact, for years A-4s have been used in fighter pilot training as "aggressor" aircraft, due to their (bomb-free) nimble performance and small size.

A friend who flew A-7s in the Navy in the '80s and later with the Air National Guard received air combat maneuver (ACM) training regularly. Light attack aircraft are expected to have some ability to defend themselves, and pilots received training accordingly. He has plenty of tales of "dissimilar" ACM, flying SLUFs (A-7s) against F-15s and obviously losing a lot! I think in almost 2 decades there was one time he managed to "tag" a front-line fighter in training. His last few years of flying his ANG unit transitioned to F-16s.

When the media start observing subtle distinctions among aircraft types and roles I'll agree we should pick at references to McCain as "fighter pilot."

I'm also loathe to criticize McCain for "cutting a deal" or doing anything he felt he needed to do in order to survive after being captured. If he is trumpeting some inflated tale of personal heroism he's doing so rather quietly.

We don't need to quibble over his Vietnam experience to establish what a disaster a McCain presidency would be. Even if he were the original Rambo, led a big breakout from the Hanoi Hilton and fed starving refugees as he made his way out of North Vietnam the fact remains that today's McCain has nothing to offer the country but more of the same pain. It's the kind of bullshit issue that makes for good "horse race" politics but in the end just winds up alienating voters who want substance.

[frogcycle]

87. HUH??

"...has become accepted usage in the media to call any pilot of a small armed jet aircraft a "fighter pilot" even as the purists cringe"

So when the media call a horse a cow, are you going to scoff at those who take exception?


There actually WERE fighter planes used in VN:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-4_Phantom_II

That an attack aircraftmay have been equipped with some limited capability of defending itself makes it no more a fighter plan than was the B-17 with its tail gunner to fend off fighter planes.

The first "hybrid" was the F/A-18 Hornet, introduced in the 80's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-18

It is a Fighter/Attack aircraft, capable of serious maneuvering in air-to-air combat and also of delivering bomb payloads and firing air-to-ground missiles.

From 1974 to 1986 the A-4 was used by the Navy's "Blue Angels" flight demonstration team.
Prior to that, the "Blues" had always used fighter-designation aircraft. When they switched to the F/A-18, they were able to add maneuvers to the show that the A-4 was not cabaple of executing.

Regardless of how someone chooses to spin it, McCain drove an attack aircraft, shuttling high explosives from a carrier to N. Vietnam. He was neither Snoopy nor the Red Baron.

[sampsonblk]

52. The guy served well under extremely bad conditions.

Why go beyond that?

[Binka]

64. Read The Thread.

He did no such thing. He is a FRAUD. He is a LOUSE. He is a LOSER. Is reading comprehension a problem for you?

[thincaboutit]

54. McCain is "Hot Headed"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_Dhxu-6l98

[Limelight]

61. Low Blow

This line of attack, while tempting, lacks a sh*tload of class. Let them hang you from the ceiling by your broken arms and see what you confess to. Moreover American law states that it is perfectly legal and permissible for capture personnel to confess to crimes they did not commit in order to stop torture. There is ZERO shame in it.

John McCain, who we all know did in deed fly fighters at one time in his career, was a fighter pilot flying a bomber. The bottom line is he served his country.

It's sad that anyone wasted a vote rec'ing this cuz this kind of swiftboating and that is EXACTLy what this is, (questioning not what the service equates to as Gen. Clark did, his point completely legitimate, but the service itself and it's quality like they did to John Kerry), is a sad statement about some folks here. I don't want to see him elected president either, but he, like just about everyone who serves (some folks do some things in service that are undeserving of respect and that's just real) deserves the UTMOST respect for it.

Fighter... Bomber... whatever. If it's so simple let's see you do it. Let's see you endure years of heinous torture after in because of your service. I'm betting you'll change your tune then.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

62. Bomber McCain?

[NBachers]

68. Thanks for the Straight Talk about John McFeign n/t

[Swagman]

70. they weren't outraged about the Swiftboating of John Kerry's hero

status-these people are such hypocrits.

[Eagle_Eye]

71. True pilots in the Navy refer to themselves a 'Aviators'

Gramps refers to himself as a 'pilot', interesting.

The A-4 Skyhawk was also know as Heineman's Hotrod, the plane that was worn, not occupied

[mwb970]

72. I'm beginning to think that mccain is just as phony as bush.

Everything about bush is fake and phony - his ranch, his presidency, that Thanksgiving turkey. Everything. Now we are seeing that bush-lover mccain is exactly the same! All the key elements of his "heroic story" turn out to be false or misleading. And what are we left with? A guy who rode around in a plane and got shot down! Some hero.

[whistle]

91. Bingo!

[sellitman]

73. Being a War Criminal just means he is a Republican.

Bombing Women and Children means he will fit this country nicely. No drop off from bush.


The same.


McSame!

[Thothmes]

129. Does that mean

LBJ was a Republican for ordering the bombing of women and children that McCain did.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

75. You're really grasping at straws.

No matter how you felt about Vietnam, McCain served in a war zone, undeclared or not. People were firing missiles at him. If swiftboating Kerry was wrong, then swiftboating McCain is wrong too.

[Major Hogwash]

77. Telling the truth about McCain is not swiftboating.

If you can't tell the difference, then you really need to be quiet on the subject.

[Limelight]

80. You need to take your own advice

This is INDEED swiftboating. As I said above There is a huge difference between Gen. Clark questioning whether John McCain's POW experience somehow made him automatically ready to be commander in chief and questioning the worth or importance of his service period for no other reason than to denigrate him.

That's what this post's intent is. That's what the swiftboaters did to Kerry. They are one in the same and if you can't see the obvious you're the one that needs to stop speaking.

[willyloman]

84. This all comes from McCain's testimony...

...and the designations of "fighter aircraft" during Vietnam.

This is not "Swiftboating". What they made up about Kerry was that he shot some unarmed kid in the back while he was running away, and that he "may" have inflicted his own wounds to get out of combat. The man had earned Purple Hearts for God's sake.

I'm not arguing that he didn't deserve the recognition he recieved, or am I down-playing his years in captivity...

... all I am doing with this, is pointing out that the MSM wants to redefine the role that John McCain played in Vietnam to make it more "heroic".

That does a disservice to all military service men and women, then and now. Give the man credit for what he did... what he REALLY did, and don't accept the MSM's "little white lies". Especially when they refuse to release his full military records.

[Limelight]

88. Little white lies?

He served in Vietnam. He flew a plane in combat. He was shot down. He was captured and tortured.

Where's the lie again?

And by the way, I've had a look at the plane. It is a fighter jet. The fact that it was outfitted to be an ultra lite bomber does change what the plane was originally designed for. And there isn't one single solitary assertion uttered in the original post that amounts to more than an argument about semantics. I mean except for the part at the end that shows just a enough of a lack of balls to accuse him of being a traitor without actually coming out and saying it.

And again, it IS swiftboating. The question posed in the post is basically saying McCain lied and betrayed his country. You're not questioning what the experience he gained from his service makes him qualified to do, but whether his service was really "important" enough to give him credit for along. Oh, and then there's the whole accusing him of being a traitor thing. There's a word for something like that.

Swiftboating.

[willyloman]

114. The A-4 is a "light bomber" A stands for "attack"...

as in "ground attack aircraft".

McCain said he "bombed" women and children

McCain said he was in a "dive bomb" attack approach when he was shot down..

ergo, therefore, alas John McCain was a 'bomber pilot" during his 22 missions in Vietnam.

Swiftboating is when a group of people put together lies about Kerry in 2004. Lies like "john kerry inflicted his own wounds to get out of combat" and "john kerry shot some kid in the back while he was running away."

You see, the difference is, what I said about McCain clears up the lies. He was not a "fighter pilot" during Vietnam. He dropped bombs on people from a "light bomber A-4"...

according to John McCain. It's the truth, John Said it himself, ergo not a lie, ergo...

... not 'swiftboating" like the republicans did to Kerry in 2004.

[Major Hogwash]

122. This is not swiftboating - it's telling the truth about your hero, John McFuckFaceCain

So, shove it up your bunghole!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

81. It isn't the truth.

The article makes one small omission with respect to McCain's "confession" on 60 Minutes - namely that he was quoting from the confession he signed while a POW - a confession extracted from him via torture.

[Major Hogwash]

123. Yes, it is true. Sorry your hero McFuckFaceCain can't tell the truth about his service record.

Too bad for assholes like you, huh?

[Serial Mom]

76. And this does not give him any presidential experience!

I have read many Vietnam vets considered him nothing but a FLY BOY - he flew his planes, dropped bombs on people (some enemy, many more innocents), turned around, IF HE DIDN'T CRASH first, then went back to a safe ship.

Vets say he had NO CLUE as to what was happening on the ground and to all the troops that were fighting that awful war.

He can be commended for suffering torture for this country, but that does not qualify him for foreign policy experience, war experience, nor presidential experience. In fact, I think it may DISQUALIFY him - anybody who is tortured may have long lasting affects emotionally & mentally along with the physical affects!

[happygoluckytoyou]

79. i think it is pronounced...a WAR ZERO

[papapi]

85. K&R. McShame needs to chill on the 'war hero' bull-shite.

[willyloman]

86. I want to thank you for putting this up here, DPP...

... After seeing the mash-up video of all the talking heads jumping all over Gen. Clark for his tame (IMO) comments on whether or not McCain's service record really qualifies him for the office of the President, I just had to write something.

There is so much out there about John McCain, that should give people pause, the one thing the MSM seems desperate to silence even before it gets started is peering into the "war hero"'s military record. I mean they all came at him in a "shock and awe" style attack; they did this to send a message that apparently, many people here even took to heart. That is "don't even think about looking".

McCain's only real loyalty has always been to power. unfortunately, we see that trait quite often in children born into families of great power (insert your own politcal reference here). There is no exception to this now; he had a stance on the surge and on torture, till he met with the American Enterprize Institute people and came away with a renewed interest in their plan "Choosing Victory" (which he and Lieberman helped sell right after the dems won control of congress).

Well, I think it is important to point out this trait in the man before he becomes president. What better way than to look back over the years, starting with his military career. Anyway, thank you for putting this up here. I hope people consider it for what it is; not an "attack" on the man, just an attempt to knock off the pixie-dust the MSM is blowing all over his history.

Thanks again.

[whistle]

90. K & R

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

94. Let's have some context for his "confession" shall we?

Every two hours, one guard would hold McCain while two others beat him. They kept it up for four days.

Finally, McCain lay on the floor at "The Plantation," a bloody mess, unable to move. His right leg, injured when he was shot down, was horribly swollen. A guard yanked him to his feet and threw him down. His left arm smashed against a bucket and broke again.

"I reached the lowest point of my 5½ years in North Vietnam," McCain would write later. "I was at the point of suicide."

What happened next, in that August of 1968, nearly a year after he was captured, is chronicled in The Nightingale's Song by Robert Timberg:

"(McCain) looked at the louvered cell window high above his head, then at the small stool in the room. He took off his dark blue prison shirt, rolled it like a rope, draped one end over his shoulder near his neck, began feeding the other end through the louvers."

A guard burst into the cell and pulled McCain away from the window. For the next few days, he was on suicide watch.

McCain's will had finally wilted under the beatings. Unable to endure any more, he agreed to sign a confession.

McCain slowly wrote, "I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pirate. I almost died and the Vietnamese people saved my life, thanks to the doctors."

http://www.azcentral.com/news/specials/mccain/articles/0301mccainbio-chapter3.html

Have fun making that a campaign issue.

[thereismore]

95. The only heroic thing that he did was when he had the choice to leave Hilton, but he

chose to stay with his POW buddies instead. That is heroism. If you can debunk that, if that one thing is a myth, he is not a hero.

I don't see his bombing of VN as a heroic deed, but whatever. This is sensitive to many people. But the one thing that was heroic, if true, is his refusal to leave his buddies behind.

Does anybody know if this part of the story is true? I suspect not, but I need evidence.

[wurzel]

98. How could he have acted otherwise?

That he stayed on was not an act of heroism. He had to have known the consequences of taking the deal. His true heroism is in flying a jet plane off a carrier. That is heroic every time anyone does it.

[thereismore]

108. I see your point, but I do not think flying off a carrier is heroic. The Japanese were heroes too?

A lesser man would choose to leave. I still think that was a tough choice, and making the right choice even though you have an easy way out is heroic. Flying off a carrier was his job. I don't see it as heroic.

[willyloman]

117. what about when Bush "landed" on one with his codpiece?

Was that "heroic"? When he landed and proclaimed "mission Accomplished". It takes guts to fly those things, I will grant that, but so does hanging steel 70 floors above New York City. is that "heroic"? What really is "heroic"?

[willyloman]

121. Yes that is true... however...

It took him 3 days by his own admission to come to that decision. And it was the correct one to make.

from his own statement, US news and world Report, May 1973

"I went back to my room, and I thought about it for a long time. At this time I did not have communication with the camp senior ranking officer, so I could get no advice. I was worried whether I could stay alive or not, because I was in rather bad condition. I had been hit with a severe case of dysentery, which kept on for about a year and a half. I was losing weight again.

But I knew that the Code of Conduct says, "You will not accept parole or amnesty," and that "you will not accept special favors." For somebody to go home earlier is a special favor. There's no other way you can cut it.

I went back to him three nights later. He asked again, "Do you want to go home?" I told him "No."

He wanted to know why, and I told him the reason. I said that Alvarez should go first, then enlisted men and that kind of stuff."

[samsingh]

96. strongly recommend

[kimbo fleiss]

99. You need to realize...

...that most Americans do not differentiate "bomber" and "fighter" pilots. These pilots engage in combat.

I'm not an expert in the military history of the Vietnam era, but how many "fighter" pilots were there? The North Vietnamese did not have air fleets that engaged in fire fights in the air against our pilots. Therefore, weren't most pilots bombers?

[willyloman]

120. Vietnam fighter pilots may take exception to that...

Please read: Air War Over North Viet Nam; The Vietnamese People's Air Force 1949-1977, by Dr. Istvan Toperczer

or ...And Kill MiGs, by Lou Drendel, Squadron/Signal Publications, 1974/1997

this website lists hundreds of confirmed kills of MiG fighter crafts during the Vietnam War...

http://home.comcast.net/~anneled/usvictor.html

(you'll notice that the name of the pilot is given along with the typre of craft he flew. All of them, save the ONE I mentioned in the article, was flying a "fighter" plane, noted with the "F" before the name of the craft.)

[DevonRex]

124. My father would have bristled at a bomber being called a fighter

pilot. Fighter pilots are a special breed. This is acknowledged by every aviator in the service - with some resentment, of course, by the others. My father was a Marine fighter pilot in WWII and Korea. In between he was a crop duster, also a special breed of pilot.

Aviators stick together, but fighter pilots are the best of the best, in academics, physical conditioning, reflexes, and judgment. They have to be. There are a couple of other qualities that they must have. One is fearlessness. Another is a sort of intuitiveness in anticipating the actions of the enemy pilot and the ability to "know" exactly where they are in relation to other aircraft and the ground. These are things they are born with and that are finely honed during training. And many people with those natural abilities wash out because they can't take their skills to the necessary level required to be a fighter pilot.

[Thothmes]

130. Yes they did

They had several squadrons of MiG 19s and at least one squadron of MiG 21s. They did engage Amercian aircraft in air to air combat over the skies of North Vietnam. There were real dogfights between MiGs and F-4s & F-8s, hell, even a skyraider got a MiG kill during the war.

[bertman]

101. HERO: currently the most overused and misused word in the English language. A propaganda tool.

With the possible exception of the words "actually" and "like", "hero" is the word that is abused every day to within an inch of its meaning.

Nowadays anyone who enlists in the military is a hero. Desk clerks and supply personnel who have never even heard the crack of small arms except during basic training are now called heroes by our reich-wing propagandists. According to them anyone who puts on a uniform is a hero. Folks, this is called trivialization.

I knew hundreds of infantrymen, artillerymen, chopper pilots, crew chiefs, door gunners, pathfinders and lrrp's who would laugh in your face if you called them heroes. They knew that a hero was someone who exhibited exceptional bravery under fire or under extreme conditions (pulling a comrade out of a burning helicopter, for example). They also knew that they were not heroes for doing their jobs as soldiers, marines, sailors, air force, or coast guard.

[BearSquirrel2]

102. I would have cracked too ...

I'm ambivalent on this subject. I know I also would have cracked under torment. Ultimately, John McCain cracking and reading bullshit confessions didn't impact the war in any way for or against. Likely, he didn't have any actionable intelligence to begin with so whatever he told them was of no consequence.

On the other side of the issue, you know full well that if this was a Democrat, they would have called John McCain a traitor. The cries about his "war crimes" would be blaring 24 hours from TV news. He would be painted as a stoolie turncoat.

Wes Clark probably said it best. Riding in a fighter plane and being shot down is not an executive qualification.

1) All persons who risk their life for this country in compliance with the uniform code of military conduct are heroes. Democrats should trumpet this as it does not disrespect McCain for his bumbling but honorable service (he trashed 3 jets due to pilot error).

2) People bring different life experiences that qualify them in different ways for the office of President. Having served gives you a perspective. So does being a community organizer. Both men have enough legislative experience that it's a wash. Neither have command experience.

Ultimately, the President's job is to define the strategic political goals for military action in conjunction with the state department. It's the Defense Department's job to implement those strategies with tactics. President's should NOT BE PLAYING GENERAL, even those with command experience and even those WHO WERE GENERALS. There job is to keep their eye on the diplomatic situation and make sure what the generals are doing fit those goals.

Officer's with command experience bring a qualification in that they have management experience to some degree. Similar experience can be found in the private sector. And certainly one should be evaluated based on the outcome of those experiences. For example, running two bankrupt companies into firesales would not be considered a qualification.

Further, I really don't think that McCain should get any credit for "managing" his Senate staff. Senator McCain barely seems capable of remembering his own positions on issue. It is clear that he isn't remotely in charge of his staff. Rather, his staff is in charge of him. This is not a good qualification for President if you cannot even keep on top of the issues in your office. How can you be expected to stay on top of the issues of the federal bureaucracy?

[Politicalboi]

103. I have heard

That Bob Dornan and I think Bob Barr have info that McCain got to go to brothels for his info. McCain was called "songbird". I think there's a lot that Johnny doesn't want people to see. I hope the truth comes out and destroys him in his old age.

[L0oniX]

112. McLame was NOT a hero. He was and is an asscarrot extraordinarie.

[AZ Criminal JD]

118. What an idiotic post.

If Obama was reading it, he would say the same thing.

[invictus]

126. That is all true. And if elected, McInsane would commit many more war crimes. n/t

[BOHICA06]

132. And your bonafides is???

Stick to real issues or STFU....

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

133. Bob Schieffer in his interview with Wesley Clark called McCain a fighter pilot

when he stated that Barack Obama "has not had any of those experiences either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down".

And I've read references on the Internet stating that John McCain attended the "Top Gun" fighter pilot's school in Pensacola, Florida in 1960. I thought the Top Gun school was at Miramar, California and that it was founded in 1969. Can McCain actually claim (or allowed to be claimed on his behalf) to have been a "Navy Top Gun"?