NYT: Mark Penn wanted Hillary to exploit Obama's "lack of American roots"; Bill wanted tough attacks

[TeamJordan23]

The Times reports that some in the Clinton camp noticed too, though didn't wind up really probing that front:

Backed by Bill Clinton, Mr. Penn pushed for aggressive attacks on Mr. Obama, something other advisers resisted. At one point, Mr. Penn argued that Mrs. Clinton should find subtle ways to exploit what he called Mr. Obama’s “lack of American roots,” referring to his Kenyan father and his childhood years in Indonesia and even the offshore state of Hawaii, the campaign officials said. Mr. Penn recommended that Mrs. Clinton own the word “American” — she should talk about the “American century” and her “American Strategic Energy Fund,” and so forth. She should add flag symbols to her logo, he suggested.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/American_roots.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/08/us/politics/08recon.html?pagewanted=2&hp

[JI7]

1. i will never understand why she didn't fire him

not only did she not fire him, but she continued to listen and take his advice over others.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

65. Fire?

Strangle.

[slinkerwink]

2. She didn't listen to Mark Penn in the end. He wanted her to keep going on to the convention.

[TheWraith]

46. But she did have to be told to get out by all of her major Senate and House backers. nt

[Drunken Irishman]

3. I'm glad Sen. Clinton did not go down that road.

And I hope Mark Penn chokes on a doughnut.

[EFerrari]

16. She did go down that road . . as far as I know.

And it was a big mistake. People are really sick of divisive cr@p in nationalistic drag.

[Emit]

27. Yeah she did

that was my first thought, too

[TahitiNut]

66. Yup. The ol' "white Americans" remark capped it off.

Jingoism and racism wrapped up in one tidy phrase. :puke:

I got somethin' to say. And then I ain't gonna say no more. He took advantage of me. An' if you fine, fancy gentlemen ain't gonna do nothin' about it, then you're just a bunch of lousy, yella, stinkin' cowards, the - the whole bunch of ya, and your fancy airs don't come to nothin'. Your Ma'am'in' and your Miss Mayellarin' - it don't come to nothin', Mr. Finch, not... no.

[Kahuna]

33. But she DID go down that road. She sliced and diced the Democratic

coalition to smithereens. She will have to do much more that one speech to put it back together.

[dkf]

4. Mark Penn is a screw up.

He did Hillary no service. History will record that he was the biggest mistake of the campaign.

[Hawkeye-X]

14. If Hillary wants to do the right thing..

She should be suing Mark Penn $20M for incompetence.

Hawkeye-X

[dkf]

20. Is that how much he cost?

She should sue him for malpractice.

[cliffordu]

59. Or she could just cut out his heart during the half time show at the superbowl..

[Skidmore]

31. Mark Penn was out to win the GE for McCain by screwing up the primary for Dems.

He is a REPUBLICAN operative whose firm also manages McCain's campaign. I don't get why people can't see this for what it is. Hillary was snookered. Period. For weeks, I posted a thread on a daily basis regarding the relationship between Penn and Charlie Black and Penn's political affiliation. I am still stunned by the lack of judgement it takes to court the very RW machinery that spent so long trying to destroy you. If you poke at a viper, chances are it will bite you.

[otohara]

54. She Did Herself In

she was the biggest mistake in the campaign. For upteen reasons, but to start right off the bat boasting about her being the winner already and those other guys were just roadkill. That never sat well with me People will go out of their way to prove supposed outcomes, wrong.

[MethuenProgressive]

5. "She should add flag symbols to her logo,"? She's always had one.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/home/?splash=1

Bogus gossip.

[XemaSab]

6. If anyone wants to pillory him

I've got some old fruit and rotten vegetables I need to get rid of. :shrug:

[cali]

7. Penn is filth, and sorry, it doesn't reflect well on Hillary that she

relied so heavily on him for almost the entire campaign.

[MarjorieG]

10. The Clintons have a long history of political down and dirty survival. Difficult to change.

Obama projects and promises something different that the country is responding to.

[anonymous171]

8. Of course he did. Penn is a soulless corporate shill. I'm glad Hillary didn't listen to him.

[FrenchieCat]

9. So is this the road that the Pubs will go down?

Does that mean that the requirements for President have changed? Not only must you be born American citizen, but both of your parents as well. And you can only be born in one of the 49 states....but not the 50th? Sounds like NEW RULES!

[beac]

17. I think they are unlikely to push that particular point, being that McSame

was born in the Panama Canal Zone and it's a bit dicey as to whether he's really even eligible to run for President. The question of what "natural born citizen" means apparently hasn't been definitively decided b/c it's never gone to court w/regards to a Presidential candidate.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html

[EFerrari]

18. Sure they will. McCain is the Greatest American Hero

and Obama is an elitist black Muslim Marxist with a militant radical pastor.

They'll push every alienating button they can dream up, including left-handed and allergic to dairy products.

[DeschutesRiver]

37. And given the way it has already worked out for them

it should put Obama over the top. Was it Mississippi or Missouri where that the Democrat unseated the long standing repub candidate by a landslide, after a over the top direct nasty ad against Obama and linking him with the democratic candidate? Fat lot of good that did, and not exactly in what most would call a liberal kind of state.

Those attack ads will definitely be used, but I am not overly concerned. Besides, because they are stupid, the repubs can be made to look like asses over this. So what if Obama was born in the Panama Canal Zone...oh, wait, I have it wrong. McCAIN was born in the Panama Canal... bam, bam, bam, tit for tat, tit for tat, and it will quickly become just a tiresome game played by old folks like McCain and his supporters who are half asleep at the wheel.

[EFerrari]

52. I'm not as sanguine as you are. These attacks never make sense.

If they did, the Swiftboaters would have been laughed out of the country for saying Kerry's record wasn't as good as Junior's.

It has nothing to do with the facts, but about the impression they can give in 30 second ads.

ETA: I don't want to be negative, just careful.

[DeschutesRiver]

58. No, you are right to urge caution

At this point, I am not concerned mostly because of what I feel has been an outstanding rapid response team effort by Obama's staff. If Kerry had people as on the ball as Obama's (and they just seem to get better over time), maybe things would have been different for him. Obama's judgment for the most part regarding the people he hires to do the job has been good. Heck if Clinton had gone with Axelrod as she'd thought of doing, instead of listening to Bill and picking Penn, plus ditching all her bad staff, who knows how much better things might have gone for her too. Many layers to this game for sure.

That said, I do agree that these things can turn on a dime and snowball overnight. I am probably forgetting just how bad the Rev. Wright thing could have been, had not Obama turned it into a lesson on race by his thoughtful speech and subsequent measured but firm actions in response to continued attacks.

But haven't Obama's responses and recoveries been pretty cool to watch unfold? There is a ton of McCain ammo out there, and I believe that between Obama's skillful moves + instincts and his people's determination, the coming attacks can be used to further his bid for office, instead of hindering it. The young man has so far shown me that he knows how to do that well, and is in fact honing his skills at doing so.

[musicblind]

21. Yes, yes it is the path the republicans will go down.

In fact they will do and say MUCH worse. By the end of this race, if they have their way, Obama will be painted as a crazy, leftist, muslim, terrorist, radical-black-united-church-christian, who doesn't wear a flag pen because he wants God to damn America and the entire "whitey" population.

Only, the label would probably be much worse and contain words that should be illegal to say.

We need to REALIZE that this IS the road they are going to go down, and we need to be ready, armed, and waiting for them with tire shredders, and land mines. We need to recognize that this is the road they are going to take so that we have the PERFECT rebutal for all of this crap, and we need to make sure that the rebutal we use is easily understood by low information voters.


Sadly, republicans have no limit to how LOW they will go to get a win. I'm not talking McCain. I'm sure McCain is a good person at heart who has horrible political opinions/beliefs. (because I keep personalities and politics seperate... doesn't mean I would ever EVER want him as president though). But the republicans, as a whole, they have NO limit. The will punch as low as possible and we need to make sure we are wearing a cup. Better yet, a cup with spikes on the outside. For every one of their blows, we need the perfect knockout punch to send back. :)

[closeupready]

51. You are so, SOOO right. They WILL try to shred Obama's character.

They did it to John Kerry. They've done it in every major presidential campaign I can think of. They are going to hit, and hit hard. We have got to be ready.

[musicblind]

57. Yes

I remember thinking. John Kerry is GREAT! He's a war hero! They can't possible smear this... and then BAM they tried anyway. I was shocked. It was probably because I was so naive to the political system. Still am to some extent. That was the first election where I was old enough to really be fully involved in the GE.

[cottonseed]

53. "The American President Americans Have Been Waiting For"

The Pubs will. And they have.

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/new_mccain_ad_the_american_pre.php

It's an ugly part of this election we'll have to deal with. Fortunately I think millions of Americans are ready to slap this crap down this year.

[Warren DeMontague]

11. Wasn't he the genius who didn't understand that delegates are awarded proportionally?

Oops.

Fucking doofus.

[fujiyama]

12. Mark Penn can go fuck off

He can go back to the company he kept that defended the likes of Blackwater.

Yuck. Pure scum. And I have found a newfound dislike for Bill Clinton. I think I can forgive Hillary and move on from the primary, but I now hold little respect for Bill.

[Diane R]

13. Hillary Clinton did follow much of Penn's advice. I won't forget the dirty campaign she ran.

[cbc5g]

15. Nor will I, if she ran a decent campaign she might have been considered for VP

But you can't have a VP that has talked so much shit about our candidate. The RW would exploit every single anti-obama sentence that came out of her mouth.

[madrchsod]

22. "if she ran a decent campaign ".....she would have won....

and that`s going to be her legacy....

[Arrowhead2k1]

19. Hillary demonstrated that she's not the best leader if she let's people like that run the show.

I'm just glad things turned out with her finally stepping aside.

[McCamy Taylor]

23. NYT is NeoCon rag. This is pro McCain propaganda that hurts Obama.

Note that they mention the delay in reporting the Indiana results from that one county next to Chicago twice in the article and call it the tipping point that ended Clinton's chances. Those who watched CNN that night know the full story.

Now, why would the NYTs want to dredge up this old history at a time like this, when Clinton has just suspended her campaign and endorsed Obama with a very moving speech? To paint the Obama campaign a bunch of dirty tricksters who cheated in order to steal a victory and to get Clinton supporters so mad that they will vote for McCain despite her call for unity.

Their hope is that this little nudge will get Clinton supporters in the bloggo-sphere to complain loudly. Clinton supporters, don't go there.

The New York Times---which gave us Judy Miller and then Michael Gordon the human voice activated tape recorder and then Mark Mazzetti who brought us the CIA torture tapes story in order to discredit the CIA Iran NIE and which now has Bill Kristol--that NYT is determined that the US will stay in Iraq for the oil and invade Iran for the "security" of Israel. And it will do whatever it can to support McCain.

Look for more "investigative reporting" from the NYTs and the WaPo both that is aimed at pointing out so called dirty tricks played by the Obama campaign in order to help out the McCain campaign.

[Emit]

28. I thought Clinton supporters in the bloggo-sphere are already complaining loudly

and have been

:shrug:

[Colobo]

38. NYT a neo-con rag?

[progetto]

24. Penn took an almost inevitable candidate and lost.

good riddance.

[Tatiana]

25. Bagdad Terry!!!!!

Mr. McAuliffe served as morale officer, regularly visiting headquarters and taking dejected aides to dinner. His feisty, manic television appearances became so ubiquitous that aides developed “Terry Bingo” with 25 boxes listing his most common lines of spin — “More electable,” “Can still win” — and marked the boxes as he uttered them again and again.

I don't know why, but that made me smile. All in all, very poignant.

[NoodleyAppendage]

26. NYT: Hillary didn't use blatant xenophobia against Obama, but we'll write about so the Repuke can.

This NYT piece is CLASSIC PSYOPS. Discuss the problem in a clinical and somewhat offhand manner, noting that the despicable behavior was not carried out by one party in a dispute...knowing full well that a more powerful third party will now use the information to form their strategy.

Hey, NYT! Shove an aluminum tube up your editorial board's ass. The blood of thousands stain your hands too.

J

[Orangepeel]

60. maybe, but republicans didn't need the NYT to clue them in on this as a strategy

of course they are going to attack Obama's "Americanism." They've already been doing it.

[Cha]

29. "Sense of entitlement"..

" What hurt them was their sense of entitlement that the presidency was theirs and all the acolytes should fall in line,” said Gov. Bill Richardson of New Mexico, a former Clinton cabinet officer who endorsed Mr. Obama only to be branded a Judas by James Carville, the architect of Mr. Clinton’s original rise to power. “Instead of accepting it, they turned on the acolytes. It was their war room mentality, to attack when something doesn’t go their way, and it just reminded me of the old days.”

[Political Heretic]

30. There's a strong chance that if she had never hired Mark Penn she'd be president.

That guy is epic fail.

[AllentownJake]

43. Sad thing is for her

She had a choice between Axelrod and Penn in 2000.

Under Bill's urging she took Penn.

[ima_sinnic]

32. it just shows that she has very bad judgment and therefore not presidential

--and what kind of person with a CONSCIENCE would resort to that kind of lying and smearing? I would prefer my candidate have a soul and a conscience -- thankfully her true colors came out before the entire country was snookered into yet another con-artist administration.

[genna]

67. CONSCIENCE: Mine is conflicted

It burns me up that agree with Peggy Noonan. I don't like her moralizing at me. I don't like her vault of self possessed, "I'm right and you're wrong."

I am irritated that I agree with the assessment.

"All of this is impressive, but more than that, they threw off Clintonism. They threw off the idea that corruption is part of the game, an acceptable fact. They threw off the idea that dynasticism was an unstoppable dynamic in modern politics, that Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton could, would, go on forever. They said: "No, that is not the way we do it."

They threw off the idea of inevitability. Mrs. Clinton didn't lose because she had no money or organization, she didn't lose because she had no fame or name, she didn't lose because her policies were unusual or dramatically unpopular within her party. She lost because enough Democrats looked at her and thought: I don't like that, I don't like the way she does it, I'm not going there. Most candidates lose over things, not over their essential nature. But that is what happened here. For all her accomplishments and success, it was her sketchy character that in the end did her in."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121269958227749853.html?mod=todays_columnists

How can I wind up agreeing with this RW shrill?

[Bread and Circus]

34. At this point, I think we need to look forward, not back.

[EFerrari]

50. Depends what you're looking at.

:)

I agree that we need to look forward to November to win this race.

And, people -- historians, journalists, all kinds of people will be studying this amazing primary for years and years.

[Vinca]

35. His nickname should be Pig Penn. nt

[Marie26]

36. Didn't he also think that the states

were "winner-take-all?" Duh. He should give back the money Clinton paid him, or donate it to the Obama campaign. It's not like he did Dems any favors this primary season.

[Duder]

39. Sexism was part of it...

Hillary's choice of men in her campaign.

[Colobo]

40. Hillary surrounder herself with idiots like Penn. That's why she lost.

[Hieronymus]

63. Yes, idiots like Penn, Wolfson, and Bill Clinton.

[stillcool]

41. they played it as hard...

as they dared..and it should have worked. Who knows...it may still. Catastrophic event and all.

[Willo]

42. She did go the "I'm more American" route in April.

"Obama's remarks are elitist and out of touch. They are not reflective of the values and beliefs of Americans. Certainly, not the Americans I know."

Some tried to make a big deal about his birth certificate, that fell flat. I don't think there's much of a story to exploit without hurting McCain and bringing attention back to the passport files that were breached.

[dansolo]

44. And there is still the unanswered matter about Obama's passport records

Wasn't the third employee who looked at Obama's passport records supposed to be questioned? The media quickly dropped the story, and we never found out the explanation of why any of the people looked into his passport file.

[EFerrari]

47. They were trying to find out if he met with Mohammed Ata in Prague. n/t

[Patsy Stone]

45. She should have fired him after Iowa.

Maybe before. And then there's Ickes; proving once again he's talking out of his ass.

Did I miss DU's Terry Bingo Nights? :rofl:

[Jennicut]

48. Uhhh..since when is Hawaii NOT a "real state"? Is this like the caucus states "not really counting"?

Why did the CLintons not learn from that other Rethug viper Dick Morris? Why do they let these people into their circle? I will never understand.

[laurentius87]

49. Shame on Penn

Shame on you, Mr. Penn.

[cottonseed]

55. "The American President Americans Have Been Waiting For"

Penn aside. This is something that's going to be a centerpiece of the Republican strategy:

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/03/new_mccain_ad_the_american_pre.php

It's going to be an ugly, dirty campaign. I'm confident we'll come out on top, and the Republican party will be dripping in their own filth for another decade. This campaign will go towards defining both parties. We'll be on the right side of this one.

[Arugula Latte]

56. Disgusting and revolting...I'm glad lots of us saw through them

and voted against them.

[Carrieyazel]

61. If Hillary had attacked Obama early instead of not taking him seriously, she's the nominee.

Hillary never really had that true killer instinct against another Democrat. After the primaries began it was too late. Obama reaped the rewards.

[Cha]

62. That's no way to win..by attacking 'cause

you got nothin'. hilary tried to make up for lost time though and showed everyone just how slimey she could be..plus,she lies a lot.

They were just full of missteps and ignorance and didn't really have anything to offer the 21st century needs.

[genna]

64. At least Penn tried to give the Clintons' cover

The Clintons have spent their lives fighting as much as any leaders in their generation for greater equality across racial and gender lines. I believe nothing they said was ever intended to divide the country by race. Any suggestion to the contrary was perhaps the greatest injustice done to them in this campaign.

I don't think intentions define a person as much as what they did in fact.

To put it nicely, Penn is a character.