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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 02:47 PM
Original message
Conservative Pundit: Empircally and Observationally - We are headed to a historic landslide defeat
This article http://www.centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/article.php?id=AIA2008052901by By Alan I. Abramowitz is currently picking up interest with conservative pundits and is featured today in an article by Kondracke here http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/06/mccain_needs_vision_to_beat_hi.html.

Here are the key points




1) Forget the polls at this point they are a poor reflector of General Election performance

Polling data seem to support the conclusion that despite the unpopularity of his party, John McCain has a realistic chance of keeping the White House in Republican hands. McCain has been running neck-and-neck with Obama in most recent national polls. In the May 21st Gallup tracking poll, for example, Obama held a narrow 47 to 44 percent lead over McCain.

The problem with such early horserace polls, however, is that they are not very accurate predictors of the actual election results. Polls in the spring of 1988 showed Michael Dukakis with a comfortable lead over George H.W. Bush and polls in June of 1992 showed Bill Clinton running third behind both Bush and H. Ross Perot. So recent polls showing a close race between McCain and Obama may not tell us much about what to expect in November.



2) Other indicators are more meaningful at this point

Instead of using early horserace polls, political scientists generally rely on measures of the national political climate to make their forecasts. That is because the national political climate can be measured long before the election and it has been found to exert a powerful influence on the eventual results.

Three indicators of the national political climate have accurately predicted the outcomes of presidential elections since the end of World War II: the incumbent president's approval rating at mid-year, the growth rate of the economy during the second quarter of the election year, and the length of time the president's party has held the White House.


clip

These three factors can be combined to produce an Electoral Barometer score that measures the overall national political climate. The formula for computing this score is simply the president's net approval rating (approval minus disapproval) in the Gallup Poll plus five times the annual growth rate of real GDP minus 25 if the president's party has held the White House for two terms or longer. Mathematically, this formula can be written as:

EB = NAR + (5*GDP) - 25.

In theory, the Electoral Barometer can range from -100 or lower to +100 or higher with a reading of zero indicating a neutral political climate. In practice, Electoral Barometer readings for the fifteen presidential elections since the end of World War II have ranged from -66 in 1980 to +82 in 1964. A positive Electoral Barometer reading generally predicts victory for the incumbent party while a negative reading generally predicts defeat.





3)The author's 'Electoral Barometer' not only accurately forcasts General Election victories but also is very accurate in measureing popular vote margins.

Table 1. Electoral Barometer Readings and Election Results since World War II

Barometer
Reading Year Election Result Popular Vote Margin
82.5 1964 Won 22.6%
73.0 1972 Won 23.2%
71.0 1956 Won 15.4%
51.5 1984 Won 18.2%
43.5 1996 Won 8.5%
22.0 2000 Won* 0.5%
13.0 2004 Won 2.5%
9.0 1988 Won 7.7%
4.5 1948 Won 4.5%
2.0 1968 Lost -0.7%
-5.0 1960 Lost -0.2%
-5.0 1976 Lost -2.1%
-22.5 1992 Lost -5.6%
-49.5 1952 Lost -10.9%
-66.0 1980 Lost -9.7%




4)McCain is facing a 'triple whammy', a negative 63

Following the author's formula it will not be able to process the data until August when the GDP final figures are available.

Here is what the Republicans are facing, the triple whammy:


- unpopular President
- weak economy
- a defacto second term election

Based on today's figures McCain's barometer would equal -63.

That would be the second lowest in history,

An Electoral Barometer reading of -63 would predict a decisive defeat for the Republican presidential candidate. The only election since World War II with a score in this range was 1980. In that election Jimmy Carter suffered the worst defeat for an incumbent president since Herbert Hoover in 1932. The second lowest score, -50, occurred in 1952. That was the last election in which neither the incumbent president, Democrat Harry Truman, nor the incumbent vice-president appeared on the ballot. Nevertheless, the candidate trying to succeed Truman, Democrat Adlai Stevenson, lost in a landslide.





5) The Conservatives may not be looking at our numbers but they are looking at this one.


http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/06/mccain_needs_vision_to_beat_hi.html

A new scholarly analysis confirms that Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) has to perform miracles to win the 2008 election. So far, he is far short of doing that.

McCain’s speech in Louisiana Tuesday night fell embarrassingly short of matching Sen. Barack Obama’s (D-Ill.) eloquence, vision and delivery — demonstrating the distance McCain has to go to have a chance of winning in November.


If such a number holds, it “would predict a decisive defeat for the Republican presidential candidate,” Abramowitz wrote. “The only election since World War II with a score in this range was 1980,” when “Jimmy Carter suffered the worst defeat for an incumbent president since Herbert Hoover in 1932.”

The second worst occurred in 1952, when Democrat Adlai Stevenson tried to succeed Harry S. Truman with a minus 50 score and lost the popular vote by 11 points to Dwight D. Eisenhower.

The Abramowitz barometer is a short-cut variation on American University professor Allan Lichtman’s famed “13 Keys to the Presidency,” which adds such factors as wars, candidate charisma, scandal and the incumbent party’s performance in off-year elections to the economy and incumbency.

click

During Bush’s claimed “small government” years, median income has fallen, the ranks of the uninsured have swelled, debt has mounted and prices have soared.

Voters clearly want “change.” McCain has a long way to go to convince them that his kind is better than Obama’s, even though — on the merits — it may well be.

At the rate things are going, history will repeat itself with a Democratic victory in 2008 and liberal domination of the government until voters change their minds again.




We have arrived at a very strange point. In trying to look forward to prospects in the fall we are finding it a lot easier to find metrics in common with conservative pundits than we did within our own party.

Beyond the academic indicators is the charisma of Senator Obama and the absolutely aggravatingly mindnumbing approach of Senator McCain.



Again from Kondrake:

Against Obama’s positive, eloquent, visionary uplift, McCain offered a negative, weakly delivered alternative that was even half-borrowed from Obama. A sign behind McCain read “A Leader We Can Believe In,” a lift from Obama’s slogan “Change We Can Believe In.”

But he offered no overriding vision to compete with Obama’s soaring, Kennedy-esque declaration, “America, this is our moment ... our time to offer a new direction to the country we love.”

Even though McCain has differed from Bush on Iraq War strategy, detainee policy, energy and climate change, McCain does back Bush policies on taxes, foreign policy, health care and (the environment excepted) free-market solutions to America’s problems.

McCain has nothing to match Obama’s promise to “invest in our crumbling infrastructure” and in human capital — early childhood education, the public schools, college education and scientific research.

To the contrary, McCain plans to curtail “wasteful spending” and freeze all government programs at current levels until he sorts out which work. “Public investment” is not in his vocabulary.




What Change? What Believe in? Talk about Change you can xerox. And all of this is coming from the cheerleaders for McCain.



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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. and here is the link to prhgndumass's work on electoral indicators
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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kicking (going to read now)
(had to find it!) :D
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. its "rec" "kick" and then "read" lol
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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Let's not put the shoes on without the socks going on first :)
(for those of us who don't go commando with the feet)

:rofl:
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femmedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. But the electoral barometer doesn't take into account
McCain's charisma.

I can't even type that with a straight face.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. that would take it out of 'landslide' into 'hurricane' level

But seriously it also doesn't take into account the residual racist tendencies both explicit and implicit that still exist in the country.

I agree with Obama that this time its a good time to bet on the American people.
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femmedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. You're right about the racist tendencies even among whites who would in no way consider themselves
racists. My parents, for example: good lifelong Dems. Somehow the Wright clips triggered some kind of racial fear that they previously didn't even know existed. My Mom said it wasn't Wright himself. It was shots of people in the church reacting enthusiastically. From there she went on a stream-of-consciousness ramble about how all the black people she knew were glad OJ got off, because, she said, they wanted to "stick it to whitey." From there she backtracked to being a young adult living on the South Side of Chicago, and how "chilling" Farackan and the black muslims were. And then she said she didn't know if Obama loved this country. :banghead:

I didn't know what to say to her: this was on Mother's Day and I really didn't want to get into it. She did say, "But don't worry, I'd never vote for McCain." But it sure left me with an uneasy feeling. I would never, never have imagined that my parents would have been concerned with any of this. They're educated. They taught me from a young age not to be racist. They identify themselves as liberals. If they're falling for this crap, how many others are falling with them?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I think it well take most of them time to get comfortable with him
We have 5 months.

In the meantime McCain will help by scaring them shitless.

I am working on all of my elderly neighbors and they all are at the stage where they "like him" but just are not sure he has enough experience. When you mention McCain they just kind of shiver.
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windbreeze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
41. Frankly speaking, I am as much concerned about who has control of
what voting machines, as well as I am that underlying racism people mention...wb
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redstate_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. It will definitely be a big grown up test for America
She's still young and fragile. Let's see if she's in her big girl pumps. Many books will be written about this year. It's amazing. This is a sociologists dream. Will people place their own well being before their prejudices. The result will tell us how long America will survive and where we're headed.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. YES!!!
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. it will be a good test but its not a fair test for three reasons


1) George Bush
2) John McCain
3) Barack Obama

Bush has got people angry and McCain makes people sick - both Republicans and Democrats and

Obama is so unbelievably photogenic that every picture is iconic,


How is it fair that a guy from Hawaii looks better in a cowboy hat than a guy from Arizona?

There should be some kind of copywrite infringement.



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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. LOL!!!!
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
43. It also doesn't take into account that he has millions of friends
:rofl:
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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
7. I find this very intriguing ... measuring the national political climate
It makes quite a lot of sense.

Dubya's approval rating is in the tank. The growth rate of the economy is recession and inflation, or rather the stagflation we saw in the 70's. And nobody wants another Presidential term with mostly the same political stances (95% last year) as the Freakshow in the White House.

Also take into account the fact that we are registering new voters left and right, and it is easy to see a blowout for Obama. However, we have to put in the work to get this result!

Very good read, grantcart!

K/R
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. and the money. And the converse is as true as well

The more we do know and the more money we give now - the more discouraging it will be to the Republicans and the less they will give and it becomes a self fulfilling projection as well.
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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Now is the time to donate!
I'm convinced, you're exactly right!

It would be great if we could "subscribe" to Obama's campaign, donating a certain amount each month automatically. I wonder if we could do that through DU's donate button.
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Diamonique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
57. You can set up a donation subscription at Obama's site.
Just go to the donation page and scroll down to the bottom. You'll see the link there.
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fight4my3sons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
8. Thank you grantcart
and thank you for pulling the key points out! I would have probably gotten lost in that first article.

k&r
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. thanks mom
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
11. All of the political scientists' mathematical models will be out in late August
They usually present them at the APSA convention.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
35. interesting can you keep us updated? will there be a single website that has them all?
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
12. So there is reason for optimism.
Likely we will have a Democrat in the White House. If we can make significant moves to improve all of the indicators mentioned above, it's possible we may be able to stay there for a second term. If not, we'll be facing this same indicators in 2012.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
13. CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT: GOP WANTS TO THROW THE ELECTION
Edited on Fri Jun-06-08 03:24 PM by uponit7771
The Bush admin has convinced Bernenke to toss the economy so a repeat of Carter can happen.

Bernanke will raise interest rates REALLY REALLY fast and slow stuff down to a crawl while fuel prices will stay up around 6 a gallon for a year or two.

If I were Obama I would kick Bernanke(sp) ass out as soon as possible.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. There's no indication that they will raise rates
With the economy stalling they can't really do that anyway. This is especially true after cutting too much to begin with, to prop up the stock market for about six months.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. The reason for the 6 dollar barrel drop was Bernanke(sp) saying he's stayin on interest rates but...
...then here comes the stupid job numbers that make our economy look even worse.

Bernanke is a BushBot no doubt, he'll throw the rates up as soon as he can and to hell with the rest.

They will try and make this a Carter economy as soon as possible, look at his actions already; lowering rates this low is crazy but it was done for the elections and not for the best of America.

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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. I don't think so
they are all about the WIN. Regardless of how they get there.

They are surely going to lose more seats in the Senate and House and there are at least two Supreme Court positions coming open (maybe 4). They have to make a stand for the POTUS.

I don't think that "winning by losing" is really an option.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Look at McSame, listen to him for 5 minutes...he's a campaign managers WORST nightmaire; Boring,...
...absent minded and an obvious flip flopper thrown a ton of old as dirt into that...

I know, I know...don't get cocky...your POTUS point kinda takes the steam out of it though.

...imma donate another c note...
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underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. He won by default
Fred Thompson?? HE didn't even want himself to be in the race

Duncan Hunter???

McCain actually stopped campaigning and just sat and waited and let them all fall by the wayside


but never forget aside from 62 seconds on Youtube it was supposed to be George Allen
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
39. Romney terrified them for other reasons
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #39
46. The Evangelicals simply wouldn't bring themselves to vote for a Mormon
But also even if not for the Mormon factor he probably would've lost anyway. He simply wasn't marketable to the Republican primary electorate. Romney should have been the default simply due to the amount of money he spent. But alas they went with seniority and pick McGramps.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. he was never apart of the club - any of the republican clubs
funny story I went to grade and elementary school with Romney's cousins, it was at the time that Romney's dad was running for President. My family is from high Mormon stock - first mayor of SLC and second longest serving Prophet. It drove them nuts that I had that connection and wouldn't bother going to even see what a mormon church was like because with those pedigrees you can write your own ticket in mormon circles. Not only can they not get into our club(s) we don't want inot theirs.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #26
45. I was thinking about Senator Macaca today actually
About this time two years ago he was testing the waters for a presidential bid in Iowa. That 62 second on YouTube changed history. Granted I think Obama would have had an easier time taking down Allen than McCain. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Allen used the n word at some point in the campaign.
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
34. Obama needs to pressure Bernake to resign asap
He's useless, and obama can't fire him, since he was appointed by chimp. If it was up to me (if I was obama), I'd fire the rethuglicans off important posts (us atty comes to mind, esp after siegelmen issue) and replace them with better people who can handle the issues better and know what the fuck they are doing. Bernakes way of shoving more money to the fed central banks apparently is not the answer, since his methods are apparently friedmanian and is not working correctly, and actually causing inflation even though chimps office is obviously lying about it.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #34
44. Obama is stuck with Bernake for his first two years in office, he can then appoint someone else
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
24. So get ready for the ugliest Republican campaign in history, in other words.
Swift-boating, race-baiting, muslim-smearing, elitist-calling and a whole lot of stuff we don't even know about yet. And if that doesn't work, God only knows what they'll try to do. Meanwhile, the industrial-strength paper-shredders are running full time at the White House. I wonder how construction's coming on Bush's rancho down in Paraguay?
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cbc5g Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. BINGO it will be a VERY nasty campaign because they can't win on important issues
And Bush is still in the White House and he'll do whatever it takes on the world scene to make McCain seem better. If that means war, military strikes or whatever, he'll do it.
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smoogatz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. I think he'll definitely order strikes on Iran before November.
And if that triggers terror attacks on the U.S., we might even be talking martial law. I don't think they're going to go quietly off to jail, that's for sure.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #30
38. they won't order strikes
they need to arrange for some provocation first,

then they will order the strikes.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #27
50. They never have been able to
Yet they've won elections repeatedly just the same.
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texasleo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. yup
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
28. Don't discount McCain's sizzling personality and expert grasp of the issues.
:rofl:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. adding that into the equation brings us up to 40 states
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
32. Hope springs eternal.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. war you can believe in
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featherman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
36. Well I keep saying this myself - it's a change year and a Dem year - thanks, great post
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-06-08 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. thanks
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Shine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
40. Yeah, baby!!! A landslide is what I've been vibing for a looong time
:bounce:

McSame is toast. :toast:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #40
42. tks
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 03:17 AM
Response to Original message
48. The Pubs are using the PITY CARD.....McLame is THAT BAD....
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Donkey_Punch_Dubya Donating Member (170 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
49. I want to believe but I'm a little scared of
what our country is capable, in a negative way. Considering that Bush won reelection in 2004 (or at least got it within a percent or two so they could steal it), I don't know. A president who performed and acted as badly as Bush did in his first 4 years should've lost by 20%. I bet if Gore became president in 2000 and did everything exactly like Bush did (I know he wouldn't, but hypothetically), he definitely would've lost badly in 2004. 9/11 would've been blamed entirely on him, all of the lies and ridiculous stomping on the Constitution would've been exploited successfully, and his challenger would've won every state that Kerry carried by less than 15%.

In 2004, all the conventional wisdom was against Bush. No president with approval ratings below 50% gets reelected. The late undecideds break for the challenger 2 to 1. A candidate with objective advantages in certain areas (Kerry with military service) cannot have that used against him by the lesser candidate. But yet those things did not hold. And now this article throws out a formula that indicates a clear Democratic win. I really really really hope that 2008 isn't mysteriously the first time this formula trend is broken, like in 2004.

And the Rupublicans have a perfect cover story for stealing it even more completely this year: people just wouldn't vote for a black person (or woman if Hillary had won) when it came down to it, so those exit polls being 10% different than the results, that's your explanation.

We can't get complacent, and we HAVE to do everything possibly to limit election theft. Only then we might have a real ass whipping
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. "In 2004, all the conventional wisdom was against Bush."
Republicans have quite a number of built in advantages that analyses like the ones in the OP always leave out- which, IMO explains why Bush is still in the Whitehouse.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. confident not complacent
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Ysabel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
53. thanks grantcart (thanks prhgndumass too) k and r...
:)
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Ysabel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-07-08 11:36 AM
Response to Original message
54. p.s. permission request to pass this info on (may i use your words and not have to rewrite)...
?

- especially since i don't want to screw it all up (lol) and you did a good job...
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. I didn't notice this earlier and of course you have my permission
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Ysabel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-10-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. thanks grantcart... :)
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-08-08 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
56. 417-121, baby!
And I'm stickin' to it!
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