Two Florida lawsuits against DNC pending...two already dismissed. Enough.

[madfloridian]

Makes one wonder how long this will go on. In addition to the Florida effort to crash the DNC fundraising for months on end...the lawsuits are taking time and money from the DNC that they need to prepare for the general election.

Yesterday we learned that Florida Senate Minority leader Steve Geller had filed a lawsuit against the DNC.

FORT LAUDERDALE, FL -- Three Florida delegates, including the state's Senate Democratic leader have filed a federal lawsuit against the Democratic National Committee claiming the DNC violated their constitutional rights by barring them from the party's national convention.

"This litigation addresses the view of Howard Dean and the Democratic National Committee that 1.75 million Democrats can be ignored at will,” said Geller. “We believe we’ve found a winning legal strategy that will once and for all force the DNC to not only obey its own rules but to listen to the voices of millions of Democrats in one of the most influential states in the nation.”

There is yet another suit pending, due to be heard on May 28.

Two Florida Lawsuits Pending Over Democratic Delegates

Two federal courts in Florida are dealing with lawsuits by Florida Democrats, against the Democratic National Committee, over Florida’s lack of representation at the national convention. DiMaio v Democratic National Committee, which had been filed in August 2007, has a hearing in U.S. District Court, Middle District, on May 28. The plaintiff is a Florida Democratic voter. The case has already been to the 11th circuit, which found a procedural error, so technically this is the new DiMaio case, not the original case. 8:08cv-672T.

The other case was filed May 22 by three delegates to the national convention, State Senator Steve Geller (who is an uncommitted superdelegate), Barbara Effman (who is for Hillary Clinton) and Percy Johnson (who is for Barack Obama). It is Geller v Democratic National Committee, 08-cv-60774, southern district, in Miami.

They can play the "I am uncommitted therefore I can sue" game all they want...but the lawsuits do nothing but push the agenda of the Clinton campaign.

The Dimaio lawsuit due to be heard on May 28 accuses the DNC of discriminating against white people in Florida

What an interesting turn of the worm. Sometime next week, we may have democrats suing democrats for carrying out a very democratic policy of advancing minorities. Steinberg and DiMaio acknowledge with a grin that their reverse racism accusation will ruffle feathers, but hope the conservative judiciary will be delighted to strike a blow against affirmative action and rule in their favor. Their only objective, they claim, is to see all of Florida's delegates seated based on the January 31st primary election.

Steve Geller has a history of threatening words toward the DNC and Dean. He not long ago assured them of .."mutually assured destruction."

Here is his defense of the almost 100% yes vote by Democrats in Florida.

Florida's Democrats argue that it was not their fault. They say that the law bringing the primary date forward was passed by a Republican-majority legislature. Even if they had wanted to protest, they did not have enough votes. (FALSE ARGUMENT: they did not have to win, they just had to try.)

"Florida is one of the two biggest swing states in the country," an angry Steve Geller told me, in his law firm's offices in Fort Lauderdale.

"I have polling data which suggests that at least a quarter of Democrats will stay at home in the general election - or vote for the republican candidate - if their votes are not counted in the nominating process.

"We are being given the death penalty by the Democratic National Committee, which - I have to say - will mean mutually assured destruction."

He himself is back up on You Tube in the famous video in which he mocks his own amendment on the floor of the Florida Senate.

Geller caught on video mocking his own amendment

The DNC members had handouts that included quotes by House Minority leader Dan Gelber brushing off Howard Dean, and the following transcript of Steve Geller making the motion to move the primary to Feb. 5:

Geller: "...So the Democratic leader and the Democratic leader pro tem are jointly making this motion, which we will duly show them later, that we tried not to have the election on, um, before (Feb. 5).
President: "And so Sen. Geller are you urging a negative vote or would you like us to pass this vote?"
Geller: "Oh no sir. We really, really want this. Don't we senator? (sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber).

These lawsuits are not the first either. There was one filed against the state by DNC delegate Jon Ausman, which was filed too late to have an effect.

But also Senator Bill Nelson joined Alcee Hastings and Corinne Brown to file a suit also based on civil rights.

Bill Nelson lost his suit on the civil rights basis.

Hinkle said the Democratic National Committee has a right to set its schedule for primaries. The national party penalized Florida because it broke party rules by jumping the state's primary date ahead to Jan. 29.

To rule otherwise would be a free-for-all with all 50 states, Hinkle said. He gave the plaintiffs the choice to re-file under the voting rights act against the state of Florida if they choose."

One has to wonder just how many lawsuits can be filed on the same issue before they might be considered of an harassing nature. :eyes:

[NJmaverick]

1. They should change their state slogan from the Sunshine State to

either

The crooked election state

The stolen election state

or


The screwed up election state

[Sancho]

63. I would not argue with you...we are the poster child state for election reform.

Eight years of Bush followed by Chain Gang Charlie Crist is not helping. I hope everyone is going to watch "Recount" on HBO. I'm sure it's all true and only half the story.

[DAGDA56]

2. I have to wonder who's funding these trips to court...lawsuites mean lawyers,

and lawyers aren't cheap. I just don't see much pro bono work being done here either.

[madfloridian]

6. Kendall Coffey did Nelson's pro bono.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1530

I know that Steinberg, the chair of the Tampa Democrats...is doing DiMaio's pro bono.

But it is costing the DNC money.

[DAGDA56]

7. Thank you!...nothing personal, but I am often taken aback when someone

actually has the facts on GD-P, as you do...it happens so rarely. Thanks for your posts/information!

[PassingFair]

10. She deserves the kudos!

I love it when she is accused of using
partisan "facts"!

:hi:

[madfloridian]

39. Some say my posts are not facts...only opinions that are wrong.

And I say to them, just ignore the posts. I figure they really are saying they just don't like what I am saying.

We have had enough of Florida...there should be no more lawsuits, no more threats to Dean, no more threats about anything.

This state is simply pathetic now.

Thanks for the kind words. I do try to keep it honest.

[SteppingRazor]

16. And Steve Geller's suit is being handled by people in Geller's law firm...

so I doubt they're charging either. :hi:

[havocmom]

3. Hillary hasn't been involved in protecting voters' rights until now

Where was she since 2000? Where was she when she agreed to the rules re MI & FL?

Hillary is in it for Hillary, not the voters, not the party, not the good of the nation.

She has made herself into the caricature of her the RW always portrayed. She has turned personal tragedy into a melodrama and is now more of a neocon enabler than she was when she rubber-stamped bush's war for profit.

[americanstranger]

4. An imaginary hearing....

Judge: Why is the plaintiff filing this suit?

Plaintiff: Because the DNC told us if we moved our primary, the results wouldn't count and our delegates would not be seated.

Judge: So what happened then?

Plaintiff: We moved our primary, and the results didn't count and the delegates have not been seated.

Judge: Case dismissed. Next....

---

- as

[madfloridian]

5. LOL

:hi:

[kay1864]

8. WTF?? Senate Minority leader Steve Geller VOTED for the early primary date!

"force the DNC to not only obey its own rules"

Uh Steve, would these be the rules YOU YOURSELF VIOLATED? Yeah, those rules.

Sheesh.

[madfloridian]

9. Common sense does not apply in this case.

Isn't it pathetic?

[kay1864]

17. My guess is that his lawsuit

is his way of saying "See, Florida voters? I'm sticking up for you!"

:crazy:




And please, don't look at the man behind the curtain who, uh, made sure their votes wouldn't count...

[SteppingRazor]

18. It's a little more complicated than that.

Should he have voted for the bill, which included the early primary date?

Or should he have voted against the bill, which also included a mandate for a verifiable paper trail for all voting machines (a change which, thanks to this bill being passed, will be implemented in time for the 2008 election)?

I dunno. The more I read up on this, talk to the people involved and whatnot, the more I come to realize that there's really no right or wrong side to the Florida debacle, just a whole bunch of rocks and hard places.

[kay1864]

19. I would agree with you, except for one thing...

as Senate Minority Leader, he should have used his influence to move the early primary date to a separate bill. Were he a junior senator, I could perhaps excuse his going along with the rest of the Senate, but not the SML. My guess is that he didn't even try to do so (else he would be trumpeting that action now).

More important, to then argue, a year later, for "obeying the rules" in a lawsuit makes him the worst sort of hypocrite.

[SteppingRazor]

21. Actually, he did put forth an amendment to move the primary date back to Feb. 5...

and he got every Democrat in the state senate (except one) to vote for the amendment -- which was soundly defeated nevertheless because of the state legislature's domination by Republicans.

Again, rocks and hard places.

[kay1864]

23. Well bully for him then...

Bona fide effort on his part. (and thanks for the info...I never could have deciphered that from the Fla Senate website--what a bureaucratic mess!)

But then why did he and nearly every other Dem in the Senate (and the House, for that matter) vote FOR the original bill?

Had they done so, they could legitimately argue they were "obeying the rules" and "standing up for the voters". By siding with the majority GOP, they lost the right to that kind of claim.

[SteppingRazor]

25. But if they had voted against it...

how many people would now be saying, "How DARE they vote AGAINST verifiable paper trails for voting machines??!!11!"

You do make a good point, though -- the thing was going to pass anyway because all the GOP was for it, so they could have not voted for it, knowing it was going to pass, and then gotten the paper trail while at the same time expressing their distaste for the early primary. But I don't know if it would have necessarily played out like that, as opposed to the other way -- them getting pilloried for not supporting verifiable voting. Certainly, at the time of the vote, the state Dems had a lot of pressure from national elected Dems to vote for the bill (Wexler was really instrumental in a lot of this, being a long-time advocate for election reform), while the DNC was threatening them with stripping all the delegates over the early primary.

I think, had they not voted for the bill, they could be more-honest advocates for seating the delegates now -- I certainly agree with you on that. I just don't think you can necessarily stick a black hat on our state legislature's Dems and cal them the bad guys. I think that headgear is more apt for Speaker Marco Rubio, who literally laughed in Dan Gelber's face over the proposal to move the primary back to Feb. 5, and Jim King, who dismissed the same amendment in the state senate with that snide, "You really want us to vote for this?" comment in an exchange that has come back to haunt Geller ever since.

[kay1864]

26. Yeah, you got a good point there...

I keep forgetting that there was more to the bill. Dang amendments oughta be against the law--make 'em separate bills. Of course, that would mean our members of Congress (Federal and State) might have to work more than 100 days a year... :P

Didn't know about Rubio and Gelber...where do you get all your info? Miami Herald? St Pete Times?

[SteppingRazor]

27. Scuse me ... that should have been David Rivera, not Rubio...

Rivera was, at the time, the chair of the state House's governmental operations committee, which oversaw consideration of the amendment.


as for where I get my info, that particular anecdote came up when I talked to Geller about a week ago, though it has come up in print before, I'm fairly certain.

[kay1864]

29. (Woody Allen voice) Did you hear that? Did you hear him toss that in?

"'When I talked to Geller last week', did you hear that?"

Oh you name-dropper you :P




Seriously I'm impressed. I haven't talked to any legislators, since...well, never, to be honest.

[SteppingRazor]

30. Shhhhhh!

Hey, you asked! :P

[madfloridian]

40. That video will haunt him...as it well should. It showed his true purpose

more than any words could have done.

It was an embarrassing display on a senate floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r25wUeMAwdE

Many have it saved to their hard drives now, so it won't disappear again.

[Sancho]

48. Moving to a separate date was what the GOP wanted! They intended to load

the early primary date with a bunch of crazy constitutional amendments and hope that in a closed primary, very few Democrats would bother to show up to vote for nothing except the amendments. The GOP could then take over taxes, schools (vouchers), privatize even more government, shoot down major unions in education, etc. As it happened, by having a joint primary some amendments never made it to the ballot, several were passed and some were defeated.

[Iceburg]

62. Good point /nt

[madfloridian]

20. You are just very wrong. The Democrats worked with the GOP

to get that in there about the paper trail. They worked together since March 2006 at least....Marco Rubio, Jeb's bud...bragged about having them all on aboard even then.

So that is just not true. I can find post after post, but then again, I doubt it would matter.

That paper trail helped the Democrats to excuse their 115 to 1 vote.

And you just do not keep suing your own party in a year when we were destined to win.

[SteppingRazor]

22. Wrong about what?

All I said is that the bill included both a verifiable paper trail and the early primary date. Just a factual statement. The fact that the Senate president and the governor -- both Republicans -- also wanted the paper trail doesn't affect what was actually in the bill.

[madfloridian]

33. I don't know how to answer you.

I really don't. If it is that simple to you, then I can't explain it.

Steve Geller threatened the DNC with destruction. He laughed his amendment off the floor. Wasserman Schultz is on tirades all over TV, hurting the party overall.

The Democrats in FL worked with the GOP to move up the primary. Then they at once issued propaganda to the media and via email that Dean was to blame. That he was disenfranchising them.

They knew exactly what they were doing.

They hurt fundraising, thus hurting the 50 state strategy which thus affected other states.

That is all I can say. :shrug:

[Sancho]

68. I agree that SOME Fl leaders were in on the primary change...

I don't think the general public or even local state representatives worried about it or thought about "consequences" until AFTER the date was set and the DNC acted. By then it was too late to change it. If there was a ballot initiative in Florida for Democrats that said:

___a.) we don't care when the primary date is, but we want the votes to count
___b.) we would rather vote on a particular day for some weird reason and not be counted in the national primary

What would Floridians vote? It is not right to punish the people who registered and went to the polls as the legal state election required because of a date change by a few idiots. Punish the idiots, not the voters.

The problem was mostly broadcast in the summer of 07 near the end of the legislative session. That was the first time that I saw much discussion.

Even if the FL leadership was dead wrong - and I have no problem with removing those committee members, excluding individuals from the convention, or whatever seems appropriate - to disenfranchise the voters is what puts us in court and makes independent voters angry at the Democrats.

[Sancho]

47. I have to agree with you after talking to a couple of local state reps...

they also were clear that the entire process involved several election changes, an amendment referendum, and instructions from the state leaders. I was told that the date was moving earlier no matter what, and that most representatives were voting for a paper ballot and hoping that a large Democratic turn out would help on several amendments.

At least one is an Obama supporter...and it doesn't appear an attempt to favor any particular Democratic candidate.

[hokies4ever]

53. He's trying to save face because of that video of him mocking the DNC

No doubt the DNC will play this during the national TV coverage of the 5/31 hearing. That's why Geller is filing the lawsuit now. His political future is about to end in the most embarrassing ways on the most national of stages.

[myrna minx]

11. Thank you for, as always, providing

this illuminating information. :hi:

[Sam Ervin jret]

12. This is the first chance I've gotten to see that vote video.

It is a disgrace.

Logically it should be all the evidence needed in these cases. But when did logic ever enter into politics.

I hope the DNC not only wins but that the people filing suit against be ordered to pay court costs. Is that possible in this case?

When a penalty is paid for such obviously flagrant abuses of our court system we have less foolishness.

[madfloridian]

14. It was taken down from You Tube.

One of our Canadian friends, who just posted here yesterday, searched through all the RNC research videos, found it, and put it back up. He posted in my link above to the video. Kudos to him.

[madfloridian]

38. That is a shocking video.

It is now safely on the hard drives of several DUers, who will have it backed up in case it disappears again.

It is descriptive of Florida's Democrats in many ways, sadly.

[AtomicKitten]

13. Your posts add the much needed subtitles to the freakshow going on in FL.

Wow ... and thanks.

K&R

[madfloridian]

37. It really is getting ridiculous.

Thanks for the kind words.

[progressoid]

15. Hmm...I say they try at least three more before the convention!

:crazy::crazy::crazy:

[barack the house]

24. Best to donate to moveon if maxed to Obama to get more McCain ads out there.

[madfloridian]

32. The DNC needs some money also.

I have tried to figure out why the grassroots did not support Dean's candidacy financially. It was to our benefit to have done so.

[KSinTX]

28. Keep up the good work, mad

I'm mad too. I've spent 20 years of my life protecting and defending and when I'm finally settled someplace to really feel the impact of all of this, I am hit by the same people I stayed in service to avoid it makes me want to puke.

[madfloridian]

42. I share the anger. My state is so divided now.

Just not sure we will ever see Democrats here the same again.

[klyon]

31. This is all so silly. Why can't we do the sensible thing and

seat the delegates in a 50 /50 split so that Fla and Mi have no influence in the outcome. Would that put Obama over the top? Clinton would never go for that, but it seems fair to me. She did not win so she should not benefit.

[Skarbrowe]

34. I find it very hard to vote for someone who doesn't want my vote to count.

I have been saying that I would vote for the Democratic candidate for months now and after being really angry that my vote didn't count in January, I had hoped that once Obama had pretty much wrapped it up that he would try to get my vote counted. Better late than never. But the fact that he doesn't even want to address the FL and MI voters who were not the assholes in the legislature who screwed this up, shows me I may now not have any reason to vote for him in the GE. I would never, ever vote Republican, but it is true that a lot of us are thinking about staying home.

Hey, we're old marauding women who don't have all these big GE concerns for at least the next four years. heh heh We know we can be thrown under the bus and all these new young voters can put Obama in the White House. That would be great. I just don't feel like voting for someone who doesn't want to fight for my vote even after he knows he's got the nomination.

I will be trying in November. I will be trying very hard to vote the Democratic candidate.

[madfloridian]

35. Obama and Bill Clinton say 50% is good...Hillary says no...only 100%

If you think that is wrong...just vote for John McCain.

[Skarbrowe]

45. That's exactly what might happen. Not by me, but by a lot people.

I'm hoping that Obama has enough supporters to still win even though his own supporters have turned off god knows how many Democrats. I'm assumiing once we get to see old man McCain in action we can try to put some of this behind us.

This split in the party might be much bigger than you realize. So you really shouldn't be telling people to go vote for McCain. Sounds so childish.

[madfloridian]

46. Please stop.

you are making my head ache. There has been so much spinning so much hate, so much ugliness over this state.

For that reason alone, because Hillary has manipulated my state...she should not be president.

[Skarbrowe]

49. Me stop? I'm not posting every day. Who is spinning what? I'm a bit

miffed because I didn't get my vote counted. That's my right. And I'm pretty darn sure if this was turned around and Obama had been fighting for Florida and Michigan to be seated..whoa, would we be hearing another story.

It's simply a very observable probability.

I won't post on your OP anymore, madfloridian. I think this is maybe the third time I've done so over months.

And Skinner wonders why they had a problem getting money. Way over half his members have been shunned.

[madfloridian]

51. Sorry about that vote. Hillary says vote for McCain.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x137109

[Iceburg]

64. By manipulated do you mean fighting to ensure the votes are counted

Obama is on the wrong side of this issue. He had ample opportunity to demonstrate some leadership on this issue. That he has not championed the very essence of democracy -- counting all of the votes, is a stain on the Democratic party that makes the 2000 SCOTUS decision pale in comparison.

[madfloridian]

36. Sun Sentinel calls out Geller for the 2008 Chutzpah Award. He voted for early primary

and is now suing the party.

http://weblogs.sun-sentinel.com/features/columnists/papi/blog/2008/05/i_know_its_the_thing.html

"I know it's the thing to do, particularly when you're talking about a bunch of lawyers. But come on. State Senator Steve Geller's lawsuit against the Democratic National Committee earns him an early nomination for the 2008 Chutzpah Award.
It's not just that he's suing his own party. U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson and U.S. Rep. Alcee Hastings have already beaten him to that. But Geller, who -- surprise -- is a lawyer, was part of the legislative process that put Florida in this bind.

And even AFTER the Republican-led legislature moved the date forward, the state Dems could have come up with some other solution.

I offer this snippet from a Sept. 24, 2007 story by reporter Joe Kollin:

"Florida Democrats said it wasn't their fault the date was set for Jan. 29; the Republican-controlled Legislature did it. But Democratic leaders said they ruled out other options, such as holding a Democratic-only primary, a caucus or a mail-in vote.

"We looked at other alternatives and some looked serious and some not so serious, but at the end of the day we came down to the primary on Jan. 29 as the only way to have a fair and independent election,' said party Chairwoman Karen Thurman.

"The problem, she said, is that municipalities throughout Florida moved their elections to Jan. 29 and the state set the same date for Floridians to vote on a constitutional amendment for a 'super' homestead exemption. This was done because presidential primaries attract people to the polls and without Democratic candidates on the ballot, Democratic voters might not show up to vote on the other issues.

" 'So there are a lot of reasons we stand together today to say to voters of the state to vote on Jan. 29 and to be assured their vote will count,' she said. Thurman said the national party isn't likely to carry out its threat to ignore the delegates selected by Florida Democrats."

It is just unreal the media doesn't really cover this stuff. Kudos to this writer.

[Sancho]

50. The whole thing was convoluted...for example, in Pinellas

there was a vote for a tax referendum for schools that Bill Heller had taken years to get on the ballot. If only the GOP primary was at stake, there was virtually no chance of passage. With a democratic primary, the tax referendum passed (and my wife has a job for the next 4 years!).

There was no way to get GOP election supervisors to agree, pay for a separate primary, or figure out what local or state amendments went on what ballot. Once the date of Jan. 29 was set, there was no chance of anything except that date for a democratic primary.

[madfloridian]

41. Geller is getting all kinds of media play on this.

Just like Bill Nelson, Wasserman Schultz, Corinne Brown.

Here is search in the news section of Google...building up a reputation by suing and threatening the party.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&scoring=d&q=%22steve+geller%22&btnG=Search

[BzaDem]

43. Can't you accept that there are people (many people) who disagree with you on this?

[madfloridian]

44. I accept that many disagree. Doesn't bother me.

I just keep posting well-sourced posts to present what I see as a tactic by my state to destroy the party for its own self-serving purposes.

[Sancho]

52. I would have to put "blame" for the mess on three major reasons:

1.) State leaders all over the country were trying to manipulate the calendar and the DNC "rules" were selectively enforced which opened the door for an unfair primary process. SC, NH, etc. should not have been allowed to change dates without penalty. The DNC needs a rotating or single day primary.

2.) The GOP took advantage of DNC and state leaderships to manipulate local and state ballots and ensure more confusion (certainly in Fl).

3.) The DNC was too slow to see what was happening and react to fix things early in the primary season before a crisis ensued.

All that being said, there are lots of quotes, videos, and examples of various politicians taking advantage and failing to put the best interest of the Democratic party forward. Fl has too many of those people unfortunately, and Madfloridian has correctly pointed them out. I really don't think any of the candidates including Hillary or Obama anticipated or planned a primary manipulation and now they simply do whatever is in their best interest.



Overall, I'd rather the DNC take action to include the voters and save the primary before the general election is lost instead of going to court with an unknown and likely undesirable result. I realize this would possibly favor one candidate over another, but winning in November is the goal.

If anyone is punished, it should be those state officials that acted like idiots, not the voters of MI and FL. That part is my opinion.

[madfloridian]

54. I disagree with this part very much. The DNC followed the rules from day one.

3.) "The DNC was too slow to see what was happening and react to fix things early in the primary season before a crisis ensued."

The rules were set, the two states deliberately disrupted the process.

[Sancho]

55. Maybe, but if the DNC was doing right, the rules had a flaw built in...

not anticipating that a GOP legislature could affect the date or that excluding delegates might affect a group of voters (like Hispanics) could result in an unfair process. We can disagree about DNC rules, but I'm willing to accept a resolution that doesn't rely on lawsuits or leave voters angry at the DNC in November.

I think the conflict is that a resolution to include MI and FL might favor a candidate over the other no matter how the delegates were apportioned...that is unfortunate, but could happen. I think that the "two states" were NOT the voters from MI and FL. The voters really never had time or information to do anything about the primary dates.

If the DNC makes no changes, there will certainly be a continuation of lawsuits and loss of independent voters in swing states.
If the DNC seats delegates in a late minute action, the voters may be happy, but some candidate's supporters will object.
If there are revotes, it would be fair but that is the best way to avoid court cases and loss of independent voters.
One option (that many on DU don't like but is popular in many less angry places) is that Obama and Hillary agree to seat delegates and run together.

Which of the above would be MOST LIKELY to win in November or is there another option? Which one do you think will happen?

[stillcool]

58. I'm not sure I understand...

what the 447 members of the "Democratic National Committee", representing every state, voting on the rules for selecting delegates in August of 2006, has to do with all this. 2 states out of 50 intentionally broke the rules, with full knowledge of what the consequences would be. "Democratic Candidates" run for office according to "Democratic Rules". And yet, you attempt to blame the "Democratic National Committee", and a "Democratic Candidate" because you live in a state that doesn't abide by the rules?

[Sancho]

60. As I've said before...

if you make rules about dates, but make "exceptions" (like SC, NH, etc. moving their dates) and also apply rules that can't be enforced (like the FL GOP controlling primary dates no matter what the local representatives do) and apply rules that most voters have no knowledge of until after the "punishment" then you are asking for trouble.

Many months before the actual primary in Florida, the vast majority of Floridians were completely unaware of date changes or penalties. The only mention of issues were the amendments and voting machines and cost of housing insurance and taxes.

Before the primaries, a few "experts" (like USF's McManus) have been on record stating that application of the "rules" would be unfair, cause lawsuits, and disenfranchise voters. Unfortunately, we only saw what the experts were predicting after the fact.

If you had a school with a rule that "you can't run in the hall" that allowed SOME kids to run in the hall and punished some kids but not others and punished kids who had never seen the rule; wouldn't you argue or report to the principal? Now you have lawsuits and there is a possibility that a proper lawsuit has a chance of overturning the entire primary process! I hope not, but the legal scholars have been clear that is a possibility here.

The fact that some states moved their dates, even with the blessing of the DNC, is a real legal problem because the courts MIGHT decide that was unfair. The fact that ANY voter was not represented (especially if they were black, female or Hispanic or whatever) could also be considered legally unfair.
The fact that the GOP here set the primary date, loaded it with important local and state issues, and stated before it came to the floor that they would not pay for separate primaries forced some of the FL state representatives into doing the best that they could even though Some of the Fl leadership was clearly off the wall. Punishing all for the sins of a few is unfair.

The punishment of removing delegates was a bad idea as a consequence of breaking rules. It would be ok to punish the errant FL leaders in some way. All that is going to happen by punishing voters is BAD: 1.) lawsuits, 2.) Losing crossover voters and new registrations, 3.) Possibly losing in November.

What have you accomplished? Do you think that Florida will comply next election? Hell no. The GOP run legislature doesn't even have Democratic opponents in some districts. Even if they did, this mess HELPS them get votes from irate citizens. They'll put the date whenever they want next time again and we'll have McBush in office a second term! Why be stupid? The DNC will never enforce these rules in the long run, and Dean knows it and has already talked about changing the system. For now, Democrats run the risk of a GOP court naming the candidate and/or losing the November election.

[stillcool]

65. If as you say.. the Florida State Democratic Party

has no intention of complying with the Democratic National Committee's rules, they have no business being a part of the national party. Vote for McCain. I for one, am sick and tired of Florida fucking with our national elections.

Florida Dems defy Dean on primary date
By Sam Youngman
Posted: 06/12/07 07:58 PM
Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), is trapped in a high-stakes game of chicken with party leaders in Florida.
They warned him yesterday not to “disenfranchise” state voters and risk being blamed for a debacle on the scale of the 2000 recount.

The warning comes amid alarm over a decision Sunday by state Democratic leaders to embrace Jan. 29 as the primary date. They are defying DNC headquarters and daring it to follow through on its threat to disqualify electors selected in the primary and punish candidates who campaign there.

But the DNC is not backing down. The committee bought time with a statement late yesterday saying, “The DNC will enforce the rules as passed by its 447 members in Aug. 2006. Until the Florida State Democratic Party formally submits its plan and we’ve had the opportunity to review that submission, we will not speculate further.”

Dean does not, in any case, have the power to waive party rules, a DNC spokeswoman said. The entire committee would have to vote again to do that.
------------------
Carol Fowler, chairwoman of the South Carolina Democratic Party, said she won’t move that state’s primary, scheduled for Feb. 2, unless the national committee allows her. “I’m going to do what the DNC tells me to,” Fowler said. “I’m not willing to violate the rules. The penalties are too stiff.”


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/florida-dems-defy-dean-on-primary-date-2007-06-12.html

Posted: August 27, 2007, 6:05 PM ET
DNC Moves to Stop Primary Frontloading
The Democratic National Committee moved over the weekend to penalize Florida for moving up its primary date to Jan. 29 -- a violation of DNC rules that prohibit states from holding nominating polls before Feb. 5. The committee said the Sunshine State would be stripped of its delegation at the party's National Convention in 2008 if the state does not reschedule its primary in the next 30 days.

As the nation's fourth-most-populous state, Florida has 210 delegates and has played a major role in recent presidential elections. Florida's decision to advance its primary follows the increasing trend of states pushing up their contests in order to gain relevance in the election.
"Rules are rules. California abided by them, and Florida should, as well. To ignore them would open the door to chaos," said Garry Shays, a DNC member from California. California -- with its 441 delegates -- moved its primary to Feb. 5, along with more than a dozen other states.
-----------------------------------------

The DNC gave Florida the option of holding a Jan. 29 contest but with nonbinding results, and the delegates would be awarded at a later official date.

Florida Democratic Committee Chairwoman Karen Thurman said this option would be expensive -- as much as $8 million -- and potentially undoable. Another option would be to challenge the ruling in court.

"We do represent, standing here, a lot of Democrats in the state of Florida -- over 4 million," Thurman said, according to the New York Times. "This is emotional for Florida. And it should be."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/politics/july-dec07/florida_08-27.html

Lawmakers in US state Michigan approve moving presidential primary to January despite rules
The Associated Press
Published: August 30, 2007

LANSING, Michigan: Michigan lawmakers have approved moving the state's U.S. presidential nomination contests to January, three weeks earlier than party rules allow, as states continue to challenge the traditional primary election calendar to gain influence in the race.

Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm is expected to sign the bill passed Thursday that would move the contest to Jan. 15, but approval of the switch is far from certain. A disagreement among state Democratic leaders over whether to hold a traditional ballot vote or a more restricted caucus is complicating final action.

If the date moves up, Michigan Democrats risk losing all their national convention delegates, while Republicans risk losing half.
------------------------------------
"We understand that we're violating the rules, but it wasn't by choice," Michigan Republican Chairman Saul Anuzis said, noting that state Democrats first proposed moving the date to Jan. 15.
"We're going to ask for forgiveness and we think ... we will get forgiveness."
----------------------------------
Florida Democrats decided to move their state's primary to Jan. 29. The national party has said it will strip Florida of its presidential convention delegates unless it decides within the next few weeks to move the vote to a later date.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/31/america/NA-POL-US-Primary-Scramble.php?WT.mc_id=rssap_america

Published: Monday, September 24, 2007
Florida defies Dems, moves up primary
Associated Press
PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. — The Florida Democratic Party is sticking to its primary date — and it printed bumper stickers to prove it.
State party leaders formally announced Sunday their plans to move ahead with a Jan. 29 primary, despite the national leadership's threatened sanctions.
The Democratic National Committee has said it will strip the Sunshine State of its 210 nominating convention delegates if it doesn't abide by the party-set calendar, which forbids most states from holding primary contests before Feb. 5. The exceptions are Iowa on Jan. 14, Nevada on Jan. 19, New Hampshire on Jan. 22 and South Carolina on Jan. 29.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20070924/NEWS02/709240045/-1/

Democrats vow to skip defiant states
Six candidates agree not to campaign in those that break with the party's calendar. Florida and Michigan, this includes you.
By Mark Z. Barabak, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 2, 2007
The muddled 2008 presidential nomination calendar gained some clarity Saturday -- at least on the Democratic side -- as the party's major candidates agreed not to campaign in any state that defies party rules by voting earlier than allowed.

Their collective action was a blow to Florida and Michigan, two states likely to be important in the general election, which sought to enhance their clout in the nominating process as well.
Front-runner Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina in pledging to abide by the calendar set by the
Democratic National Committee last summer. The rules allow four states -- Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina -- to vote in January.
The four "need to be first because in these states ideas count, not just money," Edwards said in a written statement. "This tried-and-true nominating system is the only way for voters to judge the field based on the quality of the candidate, not the depth of their war chest."

Hours later, after Obama took the pledge, Clinton's campaign chief issued a statement citing the four states' "unique and special role in the nominating process" and said that the New York senator, too, would "adhere to the DNC-approved calendar."

Three candidates running farther back in the pack -- New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and Sens. Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut and Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware -- said Friday they would honor the pledge, shortly after the challenge was issued in a letter co-signed by Democratic leaders in the four early states.
--
Florida, the state that proved pivotal in the 2000 presidential election, is again a source of much upheaval. Ignoring the rule that put January off-limits, legislators moved the state's primary up to Jan. 29, pushing Florida past California and other big states voting Feb. 5.Leaders of the national party responded last month by giving Florida 30 days to reconsider, or have its delegates barred from the August convention in Denver.

"The party had to send a strong message to Florida and the other states," said Donna Brazile, a veteran campaign strategist and member of the Democratic National Committee, the party's governing body. "We have a system that is totally out of control."

Despite that warning, Michigan lawmakers moved last week to jump the queue, voting to advance the state's primary to Jan. 15.

Michigan defies parties, moves up primary date
JAN. 15 DECISION COULD SET OFF STAMPEDE OF STATES
By Stephen Ohlemacher
Associated Press
Article Launched: 09/05/2007 01:34:57 AM PDT

WASHINGTON - Michigan officially crashed the early primary party Tuesday, setting up showdowns with both political parties and likely pushing the presidential nomination calendar closer to 2007.

Gov. Jennifer Granholm signed a bill moving both of Michigan's presidential primaries to Jan. 15. Michigan's move threatens to set off a chain reaction that could force Iowa and New Hampshire to reschedule their contests even earlier than anticipated, perhaps in the first week in January 2008 or even December 2007.
-------------------------------------------
The national parties have tried to impose discipline on the rogue states. On the Republican side, states that schedule contests before Feb. 5 risk losing half their delegates to next summer's convention, though some are banking that whoever wins the GOP nomination will eventually restore the delegates.
Democrats have experienced similar problems, but party officials hoped they had stopped the mad dash to move up by threatening to strip Florida of all its convention delegates for scheduling a primary Jan. 29 and by persuading the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in the party-approved early states.

The decision by the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in approved early states renders voting in the rogue states essentially non-binding beauty contests.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6804685?source=rss

Kucinich Files Affidavit To Remove Name From Michigan's Primary Shortly Before Deadline

October 10, 2007 8:19 a.m. EST
Ayinde O. Chase - AHN Staff
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008781843
Dover, NH (AHN) - The Kucinich for President campaign Tuesday afternoon officially requested that Kucinich's name be withdrawn from the Michigan Democratic primary ballot. The affidavit came by way of to the Michigan Secretary of State's office.The Ohio Congressman and Democratic Presidential candidates
National Campaign manager Mike Klein said in the statement, "We signed a public pledge recently, promising to stand with New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, and the DNC-approved 'early window', and the action we are taking today protects New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status, and Nevada's early caucus."
The statement continued: "We support the grassroots nature of the New Hampshire, small-state primary, and we support the diversity efforts that Chairman Dean and the DNC instituted last year, when they added Nevada and South Carolina to the window in January 2008. We are obviously committed to New Hampshire's
historic role." Klein who actually recently moved to Dover said, "We will continue to adhere to the DNC-approved primary schedule."

Governor Granholm and other Michigan Democratic leaders have openly criticized the decision by several presidential candidates to keep their names off the state primary ballot. The Michigan lawmakers are taken back by Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John Edwards and Bill Richardson's decision to withdraw their names from the January 15th ballot.

The only ones who remain on Michigan's primary ballot are Hillary Clinton, Mike Gravel and Chris Todd.

December 1, 2007, 11:42 am
Democrats Strip Michigan of Delegates
By The New York Times

In a widely expected move, the Democratic National Committee voted this morning to strip Michigan of all its 156 delegates to the national nominating convention next year. The state is the party’s rules by holding its primary on Jan. 15. Only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada are allowed to hold contests prior to Feb. 5.
The party imposed a similar penalty on Florida in August for scheduling a Jan. 29 primary.
The Democratic candidates have already pledged not to campaign in the state, and Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as well as John Edwards and Gov. Bill Richardson, asked to have their names removed from the state ballot.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/democrats-strip-michigan-delegates/

Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.
Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the
Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar...

Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.


House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

Potential presidential nominees who did not want to appear on the Michigan January 15, 2008 presidential primary ballot could submit an affidavit with the Secretary of State by 4:00 p.m. on October 9, 2007. The January 15 date violates DNC rules, and five Democrats did submit the required affidavit: Biden, Edwards, Kucinich, Obama and Richardson. Clinton, Dodd and Gravel will appear on the Democratic ballot.

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/chrnothp08/mi100907pr.html

[Sancho]

66. Your links give away the problem! Look at the Florida date that you report!

June 07 was immediately at the end of the legislative session (there are special sessions, etc.) where the GOP had put the general ballot date on Jan. 29 and closed shop and gone home! Some Democratic leadership were trying to change the date and they were wrong to do so....BUT

Most of the Democratic state representatives and senators were trapped! They would have to have a special session (which the Gov. would not call) and try to vote against the majority (which wasn't going to happen) or go along with the Jan. 29 date, including important constitutional and local amendments about taxes, schools, term limits, voting machines, etc.

IF they ran a separate Democratic primary later, they would have to pay for it, face about 2/3 rds adversarial local election supervisors, and let the GOP win ALL the local amendments since only GOP voters would be likely to show up on Jan. 29.

That is EXACTLY what two of my local representatives described to me.

I think that it was immediately well-known there was a problem. I don't think that there was anyone representing the DNC in Florida who could change it off of Jan. 29 once it was set. If the DNC want to fire Karen Thurman or whatever; that's fine with me!

FL was one of a lot of states playing games with the primary dates - that's not new nor wise. Before Jan. 29 there were local experts claiming that this might in up in court. As you know, our Gov. Crist is possibly going to be McCain's VP. He is also going to appoint 4 FL supreme court justices this year. DO YOU THINK HE WILL APPOINT A COURT THAT WILL DO ANYTHING TO HELP THE DNC in Fl? Do you think the US Supreme Court will do anything to help the DNC?

The GOP is laughing all the way to the bank on this one. They can wait until ONE DAY before the convention and then have a Florida judge rule the primary process invalid in some crazy way. What does the DNC do then? We've had 4 cases filed so far I think. Obviously, a court case can have all kinds of results, appeals, etc.

I can't believe that it is better to "enforce the rules" and take a chance in court than to simply back off and either revote, seat the delegates, or whatever.

Hey, I hate these GOP idiots, but they pulled a good one this time and it's working.

[stillcool]

69. Those links I provided...

were intended to 'give away' the problem...and the problem is Florida and Michigan, not the Democratic National Party. There was plenty of time for these 2 rogues states to remedy the situation so that they would not lose their delegates. They did not. There is no reason to believe, as you stated, that Florida will comply with the rules in our next Democratic Primary to select our nominee for President of the United States. Those 48 states that followed the Democratic rules should not be held hostage by Florida's threats and excuses, not now, not ever.

[Sancho]

72. They won't be held hostage by the Florida Democratic party...

You are now being held hostage by the GOP that is smarter than you. (See 2000 and 2004 when the majority voted for the losing President!).

You are playing into the same game again. You WILL be held hostage by the courts, swing states, and all sorts of other manipulations as long as you don't step back and see the forest for the trees.

You can get excited all that you want, but if you continue to allow the GOP to divide and conquer, then you may feel better, but you have to live in country with a Bush as a President.

I, for one, would rather beat up on the neocons and republicans than to beat up on 1.7 million Florida Democratic voters. I would have rather had Gore and Kerry as the President than Bush.

Florida voters are not "rogue". They are contributors and many work hard for a progressive agenda.

(Besides, you have to admit that Florida and Michigan have good college football teams also.)

[Sancho]

73. The flaw in the DNC deal was the "Four-state Pledge"

From the Florida Democratic Party

"What about the Four-State Pledge? Does this mean the presidential candidates are not coming to the state convention?

Many people are asking about the so-called “Four State Pledge” – the effort by the early states of Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina to maintain their privileged positions of influence in the nominating process. Also, the four early states informed the Florida Democratic Party that they would not allow the Presidential candidates to campaign in Florida even if we held an alternative process. We obviously don’t support this, but it is the hand we have been dealt. (Read three different versions of the infamous “Four State Pledge”) In reality, because of the hyper-importance of Iowa and New Hampshire in the 2008 Democratic race, our candidates likely would not have been able to spend much time anywhere else other than for fundraising. Rest assured, we’ll see the Democratic nominee – the next President of the United States of America – early and often during the general election."

http://www.fladems.com/page/-/documents/THREE_pledge_versions.pdf

http://www.fladems.com/page/-/images/makeitcount/20070918_4state_letter.pdf

The DNC rules were manipulated.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

56. Eat us! Hey, it's Thanksgiving Day! Eat us, we make a nice buffet!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIufyg09WnQ

Eat us, we make a nice buffet!
We lost the race with Farmer Ed,
eat us 'cause we're good and dead.
White man or red man from east, north or south,
chop off our legs, and put 'em in your mouth!

Eat me!
Sautéed or barbecued!
Eat me!
We once were pets but now we're food!
We won't stay fresh for very long!
So eat us before we finish this song!
Eat us before we finish this song!

[kwenu]

57. The judge should sanction them for a frivolous lawsuit and make them pay the DNCs legal costs.

The lawsuit is plain stupid.

[madfloridian]

67. This is the third effort by DiMaio. No judge has stopped him yet.

.

[kwenu]

70. Which is exactly why the lightning bolt is charging.

[Marnieworld]

59. I don't thank you enough

you're like DU's Florida correspondent. I really admire how you have decided to take this role for yourself and contribute in the way that you do. It's always good and always informative giving us a perspective and information not found elsewhere.

Thanks! :hi: :pals:

[madfloridian]

71. I appreciate that. I do it for myself, really

because it has angered me so much. It helps me keep my sanity amid words with Democrats here who used to be friendly but now are not.

It's a different world here.

I just posted this today as a reminder, but it is dropping because people don't want to hear that Florida Dems were in on it from the beginning.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x6122987

Thanks for the kind words.

[Political Heretic]

61. I have a growing hate in my heart for all things florida that begain in 2000

I am fighting it with all my might.