Feminism or Hillaryism? Victimhood and White Woman Entitlement

[redstate_democrat]

Alice Walker said it best, "I made my first white women friends in college; they were women who loved me and were loyal to our friendship, but I understood, as they did, that they were white women and that whiteness mattered."

It is a deep sadness to me that many of my feminist white women friends cannot see . Cannot see what he carries in his being. Cannot hear the fresh choices toward Movement he offers. That they can believe that millions of Americans –black, white, yellow, red and brown - choose Obama over Clinton only because he is a man, and black, feels tragic to me.

When I have supported white people, men and women, it was because I thought them the best possible people to do whatever the job required. Nothing else would have occurred to me. If Obama were in any sense mediocre, he would be forgotten by now. He is, in fact, a remarkable human being, not perfect but humanly stunning, like King was and like Mandela is. We look at him, as we looked at them, and are glad to be of our species. He is the change America has been trying desperately and for centuries to hide, ignore, kill. The change America must have if we are to convince the rest of the world that we care about people other than our (white) selves.
http://www.theroot.com/id/45469

Some of the middle-aged, older women who call themselves "feminist", who complain about not being seen as an equal to men, have literally jumped the shark with their support for Hillary Clinton. These women claim to want to be seen as an equal to men out of one side of their mouth, but out the other side, they want to be given an advantage for being a woman. When Hillary Clinton openly states that women should vote for her because "we need a woman president", she is asking for an advantage over a man, Obama, simply because she is a woman, something he will never be, and something she had no choice in becoming. Why should women vote for Hillary Clinton because she is a woman? If Obama had asked men to vote for him because he is a man, there would be an outcry from women across the country. Is it not sexist to discriminate against men? The suggestion that it isn't is sexist in and of itself.

These women want it both ways. They want the loser to win because she is a woman. Nevermind the example this would set for young women, who, if this were to happen, would find that claiming sexism and gender inequality for their own failures could move them up the ladder. Hillary Clinton has lost this election through her own deeds. She ran a miserable, inferior campaign to that of Obama's. Now, these women are suggesting we reward her for that?

Not gonna happen.

I am a Womanist. I understand the feeling that some white women, who claim to be feminists, have. A lot are middle-aged, middle-class, professionals with a sense of entitlement, who believe that they have been wronged, that they are being held down by men, and they are angry about it. See Geraldine Ferraro. However, on this issue, with Hillary, they are wrong. No one is holding Hillary Clinton down but herself. She is not entitled to anything. She has been given every advantage, every benefit of the doubt, and was given at least a mile long early start on her competitors. Obama worked harder and smarter than her, and he has won the nomination as a result.

This rabid jumping off the cliffs of some of her supporters is really shocking. They have threatened to vote for McCain, who would appoint judges who would roll back the clock on women's reproductive rights, if they don't get their way. This leads me to believe that what we're dealing with here are a bunch of middle income to upper income, privileged women who know nothing or care nothing about the average woman. What about the poor, single mother living in Brooklyn or Detroit who already has two kids, works full time and attends school full time, who accidentally becomes pregnant? She can't afford another child and might need to have a safe abortion. These Hillaryists (not feminists) don't give a shit about her or else they would NEVER even think about voting for John McCain. What about the woman who has been sexually harassed on the job and who won't submit to a quid pro quo for that promotion? These Hillaryists obviously don't care about her because they will vote for John McCain who has an abysmal record on civil rights, women's rights, and who would appoint judges which would make it harder for women to bring sexual harassment suits.

These women, in my opinion, are the silk handkerchief, power hungry elitist feminists who are more concerned with being the "first woman " and their own career advancement, rather than being concerned about the average woman's problems.

They are called "Hillaryists", not feminists. I am embarrassed by them.

[Cali_Democrat]

1. Women threatening to leave the Democratic Party are pathetic

It seems to me that they want to simply punish the person that defeated the only woman who has really had a good shot at being president.

Obama has done nothing to Hillary. He hasn't launched any unfair attacks like she has.

Also, anyone voting for McCain because of Obama's supporters need a mental health exam. Anyone who lets anonymous posters influence their vote shouldn't be voting.

[GarbagemanLB]

3. Can you imagine what he COULD have done? Bosnia ads? NAFTA lie ads? Colombia ads? He had fucking KID

gloves on with Hillary, and STILL some of her supporters think it is HIS fault and that HE was the run who ran a dirty campaign.

Their skewed reality is unbelievable.

[AtomicKitten]

8. It is unreal; he could have buried her but chose not to.

So they have to make up imagined slights to bitch about. Oy.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cha]

46. OT, but do you know who that

is on the front with Obama of Newsweek with the O team?

[Cali_Democrat]

65. David Axelrod and Valerie Jarrett

[Cha]

95. Oh thank you, CaliDem~

Now I have a face to put to David Axelrod and I'll be looking up Valerie Jarrett:) Just did..

Posted September 21, 2007
WASHINGTON -- "She's always been the other side of Barack's brain." That's how an Obama insider described Valerie Jarrett as an Obama campaign aide announced Thursday night the former CTA chief and current Habitat Co. CEO is taking on a larger role to help her close friend win his White House bid.

The development comes as Jarrett, a charter member of Sen. Barack Obama's kitchen cabinet, has been formalizing her portfolio and stepping up the pace within the past few weeks as a top advisor within the campaign.

Jarrett brings a package of assets to the campaign, a sprawling managerial, political and financial enterprise. While Obama has demonstrated formidable fund-raising ability, he has not caught up with chief rival Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) in the polls that count the most -- in the four crucial states with the first presidential votes.

Jarrett has a close, long relationship with both Barack and Michelle Obama. Like the Obamas, Jarrett is a South Sider with deep ties to the University of Chicago."

<read more>
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lynn-sweet/valerie-jarrett-steps-up-_b_65350.html

[roguevalley]

86. they can all go. I'm old and white and I remember blatant sexist

bullshit. her losing is not sexist. she just lost. if anyone can't deal, go find another party. good luck with that.

[Shoelace]

99. some of them are Republicans in drag, some groups supported by Republicans too

I'm just now researching a group calling themselves "Clinton Supporters Count Too" run by one Cynthia Ruccia. They are now a PAC whose aim it is to get people to NOT vote for Obama. I just found out that about half their nearly 200,000 dollars raised in the past few days, comes from REPUBLICANS!!!

Look it up yourself on this website to see who gave what.

http://fundrace.huffingtonpost.com/neighbors.php?type=name&lname=Ruccia&fname=Cynthia

I'm a woman, a former HRC supporter who dislikes sexism too but I'll be damned if I'd ever vote for McInsane or any Republican who will kill pro choice, make sexism the cause celebre de jour and divide, conquer, split the Democratic party to boot. I'm so pissed I am shaking at this point. Fucking Republicans will do any dirty trick available to split our party so they maintain their corrupt, corporate, sexist regime in November for 4 more years.

Don't fall for it people. We must unite or be damned for 4 more years. At the end of that time, any thoughts about a 2 party system in our country will be history.

More info on this group here:

http://katalusis.blogspot.com/2008/05/clintons-supporters-count-too-holds.html

Their email addy is:

[email protected]

Please do email them, tell them to stop this ridiculous charade, pretending to be Democrats when they are selling out our whole country.

[WillyToad]

152. I agree, I believe the worst of the 'We hate Hillary' crowd are also Freepers with Obama buttons...

Once we have a nominee, they will be banned, or simply leave, as they are only here to join in, and inflame, the bashing and hatred.

[Shoelace]

204. yes, I've detected that too

lots of new posters out of the blue (or in this case "red") who come in, post inflammatory stuff about HRC, then they are out of here after the job is done.
Very sad!

[CreekDog]

2. i really, really support Obama, regardless of his race and gender

and I really, really dislike your post and I think it minimizes those who think Hillary really is the best candidate.

also, both candidates received votes from people who were proud that someone of their gender or race had a chance to be president. it wasn't limited to one side.

i just don't think this post is helpful right now.

[redstate_democrat]

5. You think MY post minimizes those who think Hillary really is the best candidate?

I never said one word about people supporting Hillary because they think she is the best candidate. What I AM talking about is this rabid hatred for Obama because he IS NOT A WOMAN and because he had the temerity to run against Hillary and actually win. They threaten voting for McCain out of pure hatred for the man and in doing so, will hurt themselves and all women. That is a selfish fucking thing to do.

But, make no mistake about it, some of these women are voting for Hillary because they desperately want a woman elected president. Everyone wants to know what will Hillary's women do once she is out of the race. Can she bring them to Obama? As if they don't have a mind of their own or something. It's Hillary or DIE with them. That, to me, is sick and twisted.

When you see the reaction some of Obama's female supporters have gotten, like Oprah, Caroline Kennedy, and NARAL for instance, there is no doubt in my mind that these women have lost sight of what really is important and are only interested in titles.

What's a fucking title if a man in a black robe controls your fucking womb?

[NashVegas]

109. Completely False Meme

What I AM talking about is this rabid hatred for Obama because he IS NOT A WOMAN and because he had the temerity to run against Hillary and actually win.

That's not even remotely what some Clintons supporters are pissed off about. It's not Obama, it's about the sexist and gender-based attacks that openly emanated from his campaign, his supporters, the blogosphere, and the media - both mainstream and so-called alternative media. (It is worth noting, however, the fact he dismissed a professional female journalist, calling her "Sweetie" on camera.)

These sexist and gender-based attacks were aimed both at Clinton and her supporters.

It is no coincidence that the first line of offense against a woman who talks about or threatens to stay home in November is "Rove v Wade!"

[sfaprog]

131. And I'm sure you won't have any trouble providing a link for a single instance of "gender-based

attacks that openly emanated from his campaign"

No trouble at all... :eyes:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

153. 5 hours and nothing....

[hfojvt]

143. I don't believe there were that many sexist attacks from his campaign

nor from his supporters or very many members of the left blogosphere. I've seen that as exxagerated as the supposed racist attacks from the Clinton camp.

[genna]

169. There have been sexist and racist remarks from the media in this campaign

As for overblown?

What would you call white voters Hillary Clinton remark, running ads for not stealing cars Bill Clinton remark, or he's leading because he's black Ferraro remark? That was race neutral language, huh?

Where is the conflict in Obama being both articulate and black or clean and black?


As for sexism, why would reporters call Hillary's laugh a cackle---do men cackle? They may not like her forced laugh because it rang false, but damn if it should be called a cackle.

How about all the discussion about whether or not Hillary was or should show cleavage in running for president? When was the last time a man's cleavage was discussed?

When did being a pansy or a lack thereof become a qualification for office? How about wimp or sissy being an attribute in a non-sexist world?

My personal favorite which had more cultural overtones (in the African American community than in the white American community) than not, "I can't help but thinking that Chelsea is being pimped out in some strange sort of way."


These are the only examples I can think of off the top of my head. If these aren't sexist and racist remarks, what do you need for them to rise to that genuine level?

[hfojvt]

180. I was careful not to mention the media

Yes, there has been sexism in the M$M and from FReeper sites and probably from FReeper types who briefly inhabit DU and other progressive sites. That, however, is not the fault of either Obama or his supporters.

As an aside, there have been discussions of both Bush and Gore's "packages" (although Bush sorta brought that on himself with the flight suit). Somerby quoted some of them at the Daily Howler or I would not have believed it.

I call exaggerated the nit-picking over every word, such as "down" or "claws" or "Banshee" (which happened on DU). I defended the Ferraro remarks as at least partly accurate and not deserving of the trashing she got for making them even when that was a lonely job for a Hillary Hater like myself. The 'hardworking whites' was just a clumsy way for her to say 'working class whites'. Another exaggeration was when Hillary used the word "spadework" innocently IMO, and the whole 'fairy tale' fiasco.

Also, wasn't the clean and articulate remark from Biden? And Obama came to Biden's defense.

[NashVegas]

195. First There Was

Jesse Jackson Jr's "Hillary's Tears" crap on nat'l TV.

Obama's "Claws come out" (although I personally found that one harmless, it's important to note because other equally harmless ('shuck & jive') comments from Andrew Cuomo received heavy-handed responses)

Obama's "Hillary *periodically* needs to attack someone when she's feeling down

The relentless "I'm a woman but I'm voting for Obama" blogosphere strategy was a gender-based attack to exploit divisions within the female and self-identified feminist vote. The repeated message was: "Bad girls vote for Clinton."

Some women claim that Clinton voters accused Obama women of being traitors; I never saw those accusations, maybe just because I don't hang out with that crowd but I *do* consider those women who used *their gender,* to imply women who planned on voting for Clinton were stupid or insult their choice in other ways, to *indeed* have betrayed their gender. If you can't see the difference in that, we don't have much to talk about.

Then you had the calls for HC to drop out, as far back as February, even though she was within about 10% of him. I call that a sexist attack because if it had been a guy, no one would have been doing that, certainly not with the venom that was out there. It started with the liberal internet blogoshere and "Liberal" MSM and when Pat Leahy went public with it, the idea was given some legitimacy. It only stopped when Dean & Obama's people got wise. This wasn't overt sexism, this was the institutional variety most people aren't aware of until someone points out that no one in their right minds would have imagined screaming for a candidate to step down and throw the game when the score was this close if it were two guys.

[hfojvt]

202. most of that list fits what I call exaggerated

Shuck and jive does not seem that harmless. Jesse Jackson's remark might have been a cheap shot, but it does not seem sexist. The Hillary's tears story was all over the M$M. Was that sexist? Didn't the same thing happen to Muskie? Wasn't it similar to the Dean scream and Gore sigh memes that were used to attack male Democrats?

Claws? Freddie Kruger has claws. Wolverine has claws. The Jackal has claws.

Periodically? Down? That's reaching for straws, as is the claim of a blogosphere strategy. Probably there is some of that, but much of the blogosphere is independent bloggers. Even still I do not see how it is sexist to use your female supporters to reach out to other women any more than it is racist for Clinton to use her black supporters to reach out to other blacks.

As for the betrayal accusations, the piece from NOW about Kennedy's endorsement being a betrayal of all women was certainly quite public. You may have to excuse some Hillary haters whether they are men or women. After Bill spent 8 years being a centrist and Hillary betrayed us on Iraq we sometimes have a hard time wondering how anybody who is informed could support Hillary. Did they forget the war vote, welfare reform, telecom deregulation, NAFTA, etc., etc.? Maybe it's a glass half empty thing. Sometimes they wonder, did we forget the 22 million jobs, the longest peactime expansion, the balanced budget, etc., etc.?

The venom, though, is not anti-women in many cases, it is anti-Clinton or anti-DLC. After she lost ten contests in a row including a big loss in Wisconsin, many saw the writing on the wall. They wanted to be united against our common enemy. They wanted Hillary and her supporters to stop tearing down the likely nominee.

After Gene Lyons wrote an Obama-bashing column I had an angry email exchange with him (at least I was angry, he was probably only bemused). I concluded with this on Feb. 7th

"Anyway, now that I have once again demonstrated my inability to write for Readers' Digest, and not managed to dent either your support for Hillary or your dislike/distrust of Obama, I would really like to see all four of us (you, me, Hillary and Obama) united in whacking Republican Senators for their refusal to include the needy in a stimulus package. As Bill Clinton might say, not only is helping the hungry, the cold, and the unemployed a better and faster stimulus for the economy, also "it is the right thing to do.""

We would accomplish more if we were fighting on the same side. Rush Limbaugh sees it. Almost everybody sees it except for Hillary and her more fanatical supporters. Now I do see her fighting, but she's not fighting for our side, she's just fighting for her side.

[NashVegas]

205. Okay ... We Have Nothing To Talk About

Jesse Jackson's remark might have been a cheap shot

the piece from NOW about Kennedy's endorsement being a betrayal of all women was certainly quite public.

That's not even remotely what I was talking about and anyway - Kennedy's a guy!

[hfojvt]

209. then you coulda let me have the last word

you talked about a number of things, I tried to respond to some of them.

Kennedy was the only person I was aware of having been accused of betraying women. He's a guy, but like many Democratic politicians has a record of going to bat for women and women's issues and organizations.

[PurityOfEssence]

6. More power to ya...

I'm reassured by the many posts from Obama supporters here who echo your optimism and enthusiasm, but voices like this tend to get more airplay, and this is a danger should he be the nominee.

I've felt very nervous about this whole enterprise since that night so long ago when Edwards dropped...

Hopefully you can nudge some of the hotheads in the right direction...

[femrap]

21. That is the best post I

have read at DU since the primary started. Thank you.

The more insults and ridicule I read here about women supporters of HRC, the less I will do for the dem party. And I worked my ass off in '04 and in '06.

There's plenty of time between now and the Election (if we actually get to have one), but right now I just don't know what I'll do....Cynthia McKinney is a possibility and I have NEVER voted for anyone but a dem. With no impeachment...and now this...I just don't know anymore.

It's all a circus and I don't think anything will change....we're going to run out of gas, food and money. No one can do anything about it....and women and children will AS ALWAYS feel it the worst.

Anyway...thx. You're probably being paid by the DNC to say these things.

[walldude]

32. I don't get what you are saying... you post this comment:

"It's all a circus and I don't think anything will change....we're going to run out of gas, food and money. No one can do anything about it....and women and children will AS ALWAYS feel it the worst"

Which I agree with 1000% and yet you post that some insults on a message board will cause you to do less to support the party who could possibly change these things? I believe they call this cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[femrap]

52. I don't think the dems can create more food, gas, or

money. Maybe we'll get some tax credits for installing solar panels...and maybe they'll institute a fair system of rationing...but I think I am now convinced that there is actually very little difference between the parties. They're owned by The Corporations and the Rothschild/Rockefellers and do as they are told.

When have the dems helped women and children....really? Didn't Bill tell poor women to get a job and leave their kids where??? John Roberts? Alito? Hell....Clarence Thomas????? Nope. Shirley Chisholm was right...'Men are men.' And 'Politicians are politicians.' November is a long way off...who knows? We'll probably be under martial law and I won't have to worry about voting.

[walldude]

63. If you don't think there is a difference in the 2 parties then

there is no point in having a discussion. At least both Dem candidates have put forth proposals for health care reform and neither will attempt to jam the SCOTUS with religious nuts.
Some people out here have no health care, they have lost their homes, they have children in Iraq, they can't afford to be as blaise' about this as you.

And looking at your whining about the treatment of women HRC supporters, right before seeing you bitch that Bill did nothing to help women makes me wonder what you are doing supporting her. If you want the candidate lest owned by the Washington elite then Obama is it. At least out of who's left.

[NeedleCast]

90. hyperboleman.jpg

[CreekDog]

67. hahah i would say it more if pay were involved ;)

:rofl:

[genna]

164. Look at the underlying assumption you are making in your post

There is a tradition in this country of calling people out when they have just sold us a bill of goods which are faulty. You are asking during the time that we are trying to pull ourseles together as a party to bury what the underlying problem was which made the debate so ugly.

it minimizes those who think Hillary really is the best candidate

Animosity

For those of us who would like to come back together and think of ourselves as ONE PARTY, for us, we need to understand what happened to the other side. I honestly have a bad feeling about these people.

I want to know who they are and what they are really upset about. I have read their posts and have continually noticed that they don't operate in the same reality as I do. Not only do we not share the same world view, but we don't even agree what fairness in a democracy means. The more someone tries to reason with them about the bigger picture, all they can do is talk about what fair means when that description itself is in dispute. Moving on means absolutely but all to them.

There is also the problem of race in this election. The original poster makes use of the racial divide over women's issues, but there happens to be a racial divide over what these Hillary women supporters see when they list all that is wrong in Obama. There is no way in the world a woman who considers herself to be astute about race can fail to see the portrait painted about Obama's dirty campaign or his dismissal of women in general and not see racial overtones.

Coming to a resolution

How can I or anyone else work shoulder to shouler with those who can't rationally explain how every single problem Hillary faced in this campaign has a direct correlation to Obama or his surrogates' behavior but blame Obama nonetheless? Especially when these people continue to say that Hillary Clinton's racially tinged insults were fair game... I can't imbue/impune her character on race but she can imbue/impune his with sexism.

Either they operate with the same rules and standards as I do or they expect the rest of us to fight with one or both arms tied behind their backs. It is unacceptable to keep throwing blows but claim assault when I'm defending myself.

[murielm99]

4. You paint with a very broad brush.

I am embarrassed by you, and you anti-women commentary.

[redstate_democrat]

7. You're a Hillary Supporter

and exactly the kind of person I am speaking about in my original post. I take your criticism with a grain of salt.

[murielm99]

11. Yes I am a Clinton supporter.

And I am a woman. I am also a Democrat first.

The things you said about women in your post will only serve to divide our party further.

I posted the other night about some of the people I have spoken to who will vote for McCain if Obama is the nominee. One is my uncle, a reliable Democrat. He is voting for Al Franken and McCain. That makes no sense to me. Another is a retired military man who will vote for every Democrat running here -- and McCain. His excuse is the POW thing. I spoke to the business manager for a local union. He is supporting Clinton because he says she has always been a friend to labor. His union is split about 49 to 51%, between Clinton and Obama, so they have not endorsed. He did tell me that many of the Clinton supporters are adamant about not voting for Obama. He will not do that, but he is going to have a hard time convincing some people.

None of these people are WOMEN. So take your thinly disguised anti-feminism and stick it where the sun don't shine.

[OzarkDem]

13. Good post

Playing games of divide and conquer to curry favor with men in power never helps women. Denigrating women who have the courage to stand up for women and issues important to them is never helpful to anyone.

[redstate_democrat]

19. Obviously you didn't read my OP

I'm not talking about those who choose a different candidate for legitimate reasons. I'm talking about the so-called feminists who are threatening to vote for McCain because Hillary didn't get the nomination. They aren't voting McCain because he has better ideas; they are voting for him out of pure spite because they perceive Obama as unworthy because he challenged Hillary and won. They wanted a woman president so bad, they are blinded by the anger in not getting it this time. This is not healthy, it is anti-feminist, and it is stupid. Yeah, go ahead and vote for the man who will end Roe v. Wade and make it harder for women to bring suit against sexual harassers. That'll teach em.

[Shoelace]

100. So long to Pro Choice AND birth control for unmarried women too

well I got it and I'm an older woman who will fight like hell for our Democratic nominee who will most likely be Obama even though I originally fought hard for HRC.

In terms of women's rights, here's what we stand to lose if McCain wins (quotes from a blog that spells it out:

While I can understand these ladies' frustration at seeing the first serious female presidential candidate lose to the first serious African-American candidate in the primary, I'd like to bring them and all other folks with similar feelings back to reality and explain to them why it would be a REALLY bad idea to support John McCain instead of Barack Obama. Ready?

88-year-old (yes that's EIGHTY-EIGHT) John Paul Stevens is all that stands in the way of a Supreme Court majority in favor of overturning Roe v. Wade. If the Republicans get to nominate Stevens' replacement (it's widely been rumored he's been holding out on the court hoping a Democrat will be elected in 2008) then we will have a Supreme Court majority in favor of overturning Roe v. Wade. It's really that simple.

Not only that, but we will presumably also have a majority in favor of overturning Griswold v. Connecticut, upon whose reasoning Roe v. Wade was based. Griswold gives unmarried women the right to take contraceptives.

Now, which do you think would be the bigger setback for the feminist movement? The overturning of these landmark Supreme Court cases, or the delaying by a few years of the first female president?

http://www.buckeyestateblog.com/back_to_reality#comment

The group mentioned in this article "Clinton Supporters Count Too" are funded by about half their money so far - by....you guessed it, REPUBLICANS!!!

Way to go Karl~

[genna]

167. What is this justifiable frustration?

While I can understand these ladies' frustration at seeing the first serious female presidential candidate lose to the first serious African-American candidate in the primary,

What made the first serious African American candidate (Jesse and Al came first) so objectionable and frustrating?

[Shoelace]

203. that's what I'm trying to figure out

I don't understand why there's so much frustration with these women when we do have the first AA pres. candidate. Remember, those weren't my words but quotes from a blog.
My concern is that these frustrated Clinton supporters are being used by Replicans who would just love to see us lose so they give them money to start up their "we won't vote for Obama" groups. To me, that is the ultimate insanity. Why would they not support Obama if he's our nominee? Beats the heck out of me!

[donheld]

80. Are these people refusing to vote for the black guy?

[genna]

170. Yes, I think they are refusing to vote for the black guy

I think it is impolitic to say, I cannot vote for him because he is black.

The thing to do is mount all these excuses to hide what the underlying reason is.


If the guy has a virtually identical platform to HRC and he does what he says he is going to do, then what is the impediment if his issue are your issues?

[genna]

165. DO YOU know or understand what the phrase white privilege means?

Do you even know feminists' history with race in this country or in this party?

As for this portion,

So take your thinly disguised anti-feminism

you stepped into the waters if the best you have to show for yourself is to flip someone off when they put forward an argument about what is going on with upper class white women supporters...

then McCain will get an undeserved gift AND

we, Democrats, will get a definitive understanding about what Hillary's supporters motivations were.


In the end, it is what it is.

[OzarkDem]

14. You know so little

yet say so much.

[redstate_democrat]

20. Tell me what I don't know since you seem to know so much

You are blinded by your rage against men so I don't expect a coherent response.

[OzarkDem]

25. For starters

You don't know anything about feminists and women's issues, and how women advocate for equal opportunity in all aspects of life. You also apparently don't know how to have an open and honest discussion about said issues.

Some women seek power and change on their own, others feel they are only capable of doing so if they align themselves with powerful men. Just sayin.

[redstate_democrat]

31. You still didn't tell me what it is I don't know.

What about "feminists and women's issues" that I don't know. You can make a blanket charge with absolutely no basis if you want, but please don't accuse ME of not being capable of having an open and honest discussion about "said issues".

[eridani]

44. Powerful men like Bill Clinton? n/t

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

66. no feminist would vote for McCain.

period.

[OzarkDem]

84. But they may stay home

and not vote at all.

[frog92969]

118. They should be comming out in droves to vote AGAINST McSame.

[bread_and_roses]

83. er...that "align themselves with powerful men?? that would be HRC (n/t)

[LaurenG]

110. Just tweek that by one word

Some women seek power and change on their own, others feel they are only capable of doing so if they align themselves with powerful women. Just sayin. That goes both ways.

[femrap]

27. Hold on a second.....

Are you on the payroll of the RNC or some repugnant think tank? If not, you must have some very issues with your mom or your genitalia.

You actually think that HRC supporters don't like BO because he is not a she??? That's rich.

:crazy: :rofl: :crazy: :rofl: :crazy: :rofl: :crazy: :rofl: :crazy: :rofl: :crazy: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[redstate_democrat]

34. I never said all Hillary's supporters, just the rabid so-called

shoot themselves in the foot by voting for McCain because Hillary didn't get the nomination so we'll teach him and his sexist self a lesson Hillary supporters. Many of her supporters fall in this category.

And, no, I don't have a problem with my mother (a strong woman, mind you), my vagina, nor anything else that makes me a woman. Unlike some, I don't think the sun rises and sets on my vagina and that my self worth stems from the fact I am a woman. And I will not cry because a woman, deservedly looses something she should lose.

[lumpy]

174. I think it's the genitalia problem.

Triple LOLROF Some men just don't get it...uh.. er.. uh, what women think, that is.

[Darth_Kitten]

128. Pat, pat, there, somewhere a man is figuratively patting you on the head...

deliriously happy yet?

Man, you are one tough gal.....fighting for the things women find REALLY important. :sarcasm:
....gee, I guess that better America is not for those uppity white gals, huh?

Honey, you really don't know what people's motives are if you think you always speak for them.

[hfojvt]

158. fighting for the same things Hillary and Hillary supporters claimed as goals

Motives are something else aren't they?

[genna]

177. Is honey in this post the equivalent of sweetie in Obama speak?

Look, I am not sure what you mean in terms of uppity white gals.

But I will say that feminists don't always speak for all women. There is a whole dialect of women's issues that feminists will never see because of white privilege.

There is oodles (is that even a real word?) of academic analysis on the difference. Maybe this is the first time you've heard it expressed as applied to a particular group, but hey there are no real surprises there.

[lastliberalintexas]

207. Yeah, I'm not, and I still say your post is fucking idiotic

The glass ceiling's being converted into shatter proof glass as we speak, and yet women are expected to ignore the increasing misogony. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

37. There was nothing anti-woman in the OP. n/t

[Cha]

40. You really shouldn't be embarrassed because

what you really are is in denial.

[murielm99]

51. You don't get to tell me who or what I am. n/t

[NanceGreggs]

9. Incredibly well-written, insightful piece ...

... just WOW!

:kick: & REC'D!!!

[TBF]

10. This is a great post.

I'm not sure whether the women who are throwing a fit are middle aged - maybe on the older side of middle. I'm early 40's and used to be a professional before I had the audacity to decide I'd like to stay home with my young children for awhile. There are women in the generation prior to mine (Hillary's age) who had to work twice as hard as men to get any kind of power, and understandably retain some bitterness from the experience. I know that many of them feel strongly about wanting to see women finally break through and attain top leadership posts both in the private and public sector. The unfortunate truth is that this sort of thing takes time, and women have the double whammy of dealing with childbirth (even if you take just a short amount of time off from a professional career it can be a very limiting move). So, I understand their frustration and desire to have a female president.

But life has a way of happening when you are busy making other plans, and the reality is that Hillary found a very formidable opponent in Barack Obama. She shouldn't be offered the nomination on a silver platter because she is a woman, any more than he should be offered it because he is an African American. The fact is that Obama is inspiring, inclusive, courageous, and brilliant at a critical time in our history. It would be a very big mistake to dismiss someone of his caliber just because he happens to be male. He has the potential to not only be a good leader, but a great one. Eventually I hope Hillary's supporters will be able to see this, and not take Hillary's loss so personally.

[redstate_democrat]

16. I understand their hopes because I too hope for a woman president one day.

I thought for sure it would be Hillary this time, until Obama came along and blew me and millions of others away.

I would have loved for Carol Mosley Braun to make it, she didn't. Geraldine Ferraro was at least on a major ticket in the 80s, she didn't make it (and for good reason, now that it has come out she is batshit crazy).

What women must realize is that Hillary is not the end of the rainbow. She is not the last qualified woman on earth capable of attaining high office. Barbara Boxer, in my opinion, blows her out of the water, but I digress.

The fact that women, with all that we have attained, would throw it away in a hissyfit because Hillary Clinton didn't get the nomination is buffoonery to me and immature. It leads ME to believe that this whole thing is simply about a fucking title.

Way to fight back against misogyny by handing the presidency to a man who make life harder on women over a man who will fight to make life better for women. Ass backwards if you ask me.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redstate_democrat]

48. You are blinded by rage. I'm a pig?

Must a show you a picture of my vagina before you will believe I am a woman ... one who has the temerity to actually THINK FOR HERSELF and not fall in line with the "woe is me...Hillary didn't win" crowd? Geraldine Ferraro didn't just "get angry", she went batshit crazy by falsely stating that Obama is only where he is because he is a black man. Coincidentally, she said the same thing about Jesse Jackson back in the 80s. Then, to top it off, she HURTS the Democratic party by going on her crusade against Obama on Faux News of all places. For that, she gets my middle finger. And who said women can't get angry? Hell, I'm angry right now. I'm angry at some of these women who can't see the forest for the trees. I'm angry at these women who KNOW Obama is for the upliftment of women, yet will vote for McCain to try to hurt Obama simply because he beat Hillary fair and square. It's dumb shit.

And thank you for ignoring me. As if I give a royal fuck.

[murielm99]

55. Well it is hard to tell who or what you are

when you post such anti-women diatribes and you hide your profile. I am always somewhat suspicious of those who hide their profiles. Only one person here has ever given a good reason for doing so.

[EFerrari]

57. Please show the "anti-woman" words. If you can. Thanks.

[TBF]

82. These are not anti-women rants, these are rational comments

assessing why this particular woman won't be president. It doesn't mean anyone is against women holding office, or women holding the presidency. Surprise, women can be rational too. :)

[EFerrari]

56. What a load of crap.

Ferraro went beyond the pale. That you can defend her is disgusting, as is your post.

[genna]

179. Connect the bitterness about working twice as hard to being mad at Obama

This is the gap I have a hard time understanding.


Ok. Say she wanted this badly.

Say she was willing to put her reputation and life's work on the line to achieve the nomination. Ok.


Tell me how these white women who are upset because they worked twice as hard in their lives and kept seeing the goal moved believing it that Obama is THE MAN who changing the goal posts.

What power did he have in changing the rules of the presidential race and where and when did did he get handouts which have not been readily available to Hillary Clinton?


If we are talking about fair and life story, where does that analysis kick it?

[Raineyb]

212. The Irony is

That it is Clinton's campaign that keeps moving the goalposts which is the the same thing they've accused men of doing to them for years.

Regards

[femrap]

12. And Shirley Chisholm said it best:

"Men are men."

[SeattleGirl]

15. These women don't give a fuck about the party. For them, it's

all about them, and their "girl" (as Hilary has referred to herself).

Are all Hilary supporters like that? Absolutely not. There are plenty who chose her because they honestly think she's the best candidate.

But the ones you are talking about are damned near scary. That they would throw the presidency, and even worse, the SCOTUS, to further Republican rule tells me they are NOT feminists. If they truly were, they would never even consider that as an option.

[Darth_Kitten]

194. I seriously don't think any real feminists would vote for McCain.....

they would probably stay home election day, I would wager. Why shouldn't they? Long before this election season, the democratic party wasn't any more inclusive of "feminists" than the republican party.

[grantcart]

17. At some point they became convinced that the logic of Clinton/Obama

providing 16 years of a Democratic Golden Age breaking all of the barriers and everybody getting everything was clear for everyone to see.

They still do not see that we follow Obama precisely because he wants to go in a different direction.

They seem him as selfish usurper who puts his personal interest ahead of the natural order of things.

The only solution is to go out and register the 20-30 million people who have been sitting on the sidelines waiting for a new direction.

Some of the Hillaryists will come some won't. They cannot be persuaded by anyone other than Hillary

Somehow we need to get their recipe for Kool Aid because theirs is a lot stronger than ours.

[GoesTo11]

18. If not now, when?

I understand and sympathize with HRC supporters' desire to have a woman president after 43 men. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the next Democratic nominee is a woman. We will certainly see some strong female candidates, and I think we'll see that they don't get attacked the way HRC does. Partly because she's the trailblazer, partly because she really did have her own problems and baggage. We might also see a female Republican nominee (not Rice). I don't think it will be that long.

[redstate_democrat]

26. I don't think it will be that long either.

Yes, of course, there have been only men who have served in the highest office of the land, but is that Obama's fault? He has had to overcome many obstacles as well. But beyond all of that, let's look at the person on an individual level, and not the identity that person has. If we were to reverse the roles and make Hillary a man and Obama a woman, who would they rather have the nomination?

Hillary is a trailblazer, but she is not perfect. She is not the Messiah. It is embarrassing to see the way these women put all of their hopes and dreams on her shoulders. She is not worthy of it. She has paved the way for the right woman to come along and fill the spot. Just as Geraldine Ferraro, Shirley Chisolm, and Carol Mosley Braun paved the way for her to get this far.

[sakura]

22. Insightful post.

You're right. It should be about the best person winning-- period. Not because someone is a man or a woman, or black or white. Having any one of these characteristics does not bestow upon a person some special grace or entitlement to the highest post in our nation. Like most people of my generation (X), I have had the good fortune to work for men and women who were true leaders, and the bad fortune to work with men and women who were abysmally poor at that job. Possessing an XX or XY complement had nothing to do their abilities.

[Writer]

23. I posted this earlier in another thread.

Every time we tell a woman to keep a stiff upper lip in the face of serious sexist behavior in the workplace and in politics, we eliminate yet another opportunity to fight it. We set up younger generations of women to suffer the same treatment, and instead of facing this stuff head on, we wrongly tell fellow women to turn the other cheek.

Women: Men aren't going to change when we try to act like them by trying to appear unflinchingly "tough." Looking the other way is NEITHER strength NOR female empowerment. All this will do is make sure that the behavior is ready for yet another woman who unfortunately comes by way of the misogynist. If we continue to do this, I guarantee, NOTHING WILL CHANGE.

[redstate_democrat]

28. I don't understand the logic of some women who believe they have

to act like men to be considered a serious person. That THINKING is anti-feminist to me. I understand gender stereotypes and the need to push back against those stereotypes, but to take on a stereotypical male role to make yourself appear more powerful legitimizes the traditional stereotype of what a woman should be. Trying to "out tough" a "tough man", not because of that is who you are, but because that is what you think will make you more credible, is silly. Women who love being "feminine" or who love and understand men, who decide to stay home with the kids, or who simply want a leveled playing field with men and no advantage over them, are not anti-feminist, they are simply women. The world needs both men and women and there should be no special hierarchy about it.

[Writer]

38. This depends on how one defines "acting like a man" vs. "acting like a woman."

I think this tough "stiff upper lip" approach to sexism is a very masculine answer to the problem; hence, very ineffective. Men won't stop discriminatory behavior when we don't fight back against companies who protect employees who discriminate (I personally witnessed this) or against sexist behavior in society. Whether one is feminine or masculine in personal style is immaterial, or if one chooses to stay at home, because regardless of your role in life a woman still must deal with this.

We don't speak up because we think that not doing so demonstrates strength to men. Hardly. All it does it maintain the status quo, and younger generations will too have to contend with socially tolerated sexist behavior in their lives. In fact, some younger women have adopted sexual power roles as a way to move up - not sleeping with men, of course, but using their looks as a tool in order to gain traction in the corporate and political worlds. This only adds to the problem of women being taken less seriously.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[redstate_democrat]

50. Women like Geraldine Ferraro are part of the problem

How dare I say anything bad about poor, downtrodden Hillary Clinton or the rabid can't see past the gender of teh candidate supporters she has who threaten holy war if she is not anointed with the nomination.

I don't need to read up on feminists issues. Perhaps you NEED to gain a little more tolerance.

[femrap]

58. I didn't start the insults...so don't

talk about tolerance to me. Your writing shows a true lack of understanding on the subject of Feminism. If you are going to be taken seriously at all, read up on the topic. Of course maybe your library burned all of those books.

buh bye.

[EFerrari]

61. The OP is a better sample of feminism than any of your posts to this thread.

[Daemonaquila]

138. From a feminist...

... yes indeed. I'm tired of the movement being hijacked by insecure ideologues who yell that anyone who disagrees with them is a gender traitor, a mysogynist, or ignorant of feminism.

Feminism is about equal chances and equal choices for all. BO has shown that he at least has the vision and the urge to try. HC has already proven that she operates under George Orwell's timeless premise, "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."

[lastliberalintexas]

208. The OP is just an idiotic rant

It wouldn't have made any more sense coming from a black poster who was chastising African Americans' refusal to vote for Clinton because of a racist campaign. In fact, I remember quite a few posts on this very site in which posters claimed they or their friends or the black community in general would not be voting for Clinton under any circumstances, yet they have not been told to move on and get over it.

Goddamn, I'm not even a Clinton supporter, and yet this primary has turned me into a fucking defender. I just wish that people would acknowledge and oppose the sexism as easily as they have the racism. But I guess that's too much to ask.

[jonestonesusa]

173. No substantive points, just insults and stomping off

The OP challenges Hillary supporters for dialogue - so far in my reading, there are only accusations, hardly an attempt at a substantive discussion about the issues raised.

I won't hold my breath for informed and honest dialogue to start, although I hope it does sometime.

Thanks for the OP!

[cliffordu]

24. There is one phrase in the above quotation that sums what I feel:

"We look at him........and are glad to be of our species."

I wish I could say the same for her but I cannot.

[eridani]

47. As grantcart said last week, that Nightline version of her last year was pretty cool

I just wish she'd run for something as HERSELF.

[highplainsdem]

29. Please look at the reaction I got just last week saying Dems should vote for the nominee:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5830196

Look at the Obama supporters saying they'd never vote for Hillary.

You have people on both sides who have gone completely overboard.

[Missouri Blue]

30. Wishful thinking is a powerful political force

It's the force that put Dubya in office, where Republicans forgave his stupidity and his lack of any success in his life for the hope that his faith and "born again" good character would make him a leader.

It's women's turn this time. They're reading into her qualities that she doesn't have, and they are overlooking glaring flaws just in hope that she'll make history.

Unfortunately, if she wins, she makes history the day she's inaugurated. It will be one day of joy followed by 1,459 days of disappointment, if not regret. Making her President will not be worth it.

[tmoore411]

155. That is a double edged sword...

I have never seen a greater amount of "overlooking flaws" and seeing "more than what he is" than the current youth and far left heap upon Sen. Obama during this primary, and during his run for the Senate. If he runs a "clean" campaign, where does all the shit that seems to pile up at his foes door come from. Just because he is hiding behind the outhouse, while others are throwing shit, doesn't mean he doesn't share the stain, and doesn't pay for the fact that he takes me for an idiot that I can't see the same qualities in both Sen. Obama and his supporters that brought us the current President. He is a politician, completely made up, who wants to be President, because it will be easier than being in the Senate and having to work for change. Now he gets to preach change, and then, IF he manages to get elected, can blame the lack of ANYTHING substantive being accomplished on congress or better yet, the American people, that is the essence of his litany, YOU can create change, I can only do what you enable me to do, this guy is a slacker in the mold of the current President, and I seriously have nightmares about where the two currently HI-JACKED parties are taking this country.

And FYI, you don't leave office with a 70%+ approval rating if you suck, and you don't run a campaign on revisionist history which destroys the most successful and popular President in modern history and then claim to run a CLEAN campaign. Sorry, what you that jumped on the destroy Bill Clinton bandwagon have done is tell the moderate Republicans and Independents who liked the Clinton years that democrats suck and all of it was luck, good luck with that strategy btw.

I am saddened and angered that this nation has been imprisoned by the fringe elements in BOTH parties to give us candidates that are both ethically challenged and unable to create anything but what they see as a meal ticket to a future in which they can BE SOMEBODY. Grow up, this guy is a nightmare wrapped in a shit storm, and wearing the dregs of Chicago politics as his mantle, and y'all are eating it up, hook, line and sinker.

If you want a pony, buy a farm.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

163. Bravo!

:kick:

[jonestonesusa]

176. I tried to get past your cute applause lines

to think about the core of your post, which seems to say that there is something to the attacks on Obama, and it's unfair that Bill Clinton was snowed under by fringes on the left, etc.

From my point of view - I don't know if I'd call myself fringe left, and I'd be careful in how to define that term. For instance, most of the time the mass media calls single payer health care a friend left position, even though it probably would have support by at least half of the electorate. Similarly when it comes to pulling out of Iraq - a position often described in the MSM as fringe, but there are probably close to 70% that think the war is a mistake and fairly large numbers that would call for immediate withdrawal.

So in my opinion if you want the system to change to accommodate more political views, you need to stop labeling people and labeling viewpoints. We need to have a debate about the ideas and choose the good ones to become our policies. And in fact, it is the American "fringe" left that has proposed many good ideas that we would probably all stand behind (Social Security, Medicare, reproductive rights, the Clean Air Act, heck, even public schools back in the day!).

As far as Clinton goes - you seem to be mixing up Bill and Hillary Clinton. They are two different people (I think!). Can we predict what would happen under a Hillary presidency based on Bill? I don't think so.

Plus - I admire Clinton's budget discipline, and I think he did a good job overall in energizing diplomacy as much as possible, but I also think he was too much of an enabler of free trade without reasonable regulations and limits, was overzealous in the drug war and incarceration, and did a lousy job on policy in Iraq and Afghanistan. He enforced the sanctions and the no-fly zone in Iraq long past the usefulness of those policies, continuing the saber rattling which led us to no good. He didn't recognize the Bin Laden threat sufficiently even after the WTC was bombed, embassies bombed, etc. And it was his personal errors that he made when he knew he was being pursued by the right that derailed his own presidency and the Democrats' chances in local elections.

I do think that Obama can reach moderates - he has in the U.S. Senate, the Illinois House, and in his race for the White House. I don't buy entirely that a politician like him is totally clean or totally dirty, but he does sponsor a lot of legislation that seeks out good government, that is documented.

If you have specific issues to discuss, put them in the mix, and quit all the cursing and accusations if we can so we can have a civil discussion as you say you want.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[EFerrari]

35. Well done.

The only thing I'm entitled to is the privacy of my own mind. Anything more than that is a negotiation.

Damn.

lol

[Ichingcarpenter]

39. The Force is out of Balance

The Yang force has been overwhelming during these times
of war and aggression. The Yin force is now being over
compensated by some that brings another unbalance to
conversation that exhibits itself in over compensation of the
Yin force.

Using the force of The Qi gung
One must use both energies in order
to find the power of the Qi


Thanks for the your post
interesting and thought provoking.

[Missouri Blue]

41. But-- you didn't need to insult people to make your point. It's very counterproductive.

"These women claim to want to be seen as an equal to men out of one side of their mouth, but out the other side, they want to be given an advantage for being a woman."

The real problem with statements like this is that there are many women who will vote for Hillary for which this is not true. You not only don't reach most of them, you actually antagonize them.

More than anything, it's hope and wishful thinking. Hillary was a hope for a very long time. She has been marketed and "sold" to women as their best hope, for what? Sixteen years? That's a long time to wait. It's not easy to give up on hope and take advice to wait longer. It's hope and wishful thinking that makes Hillary Clinton their hero. In that, it's hard to consider her and Bill's ethics and her incompetence in this campaign.

[redstate_democrat]

53. Let me clarify.

"These women claim to want to be seen as an equal to men out of one side of their mouth, but out the other side, they want to be given an advantage for being a woman."

This statement was in reference to women who say that they are only voting for Hillary because she is a woman. Now, of course there are women who are voting for her for legitimate reasons...they think her policies are superior or whatever. I am talking about the one track minded folks, nothing more. If I antagonize them, so be it.

[seaglass]

92. Who are these women who only voted for Hillary because

she is a woman - no other reason? Name some.

[Scout]

94. good question....

who are the ones who will vote for McCain? i don't know any...

everyone i know who is a dem will vote for our nominee no matter who it is.

[marions ghost]

108. I know several

who voted for Hillary first and foremost because she's a woman -- and it really surprised me.

These women are from different backgrounds & places in life:

Older professional woman, works in academic research, admires Hillary's focus on goals and career.
Older wife & homemaker, wants Hill to win because women get it right & clean up messes.
Middle aged woman running house, job, kids, ailing husband, lacks a good social support system.
Younger woman, typical Obama demographic, but had a marriage somewhat like Hillary's.
Two younger women, lesbian couple, extreme liberal left, but tolerate Hill's politics to vote woman.

AS you can see there's quite a bit of diversity in those just in my small world who chose Hillary because she's a woman. This needs further study. As I said, I've studied social psychology which explores things like why people vote the way they do...and I was surprised at so much support for Hillary just because of her gender. I'm still trying to understand it, as I'd never vote for gender as the first consideration.

Edit to clarify --that not one of these women would ever vote for McCain, but just to say that Hillary's gender was their #1 reason for choosing her over Obama.

[earth mom]

43. This is a BULLSHIT post if ever I saw one.

:puke:

Gotta justify your hatred of Hillary because she's a WHITE woman, right?

[Cha]

49. Your post is the one that's

typical hilary shit.

[earth mom]

54. Yeah, how so? nt

[redstate_democrat]

59. I don't hate Hillary Clinton. Way to project your hatred of Obama on to me.

Anyway. The fact she is a "WHITE" woman has nothing to do with it, but you cannot deny there is some "entitlement" issues that arise when talking about gender combined with race. There is a sense of entitlement surrounding the Hillary camp. Anyway, reread Alice Walker's words in my OP. That should give you a clue about it.

[earth mom]

79. It's bullshit and you know it. nt

[sfaprog]

132. Yeah, you go - that all-caps WHITE really won the argument

:eyes:

[Cha]

45. This is really good, redstatedemocrat!

It's really pathetic the way these women have been twisting their femaleness to promote the ultimate victimhood.

"Vote for me because I'm a female or you're a traitor to your sex"..Geeze!

How stupid do you have to be to buy into that?

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

62. "White Woman Entitlement" - what a load of crap.....

Since when have women - black, white, hispanic, etc. ever had any entitlement? Maybe white MALE entitlement. You are obviously NOT a female who has worked in a corporation run by white men....

just sickening....

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

69. still wearing shoulder pads? Even Grandpa is getting advice from former CEO of HP

Time to wake up to modern times.

And the only reason Hillary has been a candidate and stayed in so long is because of her
"marriage" to a former president.

[highplainsdem]

113. John Edwards disagrees with you.

Even though he endorsed Obama, he made his admiration for Hillary clear:

And what she has shown, what she has shown, is strength and character. And what drives her is something that every single one of us can and should appreciate. She cares deeply about the working people in this country. She cares about the families who are losing everything because somebody got sick. She cares about our men and women who are putting their lives on the line in Iraq and Afghanistan. This tenacity has shown her strength and her determination. She is a woman who, in my judgment, is made of steel. And she's a leader in this country, not because of her husband, but because of what she has done -- because of speaking out, because of standing up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/14/AR2008051403533.html

[redstate_democrat]

72. How is it that you know what I am "obviously" not?

Your assumptions about me are what is sickening.

[martymar64]

137. Not long ago, a white woman's words could spell death for a black man

For example: Emmett Till, The Scottsboro Boys, the Tulsa Race Riots. A white woman could claim rape and the next thing you know, a black man is hanging from a tree. How's that for entitlement?

[Daemonaquila]

142. Yes, white female entitlement

Sorry, women can have the entitlement attitude. I've met plenty. I've worked in corps run by white guys, and I've run my own. Women, especially white women who've managed to make good in a variety of ways, whether via talent, luck, hard work, or being the boss's daughter, can be the worst offenders.

[genna]

182. Yes white privilege

You've obviously never consulted with a woman in your corporation able the different treatment she receives in that corporate structure.

It is not limited to corporations either.

I think you should consult one of my favorite speeches from the 1800s. Sojourner Truth's Ain't I a Woman?
"That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman?"


Look the truth is privilege allows some women to be more equal than others. It is not always that the person with the privilege sets it in motion but the truth is, they reap the benefits.


Should we be hesitant in acknowledging or admitting that?

[Oak2004]

189. ??? Did you spend much time in the trenches of the women's movement?

I'm a white woman. And I saw a whole lot of it, and a whole lot of marginalization of women of color, and a whole lot of sillyness trying to "address" it with tokenism, and even some (much less) unscrupulous women of color trying to exploit the guilty tokenism for their own gain (one instance of which was almost certainly a cointelpro operative).

Oh -- and exactly the same crap, but substitute "class" for race. And age, ableism, you name it.

We don't stop being everything else we are, including having our non-gender privileges, just because we're women. And we're not immune from our biases. White middle and upper class women have a very different set of feminist priorities than black women, poor women, etc., yet oftentimes it's their priorities that are seen as the sum total of feminism, because they're in the best position to push their priorities.

This has been discussed in depth for many years in feminist literature. It's one of the reasons I came to the conclusion that identity politics as a vehicle for change is doomed -- you need to work with big human principles, not complex entangled individual identities. Either you haven't read the literature beyond a few popular books, or you're rejecting a whole lot of feminist theory outright.

[NanceGreggs]

64. Back for a little ...

... late-night :kick:

[BlooInBloo]

68. Well then, she's learned something valuable about white folks.

"That they can believe that millions of Americans –black, white, yellow, red and brown - choose Obama over Clinton only because he is a man, and black, feels tragic to me."

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

71. my choice was for an Anti War candidate 1st before all other considerations

and at first there were so many good candidates to choose from,
but I never considered Hillary because of her pro war vote, and
the fact that I knew she was smart enough to know what that vote meant.

We had soooo many good candidates, but she would have been my last
pick, and only if I couldn't pick from ANY of the others.

Today I wonder what fun it would be to have a president like Joe Biden
who cusses a little bit.

Or Bill Richardson who was unselfish and stuck his neck out at just the
right time, knowing full well that he would be attacked for it.

Kucinich - who is right on the issues but not able to get enough support.

Edwards, a populist who is for the underdog, and a super advocate.

I was having trouble making up my mind!

I ended up with Obama after the crowd thinned.

The more I learn, the more impressed with him I am.

[Elspeth]

70. White Woman Entitlement? Do you really want to lose us?

More threads like this and you might.

Thanks for dividing the party.

[redstate_democrat]

73. I'm dividing the party? Little ole me?

Get real.

[BlooInBloo]

77. Good OP, by the way.

[EFerrari]

81. What freaks me out is that some Hillary supporters aren't actually responsible for anything.

Whatever they do is determined by someone or something else. That must be hell.

[VotesForWomen]

107. when O loses in nov. you're sure going to blame them for everything, aren't you?

[highplainsdem]

117. Of course they will.

[ampad]

89. Go then all of you

Go then, if you are going to let a commentary on a message board send you packing then you were a lost cause in the first place.

[Raineyb]

213. Having trouble facing the truth much?

It exists. I'm not sure why it's divisive to acknowledge it. It would be quite refreshing for a change.

Regards

[woolldog]

74. Good post.

:kick:

[PretzelWarrior]

75. where's the youtube? I want to see these women LITERALLY jumping the shark

oh. not literally? okay.

[Swamp Rat]

76. Vote for McCain,

and reap the whirlwind.

[casus belli]

78. Great read, thanks. :) n/t

[davsand]

85. I agree with your OP in many ways.

I dunno WTF some of these women were out there fighting for, but when I am out there in the trenches it is because I want to be allowed to make up my own mind and make my OWN decisions. I sure as hell don't need to be dictated to by a man--or another woman, for that matter. The right to self direction is what I am looking and working for, and that includes freedom from ANYBODY telling me what I have to think and feel.

For me it has all been about making up my own mind and making sure my daughter doesn't have to fight against some idea that her genitals are her sole definition. I don't need jack shit from anybody except to be left alone to make up own mind and make my own way--and that includes approval or applause. All I ask is to be judged on my own merits.

I am profoundly disturbed by both the Obama supporters who are there because of his ethnicity and the Hil supporters whose vote is dictated by being sisters in estrogen. I am equally disgusted by the voters who can't support either candidate because of gender or race.

I feel at times like not a damn thing has changed since the days when we held mock trials for Henry Hyde or even when people were marching in Selma.



Laura



Laura

[olkaz]

87. K/R

[ampad]

91. Great post Redstate

Kick and Rec. Yes there is a sense of entitlement from some white women in regards to Hillary becoming the nominee. I noticed this when I first started posting here. Do you honestly think Obama could of gotten away with saying "I'm your man" Or "I'm your black man" The shit would of hit the fan. The fact that some of these "so called feminist" are threatening to vote for McCain because they did not get their way give you a sense of their entitlement. This is a race and just because Hillary is a woman, a white woman, doesn't mean she automatically gets the nomination. I think some of them feel that it was her turn and how dare Obama get in the race and take her turn. I pity this country if this is the way we are to pick our candidates. Some of theme will probably go into the booth and proudly vote for McCain but I don't know how they can tell people with a straight face that they are feminist if they do so. They way the treated Oprah and NARAL, astonishing especially Oprah. Ophrah has spent years catering to that particular audience even getting shit from the black community for not focusing more on black issues. The first time Oprah does something they don't approve of they turn on her. If that isn't a sense of entitlement then I don't know what is. You are right they are Hillaryists as they took this thing to a whole new level. It stop being about a woman in the white house a long time ago with some of them. Once again, great post.

[genna]

183. A whole new level

Question 1:

Where was it written that Hillary's turn was now? Who had the first turn? Who is after Hillary?

This is a race and just because Hillary is a woman, a white woman, doesn't mean she automatically gets the nomination. I think some of them feel that it was her turn and how dare Obama get in the race and take her turn.

Question 2:

If Oprah has been catering to these women as her base, then she HAD TO KNOW that if she disagreed with them she'd lose an audience. My question becomes is how long can you/we be relationships of unequal power and act like everything is fine?

They way the treated Oprah and NARAL, astonishing especially Oprah. Ophrah has spent years catering to that particular audience even getting shit from the black community for not focusing more on black issues. The first time Oprah does something they don't approve of they turn on her.

What is this solidarity take women's groups if they fight Obama's nomination and they refuse to support him? Where on his list of priorities will they be?

What did NARAL owe Hillary Clinton if she was no longer someone who was going o influence the policies they support on a presidential level? The twisted part of this whole thing is how much are these politicians in bed with these lobbying organizations. Are the politicians supporting the American citizens or one interest group?


How can they claim to be the president of all the people when their constituency snaps their finger and they come running? It is disturbing.

[NeedleCast]

93. K&R

Spot on.

[invictus]

96. K & R

[LizW]

97. Every post like this one sets more of us free

We get it. Seriously, we do.

[Binka]

161. Sets More Of Us Free? Odd & Disturbing Turn Of Phrase LizW

Free from what exactly?

[George_Bonanza]

98. Great post!

Although my theory is that Hillaryists are semi-racists that harbor condescending sympathies to minorities, and whose vitriol for Obama stems from the fact that the racial hierarchy has been overturned by the fact that a black person has defeated a white woman, I still agree with much of your statements.

Hillaryists are n egotistical feminists: their main concern is the advancement of "one of their own": highly-educated, well-off, and career-driven white women (i.e. Hillary Clinton).

[kwassa]

101. The thesis in the OP is entirely phony

There are so many threads in this forum that say basically "You're not a feminist unless you follow MY definition of feminism."

Hillaryist, indeed.

[EFerrari]

102. Nope. There's always been a segment of the movement

that had a hard time remembering that all women aren't white and don't enjoy or agree with white privilege. That's just the history of feminism.

[kwassa]

103. That part of it I don't disagree with.

after all, I am married to a black woman, which means I hear ALL about it. She is a high-level professional and strong Hillary supporter, by the way. One of the few black supporters, these days.

I object to vilifying people by creating labels as a means of demonizing them, which I think the label "Hillaryist" does, both in separating those women out from "true" feminists, whoever they are, and by attaching Hillary's name to someone who votes for McCain, another piece of slander, from my point of view.

[EFerrari]

104. You can see the problem. Feminism, abolition and the peace movement

were born as triplets. Clinton's relationship to that history seems tenuous at best given not only her voting history but also the campaign she's run. And then, unhelpfully, some of her more unhinged supporters are urging people to contribute to McCain. Until she decides to discourage that behavior, is it really slander?

The claim that Clinton somehow represents women is a political talking point not really born out by her actions and often waved around by her base who largely seem to know little or nothing about feminism at all. It's branding and it diminishes the women's movement.

Feminism is too diverse in itself for anyone to claim to be a "true" feminist. But there is philosophy and behavior that is materially not in the feminist tradition -- like telling women who they must vote for.

[kwassa]

148. I think various claims are getting conflated

Each side has it's irrational extreme, and many of them seem to participate on DU.

Just kidding. But, not too much.

These Hillary supporters going to McCain represent a tiny segment of the electorate. They do this out of deep anger, but they are not a significant force.

I don't think there is a claim that Clinton represents all women, but Clinton being treated in a sexist fashion DOES represent all women, regardless of her candidacy. Working women relate to the abuse she has received, as they have received it themselves.

There have been some really sexist treatment of Hillary, and it comes directly from a media that would never dream of doing the same thing racially. The consciousness is much higher in the media with race than it is with gender issues. This campaign really has revealed this point.

Dislike Hillary individually all you want. No woman should be required to receive the sexual insults, though, be it Hillary or ANY other women in politics, regardless of politics. I get angry at the treatment of Condi Rice on DU, as much as I disagree with her about everything politically. Criticize them in the correct areas; policy and leadership.

[genna]

185. I would not draw the straw man argument that women aren't seen or heard from as much as race

How racially diverse are these newsrooms?

These Hillary supporters going to McCain represent a tiny segment of the electorate. They do this out of deep anger, but they are not a significant force.

What do you consider tiny?

I see their posts every place I go.

If you use the exit polls, then I'd say they are a significant number.

The consciousness is much higher in the media with race than it is with gender issues. This campaign really has revealed this point.

Based on what objective measures?

The number of anchors in the seat?
The number of editors who are deciding to cover race in some objective fashion?
Using the number of people who have talked to black voters in polls or in subjective interviews to find out why AAs are voting for Obama by as much as 92%?

What way would you say the media's consciousness has been raised exactly?

[aaaaaa5a]

105. Great Post!

I agree with all of it!

[Darth_Kitten]

127. of course you do.

we know SO much about you. :eyes:

[VotesForWomen]

106. and some black men who claim to be for equal rights really only want equal rights between males. wh

what's your point?

[kwenu]

114. Who are these Black men you speak of? I know of none who will support McCain.

[xmas74]

162. I know of a few.

I live in a military town. I have an AA coworker, retired Air Force, McCain bumper sticker on the back of his F150. He respects his views on the military. I've noticed a few others but I don't know them all that well.

They are out there, whether you see them or not.

[kwenu]

199. There are always going to be few of anything but it's not the view of the overwhelming majority.

[Evergreen Emerald]

111. This is one of the worst posts I have ever seen on DU.

These middle-aged women that you so easily throw under the bus, are women who endured sexism in the work place, who broke glass ceiling after glass ceiling so that YOU could be where you are today. She fought for her right to be a stay-at-home-mom and be respected. She fought to make sure that domestic violence was not minimized or ignored. She fought to be able to vote and work and own property. She fought to be able to sit at the bar with the men, and to play sports in high school.

These "middle aged" women who call themselves "feminists" endured sexism. Fought sexism. And you DARE to climb over their backs to be where you are today (for you would not be without them) and DARE to betray these FEMINISTS by suggesting that they are bitter old women who feel entitled.

That is the most insenstive, uninformed, historically ignorant, biggest betrayal against your own sex post that I have EVER heard.

And then, after a life time of fighting for equal rights, they finally see a female able to reach for the Presidency, and she is attacked in a sexist manner, while women who excelled ONLY because of the path laid for them by these FEMINISTS, treat the feminists before them like dirt.

You should be on your knees BEGGING for forgiviness to those SO CALLED FEMINISTS.




Stunning.

[highplainsdem]

116. Thank you. Brilliant response to the OP.

[redstate_democrat]

140. nah, not really.

[DemExpat]

122. Stunning indeed.

:thumbsup:

DemEx

[Darth_Kitten]

123. Right on!!!!

n/t

[emilyg]

133. Bravo!!!

[sfaprog]

134. You DARE climb over these feminsts backs after all they did for you and vote for a MAN!

:eyes:

After you realize Hillary won't win, I hope you realize Obama has been a gentleman this whole time and is deserving of your vote.

[ProSense]

147. A gentleman with some excellent supporters,

like John Conyers:

A Statement by Patricia Ireland, President, National Organization for Women, March 19, 1998

The Violence Against Women Prevention Act of 1998: A Tremendous Step Forward In Helping Battered Women and Preventing Abuse

[Evergreen Emerald]

172. You totally missed the point.

All women want is a level playing field. I am not supporting Clinton because she is a woman any more than you are supporting Obama because he is black or a man.

But, I demand equal treatment. Clinton has been vilified in America, not for who she is, not for her behavior, but only because she is a woman. She has done nothing differently than Obama, but Clinton's behavior is dissected, blown out of proportion, and made up out of whole cloth.

Clinton is getting awful treatment. And the basis, in part is sexism. There is ample proof.

So, when you attempt to dehumanize FEMINISTS, belittle, minimize--that is too far.

You are betraying women when you write this idiotic, outrageous SEXIST posts that belittle women--feminists--as bitter middle-aged women who feel entitled.


It is akin to binding your own feet.

[Daemonaquila]

154. You just made her point

I am really discouraged by this post. "You should be on your knees BEGGING for forgiviness to those SO CALLED FEMINISTS"? For heavens' sakes.

I am on the younger end of those "middle aged feminists." Yet I am not so arrogant to think that either my generation, or my mother's which endured even greater indignities, or my grandmother's which didn't even have the vote, get a pass when they start claiming a right to something they have not earned. That includes the respect of others. Individually, a woman may have earned respect for something she did in the fight. Are her actions the next day, the next month, or the next year, consistent with her fine and honorable accomplishments? If not, sorry. Everyone can backslide into the worst sort of entitlement behavior, and sadly many do once they become too comfortable.

[Evergreen Emerald]

175. "claiming rights they have not earned."

That is simply disgusting. Clinton has been a powerful Senator and has worked her career for civil rights and progressive causes.

The "middle-aged" "feminists" you all love to dehumanize and miniminze, have not fought enough for you? Good God, your idea is a depressing example of an American Woman. Nothing would be sufficient to gain the "respect" she "deserves." That is the catch-22. Women can succeed...just not "that" woman.

And you base it on her campaign that as campaigns go historically has been run by her wonderfully. You make mountains out of molehills (because she is a woman), and you minimize, ignore, forgive (after all it has been a long campaign and he is tired) anything Obama does.

Backwards and in High heels.

I have never been more disappointed to see that women would be willing to even attack feminists in this campaign of "unity." It reminds me of those who "supported the troops" wearing the purple bandaids. What a betrayal.

[jonestonesusa]

178. What about the women who are attacking NARAL

for endorsing Obama? Are you equally disgusted with them? They're on the front lines of a battle that has been drawn for three decades.

[genna]

186. Kissing the ring and other horrifying thoughts.

And then, after a life time of fighting for equal rights, they finally see a female able to reach for the Presidency, and she is attacked in a sexist manner, while women who excelled ONLY because of the path laid for them by these FEMINISTS, treat the feminists before them like dirt.

You should be on your knees BEGGING for forgiviness to those SO CALLED FEMINISTS.

Let me get this straight the next several generations should NOT EVER question the motives nor look at the behavior of the feminists who came before them because they paved the way?

What part of an unexamined life would you require us to live?

That is such a bold claim that I have to register my protest. I have learned that just when I think I know so much, all I have to do is keep living to see the error of my reasoning.

I hope you kiss your parents' and their forbears' feet everyday considering what you are suggesting here. The best approach was created with the first. The succeeding generations could never hope on improving on the original model.

[Evergreen Emerald]

190. You are setting up a false argument and then attempting to knock it down

Where in the hell did I ever say we should "never question motives?" But to vilify and attack "middle aged women" To deny their "feminist" credentials, to suggest they are old bitter people who feel "entitled" without earning anything--is denying the paths our mothers forged for us, allowing us the opportunities we would not otherwise have.

Your argument is what is wrong with DU. You have so dehumanized Clinton and her supporters that it is ok with you and the op to attack women who fought FOR YOU.

I shake my head in amazment. We have entered an alternative universe where "progressive" women attack those who paved our way.

[earth mom]

196. Great post! While I'm for neither candidate, the misogyny & reverse racism posted on this thread

is about the most disgusting I've seen on DU in recent memory.

Why in the HELL is this thread still here?!!!!! :wtf:

[Raineyb]

214. Wrong, wrong, wrong!

You miss the point, as usual.

The women described in the OP decry sexism yet are perfectly willing to vote for a man who embodies everything that is the exact opposite of what they claim to stand for. Why? It looks as though it's in order to what spite Obama for winning. How exactly does this continue the goals to which feminists are supposed to be fighting for?

This is what the OP was decrying. Unfortunately, you seem to be more concerned over whether or not it's a woman's turn as though HRC was entitled to the nomination because she'd waited in line and then suddenly Obama came up and jumped the queue and the decisions of the voters had nothing to do with HRC's current position vis a vi the Democratic nomination.

This discussion sounds like a redux of what happened when black men got the right to vote. The suffragists were so outraged that black men got the vote that they turned their back on their black sisters.

This is not helpful and voting for McSame is actually turning the clock back.

The sad fact is that the women that the OP discusses are generally upper class so they won't really feel the brunt of their decision. That will fall mostly to poor women and women of color.

The problem with a lot of so-called feminists is that they ignore issues of race and class and think that sexism is the end all to be all if -isms that need to be fought. And when other women make decisions that are contrary to what this subset believes and vote their own interests they get angry. Unfortunately, the results are generally not pretty.

Regards

[Prophet 451]

112. The Hillaryists...

...seem to be the ones who've decided that if you're not for Hillary, you are automatically sexist.

That said, I think it's a more complex psychological relationship. I think many of these women have seen the effects of sexism, have seen themselves or their friends being overlooked or held down due to sexism and they've seen Hillary, perfectly able to be president and the assumption has been born that if she is being held back, it must be sexism that's to blame. I would imagine this is why so many of Hillary's supporters, both here and IRL, have so overused the sexism arguement. Not that there wasn't sexism observable in the commentry on Hillary's campaign but it got to the point (probably around the demonising of Keith Olbermann) when it became clear that a certain faction of HRC's supporters were using the charge of "sexism" as a blanket defence to everything. Oddly, while those same supporters often accuse the Obama campaign of playing the race card, I've seen the campaign play the card far less than the Hillaryists complain about. At several points, we have had quite literal pissing contests about whether women or black people have it tougher.

The Hillary campaign portrayed Hillary as the victim often. To some extent, that was accurate but after a while, it became obvious that the campaign was trying to identify itself with all the women who genuinely were victims and forgetting that all this victimhood came from a candidate with every advantage in the book and who became senator of New York more or less on sheer name power (in fairness, she also turned out to be very good at it). Perhaps therein lies the problem: The Clinton campaign has spent the whole campaign talking about who is the victim of sexists, elitists, insiders, whatever.

Then again, Hillary's self-transformation from smart, tough, educated and capable New York senator to beer-swilling, gun lovin' good ole girl was just painful to watch for anyone (including me) who used to respect her.

[Evergreen Emerald]

115. Why do you use such an insult in your title? It lessens your credibility

And your post ignores the fight that women have been enduring for generations. Your post minimizes and trivializes the path created by that fight for future generations.

Entitled? No. Women feel that they deserve a level playing field.

[Prophet 451]

119. I used it because the OP did

No, I'm not ignoring the fight that "women have been enduring for generations", I am saying that the Hillary campaign has been crying "wolf" not just when they saw a wolf but when they saw nothing more than Toto.

I didn't use the term "enitled", the OP did and I partly disagreed with her. A level playing field includes the possibility that when you lose, it's not sexism or victimhood or cultism or anything else, you just lost.

[sfaprog]

135. You're right - the playing field for this campaign wasn't level.

It was tilted heavily towards Hillary. If you're honest with yourself, surely you can at least admit that. She blew it, but she started at the top, not the bottom.

[union_maid]

120. And yet, I only see them on the interwebs

I know and work with a bunch of middle-aged women, as well as being one myself. Some preferred Hillary, some Obama, when it came down to the two of them. Some of the Clinton supporters are saddened that it looks like it's not going to be a woman this time, but they're over it. Some are hoping for VP for Clinton and others are just ready to move on and celebrate the day we have a Democrat in the White House again. Since they weren't born yesterday they are accustomed to not always getting their first choice in a candidate. They know what the differences between the parties are and any of the Democratic field this year would have gotten their vote in the general. Oh, and when it comes to identity politics, an African American candidate is not chopped liver either. Neither gender nor race should be the defining issue, but if we're going to make history - and we are - either one is something to celebrate.

[kikiek]

121. Who do you or anyone else think they are to decide what issues should

matter to another voter? Or how a Democrat or feminist will be defined. I'm tired of this bullshit crap of trying to intimidate and harass people into voting for Obama. Basically threatening them with labels of racist, sexist, or uneducated if they don't follow along. So someone doesn't support your guy. Get over it. It's a free country they can be in whatever party they want and call themselves whatever they want, feminist or democrat or both, without your or anyone else's permission. And you wonder why the Democrats are called elitist? How arrogant.

[genna]

187. If it quacks like a duck, moves like a duck, and smells like a duck, it is a duck

Assessing a whole segment's voting pattern can help the next candidate figure out how to earn their vote.

I assume the next woman or man who earns Hillary's vote can move the crowd in the same way that Hillary did. Learning how to relate by swigging a beer, appealing to woman solidarity, or running ad using Osama bin Laden might make the next winning ticket.

[MethuenProgressive]

124. Obvious and intentional flame bait: "the silk handkerchief, power hungry elitist feminists "

What site is this, again?

[comradebillyboy]

126. How come you cant accept your proper role as a

sex object and obedient servant to the man in your life who is who your lord and master?:evilgrin: if you don't have a man in your life to obediently serve, you should make Obama your lord and master and do his bidding in all things quietly and gratefully.:sarcasm:

[Darth_Kitten]

125. Speaking of entitlement......

why does it BOTHER you so when some women don't want to worship your God?

Little envious that they are more comfortable in their skins about their life decisions than YOU are?
That they (gasp!) feel they can make decisions that are automatically not the most man pleasing/popular ones out there? That they can take a load of crap and not give a fuck because they have seen it all?

Just a clue, dear, white, older women are people, too. Get used to it.

[redstate_democrat]

146. I seem to have touched a nerve with you.

It's okay, I understand. I truly do.

And Democratic nominee Barack Obama is not my God, he is my candidate. Please don't project your own cultish behavior onto me.

And I am very comfortable in my skin...so much so, I don't have to scream from the rooftops about how victimized I am every 3 seconds.

Oh and thanks for reminding me that white, older women are people, too.

:eyes:

[Generator]

129. And not only that Hillary already had her eight years IN the White House

I guess no one ever brings that up-oh wait that IS her experience-she married it (oh how feminist of her) and never had the GUTS to run for political office until hubby was done. Why didn't she run for something
30 years ago or fifteen-oh wait Bill came first. I guess I should pity her for her gutlessness.

This is why I think she's a pseudo-feminist. I also happen to think she's actually very conservative at heart-which to me isn't feminism at all. I want my gay sisters to sing-I want single women to do the same thing as married women. I like people that are individuals and break the mold. Feminists do that. Marrying your way to power is a cliche! She's the best we can do for a woman candidate? The one that was hobbled by her husband's womanizing? My other four hundred reasons for NOT voting for her are more important-but please don't marry your way to power and then claim to be downtrodden by it.

PS My husband(oh the irony) and I know NONE of you almost have any sense of humour anymore-but hey my time for Hillary ranting is coming to an end-she's toast on Tuesday. YUM!

[kikiek]

139. Talk about right wing bullshit. Right off of freerepublic just forgot your link.

And nice touch the PS. That really works in Obama's favor.

[ProSense]

130. Hillary's rallying cry to her "bloggers"

A Conversation of Heart

BY TAYLOR MARSH

It was just between Hillary Clinton and bloggers who have her back.

I taped it for all of you so you could hear it for yourself.

Peter Daou introduces the call, which included bloggers who support Clinton, especially on getting the votes counted in Michigan and Florida. But invitations had absolutely nothing to do with blog clout or traffic. It was about talking to and thanking people, because we're all in this together. Clinton's appreciation is evident in every word exchanged. It reminds me of seeing her at the women's generation event in D.C. last week. When she came over, saw me, took my hands, then said, "Thank you. Thank you." That was the tone and message of the call from Clinton.

PODCAST: http://www.taylormarsh.com/podcast/mp3/stream.2008-05-16.134204.mp3">Senator Clinton Chats with Pro Hillary Bloggers

It's doubtful that anything surprised the insiders of the Clinton campaign more than the relationship Hillary has experienced with her online supporters, but especially the bloggers who have made the case for Clinton as time has passed.

We've got your back, Hillary. We're in it all the way.

A Blogger Call With Hillary Clinton: It's the Map Not the Math

We had a great blogger call with a very hoarse Hillary Clinton today. It was just for bloggers so she could thank us for our support.

She is staying in the race. She is ahead in the popular vote by 50,000 votes, counting Florida and Michigan which must be counted. She intends to continue to lead in the popular vote when June 3 comes around and everyone has voted.

The number one message: It's the map not the math. In addition to the popular vote, the electoral map shows her with a cushion and Obama with a deficit. She has won 311 electoral votes to Obama's 217. While a few of her's like Texas and Oklahoma will be a challenge in November, many of his states will be: Alaska, Idaho, Utah, to name a few.

more

This is scary. These people are delusional.

[kikiek]

141. So what? Why wouldn't she talk to her bloggers? The delusional ones are the Obama is

messiah supporters who think he doesn't act or behave like a politician. You are the scary ones.

[ProSense]

151. Who said anything about her not talking to them? Get a grip!

She sounds like she has gone off the deep end, going on about how she would win, how she's leading in the popular vote (lie), and claiming that Obama has refused to debate her. Debate her? She lost!

[kikiek]

157. Only one off the deep end is you. It isn't over. She is right Obama should take the

opportunity to have a town hall meeting with her to discuss issues. If he were smart he would see this as an opportunity instead of blowing it off as not important. Only goes to prove he is scared and knows he can't debate. Should he be the nominee he is going to need a lot more practice. That has been painfully obvious.

[ProSense]

160. No, it's over. "Only goes to prove he is scared and knows he can't debate." She lost! n/t

[Hoof Hearted]

168. Then why did Obama just hire 400 new bloggers?

Or hadncha heard?

[OzarkDem]

136. Women who support Clinton fight for the Democratic Party

as opposed to male Reagan Democrats who run to the GOP every time they wave the "gay marriage" flag, Dem women have guts, courage and loyalty to the Democratic Party and our country.

There is no group of Democrats more loyal than Dem women voters - women who have been insulted, harrassed, and ignored for their party.

They are going to kick your ass at the Dem convention, though, when they elect Clinton.

[redstate_democrat]

144. Hillaryous!

[mhoran]

145. Can we please stop?

The in-fighting does none of us any good.

Regardless of our individual opinions, beliefs, frustrations, etc., we (the vast, vast majority of us, anyway) have been brothers and sisters for a long time and are ready to come together again and turn our energies towards our real enemies.

It is the responsibility of us, Obama supporters, to take the first steps in trying to bring us back together again.

[redstate_democrat]

149. You know I don't want to fight anymore

but these Hillaryists insist on carrying on with these shenanigans by spreading hate-filled messages across the net, taking out stupid ads in Newsweek, protesting the DNC, threatening to vote for McCain, thereby undermining every single Democrat out there, threatening to vote for a man who will appoint judges who will overturn Roe v Wade, threatening holy way if Hillary is not nominated, and spewing the most disgusting race based trash about a Democrat that not even the Repugs have managed to do.

And, they attack another woman, MICHELLE OBAMA while doing this. This tells me they aren't interested in women's issues, only Hillary's damn issues. They attack every woman who doesn't fall in line with their group think. It's disgusting.

[panAmerican]

150. Color/Gender math

Let's say that gender by itself or color by itself was a good enough reason to choose a candidate. White women have had a president of their color as long as this nation has existed. Black people, of either gender, have never had a president of their color. So should the "Black" column stay blank forever? With Obama, both Blacks and Whites of both genders will have had someone like them.

Up until now:
black white Total
men 0 43 43
women 0 0 0
Total 0 43

If Clinton Wins
black white Total
men 0 43 43
women 0 1 1
Total 0 44


If Obama wins:
black white Total
men 1 43 44
women 0 0 0
Total 1 43

[Pisces]

156. The staunch feminist will still vote Obama for women's rights, it is the racist that will go McCain

[Hoof Hearted]

166. Insufferable, arrogant, elitist additudes like this will lose this election for the Democratic party

and those who hold to it will hold the fault.

[Raineyb]

215. That attitude is exactly why I didn't vote for Senator Clinton

But I suspect that's not quite the point you were trying to make.

Regards

[Diane R]

159. An absolutely wonderful post. Bravo. (And this is coming from an original feminist).

[Evergreen Emerald]

171. digusting.

To suggest that this is a wonderful post is a betrayal to women.

[Darth_Kitten]

193. Exactly...........

Another faux feminist who cared so much. :eyes:

[Hutzpa]

181. IBTL

This is the objective from the conference call with Hillary Clinton this
morning, their plan is to drive home these divisive issues such as sexism
and bogus math.

If you notice they are now using a new formula which is MAP, and in
the process discard the pledged delegates and super delegates, this is becoming
boring Hillary and its time to call it quits.

[MediaBabe]

184. So she lost because she ran an inferior campaign.

Not because she was not qualified but because she ran an inferior campaign.

"Hillary Clinton has lost this election through her own deeds. She ran a miserable, inferior campaign to that of Obama's."

Sort of like how George Bush won over Al Gore. Not because he was more qualified but because he had more money and ran a better fukking campaign.

GLAD YOU MADE THAT CLEAR. Because I don't think Obama is qualified either. Obama and Bush. Not qualified but better cmpaigns. And America suffers for it.

[genna]

188. Conflating Bush and Obama: Analogies gone awry

If you feel like this genuinely, I don't think you can vote for Obama.


The fact that you can't see the difference between how Gore had his voters turned away from polls or their votes discarded AND Hillary Clinton winning less pledged delegates by the campaign she ran requires me to say, don't vote for him if you don't believe in him.

If you think there is a candidate out there whose name will be on the GE ballot who better represents your values, then make sure you vote for your values.

If you feel like this, where are you going to put all your hurt and disappointment when Hillary ends her campaign?

[MediaBabe]

210. Hey, take it up with the OP

That is who made the claim: "Hillary Clinton has lost this election through her own deeds. She ran a miserable, inferior campaign to that of Obama's."

Why are you blaming those words on me?

[Binka]

197. Why Are You Here?

Seriously. Oh and we are in the midst of a fundraiser. Have a blessed day. :hi:

[MediaBabe]

211. The OP posted that Obama is not winning on qualifications

but on superior campaigning ability:

"Hillary Clinton has lost this election through her own deeds. She ran a miserable, inferior campaign to that of Obama's."

Why is the OP here is what you should be asking.

[Binka]

216. No You Are A Shit Stirring Agitator

Why are you here? The OP had plenty of points in his post you just that one. Why are you here?

[susankh4]

191. This will get Obama elected.

Bashing Hillary supporters. Calling us victims.

Yep, keep that up! Good idea....

[redstate_democrat]

201. He'll be elected regardless of what a few bitter and disgruntled elites who claim to be feminists do

The entitlement issues in that crowd really need a reality check and I'm glad Obama will be the vehicle to deliver it to them.

[Why Syzygy]

192. Hillary will always be the FIRST woman who made it this far. Nothing can change that. However.

She is going to be known for igniting racism within the party and for dirty tricks et al as well.
Too bad she couldn't be an honorable notation to history instead.

[joeybee12]

198. We agree..I'm embarrassed...BY YOU!

God forbid you should try and see what these women are saying instead of seeing life through your own narrow prism.

[redstate_democrat]

200. I don't give a fuck about what some disgruntled racist Hillaryist says or thinks.

They can kick rocks for all I care.

[eek MD]

206. Why can't we all agree???????????????

Sexism is bad! Racism is bad! Both are equally awful! Some people oppose Hillary because they're misogynistic. Some people oppose Obama because they're racist. These people are a minority of democrats in the general population. These people are a VERY small minority in DU.

Is that so hard to agree upon? I'm sick of "My "ism" is worse than your "ism"" ALL OF THE TIME on here.... GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR