OK.,,,I get a lot of criticism for doing nothing but bashing

[cboy4]

applicable Obama supporters about their unfortunate behavior -- when all I'm trying to do is provide a balance (considering how heavily outnumbered Hillary Clinton supporters are here.)

There are enough Obama supporters to defend him, without having to jump in and say anything myself.

But enough of that.

Here's another question that maybe everyone can discuss without pulling out the knives and guns.

Let's say Hillary loses Indiana, and gets relatively clobbered in North Carolina and does decide to end her bid this week as some here are predicting.

Will Obama supporters:

** Admit that her staying in the race helped establish a record number of Democratic registrations? (Obviously Obama supporters were instrumental as well, even it was because they were angry with her and want to vote for Barack.)

** Admit that there will still be more than enough time to campaign against McCain? (It's my opinion that if Obama can't beat McCain with even just a month of heavy ads and campaigning, the people of America are happy with keeping the GOP in charge.)

** Admit that it was awesome to allow so many voters in "late states" to participate in the primary process?

** Admit that when you really think about it, this is democracy at its finest?

** And most importantly, admit that you've been overreacting about the damage Hillary has done to the party by staying in this razor close race and fight?

Or will your answer be you hate Hillary.

And before you answer, always remember that if you expect Obama to win the GE, he will need the support of millions of Hillary Clinton supporters, including Hillary DUers.

I'm really curious about this.

Let's see how many people surprise me.

Your time starts now.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Divine Discontent]

2. 'this is democracy at its finest?'

Well....


At least Hillary didn't bite one of Barack's giant ears off around Easter. For me, as one who believes we need a guy with both ears, to get elected, I'm grateful for that.

:hide:




Seriously, I agree with most of your asterisked thoughts. I'm very much hoping it ends Wednesday. Obama will wipe the floor with McSame, and Hillary's most energetic and truly Democratic supporters will join up, like I did when Edwards left the race.

[cboy4]

6. You don't have to hide from me dude....I like many Obama

supporters.

DU is a make believe world.

Even though I too voted for Edwards in my primary, I plan on supporting either Obama or Hillary in the GE.

I'm not so confident Obama would wipe the floor with McCain, but if he's our guy, I hope you're right. :thumbsup:

Just don't expect me to lay off the problematic Obama supporters here until they stop or we have a nominee .. whichever comes first.

You know how I can get. :)

[Divine Discontent]

146. That I do! They don't wanna mess with you.

And I don't blame you about the problematic posse of his that are in lala land. They're the same lot who were obnoxious over Edwards. I have several of them purged from my screen, but others that haven't outright called John a snake-oil salesman and a horrible husband for pushing his wife into the primaries, I still read.

later!
:hug:

makes me think of this thing I redid the text on... it's so true. they just did NOT like John Edwards in this race, he messed up their plans.

[flor de jasmim]

3. As an intellectually honest person, I answer your call:

Will Obama supporters:

** Admit that her staying in the race helped establish a record number of Democratic registrations? (Obviously Obama supporters were instrumental as well, even it was because they were angry with her and want to vote for Barack.)

This is unprovable. Since Obama is a community organizer and has shown since the beginning a desire to run a 50-state race, I imagine he would have run in all 50 states in any case. But, sure, he might not have spent so much time (and money) in some states during the primary phase of the process.



** Admit that there will still be more than enough time to campaign against McCain? (It's my opinion that if Obama can't beat McCain with even just a month of heavy ads and campaigning, the people of America are happy with keeping the GOP in charge.)

Again, unprovable. One would think so, but when you consider how flimsy a candidate W seemed back in 2004, we just have no guarantees.



** Admit that it was awesome to allow so many voters in "late states" to participate in the primary process?

They ALWAYS participate! At least those who vote do! The voting does not stop. But I grant you that the enthusiasm is much greater when the final outcome is either not known, or not recognized at this late stage.


** Admit that when you really think about it, this is democracy at its finest?

Define "finest". Obama talks about the primary being the time when you get to go out and "kick the tires" of the candidates. This primary has seen not only tire-kicking but windshield smashing, tire-punctures, gasket-blowers, etc. Try that down at the local used car shop (or better yet, the new car shop!) and see how far it gets you.

** And most importantly, admit that you've been overreacting about the damage Hillary has done to the party by staying in this razor close race and fight?

Again, this is so far unprovable. How do we measure damage? When she, Lieberman and McCain seem to form a cohesive group, I feel she leaves the vast majority of Democrats out in the cold. I am appalled by her comment about obliterating Iran (and insistence that she means it), offended by her statement that economists (and presumably scientists who disagree with her) are "elitists" and that she knows best.

Or will your answer be you hate Hillary.

NO, I don't hate Hillary, but I hate the campaign she has run, her abandonment of fair play to engage in scorched earth tactics and an unwillingness to play by the rules she herself agreed to earlier on in the process. I feel she has diminished herself and the Clintons have diminished their legacy in this process.


Now, are you willing to be equally honest and say whether there are any tactics she has used in the campaign which have made you, as a Democrat, wince?

[cboy4]

4. No, I'm not discussing tactics or mistakes or blunders

or things that made me wince Sandi, because then I'll have to start in on Obama, and that's not what this thread is about.

The point of this thread is to gauge whether we can all agree this primary has been good for democracy .. albeit it very contentious, and if it were to end later this week after what happens today in Indiana and North Carolina, the party has not really been harmed at all.

But I appreciate your response.

[flor de jasmim]

10. regarding the wincing... fair enough! sorry about that

[cboy4]

13. No worries !

:)

[panAmerican]

5. Sometimes I make a concerted effort to forgive her, then she blows it again!

Sorry, buddy, but I'm not willing to concede anything of value to Hillary quite yet. What she has done has so inflamed me, because as a woman in corporate America, I couldn't wine, connive, outright lie and backstab close associates with such ease and expect to have a job, much less a career path.

We need some time to heal from Hillary.

[cboy4]

9. I believe both sides need time to heal

But thanks for weighing in.

[DMorgan]

104. Excellent summary of the issues, the "problems" with Hillary eom

[chknltl]

7. I can go with all but the over-reacting...

I could go point by point if you like but I have stated that I can go along with all but one point and this will have to do for now.... I need to air my thoughts regarding that one point and one other so go ahead and put this down as Hate Hillary ahead of time.

To be honest I do see her as acting quite neo-con(ish) in her campaign. Had Senator Obama acted this way to the same degree and yet won the nomination, I would confess to holding my nose while voting for him come November. (I would have done JUST that for Senator Clinton had she somehow won through thisas well) This imo is not the case and I am filled with HOPE as he gets through this and appears to be moving closer to the nomination. I DO agree that this is a victory for the Democratic party but I also ultimately see it as a major victory for American democracy over world corporatism.

I said I could not go with the last item on your list. I believe that the Democratic Party has been damaged but I see no reason why we as a party won't heal between now and November. Senator Clinton has damaged herself politically in this process as well and who knows how she will come out on the other side. As an example of this damage: I once believed that she was a champion of We The People...now I no longer see her this way, not by a loooong shot and it will be hard if not impossible for her to regain my earlier views and trust for her.

Worse, Senator Clinton has coattails! Where once I would have set aside the time to listen to the brilliant mind that is Madeline Albright, now I could care less for her opinion. Did Madeline Albright do ANYTHING other than support Senator Clinton to deserve this? Not just no but HELL NO! She never said anything to loose my respect! What caused this was her support for someone who to me betrayed my trust through her actions on this campaign! This is a deep wounding for me...and I am FAR from being alone in this matter nor is Ms Albright alone riding these coattails. THAT is damage severe!

Fortunately those coattails do not flow through the blogosphere for me. Yes there are a couple here who will likely find it hard to regain my respect, they did that to themselves, it had NOTHING to do with who they supported but how they attacked my fellow DUers! OTOH there many of you out there on the other side of the fence that I look forward to having on our side when we turn our attention to Sen. mCcain! Some of you fought well and did little to no damage on yourselves imo.

I would like to think you to be one of these, I will add BigBearJohn(sp?) and OperationMindCrime(sp?) to that list. There are more and I hope to see you all here but I can understand if that is not to be. This fight got pretty damned ugly and there will be a few wounds which won't get healed...I said I had two of them myself, I am sure you have your list as well.

I suppose you will understandably place me in the 'Hate Hillary' column...you would be right in doing so but I remind you that from my point of view Senator Clinton has earned this just as much as Joe Lieberman has earned this. I believe with all my heart that there is no better form of government than DEMOCRACY. I believe that given the chance, capitalism can destroy democracy. We are seeing corporatism do just this! I will go to my grave believing that Senator Clinton became corrupted by those corporatists. I will go to my grave believing that she betrayed We The People and ultimately our very democracy!

I believe that democracy dodged an unforeseen bullet when We The People selected against her. I believe we will go on to dodge another bullet in mCsame come November. I know EXACTLY how that must sound to you...I am sorry for the harsh words but I hope you can see that we ultimately stand on the same side when it comes to defending our country...we fight on FOR democracy not against it. Our enemy is the corporatism which seeks to destroy our democracy through corrupting our representatives. A POTUS is but one of these representatives and I know you and I can agree that we must elect the least corrupted. I can only hope that you can see why I feel that this particular 'least corrupted' person yet standing is Sen. Obama.

[cboy4]

11. A couple of things... first of all , I don't consider Hillary the villain

you've made her out to be.

But hey, I respect your opinion because you're not a disruptor and read everything you took the time to write.

Since you had your say about Hillary, I will offer that I feel Obama is untrustworthy and tends to pander.

His handling of the Donnie McClurkin incident was nothing short of a disgrace.

Having said that....I've been consistent from the very beginning:

I can't imagine I won't be voting for the the Democratic nominee -- whether it's Obama or Hillary.

[chknltl]

140. Thanks for an honest response

:toast: to you cboy4
btw, I was the 4th rec to this thread because you asked something important and with no rancor. It was to be expected that you would get a few flames but it could be anticipated that you would get some honest airing out and introspection as well. I have yet to read any of the other responses but now I look forward to doing just that. You bring a unique perspective to your posts in the DU...I encourage you to continue doing this.

[Apollo11]

8. Isn't it a little early in the day for Hillary supporters to be conceding Indiana?

I thought we were supposed to be counting on a "Hillary Miracle" in North Carolina today? ;-)

[cboy4]

12. Oh stop.

lol

[hell-bent]

60. Well, why don't we wait and see.

It appears that some of the Obama supporters are already talking about "stealing it".

[cali]

14. And this post is just bashing to and defending your bashing.

And sorry, I think that after March, this process has been damaging. I don't think that's Hillary's fault just the way things happened. Glad to see you ADMIT that you just bash.

[cboy4]

21. Terrible post.

:thumbsdown:

[JuniperLea]

137. Sort of like...

Lovely turtleneck you're wearing... it hides your double chin.

If I were a candidate, I'd cringe at knowing this is going on in my name. This in no way wins support for a person's candidate.


Growing up might, though.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5841161

[tekisui]

15. Friday, of last week, I had a realization.

I had a "Could finally see the forest, where I had only seen trees" moment.

I will put a post up about it if/when Hillary does decide to exit the race.

She strengthened Obama, she dulled the RW attacks, we've heard it all now.

THe voter registration and attention to 50 states has been a thing of beauty.

She is an amazingly strong candidate, as are her supporters. Her numbers in OH, TX and PA still impress me. I want Hillary and her supporters on my side.

I hope efforts will be made, in respectful ways to unite the party. Thank you for all your posts.

[ShortnFiery]

17. "I want Hillary and her supporters on my side."

There's the rub. There's only one side to HRC, "The Clintonian Side." Everything else will be scorched earth, i.e., under the bus with ye!

When has "The Clintons" EVER been team players by delivering on the down ticker? :grr:

[tekisui]

18. Hillary said she would "work her heart out" for Obama if he is the Nominee.

I want to trust her on this one. It will be largely on the runner-up to bring their supporters to the winner, and the winner must be gracious and humble.

[ShortnFiery]

53. I don't trust The Clintons ... not one iota. You should do the same lest you be disappointed. eom

[cboy4]

20. Terrible post.

:thumbsdown:

[ShortnFiery]

52. Awe, and here I live my life just to please you cboy4?

:eyes:

[cboy4]

55. Anger anger

lol

[ShortnFiery]

63. I'm not angered. Basically, I'm disappointed at the mere thought people would buy into such BUNK.

I want you to know that, just perhaps, the American People can see though your disinformation and will act accordingly.

Please? The What? Me? Worry? act is, IMO, super lame. :shrug:

[cboy4]

68. We get it ShortnFiery.....you're a know it all.

"Super lame"?

Indeed.

[ShortnFiery]

83. No, I'm just shining a light on "the truth" ... what you're selling is less than that. eom

[Tyler Durden]

97. Most people I know who claimed to be "...shining a light on 'the truth'..."

Were one pill short on their meds.

You and the rest of the fanatics had better get behind the fact that there are MILLIONS of Senator Clinton Supporters out there that you are going to have to "woo" to your candidate if he gets nominated, and that these people are just as sincere in their support as the TRUE supporters of Senator Obama who have not resorted to condemnations and agreeing with the MSM that they themselves were condemning not 6 months ago.

[cboy4]

19. Wow....I'm speechless.....what a classy post

tekisui. :)

[ShortnFiery]

86. When has "The Clintons" EVER been team players by delivering on the down ticket?

You didn't answer my question.

The Clintons in the WH lost us The Congress. They will repeat these past failures because of THEIR NEGATIVES. However, because the economy is not booming, there will be *Hell to pay* ... it's anybody's guess how this mess will work out. :(

[cboy4]

90. It's kinda oxymoronic that you're attaching your negative

post to one in which I used the word "classy."

Know what I mean?

I asked half a dozen question in my OP, and you've failed to address any of them.

Therefore, your question is irrelevant in this particular thread since it doesn't pertain to the OP.

[ShortnFiery]

95. Great, I addressed a question to you and you throw up more bunk.

Bravo. That's exactly how Queen Hilly will play the M$M. :eyes:

[Tyler Durden]

98. Keep it up. Let that bridge smolder.

You know something? There ARE thousands just like you out in the real world, and it's a damn shame because it will just make it harder if Obama wins the coin flip.

You and people like you make it hard to eventually support Obama, largely because we don't want to be on the same side as YOU.

[ShortnFiery]

128. "you people" is all the TELL I need to know.

Scat Cat! ;) :hi:

[Tyler Durden]

94. I would REC this post if I could....

And post all over the board for people to come and to the same.

:toast:

[Warren Stupidity]

16. I'll admit that Clinton's behavior since super tuesday

has crystalized my aversion to her candidacy. So in a sense, but not one of the one's you have listed, her nasty kitchen sink strategy campaign of personal destruction, now coupled with a more traditional Clintonian-triangulation move to the right have confirmed all of the negative impressions I had of her, including that rather than being Hillary Clinton, an individual citizen running for the office of president, she is a package deal and mostly indistinguishable from her husband Bill, that her campaign represents their effort for a third term in office, and that I never liked him from the very beginning of his rise to power.

[cboy4]

22. I didn't ask for an analysis of her behavior.

The point of this thread is to gauge whether we can all agree this primary has been good for democracy .. albeit it very contentious, and if it were to end later this week after what happens today in Indiana and North Carolina, the party has not really been harmed at all.

[Warren Stupidity]

23. I don't actually care what you asked for.

The primary campaign since super tuesday has been bad for our prospects in november.

[merh]

24. No, I don't agree

There would still be the stump speeches made, instead of addressing the MSM nonsense and ducking the kitchen sinks thrown, Obama would be campaigning against McCain, going after McCain for his failed policies, like the gas tax crap. There would still be voter registration drives only it would be a united effort, for the good of the nation and the party, not with the negatives as in "against the other candidate".

There is no justification for the negatives any more than there is the justification for your Obama bashing when you close your eyes to the harm the negatives have done, when you close your eyes to the destructive nature of the Clinton campaign. Championing the underdog is not always the noble gesture one might think, the underdog may well be the underdog because they deserve to be defeated, for the good of all, they deserve to be defeated.

[RazBerryBeret]

25. some I will admit,

I think you're wrong on a couple.
#2 for example...isn't just about one candidate beating McCain in a month....it's about unifying the party after this, that will be a big responsibility for the loser.
Howard Dean has said that when he dropped out it took him THREE MONTHS of hard work to get his supporters to support Kerry. think about that...

[cboy4]

29. Interesting analysis......maybe it did take three months, and

maybe it will take three months, no matter who's the nominee.

But I'm comfortable with the primary playing out to this point because of its razor close nature.

That's just me.

[Marrah_G]

26. As shown by the recent poll

Your work on Democratic issues doesn't matter.

Your work for local Democrats doesn't matter.

Your protesting and letter writing doesn't matter.

Your support of the party doesn't matter.

The fact that you will support who ever gets the nomination doesn't matter.

The only thing that matters is that you don't support their choice in the primaries.

That makes you the enemy.

That makes you hated here.

That makes you no longer welcome here.

It's truly sad.

[cboy4]

30. Yea I know. Sad indeed.

:(

[npincus]

27. I'll admit that a record number of HRC supporters have said they'll vote McCain

instead of Obama.

[chknltl]

144. I doubt that even 2% of the DUers who say that would actually carry out the threat!

This is the DEMOCRATIC Underground...most here have come here to get or gain enlightenment on why republican=bad and what exactly=good. Should there be bad Democrats, the word gets out here too.

I have not been here too long but frankly I have yet to see a thread painting ANY recent republican in positives. I hardly believe that honest DUers would hate a Democrat sooooo much that they would vote for a repuke, (the utter worst of the republican party) in order to beat a Dem that they took issue with.

Why do DUers say that they would turn to mCsame should their candidate not get the nomination?
Some call it politics, I call it "selling wolf tickets"-an old expression from my jr. high school days which roughly translates to all bluster with nothing to really back it up!. Anotherwords THEY FIB in order to alarm those who take the threat seriously.

In the GE, I would be surprised if even 5% of the entire electorate chose mCsame BECAUSE their preferred Democratic nominee didn't get the nom! (There be UTTER LUNACY on that path!) Yes, I know, CNN exit polls reveal something considerably contrary to what I am saying but again I suspect that the majority here are 'selling' those 'wolf tickets' too! Democratic voters are very motivated for their candidate but they are even MORE HIGHLY motivated against 4 more years of the same...I believe we can trust in these motivations come the GE.

OTOH there WILL be a great many Republican voters voting for the Democratic nominee because they wound up with Senator mCcain. They can list as their reasons: An honest long standing HATE for mCain; an honest feeling that their party has left them combined with the obvious that the economy is in the toilet due to their party; they have felt the hard pinch as a result of their party's policies.

I think that last will be an important one. Republican supporters lost their jobs or loved ones in numbers no different than we Dems, they pay the same price for gas that we do and they KNOW who is in charge of these ailments. They may not trust our Party but they want change every bit as much as we do and mCaine promises NOT to deliver that change!

My point is, we have little to fear from those Dems who say that they will vote for mCcain come November...their numbers will be even smaller than insignificant and we can take comfort in knowing that we will be getting a highly significant number of Republicans voting for the Democratic nominee!
(Especially if it is Obama and should anyone ask, I will add why I stand behind that assertion!)

[DemsUnited]

28. I'll admit to most of your points and more IF Hillary makes good her promise to "campaign her heart

out" for Obama. As Howard Dean said, winning in November depends heavily on how the loser loses.

I much admired Sen. Clinton when the campaigning began a year & half ago, and would be thrilled if she gave me a reason to admire her again.

[cboy4]

31. Yea.....and I can't imagine she won't.

That's a good point that I failed to mention in my OP (about Hillary saying she'd campaign her heart out.)

Good post.

[jefferson_dem]

32. When Hillary does drop out, I will reach out to her supporters.

They are loyal Democrats like I am. It will be time to unite for the good of the country.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

38. Yes, we ARE loyal Democrats, but you really shouldn't

waste your time reaching out to us. You've been one of the most reliably arrogant, and devisive, and people will not forget.

[jefferson_dem]

42. Sorry to hear that but certainly your prerogative.

n/t

[KansasVoter]

33. You don't honestly believe that crap???

[berni_mccoy]

34. I Won't Think you are an Obama-basher if you don't think I'm a Hillary-basher

How will you answer...?

[cboy4]

35. Well, I don't -- with the exception of the McClukin incident ..

bash Obama, so you're presenting me with a false premise.

You need to re-read the OP.

[berni_mccoy]

39. You yourself said you have been labeled an Obama-basher. I know that I have

been so labeled a Hillary-basher(hater) when I'm not.

But I did read your post, and to answer, I don't think it is required to admit the stuff you are asking for. I have always said, let all the primaries be held, let's hear what they have to say. I do think the primary has been good for both candidates. But I do not agree that the primary is the reason for the record number of new voter registrations. That is something Dean has been working on and Obama have been instrumental in obtaining.

[cboy4]

43. No berni, I did not say that I've been labeled as an

Obama-basher.

I said I've been accused of bashing "applicable Obama SUPPORTERS." -- Not Obama himself.

Good....we agree about the primary being good for both candidates.

And we absolutely disagree that the new voter registrations are the result of only Dean and Obama.

It's been a group effort, which includes Hillary and her supporters.

The longer this primary has lasted, the more registrations come in as a new group of primary state voters get their chance to participate.

[redsoxrudy]

36. My problem has never been that she stayed in the race.

If her campaign had not been hell bent on scorched earth tactics then her staying in would actually been a good thing. Unfortunately when she ran a fairly positive campaign up until about the wisconsin primary she was getting her ass handed to her.

[scheming daemons]

37. I'll admit that she handed John McCain the playbook for the GE.... thanks Hillary!

:eyes:

[Orsino]

40. Most of that sounds reasonable.

I've not demanded that Clinton drop out precisely because I think there's still time to deal McCain as humiliating a defeat as we could want, and the damage our candidates do to each other in a protracted fight may not be lasting--up to a point. It is great that the the late states are getting play, too.

I'm not sure how much credit should be given, or to whom, for the huge Democratic registration numbers, or whether that will translate to anything meaningful in November.

But "democracy at its finest"? A campaign run by MSM sensationalism, in which money speaks louder than any of the issues that have been so carefully hidden from us, with an outcome dictated in part by those goddamned machines? Uh-uh. These are democracy's last throes, if you will.

"Razor close" is overly generous to Clinton's current position, too.

[cboy4]

44. Democracy at its finest can exist without evaluating the

behavior of both campaigns, Orsino.

The fact that this primary has energized so many people to participate is the democracy at its finest to which I'm referring.

[graycem]

41. I can admit all of that for the most part..

because it's true, and I have not been one of the people who wanted her out months ago, I wanted her to stay in and keep it clean and fair. The long primary has benefitted the party, certainly by motivating his supporters and volunteers to work that much harder, and especially in the late states that rarely get the opportunity to really participate in a meaningful way. This IS democracy at its finest and it's a beautiful thing. We can all voice our opinions and fight for what we believe in and want for our country without fear, and even if half of voters will cast their vote for McCain, and as much as I believe they're insane, it is the key to democracy, that we're allowed to have different opinions and choices.


Some of the nastier things that have been said and done have been especially disappointing and frustrating to me, but we'll get over it, Obama will get over it, and probably already has. It's politics. My biggest problem with HRC is the war. But that's just me, I can't speak for anyone else. My feelings regarding the Clintons have never been hate, but disappointment.

I do think she'll win Indiana by a few points though, and stay in the race until at least June, which is good with me, I just want them to stop giving Republicans ammunition.

[cboy4]

45. I respect your opinion....and thanks for sharing your

views.

[Hoof Hearted]

46. A poll you might find interesting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5830451&mesg_id=5830451

[cboy4]

47. I'm deeply disturbed with the

"Clinton supporter = Republican, we can build the Democratic party without them." answer...

But I'm encouraged by how many voted: "I like most Clinton supporters, but there are rotton apples on any tree, including Obama's."

The poll was closer than I would have bet.

[dbmk]

48. I think you start with the wrong assumption

As far as I can tell, the problem people have had with this primary race is not the length. (Everyone can see the benefit from that.)

Some people see a problem with the way Hillary has run her campaign, while still agreeing to some of your points. But as far as I can tell, you rule that side out of the discussion. Which is a tad dishonest, since you want to use the positive reponses as validation - and in that case you have to let people issue disclaimers.

(Without aiming for any comparison whatsoever, but only to exemplify: Won't you agree that Hitler put people to work? Yes is the truthful specific answer, but the full answer would seem prudent, would it not?)

You also have to ask if people think the benefits could have been gained without the issues they see as being problematic with the process or its participants as it progressed. Or if they think it could have been even better.

Because personally I don't agree with the thought that we have seen democracy at its finest.

[cboy4]

50. You answered my question, which is that everyone can

see the benefit from the length of the primary.

The reasons I didn't want to discuss anything about the way Hillary has run her campaign are, not the least, I would then start picking apart all of the things I dislike about Obama.

All subjective opinions on both of our parts, I might add.

Then all of a sudden, we're off track and not answering the OP.

That's why I told another poster I didn't want to get into anything other than what I asked in the OP.

[dbmk]

51. Again, I feel misrepresented

Yeah, I agree that the length of primary it self seems to have been a benefit. But I feel that you want to use that as a validation of one particular candidates presence and actions.

Because my agreement on that particular point does not rule out that I think there have been factors working against that - and possibly winning out over that in the end. And I insist that such consideration is always listed with the other answer.

And there in lies my problem with your limitation of the discussion, even though I understand that it will bring about a much more subjective debate, with all that brings with it.

Let me put my answer this way; I think it might turn out to be an overall benefit, but certain actions by one or more of the contenters have prevented this from being a sure thing.

[mindfulNJ]

49. I'll admit anything you want

a long as Hillary gets out so we can start beating up on McSame.

[Skidmore]

54. I find it interesting that you are admitting that Hillary has done damage to the party.

[cboy4]

58. You should work for FOX News with your proficiency in

lying Skidmore.

Of course I never say such a thing.

:thumbsdown:

[Skidmore]

69. Sure you did.

You ask us to acknowledge overreacting to the damage done by Hillary to the party which, from your statement, you apparently do not dispute.

BTW, I neither acknowledge overreacting and heartily concur with you that she has damaged the party.

[cboy4]

73. Actually, as you know, I was responding to all of the

usual suspects like yourself who have accused Hillary of damaging the party.

Something I don't agree with.

But you do have your lying down to a science.

Maybe you'll win the Nobel Peace Prize this year.

[Skidmore]

74. I stated my opinion. I did not lie.

And I believe Hillary has damaged the party. Live with it.

[cboy4]

79. You sound very schizophrenic with all of your lying and

denials and twisting of words.

I've posted employment openings at Fox News for your convenience:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,27906,00.html

[Skidmore]

80. How old are you?

[cboy4]

81. Old enough to see through your mind games chump.

[yourguide]

56. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

** Admit that her staying in the race helped establish a record number of Democratic registrations? (Obviously Obama supporters were instrumental as well, even it was because they were angry with her and want to vote for Barack.)

NO

** Admit that there will still be more than enough time to campaign against McCain? (It's my opinion that if Obama can't beat McCain with even just a month of heavy ads and campaigning, the people of America are happy with keeping the GOP in charge.)

NO

** Admit that it was awesome to allow so many voters in "late states" to participate in the primary process?

yes

** Admit that when you really think about it, this is democracy at its finest?

NO NO NO - finest my ass

** And most importantly, admit that you've been overreacting about the damage Hillary has done to the party by staying in this razor close race and fight?

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Or will your answer be you hate Hillary.

yes

[cboy4]

59. What a sad and lonely life you must live with all of your hate.

It's unimaginable anyone can stand being around you for more than 30 seconds without running for the hills.

Have a blessed day.

[yourguide]

61. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

you keep making crap up. Be my guest. It's about as credible as your OP.

I respond, you insult. I posted nothing personally insulting towards you yet you brought it down to personal insults yet again. You take after your candidate of choice.

[hell-bent]

64. You sir, are the one full of hate and anger.

Where is this "unity"crap that the Master teaches?

[yourguide]

66. Methuen, is that you?

Sorry, where is the hate and anger? I responded to the questions and disagreed with his statements except one.

One word answers. Yes, No, Yes. And democracy at it's finest? it was a low and dirty campaign. Even the NY times who ENDORSED her wrote an op ed about the "low road to victory". HRC supporters complained about Obamas attacks...it seems to me that both sides didnt like being attacked so I would guess that neither side is proud of the attacks.

It's you guys that are full of hate and anger. I answered yes/no/yes and received insults in return.

Take a look in the mirror.

[yardwork]

139. Maybe you need a vacation from the internets.

[depakid]

57. Point by point

** Admit that her staying in the race helped establish a record number of Democratic registrations? (Obviously Obama supporters were instrumental as well, even it was because they were angry with her and want to vote for Barack.)

I don't think there's any question about that-

Around the state (Oregon), elections offices this weekend are beginning to ship a record-shattering 2.2 million mail ballots to registered voters, largely the result of a history-making presidential race that has brought out tens of thousands of new, younger voters.

"This just thrills me," (Secretary of State) Bradbury said. "It's hugely satisfying to have Oregon's primary actually mean something for the first time in 40 years."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=5806447

** Admit that there will still be more than enough time to campaign against McCain? (It's my opinion that if Obama can't beat McCain with even just a month of heavy ads and campaigning, the people of America are happy with keeping the GOP in charge.)

Most other countries call elections and they're held within 6 weeks or less. Perhaps the biggest problem America has is its money based and seemingly perpetual election cycle.

To paraphrase Al Gore: There's something wrong with putting up Christmas decorations the day after Halloween.

** Admit that it was awesome to allow so many voters in "late states" to participate in the primary process?

Not awesome, per se, but healthy for a truly representative Democracy in a large and diverse country.

** Admit that when you really think about it, this is democracy at its finest?

Unfortunately, no its not- but it's all Americans have at the moment.

[cboy4]

62. Yea, I can agree with your comments .. "awesome" is,

in hindsight, an overstatement on my part.

Your last answer made me laugh out loud. :)

[depakid]

70. And that bit about providing a balance?

I can relate to that- just as most of us can about having a laugh or two at the absurdity of American style Democracy.

[TragedyandHope]

65. McCain doesn't have a chance in November

as I've been saying all along. I look forward to Hillary's gracious concession speech. I expect nothing less.

No matter who the nominee is, both sides will need each other heading into November, regardless of what anyone says or feels right now. I give Hillary supporters the benefit of the doubt, as I've said before. They are good Democrats, as are supporters of her opponent. With the current crises facing America and the world, this election is too important to hand over to McCain just because of the tone of this Primary campaign season.

All the national polling now is next to worthless in the heat of this Primary race, with three candidates still in the running. I am certain that the reports of both sides saying they will stay home or vote McCain are greatly exaggerated. We will come together for the convention, as will Hillary and Barack. When we get into the General Election, the 80% of Americans who think Bush has taken the country in the wrong direction will turn away from McCain in droves.

Yes, it's going to be a tough battle, but after the record Democratic turnouts during this Primary season, we have the wind at our backs going into the General Election. Many of the hypotheticals we have debated over will not matter, but we will have plenty of new and unexpected obstacles to overcome. I have no doubt the desperate Rethugs will make this one of the dirtiest races ever, but in the end it will work against them.

There will be a Democrat in the White House next year. Then, we can start the enormous task of working to dig the country of the hole Bush has been digging for the past 7 years.

[cboy4]

71. McCain absolutely will have a chance in November if

Obama (if the nominee) can't get enough support from Clinton supporters, including the albeit few who are members here at DU.

But at least you recognize this in your post.


on edit....typo

[smiley_glad_hands]

67. Sure, if thats what it takes.eom

[yourguide]

72. Cboy...

still waiting on you to address the fact that I answered your post without personal attacks but that's how you chose to respond.

[cboy4]

76. You answered my post like a two year old, yourguide....

With a thinly veiled full blown temper tantrum.

What you call personal attacks in nothing more than constructive criticism in order to help you turn your life around and hopefully begin your long road to finding happiness, sans your bitter anger.

Happy to help! :hug:

[yourguide]

77. In other words...

You cant defend it. Sorry buddy. My answers were yes/no/yes, there was no anger, no temper tantrum - just your own.

You are judgmental, hypocritical, and are now officially welcome to my ignore list.

I'll take you back off to watch you cry when HRC finally flames out.

Best of luck to you and your attempts to find happiness by insulting anyone who disagrees with you.

I'll feel sorry for you when I can finally stop laughing at you.

[SwampG8r]

75. some is true some is not

that being said i hate her

[madrchsod]

78. simple -----she thinks she knows what is best for us

obama at least knows that he has to create a movement before we get what we need.

two democrats that can link back to barack and the grassroots movement have taken two republican held districts with a combined 60+ years of control.

obama has raised millions of dollars from small individual contributions....

i do not hate hillary i feel really sorry for her because it was her`s to lose and she did....

[Bluenorthwest]

82. All the new voters

And all the attention to the process by those who ignored it in 06 and 04 is so healthy that I care for nothing else.
I'm not so stoked with either of the choices and also not too worried about either. I can tell you this, the contest is what is making the candidate. If I was in the shoes of either candidate, I would want the other to remain in the race. For my own benefit. If I was in the shoes of Dr Dean, I would also want the contest to continue. That is my take on it. It is helpful to all but ardent candidate boosters. As a Party booster, I see this year as a boon.
Those with worries about the length or high drama of this cycle need to learn about Kennedy vs Carter when Jimmy ran for re-election. This year makes that one look like an ice cream social, or like the political theater that it is. Can't pack a house unless you make a show. Can't win both White House and Congress without packing the house.
The play's the thing.

[ShortnFiery]

84. What we should LEARN from past Democratic Primary history is that IF we let HRC carry this

all the way to the Convention in August, The Democratic Party will LOSE, both the Presidency and The Congress in November. HISTORY bears the forgoing prediction. :(

[gbrenna]

85. How about admit the truth

Hillary has already hurt Democrat's chances in the fall. The longer this goes on, the worse it will be. Hillary provided John McCain with time to heal the Republican party, raise money and define himself. She helped define the probable Democratic nominee-Sen. Obama- as an elitist who hates America (Wright thing). This could potentially cost the Democrat Party congressional wins as well-so thanks Sen. Clinton. It's beginning to feel like 1994.

[Bluenorthwest]

88. Yes but members of the Democratic Party disagree

The Democrat Party, well, who knows?

[gbrenna]

135. The Democrats who say a prolonged race is good...

seem to Hillary supporters.

[cboy4]

93. Your subjective view that Hillary has "hurt Democrat's

chances in the fall", doesn't make it the truth, gbrenna.

And the more Obama people complain about Hillary staying in the race, the longer it will in fact take the Obama camp and Dean to heal the Democratic Party.

In fact, many Hillary Clinton supporters might actually announce their support for Obama more quickly if she's allowed to do her thing, versus dropping out.

Especially when they keep hearing charges of Hillary damaging the Party.

[gbrenna]

134. Maybe so

I don't know. I just heard Hillary say that 2025 delegates is not the magic number. She changed it to include FL and MI. I just get the feeling she will say anything/ do anything to win this nomination-including destroy the party. I want McCain to lose; I am worried that this endless primary campaign may help elect McCain.

[Colobo]

87. I'll admit that now. Don't have to wait till she drops out.

[cboy4]

100. Not surprising to hear that coming from you....

You've been very classy as far back as I can remember.

[Hamlette]

89. Yes. Now will you admit her campaign did not have to turn negative to do all that? n/t

[cboy4]

101. Sure....when Obama apologizes for the Obama incident,

I'll have a lot of things to say.

[Hamlette]

118. LOL What is the "Obama incident" (or are we playing games here?) n/t

[cboy4]

120. Ooops, I meant McClurkin. :idiot:

But I'm sure he has an incident he should apologize for. lol

[Hamlette]

125. oh, so we are playing games....my bad. n/t

[cboy4]

129. No, we're not playing games.....I corrected my typo....When

Obama apologizes for the McClurkin, then I'll address your question.

[Hamlette]

132. it is game playing and of the very worst kind

you ask me, as an Obama SUPPORTER to admit to 5 things. I say yes, I so admit but in return ask you to admit to one thing as a Hillary SUPPORTER.

You tell me you won't do it until Obama does something.

I have no control over Obama. I can't get you what you want.

So you are playing games by moving the goal posts to a place where I have no control.

I will say that I'm not as upset by the McClurkin thing as you apparently are. That may have something to do with the fact that all of my gay and lesbian (yes, lesbian!) friends are now Obama supporters. To me, if it doesn't bug them its not a deal breaker for me. Also, I try to judge my candidate by his own actions, not the actions of people who support him. I'm far more upset by the racist comments of Bill, the nasty, ugly, divisive tone of the Hillary campaign ("he's not from Indiana"? Is this a presidential campaign or a grade school fight?) Ultimately, however, I believe she cannot win in November and I have Clinton fatigue. I'm tried of defending them because they do stupid things (like Bosnia and Monica.)

So, I'm not playing your game.

Not until you get Hillary to dye her hair purple.

[Divine Discontent]

147. that's the one issue I hold against him still, despite being strongly for him with who is left

that disgusting incident with the annoying man, who gets up there and preaches with authority about Jesus, that others decide to hand him because he's famous as a gospel singer, well that really ticked me off, and Barack appeared to not want to support us GLBT peeps - and that was very upsetting. If I ever meet him, I'll say, "I support you, but I expect you to defend my equal rights as much as my relatives defended black people's rights in the 60's."

[NoSheep]

91. I would admit all of those. I never thought ANY of them should drop out

[gcomeau]

92. "Will Obama Supporters"

** Admit that her staying in the race helped establish a record number of Democratic registrations?

Hardly. It was Obama's massive grassroots registration drive efforts that did the vast majority of the work, and bluntly he didn't need Hillary in the race to do it. The increased false hype around the supposedly still competitive race may have made some marginal difference but not worth the trade off in damage it caused.

Admit that there will still be more than enough time to campaign against McCain?

Of course there is. How many people have you actually heard complaining about available time?

Admit that it was awesome to allow so many voters in "late states" to participate in the primary process?

No. It was not "awesome". "Awesome" would have been allowing them to participate in an honorable and civil contest between two respectful democratic opponents, not foisting this circus of acrimony and smear and fear-mongering off on them.

** Admit that when you really think about it, this is democracy at its finest?

See above.

And most importantly, admit that you've been overreacting about the damage Hillary has done to the party by staying in this razor close race and fight?

Bullshit.

1. It hasn't been "razor close" in months. Obama made it practically impossible for her to win in freaking March. EARLY March. When it is almost IMPOSSIBLE for one of the competitors to win it is not a "razor close" race.

2. There has been no overreaction to what Hillary has done. Obama is still going to win, but he's going to have to work a hell of a lot harder for it against McCain now because of the crap Hillary pulled in this campaign. And the manner in which she conducted herself was abominable. I don't believe I have ever seen one Democrat stand in front of a national television audience and explicitly state that the Republican nominee for the presidency was more qualified to be president than the Democrat who had already all but clinched the nomination. And I'm quite certain I've never seen one stand in front of a national television audience and try to draw an association between a leading Democratic presidential candidate after more than 40 states had voted... and HAMAS, playing 6 degrees of separation through a reprinted article in his damn church newsletter for god's sake.

So don't give us this "overreaction" crap. There is no excuse for her conduct. NONE.

[cboy4]

99. I couldn't disagree more with every word you wrote.

And this kind of response is exactly what I'm talking about -- especially the bullshit about how Obama should get all of the credit for the increase in registrations.

[gcomeau]

102. Well disagree in substance then.

Instead of just declaring you disagree.

In state after state we've seen the reports of Obama's grassroots people signing up thousands and thousands of new voters. Amazingly, I never seem to see those reports about Clinton's campaign. I have no doubt they signed people up, but Obama's campaign was the workhorse there and we all know it. New voter registration was a central foundation of his entire campaign approach. Clinton spent the vast majority of here time and effort appealing to the existing voter base.

And do tell me what I said about some of the crap Clinton has pulled hyping McCain over Obama and trying to associate him with Hamas through his church that was in any way incorrect. Lay it out.

Tell me how I was wrong about the state of the race since March by telling me what realistic path Hillary had to actually winning this "razor close" race you speak of from after the Ohio/Texas/etc... results were tabulated.

Go ahead. Speak up. I'm listening.

[cboy4]

106. No, I'm not addressing the Hamas question because

I'm attempting to keep my OP on topic so it doesn't transform into a debate about whether or not Hillary has run a dirty campaign.

And let's put it this way .. if the race wasn't razor close .. with Hillary winning one big state after the other .. Obama supporters wouldn't be having such a cow about the primary continuing.

Deep down inside, Obama supporters know this is very tight.

[gcomeau]

107. That WAS the topic.

I'm attempting to keep my OP on topic so it doesn't transform into a debate about whether or not Hillary has run a dirty campaign.

You were the one that made the topic the claim that this continuing campaign was a positive thing. What TYPE of campaign it has been addresses that question directly. You can't ask us to "admit" that it was a positive then say anything that questions whether it was a positive is off topic just so you don't have to deal with any counter arguments.

And let's put it this way .. if the race wasn't razor close .. with Hillary winning one big state after the other .. Obama supporters wouldn't be having such a cow about the primary continuing.

Oh that's just beautiful. You refuse to address the reason we're "having such a cow" when I present it directly to you because you declare it off topic, then after you've swept it off the table without responding to it you declare that obviously we're upset because the race is so close, because hey, what other reason could we possibly have? It's certainly not like I just told you in my last post or anything and you just ignored me completely.

Get real. You said you disagreed with everything I said but when asked to define how and why you disagreed with it with any kind of substantive response illustrating how anything I said was wrong you just ducked the entire question. It was YOUR topic, try addressing it.

YOU called the race razor close. Show us how.

YOU said the campaign continuing was a positive thing. Address how what I posted about what Hillary has been doing doesn't refute that.

YOU said that Hillary staying in gave us all this huge record new voter registration. Deal with the fact that everyone knows it's been Obama's campaign out there registering people by the thousands in an unparalleled nationwide voter registration drive.

[cboy4]

111. The polls are close, the popular vote is close....a razor

close race.

The campaign continuing is very positive...so many late state voters are getting to participate. What a beautiful thing.

The record new voter registration is a team effort on behalf of all DEMOCRATS.

Ughhh. You're too much.

[gcomeau]

119. Sigh...

The polls don't determine the nominee, the votes do. The votes for delegates. Which are NOT close.

The "popular vote" does not determine the nominee, and can't even be tabulated accurately in the primaries anyway due to caucus states not keeping records. But even there it is not close either. Within 2% is close when you've tabulated 10% of the total vote with 90% remaining. It is NOT close when you've tabulated 95% of the vote with 5% remaining, and with no advantage for the trailing person in the remaining areas to be counted.

But the race is for DELEGATES. And it is not close. I'll ask you again, show me a reasonable path for Hillary to have won the nomination going back to after the Ohio/Texas results were tabulated. If I ask you to show me how a marathon is a "razor close" race I do not want to hear that the second place guy ran this 500 meter stretch at basically the same pace as the first place guy... who ran it 20 minutes earlier and is now about 5 minutes from crossing the finish line.

As for the campaign continuing being very positive... yeah, you said that already. I showed it rather clearly wasn't. You refused to address what I posted, and you're still doing it. Hillary hyping the republican nominee over the leading democratic candidate is NOT positive. Hillary trying to associate the leading democratic candidate with HAMAS is NOT positive.

And yes, the voter registration is on behalf of all Democrats, but is is not being conducted equally by all Democrats. It is being done by the Obama campaign, overwhelmingly. I know it. You know it. Everyone here knows it.

[cboy4]

122. Oh my Lord. Overwhelmingly?!!!! -- Do you have a link

or data that demonstrates the ratio per candidate?

The bottom line is this is very close race.

And the bottom line is this is Democracy at its finest, regardless of the terrible caucus system.

What we have learned is I like to count all of the votes.

You?

Not so much. :)


on edit...typo

[gcomeau]

124. You keep making statements...

...and ignoring requests to back them up with ARGUMENT let alone data, and you're getting on me for stating something everyone here knows to be true? There isn't a person here who isn't familiar with what Obama's campaign has been doing at the grassroots level to register voters in every state in the country, and how hard he's been pushing voter registration at every event he attends since the race began. He has had a much stronger focus on and efforts directed at new voter registration than the Clinton campaign because that's where he gets a lot of his support, bringing new people in. Clinton has been focused on appealing to the existing voter base. In PA Clinton won the state by 9, but Obama won new voters by 22. And that's not exactly an isolated trend. So Hillary isn't real motivated to sign up as many new voting Obama supporters as she can now is she?

"The bottom line is this is a very close race".

Well gee, now that you've said it three times that must make it true! SHOW HOW THAT IS SO. I've told you how you can do that multiple times now. Show me any reasonable path that Hillary had to the nomination from all the way back in early March after Ohio and Texas were counted. Show me. The race is to the nomination, if it's close that means she has a likely means of actually WINNING. What. Is. It?

"And the bottom line is this is Democracy at its finest"

And hey, three repetitions of that makes it true as well! HOW is it democracy at it's finest? How is one democratic candidate advocating that the republican nominee is more qualified than the leading democratic candidate "Democracy at it's finest"? HOW is that candidate trying to link the other to Hamas through a ridiculous game of 6 degrees of separation on national television "Democracy at it's finest"?

[cboy4]

130. So.....I'm supposed to believe your contention about

Obama single-handedly propelling the registration numbers to record totals by virtue of "something everyone here knows to be true"?!

Hoe-kayyyy.

Aggressive grassroots work doesn't necessarily equate to record numbers gcomeau

I want to see the numerical breakdown, because I think you're overstating. The only evidence you're providing is hearsay and opinions (such as Hillary isn't really motivated....)

Ughhh.

You don't know that.

Now then, her path is through the S. Delegates. If she does well in Indiana, and she does better than expected in North Carolina ... and then wins W. Virginia, which she will, and continues on, the S. Delegates could decide she is more electable and choose her.

And finally, no, no .. I'm not dealing with subjective opinions about issues you disagree about. It's democracy at it's finest because we're into May, and we're going to be counting even more votes tonight.

I love it.

And so should you.

[calmblueocean]

127. Great post.

"Razor close", this election ain't.

[cboy4]

131. Of course it's close.....the polls even reflect that.

And if Hillary wins Indiana and performs better than expected in North Carolina, the race tightens even further.

[TheDoorbellRang]

96. I'll cut her some slack after I see what she does next

I'm not kicking the football until I have a little more trust in Lucy

[DMorgan]

103. There are NOT "millions" of DUers who support Hillary

There are a few dozen who refuse to open their minds to other possibilities, and some dozens that DO expect to be able to suppport Obama, if he is the nominee.

No one here is FORCED to be here, and no one has a gun to your head FORCING you to read Obama threads.

If you don't like what some people have to say, just say so. Then please move on, and discuss the real issues.

Please don't preach to us.

Thanks

Now as to your suggestions that HILLARY drew out new voter registrations, or that Hillary leaving after today would be HELPFUL to Obama, or that Hillary has NOT sewn seeds of mistrust of Obama in the public mind..."gave one speech" "as far as I know he's not a Muslim", "ready on day one" .... let me clearly state you are feeling guilty over this mess and want our forgiveness. It's yours, as soon as you give up the idea that Hillary has to be the next President.

[cboy4]

108. Reading comprehension is your friend DMorgan.

I said millions of Hillary supporters, INCLUDING DUers.

Obviously there aren't millions of DUers, considering 120,000 people are registered at site.

Now then, you're not the authority on real issues, so I get to make the call when it's my thread.

I'm in charge DMorgan. Not you.

If you don't like what I choose to discuss.....you move along.

[DMorgan]

141. You're "in charge"?

As far as I know, you don't OWN this site, so I don't have to decide what to read and what NOT to read here, based upon YOUR opinions of how WONDERFUL this Hillary campaign has been for the Democrats.



I am an authority on many issues, but when it comes to politics, I always thought it best for primary candidates NOT to burn their bridges before they are the front runner. That's just me.

So you are NOT guilty of slamming Obama supporters except me?

[last1standing]

105. I'll be happy to agree with all but the last two.

Hillary's camp was not "democracy at its finest" it was rovian style politics at its worst. They slandered Obama's religion, experience, attitude and - yes - color in some of the worst primary campaigning I've ever seen. It was far worse than what the Gephart monsters did to Dean before the Iowa caucus.

If Hillary had run a half-way decent campaign, hitting Obama on substance instead of the personal attacks and lies I would have been very happy for her to stay in for as long as she liked. I even posted a thread to that effect about a month ago when I thought she had finished with the destructive ads. In fact, if she hadn't gone this route I would have changed my support to her instead of Obama after Edwards dropped out. But there comes a limit to what a person can support in good conscience and her actions left me no other choice.

You can take this any way you like but you asked for an opinion and you got one.

[cboy4]

109. When I talk about democracy at its finest, and perhaps

I should have been more clear .. I'm referring to the political process, and in particular, the fact that so many late state voters are getting to participate.

I'm not discussing dirty campaign tactics on either side.

The fact that so many votes are being counted into May is Democracy at its finest, in my opinion.

[last1standing]

110. In that case I only disagree with one point.

I love the idea that so many people are getting a say in the primaries, I just can't stand the level of personal destruction that has come from it. I really with my vote in Michigan had counted but our local politicians decided their own quests for power were more important then the average citizen's vote.

Honestly, I can't find a Damned thing about Michigan Democrats that makes them effectively better than the repubs. Nothing.

[cboy4]

113. It's politics.......personal destruction is nothing new to a

campaign.

There's a very ugly Republican State Senate race going on where I live.

Everyone will get over it.

And I don't know what to tell you about Michigan dude. lol

[last1standing]

116. It's not new but it's still destructive.

My point is that Hillary went over the line with her attacks, not because Obama is sacred, but because this election is so important. We're in deep, deep water here and we can't afford someone spending millions of dollars tearing down other Democrats.

We were in a good place this year. McCain and other repubs are having a hard time raising cash and that was going to be a big advantage as they wouldn't have had the ability to effectively get their smears out on a national scale. Unfortunately, we had a Democrat with extraordinarily deep pockets do the job for them.

And yes, I'd be saying the same exact thing if the roles were reversed. In fact, I'd be supporting Hillary if they were.

As for Michigan, I just need to rant about that every few minutes. It keeps me from writing obscene emails to all of my representatives.

[AlinPA]

112. I respect your opinion. Now, this part about hating Hillary. I don't. My wife and daughter don't.

But we have moved to Obama (I actually donated to her campaign!) because of her method of campaigning and our dislike for her insults to Obama's supporters. I'm not going to list them, but a lot of the stuff she did made a lot of people angry. You have probably read them many times in this forum. As you have heard me write before, it all started in RI with her "The sky will open. The lights will come down. Celestial choirs will be singing and everyone will know we should do the right thing and the world will be perfect."

That is an insult to his supporters - a day or so after shaking his hand in CA and we were all talking of a Dream Team. The rest of the stuff that followed was not consistent with how Democrats should treat each other. It's not hate, it is real disappointment to the three of us.

[cboy4]

115. Okay Alan....fair enough....

It's okay for you to support Obama just like it's okay for Hillary Clinton folks to support her.

Thanks for writing.

[AlinPA]

117. BTW, I agree with your "Admit that..." list. I don't know about the over-reacting, might be

people blowing off steam.

[liskddksil]

114. I would agree with your assessment if

The last few months between Obama and Hillary, produced a campaign that talked about the important issues facing this country and was a double-team attack on Bush and Mccain. However, what we have had is essentially Hillary attacking Obama and vice-versa. Their surrogates attacking each other. Their supporters attacking each other. I dont know who's fault it is, but this prolonged campaign opportunity was bungled, and McCain has been given pretty much a free-ride.

[DMorgan]

143. Just like a Hillary supporter

All the GOOD stuff about this whole campaign mess is due to the wonderful Hillary, all the BAD stuff is from the guy with the funny name whome the OP admits he doesn't "trust". And he wants the Obama folks to be better behaved.

YEAH.........Ask Hillary to behave herself first, please.

[otohara]

121. Historic, Maddening, Exciting, Divisive

my emotions have run the gamete during this primary season, and I'm exhausted.

I loved her in the beginning and when she throws her support to Obama, I will love her again. All will be forgiven, even the mocking of Obama supporters -

Yes she brought a lot to the table this year, all of it wasn't bad.

I worry about Hillary supporters who will refuse to accept loss and refuse to vote for Obama or even worse, vote for McCain.

[cboy4]

123. I think when push comes to shove, and everyone goes

into the voting booth with Roe V Wade, the Supreme Court, Iraq, etc. in mind, people will do the right thing .. even if they have to hold their noses.

The bottom line is trying to make sure the Dems take back the White House.

It's the way I look at things ..

I won't be happy having to vote for Obama if he's the nominee because I don't trust him, but I'll do it for the good of the country.

[DMorgan]

142. Has Hillary EVER talked about Roe v Wade?

NO!

You don't trust Obama? Why not? His positions, as you say, are bout the same as Hillary. What's the problem here? You don't like the way he looks, the way he speaks, the way he threatens to make Hillary's campaign history by turning out more voters, more donations, more delegates? What exactly don't you trust? Have you met him? Have you met Hillary? I bet you just get your feelings from a TV in your home, and a computer, somewhere, where you hear and read a lot of OTHER PEOPLE's opinions.

[calmblueocean]

126. One by one

- Admit Hillary's helped register more Democrats? Sure. I wonder how many of those new registrations will end up voting for McCain, though.

- Admit there will still be enough time to campaign against McCain? Nope. There's never enough time. And all this time we've spent fighting each other may just end up being the distraction McCain needs to squeak by.

- Admit it was awesome to allow so many late states to participate in the process? I admit that it makes me smile to see Guam finally get to participate meaningfully, but I don't think it was worth the damage that's been done.

- Democracy at its finest? I can't say that. These last weeks have been focused on manipulating the public with slimy non-issues and character attacks. In a campaign between two Democrats, that's just ugly and inexcusable.

- Admit that I've been overreacting about Hillary? Tell me that again when the 527s start running ads with Hillary in them attacking Obama. I'll still vote for Hil if she's the nominee, but she had the choice to either reject the right wing characterizations of Obama or amplify them, and she chose to amplify them.

That's what frustrates me most. Hillary has every right to stay in and campaign, but it's how she's chosen to campaign that's made the difference for me. I really would've liked to see Hillary make her stand solely on why she is better qualified, and not by using the same kinds of attacks against Obama that the right wing has used against Democrats for the past 20 years. I think Hillary is actually much better at that kind of bare-knuckled, below-the-belt campaigning than McCain is, and she has been able to sink arrows into Obama that McCain on his own never could've.

I don't hate Hillary. I'll vote for her if she's the nominee because the stakes are too high. But there's no denying the damage she's done. This primary has turned out like a Greek tragedy, and most of that weight rests on her shoulders.

[cboy4]

133. CBO, this thread is getting too long to for me to keep

repeating the same thing to each person.

Now, if you want to talk damage, should we talk about how Obama supporters have turned off many Hillary supporters by saying Hillary has run a sleazy campaign?

I'm going to vote for the nominee, but I bet there are a lot of Hillary supporters who will not vote for Obama because they're so furious.

It just seems to me if Obama has this locked up, why wouldn't his supporters just let things go so you/they don't alienate the people (Hillary supporters) you're going to need to defeat McCain?

[mkultra]

136. heres my answer

I disagree that her staying in the race helped registrations
I don't think letting McCain campaign unanswered for so many months helped us in the least.
One Month of heavy ads and campaigning wouldn't be enough for any candidate and frankly, shouldn't need to be.
Im not sure there is enough time left to work against McCain

I do think it was great to let so many states participate.

I do NOT think this contest represented democracy at its finest.

And i still think that Hillary's desire to fulfill personal desires HAS done harm to our party as a whole.


Ill leave my sword sheathed and not attempt to extract from you the things i think HRC supports should ADMIT.

I am willing to talk openly about these topics though if possible.

[yardwork]

138. I agree with your first three points. I dunno about "democracy at its finest"

but that's not just Hillary's fault. I don't see much evidence of "democracy at its finest" anywhere in the U.S. in any party.

I don't need to "admit that I've been overreacting" because I don't think that Hillary has done much damage to the party. I've been asking her to drop out but I've also posted that I think this extended primary is probably beneficial to Democrats, for the reasons you cite and others as well.

While I don't like some of things that Hillary's campaign has done, I will still support her if she's our nominee.

Cheers! :pals:

[Erin Elizabeth]

145. Ick.

Will Obama supporters:

** Admit that her staying in the race helped establish a record number of Democratic registrations? (Obviously Obama supporters were instrumental as well, even it was because they were angry with her and want to vote for Barack.)
The tone of the last half of that post was gross. But whatever. Here you go:


Will Obama supporters:

** Admit that her staying in the race helped establish a record number of Democratic registrations? (Obviously Obama supporters were instrumental as well, even it was because they were angry with her and want to vote for Barack.)

Honestly I'm having a hard time seeing anything good out of her staying in so long. Only bad. The registrations would have been accomplished without her staying in so long.

** Admit that there will still be more than enough time to campaign against McCain? (It's my opinion that if Obama can't beat McCain
with even just a month of heavy ads and campaigning, the people of America are happy with keeping the GOP in charge.)

Can't admit or deny this. Only time will tell, won't it?

** Admit that it was awesome to allow so many voters in "late states" to participate in the primary process?

That speaks to the need to overhaul the whole thing, not having one person stay in so long way past when they had any chance of winning, just to give the later states (and I'm in one) the chance to feel like a part of things. There need to be POSITIVE changes to keep that in place.

** Admit that when you really think about it, this is democracy at its finest?

At its finest? No, not sure about that at all.

** And most importantly, admit that you've been overreacting about the damage Hillary has done to the party by staying in this razor close race and fight?

I don't feel I've overreacted. The whole thing has been like someone acting horribly bad and then turning around, smiling and saying "I did that because it was good for you!" Ridiculous rationalization of very bad behavior.

Or will your answer be you hate Hillary.

Not sure I HATE her, but I'm damn close.

And before you answer, always remember that if you expect Obama to win the GE, he will need the support of millions of Hillary Clinton supporters, including Hillary DUers.

So I personally have to kiss your ass? No thanks. Vote, don't vote, whatever. I can't hold a gun to your head.

I'm really curious about this.

Let's see how many people surprise me.

Your time starts now.

What the hell was that last line about?