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Some questions I have about Kucinich.

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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:17 PM
Original message
Some questions I have about Kucinich.
Edited on Sat Jan-03-04 04:57 PM by Sean Reynolds
As a lot of you know I support Kucinich, Dean and Braun for president. Granted Howard Dean is my first choice, but I'd be happy if the other two were to win the nomination as well. Since Dean is my first choice I haven't really researched Kucinich much. I've gone by what I've seen here on DU. The other day I finally began researching Kucinich and began finding stuff that contradicted his stance on the issues today. In no way is this an attack on Kucinich, more an open dialogue with his supporters as to why he's changed his mind on a number of issues.

Some issues I've come across:


  • In 1998, Kucinich voted for the "Iraq Liberation Act," Bill Clinton’s call for regime change in Iraq. "It should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and to promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime," reads the Iraq Liberation Act.

    http://www.citizinemag.com/politics/politics-0309_antibush_kucinich.htm

  • In a February 23 interview on Meet the Press, Kucinich argued for the continuation of sanctions on Iraq as an alternative to war, despite the fact that sanctions killed more than 1 million Iraqis--and despite the fact that he opposed the sanctions in a Progressive magazine interview a few months earlier.

    http://www.msnbc.com/news/876263.asp (link doesn't work now - MSNBC doesn't archive Meet the Press back to February 23).

  • Kucinich argues that the important difference between Bush’s war and the 1991 Gulf War was that under Bush Sr., the U.S. was part of an international coalition defending Kuwait. In other words, he might have supported regime change in Iraq if Bush had only gathered international support--which is pretty much now the position of mainstream Democrats.

    http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/471/471_05_Kucinich.shtml

  • He said that he had voted for the congressional resolution authorizing President Bush to take military action in response to the attacks after 9-11.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A63537-2003Nov19?language=printer



Has Kucinich changed his international view since 2001? I ask because he's running as the pro-peace candidate, but it seems he's for war just like the rest. Or am I reading into this?

Also today Kucinich is running on a pro-gay marriage belief but as a candidate for Congress in 1996, he said he opposed a change in law to allow same-sex marriages. What made him change his mind? Does this tie into him changing his mind on abortion as well?

http://www.cleveland.com/kucinich/index.ssf?/base/news/1058348272157840.xml

Basically I want to know why he did a 180. Just like I wanted to know why Howard Dean did a 180 on the issue of trade. I hope you guys can help me, thanks!

Put in links! :)
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WhoCountsTheVotes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yeah, you're reading into it
Kucinich has been consistent throughout his career. He has always treated the use of force as a last option. Of course he authorized military action after 911!

Kucinich is strong on defense, and has been the most effective pro-peace vote in Congress for a long time.
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Granted I don't deny Kucinich is one of the most effective pro-peace cand.
But this is what gets me:

Kucinich argues that the important difference between Bush’s war and the 1991 Gulf War was that under Bush Sr., the U.S. was part of an international coalition defending Kuwait. In other words, he might have supported regime change in Iraq if Bush had only gathered international support--which is pretty much now the position of mainstream Democrats.

That is exactly Dean's belief as well. Dean might have supported the war if Bush built a multilateral force and gave proof that Saddam had WMD.

I'm not saying that stance is wrong, because Dean supports that stance as well.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sean
Edited on Sat Jan-03-04 04:53 PM by Tinoire
I do not question your sincerity in asking these questions.

I have to go shower & walk the dog. When I come back, if no one has given you a satisfactory answer, I'll try.

You might want to check Kucinich vs the war against Yugoslavia and Kucinich pushing for Clinton's sanctions against Iraq to be lifted if youhave doubts.

Bottom line, he may be pro-peace but he's still an American interested in our nation's security, world-standing and a politician.

Peace
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I'll get links Tinoire!
Sorry, I was in a rush.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. It's ok...
I found your source. Trust me it's ok! Not needed & have already started researching for you. I love positive threads like yours- they remind me of the pre-Primaries DU!

I edited my post to remove that request since it's not necessary. I don't question that source though they and I don't always see eye-to-eye (if it's the same one).

No problem... Am researching the data for you :)
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Eh, too late!
;-)

I added the links, to help out other DUers if they needed.
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OhioStateProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. well, i don't think he flopped
Edited on Sat Jan-03-04 04:44 PM by OhioStateProgressive
Dennis is not a pacifist, and Dennis WOULD go to war to protect America

Dennis voted for Afghanistan, but obviously became critical during it

Dennis has always railed against unilateral action

about his other changes....I think most of it has to do with him letting go of the Catholic Dogma in him

Dennis is your basic 2nd generation polish/croatian american, from the steel towns, grounded in midwestern values...he just also has a very Progressive streak in him
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. Good answer.
See I feel him and Dean are a lot alike when it comes to foreigh affairs. But would not wage unilateral war UNLESS America was about to be attacked. But I doubt any logical candidate would be against such force.

Thanks for your answer.
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OhioStateProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. the two Dennis's
Edited on Sat Jan-03-04 08:54 PM by OhioStateProgressive
Dennis in many ways could use to regain the "edge" he had when he was younger...the "peaceful" Dennis is great...but it was the impetuous and energized Dennis who shocked the Democratic Party in 1977 by becoming the youngest Major City Mayor ever

Dennis has generally changed over the years, he was a pure Populist as Mayor...as he has become more "new age" over the years his official policy stances reflect this...back in the days when he ate Sausage and eggs and would drink a beer, I doubt a SINGLE person would have called Dennis a "liberal"

Dennis really is supported by two fronts in Ohio, those people who are "liberals and progressives", and those of us who were raised in Polish and ethnic communities, in the steel belt...it is a special form of support that Dennis will receive in Ohio and Pennsylvania(western)

we still see him as the person who represents our values, and I never use the term liberal with him:)
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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Minor bone of contention
not to insult you, it's just a nit-picky point that irritates me-

Dennis Kucinich voted in favor of the resolution that made the attack on Afghanistan legal- He did NOT vote in favor of attacking Afghanistan.

As I explained in my post to Sean downthread, the only question posed in that resolution was whether the Sept.11th attacks were sufficient to warrant a military response. Kucinich voted yes with no expectation that such a response would take place in the near future because there was no evidence at the time suggesting another nation or government was in any way responsible.

Other than that, I suspect your whole post is spot-on!
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OhioStateProgressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:31 PM
Original message
good point:)
he voted to allow America to "defend' itlsef against the terrorists, he did not vote to allow bombing of innocent children

you make a good point diamondsoul:)
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La_Serpiente Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
9. Hey Sean, I got to thank you
thanks for making this post and treating Dennis Kucinich as a serious canidate. You do the Democratic party a great service when you make respectful posts like this. :-)
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
10. If Kucinich does not get --
-- the nomination, and if whoever DOES get it beats Bush, I hope Dennis Kucinich is included in the Cabinet. He has argued for a Department of Peace. Sounds like a pretty good idea to me.

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diamondsoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 07:26 PM
Response to Original message
11. Hi, Sean. I've responded to these topics before
in other places. One fellow wrote up a blog entry about all this with no supporting links to the quotes he chose to use, and put his own interpretation into all of it. Near drove me bonkers because supporters began to ask if the blogger was right.

Ok, the Iraq Liberation Act- I've read this bill through, partly because I was a bit concerned about the vote myself, and partly because I wanted to know exactly what Kucinich voted FOR. Nowhere in that piece of legislation is there any mention at all of using military force to remove Hussein from power. It's all cooperative with the UN and other Nations which would be affected by a regime change. I found it to be a well-thought out and well-written bill which calls for removal of a dictator by peaceful means.

The Sanctions against Iraq- Kucinich being a compassionate human being has always been troubled by the inclusion of humanitarian needs in sanctions. He's called for revisions to remove those needs in the past and did so because he genuinely cared about the Iraqi people who were most affected by those types of sanctions. He knew they weren't going to hurt Hussein or his family, only the poor, the old and the weak members of Iraqi society. My personal belief is that the UN endorses the use of sanctions like these to anger the people and spur them to overthrow their own fascist government. What they don't seem to understand is that people who are sick, starving and dehydrated aren't going to be in any conditon to stage a civil war.

Now, when he spoke of maintaining the sanctions in the interview, it was stated as a clear, already functioning alternative to invasion. He did not at any time say he fully supported all the sanctions in place at the time, only that he supported sanctions over war.

The Gulf War- Two factors come into play with Bush Sr.s war vs Junior's war. One, in 1991 we were ASKED to assist in repelling an invasion by Iraq into Kuwait, and we had the support of many other nations and the UN. What that tells Kucinich is that it was a cooperative effort and that nations directly affected by the situation believed this was a just cause to fight for. We already knew what kind of man Hussein was (or at least our Goverment did) because we put him in power. It was the only moral thing to do to stop him taking over an innocent neighboring country when we gave him the power to do so.

With Junior's war, we've pretty well defied international law, ignored the pleas of millions of people world-wide and acted as a vicious invading force for no reason whatsoever, and with no support. Support Bush and Co KNEW we would need in order to ever be successful to his ends and to eventually leave the country with a new, more reliable puppet regime. It was wrong to start and we must eat some crow and get out. The world deserves some humility and regret from America.

Military response to Sept. 11th- First things first, there was NO target country named in that legislation anywhere. Number two, the vote was called for a mere 3 days after the attacks took place. Most of the country was still in a state of shock, and we had barely begun hearing suggestions about Bin Laden being the mastermind. The sole question posed in that bill was *Were the attacks perpetrated on Sept 11th sufficent to warrant a military response?*. Kucinich said yes, with the belief that such a response would only be carried out when the evidence was there to prove another nation or government planned or condoned those attacks. His floor speech called for the use of caution in making that decision, and that he voted merely on the grounds that the United States Government had an obligation to defend itself and its citizens.

Next, the gay marriage issue- My thinking is this, it's distinctly possible he believed in 1996 that Americans weren't accepting enough of the GLBT community to accept such legislation. Equally possible is that he opposed the bill from the concern that it could result in more hate crime against homosexual couples, and now after taking time to consider the position he's decided that risk is best left to individuals to decide. I really don't know why or when he changed his mind about same sex unions, but I do believe him to be honorable and trustworthy, and I believe he's merely had time to consider these older positions and see a different perspective. I have to say I've come to accept things as I aged and considered my positions that I previously opposed and, I see no reason to begrudge my candidate the same opportunity. This is also why I don't attack Howard Dean based on his previous decisions as a Governor. He's entitled to change his position over time and with due consideration.

Hope this helps, even without the links you asked for.
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. This is why I support Howard Dean and Kucinich.
Both today are a lot alike in their beliefs. Kucinich supports war IF the country is attacked; so does Dean. Both Kucinich and Dean wanted an alternative plan in invading Iraq. It looks like both supported the Afghan War, though both are against how it was done, and the first Gulf War.

Just my take on it though.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
13. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Brief answer and welcome to DU
There's a little more to being a Liberal than one's stance on abortion rights or Gay rights.

I've always thought that one of the reasons the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party is in so much trouble is because of what you just said right there. We're mixing up our terms so much that anyone could show up, say they're pro-abortion, pro-gay rights and we give them our seal of approval. This is precisely why we've been drifing to the right- not paying enough attention to the other issues. We need to at least add a few more Litmus tests.

Kucinich has been a consistent Progressive Liberal on the main issues that should count for that classification- care of the people, social programs so that women can have that child and still continue their education, affordable housing, a living wage, health care as an absolute, affordable right ((not to bang Dean but his health-care plan does not cover 100% of the people and would not be inexpensive, additionally it received a failing grade from the NPHP that evaluated all the candidates' plans), etc...

Unless you think that abortion rights are threatened in the Democratic Party under a President Kucinich who has sworn not to appoint any Justices who won't uphold Roe vs Wade (Dean won't address this issue), I don't understand why that should matter so much.

Could you explain? I am truly curious about this. Thanks
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
16. Sean Reynolds- You rascal you!
I have just spent 5 hours of my day, searching and poring over documents that made me want to weep and laugh at the same time. I need about one more hour because my head is practically spinning.

It was very educational and I appreciate the opportunity you just gave me because I learned things I never knew before but that will have to be a whole other thread!
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-03-04 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. No problem.
If you've got any questions about Dean you want to ask, just hit me up. ;-)
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