I don't go to church and here's why....

[BooScout]

I don't go to church because generally I have found a lot of hypocrisy in churches I have been to during my lifetime....and truth be told, religion in America (and in a lot of the rest of the world) and what it does to some people scares the caca out of me.

I have walked out of sermons where I didn't agree with the preaching of the minister. Some churches still won't allow women ministers or priests, let alone Bishops. Many churches are quite vocal in their opposition of a woman's right to chose or to even use birth control. When I know a church preaches messages of hate or exclusion I don't go...and anyone who attends a church for 20 years where such messages have been preached.........even in a bunch of sound bites got the message at some point and by continuing to attend, either agreed with the messages........or is a big fat hypocrite for not denying the messages vocally until they were caught with their religion around their ankles.

I don't buy Obama never heard the messages of hate. He heard them loud and clear and he can try and distance himself until the cows come home...by saying that's not what his campaign is all about. Bullshit.....he's either a hypocrit for continuing to attend the church of Wright or he's stupid as hell for not cluing in.

[anonymous171]

1. ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQkHBJS19F8

[peace13]

8. What have we become?

And why are so many of us proud of it. How can Americans be proud that we have killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, men, women and children without so much as a bat of the eye? Oh, some of us stand on street corners with our signs and call out this illegal war, but only a handful. When I watch this video I think, I wish my President would understand that war mongering is bad for our world. I don't care if Obama sat and listened to this man. There is a lesson to be learned and I know that Obama is intelligent enough to understand it.

[ingac70]

2. You haven't bothered to watch the entire sermons...

so fuck off with your FAUX News commentary.

[cliffordu]

3. Yep, that's all that needs to be said.

[hisownpetard]

12. Awwww, SNAP!

[cliffordu]

30. To quote the Virgin Mary.....

Come again???

[BooScout]

4. Lovely language......did you learn that in church?

:eyes:

[patrice]

27. F - U - C - K is a WORD. Words are NOT absolutes. They mean what the speaker

and the hearer think they mean. And what YOU are hearing is NOT what the speaker is meaning. Why do you CHOOSE to hear something about coitus when this person is saying he is ANGRY? Why do you choose to deny that this person's meaning IS a meaning, unless you're part of somesort of perverted minority of hearers who turn everything into sex? What is WRONG with you and those like you who can't seem to turn your attention away from what people do with their own bodies in the privacy of their own lives?

[HereSince1628]

5. This is sort of a side question...it the word 'church' a term that

is only used with respect to christianity?

[BooScout]

6. Nope......

Christianity, Islam, Buddism, Judism......any old House of God in any religion will do.

[Exilednight]

15. Never heard of a radical Buddhist who killed innocent people, unless you count setting themselves...

on fire in protest of illegal wars.

[HereSince1628]

19. A church is generally a building or an organization dedicated

to christianity. And what I am wondering is if any major group outside of christianity uses that world to describe their own buildings or organizations.

Which is to say, when we see the word 'church' is it always a semiotic that is linked in some way to christian culture?

[Obamanaut]

54. I think the answer to your question re 'church' is yes, just as

mosque or synagogue will conjure up the image of a certain culture.

[noel711]

7. I don't go to baseball games because I don't like the announcer..

He says things in a manner that I don't agree with, and I've found a lot
of lying hypocrisy in the teams and the calls in games I've been to in my lifetime, and truth be told, baseball in America (and the rest of the world), and what it does to many people
scares the caca out of me.

I have walked out of games where I didn't agree with the umpires, they sure make a lot of calls that I don't agree with.

I don't go to baseball games because they don't allow women to play with the teams.

I don't go to baseball games because many of them aren't inclusive: they aren't racially mixed, or they don't allow openly gay players on their teams.

I don't go to baseball games because the owners are millionaires who have benefitted financially from all the poor people who have paid high prices for tickets.

I don't go to baseball games because they make us stand up and salute the flag and sing the national anthem before the game begins... AND they make us stand up and sing "Take me Out to the Ball Game" during the 7th inning stretch when I can't stand the jingoism therein.

I don't go to baseball games because we all know all the players take steroids and they are all frickin' hypocrites when they tell the kids to play life straight.

I don't buy the fact that so many upstanding citizens attend these games and freely accept all the crap that these game entail, like its "The Great American Pasttime" and yet its all bull.... it's hypocrisy... or they're as stupid as hell for not cluing in.

[patrice]

22. Excellent points. Well presented without insulting another poster.

It is very good tactics to bounce the memes back to show the concepts from another perspective, WITHOUT attacking people. It shows how so many moral absolutists are actually moral relativists engaged in somekind of power struggle.

[noel711]

26. Thank you! I appreciate the feedback Patrice...

It's hard, in some contexts, not to flame.

[patrice]

29. I know what you mean about how hard it is not to FLAME.

I'm pretty angry right now about all of the attempted suicides amongst our Troops right now. Their level of despair must be horrendous.

:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

.......................


We need to look out for one another here on the DU to do the best we can NOT to make this country's situation any worse.

[noel711]

32. Argreed! Sadly, we've lost our compassion and sense of the...

comaraderie we had back in the days of the 60's anti-war movement...

Those were fabulous days where we shared everything, and would stand up for one another.

I think we've adopted the ways and means of the radical right...
"If you can't beat them, join them."

[Rockholm]

61. Great post!

[Rowdyboy]

9. I'm a white southern male in 100% agreement with Reverend Wright's sermon....

Read in its entirety, and taken in context there is not one objectionable statement. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge of this country's history and civil rights history in particular and sensitive to the world Jeremiah Wright faced as a young man can understand how he feels.

It is simply not a message of hate, unless one deliberately distorts the concepts he holds up for consideration.

[JerseygirlCT]

24. Unless we're talking about a hate of intolerance, or discrimination or

racism.

Or "pre-emptive" wars against innocent civilians.

You could argue there's some hate there for that.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

10. I hear that too much Pastorbating can make you go blind, BooScout. nt

[LWolf]

11. I have found the same in many churches.

Not all.

The worst offenders as far as intolerance and hypocrisy go, in my experience, tend to be those representing the Abrahamic religions.

[patrice]

13. Is it hateful to tell Americans that our actions have spiritual consequences?

Also: There's this little thing about reforming something from within and if you don't believe in that you need to consider not voting in our rather corrupt political system.

My basic point is, if there is something wrong with something that is otherwise good, forsaking that good thing for something else that I think is more "perfect" is an error, because perfection is an illusion and whatever I think is perfect is actually flawed in ways that I've chosen to ignore, because it is convenient for me to do so, or that "better" thing is flawed in ways that I (not being God) have arbitrarily weighed as less than the flaws in the thing that I left for this new "better" whatever.

Also, to abandon that which is flawed is a denial of Love, because you leave that which you said you loved to suffer and decline further because of its flaws, rather than staying committed to Love and help it in any way possible, to grow out of its flaws. And where I come from, Love is forever, so to say Love has ended, or changed somehow, or to deny Love by forsaking that which was "Loved", negates the ENTIRE concept of Love for anyone and anything.

Shopping for your church is common, because quite a bit of religion is business anymore. If a church says something such as "You are NOT Pro-Life if you are Pro-War", many people pretty much leave and go to the church that rewards them for selling their children into the military in the name of "patriotism" and getting all hot and bothered about "the Un-born" and, motivated by greed, either ignoring or actively working against the interests of the born until they become cannon fodder in Wars of Choice. Churches appear to be pretty much like cartels now, lots of business networking and boosterism. The products of these mutual admiration societies? . . . Do you think tens of thousands of Iraqis would be dead and millions displaced refugees if Iraqis were White "Christians"?

I know there are INDIVIDUAL exceptions to what I'm saying. Praise God! But the average religious mentality seems to be to seek the "opiate" of rewards and avoid challenges such as "Love your enemy" by shopping for churches the same way we shop for fashionable or comfortable shoes.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

14. Oh, and while you're busy Pastorbating:

You might want to clue yourself into your candidate's powerful and creepy prayer cult.

http://thecurrent.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/03/clinton-fellowship.php

[otohara]

16. Why Were They Messages of Hate?

and why are you're buying into sound-bytes journalism to form your opinions?

[patrice]

17. Perhaps your problem is the same as many other Americans "we" don't believe in Damnation anymore.

A significant and very powerful minority of us think we live in an eternal Cupcake Land.

[JoFerret]

57. Those are Obama voters though

.

[earthside]

18. "messages of hate"

What would those messages be?

Come on. Let's see the entire context and language from Rev. Wright's sermons that conveyed "messages of hate".

Not a sentence or two or three selected by Sean Hannity.

Then we'll see who is really "stupid as hell".

[newmajority]

20. Did you see Bill Moyers journal the other night?

If not, track down a copy. He spends the entire hour talking to Reverend Wright, and playing much larger portions of the "offending" sermons, which show the context of his statements. It's not what the whore media portrayed it as by any means.

You can't assume that all churches are filled with Pat Robertson/John Hagee/Rod Parsley/Doug Coe types. Need I remind you that Martin Luther King was an ordained minister? He certainly wasn't preaching right wing hate.

Whether or not you go to church is your business. I don't attend either, and hypocrisy has a lot to do with it, because I grew up in a Baptist church that worshipped Ronald Reagan more than Jesus Christ. But I don't apply that to ALL churches. I'd just rather sleep in on Sunday (it's a day of rest, isn't it?) and talk to God on my own schedule

[Liberal Veteran]

21. Thank you for sharing that with us, Sean.

:eyes:

[rodeodance]

44. you are looking FOOLISH for not even knowing the OP's name

[Liberal Veteran]

48. I guess I was just a little too subtle if it went over your head.

[rodeodance]

51. not at all---you are into name-callling also instead of discussing the content of the OP

[Liberal Veteran]

52. What's the point? The OP is regurgitating the usual rw talking talking points about Wright.

After all this time if the poster hasn't educated his/her self, far be it from me to try. You can't fix willful ignorance.

[JerseygirlCT]

23. What message of "hate" would that be? The one you seem

to think Rev. Wright preached?

Have you actually listened to the sermons?

And on the same topic, have you looked into "the Family"? Now, there's a lovely, loving group. Enough so that H. Clinton felt the need to be a part of it.

I'll take Rev. Wright and his anger at the wrongs this country has done any day over the poison spewed by the Family, thanks.

[no_hypocrisy]

25. Have you considered Ethical Culture or Unitarianism?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethical_Culture

[patrice]

31. I'll vouch for the Unitarians I know.

Cool folks, trying to grow closer to the truth.

:thumbsup:

[sellitman]

28. You have your opinion on this

You seem to like to equate his Pastors words to Obama. Guilt by association. I don't judge people that way. I judge them by their actions. For all the Church services you miss you might try common sense instead. Obama's words and deeds are what I judge him on. Try it you might find more truth in it then you imagine.

[Webster Green]

33. I haven't heard Wright say anything I disagree with..

He was critical of the policies and actions of our seriously fucked up country.

Good for him!:shrug:

[patrice]

34. Anybody in your Family ever do anything that you didn't agree with?

By your line of reasoning, you should punish them by denying them your caring relationship. What do you think a Family like that would be like? How functional would its members be?

[Forkboy]

35. I don't either, but I'm smart enough to get what Wright means.

People who don't get it either don't WANT to get it, or they see it as a political tool to wield against Obama. One way means you're stupid, the other sleazy.

[patrice]

39. Hi Forkboy! Thanks for the fire-breathing T-Rex!

What IS that in your avatar? A catepillar?

:hi:

[Forkboy]

42. The avatar and the little guy are both Godzilla.

The av is just a silhouette.

I have a soft spot for the Big G. :)

[patrice]

43. Glorious portrait of Big G!

Suitable for framing . . . maybe I'll upload it to my myspace.

See you later, ForkBoy.

[Forkboy]

60. I have hundreds of G pics that I've gathered.

I'm such a Godzilla geek it's not even funny. I have all 28 movies and I've even done my own G art. Someone get me some help. :silly:

[Bensthename]

36. I am turned off by Wright and will not vote for him. I'm now voting for Obama.

Obama is much more open mind and sees the world for how it is and doesn't play gotcha politics. He has my vote..

[DearAbby]

37. I go to Saint Mattress of the Springs

each and every Sunday.

Pastorbating is still wrong.

[bronxiteforever]

38. You find Hillary ok though -She calls herself Christian while seeking the blood of others

CLINTON: "You know, I have, ever since I've been a little girl, felt the presence of God in my life. And it has been a gift of grace that has, for me, been incredibly sustaining. But, really, ever since I was a child, I have felt the enveloping support and love of God and I have had the experiences on many, many occasions where I felt like the holy spirit was there with me as I made a journey."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0804/13/se.01.html

AMERICANS have learned to take with a grain of salt much of the rhetoric in a campaign like the current Democratic donnybrook between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. Still, there are some red lines that should never be crossed. Clinton did so Tuesday morning, the day of the Pennsylvania primary, when she told ABC's "Good Morning America" that, if she were president, she would "totally obliterate" Iran if Iran attacked Israel.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/04/27/hillary_strangelove/

So you only see hypocrisy in Obama?

Wasn't she the real and sincere Christian who voted for the Iraq war resolution when 41% of her Democratic colleagues thought it was immoral?

All I have to say for Clinton was said by Peter Gabriel "When I sleep at night I only dream in red"

[patrice]

41. I have been thinking about this from every direction since the day of the IWR vote:

I've tried every combination of reasons I could come up with and find myself at the conclusion that there is at least a 50:50 probability that Hillary supported the Iraq War Resolution BECAUSE she planned to run for pResident and was following advice that she needed to be able to say that she is "strong on defense". Yes, I know that 50:50 IS indeterminent, neither yes nor no for either point of view, but in this case, given what the RISK was, I'll say that 50:50 probability is an UNACCEPTABLE "benefit" for the price paid.

Especially since that benefit wasn't about what was good for Us, but what was good for candidate Hillary. Let me be clear; this isn't about HC voting FOR War. It's about HC supporting an at least even chance that thousands and thousands of INNOCENT people would die and millions of Iraqis made homeless, and generations of Americans to work harder and longer for less and less, while the danger of REVENGE terrorism increases more and more - She ACCEPTED AND SUPPORTED THESE POSSIBILITIES BECAUSE SHE PLANNED TO RUN FOR pRESIDENT.

I wanted to support her candidacy because she is a woman. I HONESTLY did and I've tried, but I cannot avoid the truth. If she's it, I will vote for her in order to protect SCOTUS, and I suppose that would be the perfect scenario for the Repuglicans that we put her in there and then abandon her, well, if that's what it comes down to, I guess I've got to say "so be it".

[bronxiteforever]

53. You sum up alot of my feelings about her

[patrice]

59. I was for Richardson first, then Edwards; it's taken me a long time

to focus my thoughts about what happened with Hillary.

I'm still a little surprised to be at a conclusion that says my best ability to calculate her reasoning only yeilds a 50:50 probability of being valid - BUT - unlike other 50:50 probabilities this one isn't indeterminent, because of the consequences (horrendous Death, Destruction and Despair) attached to one conclusion as compared to the other. I think the thing that made me see that was these recent stories about how high the suicide attempt rate is amongst returning Veterans.

The other thing I discovered about it was that, for me, it wasn't about whether she was FOR the Invasion and Occupation or Iraq or not, it is about whether she considered the CHANCE of millions of people suffering and tens of thousands dying an ACCEPTABLE RISK for the benefit she saw in supporting and accepting that possibility.

[newmajority]

56. Hillary must know that she's going to Hell

Jesus Christ said that there was one sin that would never be forgiven, and that was blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. So if she's claiming the Holy Spirit was with her when she voted for war in Iraq, or for cluster bombs, or for Kyl-Liberman, or when she said she would obliterate Iran, I'd say that's about as blasphemous as blasphemy gets.

Pack lots of ice, Hillary..... :evilgrin:

(All the Truthseekers out there will appreciate this one)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJM1P4gLv60

[The Wielding Truth]

40. I see it this way.

Many people use the church as an anchor. The players change, they go though radical and calm times, but their faith remains.The disagreements over certain sermons or allocations of some funds or the support of an odd outside charity can make you doubt attending, but you stay. Because you have faith that you will get more enlightenment or you have such deep roots that you pass the off remarks or different views,then you see them go by the way side, you see a greater good appear. That faith is the sustenance of many, if not all religions, and it has been for good and for bad. But it is how some establish there character and measure there spiritual being.

I see Barack as a man that is strengthened by the good he sees in the church(and the country) and tempered by the times when harsh words or strange decisions are made. When you can be among your family(or church family)and grow in common sense and justice, it is a character plus.I see this single mindedness and conviction to truth in this man.

We should be the people who can cut through the skewed accusations and consider the big decisions and entire work of a prominent person. It is not wise to judge a man by his attendance to a well respected church on the unexplained clipped words from a sermon which was in response to the pain felt after 9-11. This is petty division tactic used by those whose greatest desire is to further fracture our society and take advantage of our witless confusion to seat their candidate and continue to embezzle and suck our country dry.

[geiger]

45. ironically, the church he attends espouses little beyond peace and justice

and if you don't think American arrogance had anything to do with 9-11 attacks, you are sorely deluded. Personally, I think it's worth getting fired up now and again. Who do you want to believe? George Bush or a preacher who is sick and tired of bullshit? I'll forgive the preacher for any over-statements in moments of passion, not that he controls anything Obama thinks or says.

And, oh, by the way, I attended my local church of the same denomination today, and the message was: listen to your heart, not to other people that want to tell you how to think. edit, my interpretation: if you want to swallow what the talking heads say hook, line and sinker, you are doomed.

[patrice]

49. I think we should honestly listen to one another and then each of us form his/her own conscience.

Listening honestly to others is HARD; that's what is causing all of this flap about Rev. Wright.

Listening to one another is why DU is a good place.

[geiger]

50. you sum it up in a nutshell. your advice is wise. thank you.

[applegrove]

46. Try the UU. They are great. Open to all points of view and very welcoming.

[undeterred]

47. Condemning all churches is like condemning all white people

or all black people because of your experience with a few. I have been to many churches and been a student of religion. I agree with you that the conservative churches are wrong on many issues- they preach love your neighbor but they are intolerant of same sex couples.

But because I believe in God, I kept looking for churches that were different, and I found them. The United Church of Christ, of which Obama is a member, is an inclusive church which accepts homosexuals, ordains women, is not against abortion, and has a huge commitment to issues of social justice. I am a white person who has been to Obama's church and I can tell you that it was a joyful experience. People are committed to healing the black community and loving their neighbor, despite the fact that 'white America' doesn't seem to realize that great inequalities between the races still exist. Obama's pastor does not preach hate.

If you want to hate Obama or religion, focus on a few experiences and don't put them in context. The imagine that someone is judging you based on one conversation they had with you 10 years ago when you were angry and upset. Wouldn't you rather be 'judged' by being taken in context than by someone picking and choosing isolated pieces of your life?

Listen to everything Obama has to say and you will find no hate in this man. He loves this country.

[ccharles000]

55. I don't go to church because my preachers wife suggested an...

exorcism for being gay.

[cottonseed]

58. Thousands of people attended that Church.

I found the sound bite loop grating -- sure, but I couldn't help think that this church did a hell of a lot more good for the community and people of that community than the MSM, Republicans, and Clintons would have you believe.

If someone can point me to some source that the Chicago PD or even FBI had cited the church or surveilled them for inciting riots or being a menace to society, I'd be more inclined to believe there's an issue there, but a manufactured issue is something I won't find myself following.