The question that SLICK-HILLY fans just don't want to answer.

[RBInMaine]

Ah, so I sit here again this evening and see that the HillFANS are spamming the site with more
Obama-bashing. I see that at least one again brings up the Wright matter. OK, so I'll ask again the question not one her fans nor the corporate media accomplices will ask. Hillary says she would have walked out of the church on principle had Wright been the preacher. So then, my dear, why did you NOT walk away, ON PRINCIPLE, from your husband when you finally learned that he had AGAIN trashed his marriage vows with you by allowing a not-half-his-age intern give him oral sex a few steps from the Oval Office on multiple occasions. Yes, Mrs. Clinton, you could have invoked your deepest moral values and divorced him. Why didn't you? YOU CHOSE TO STAND BY YOUR MAN. Obviously because without that Clinton name and political backing you probably never would have been able to glide into the US Senate nor enjoy your current multi-millionaire status. Here's the point HIllFOLKS: Relationships are deep and complex. She could have left that relationship and been financially fine. Her child was well grown so big matter there, and plenty of money was there for her. Yet she STAYED. So I say to you Mrs. Clinton and to ALL HillFOLKS, DO NOT BE HYPOCRITICAL. Sen. Obama had a religious connection to Mr. Wright (an otherwise well renowned black preacher and former US Marine) and longstanding relationship with his church which has done great things for that community. We don't second guess marriage decisions, nor should we second guess one's very personal religious decisions. THIS IS A FAIR POINT AND A MORE THAN FAIR ANALOGY, AND I CHALLENGE ANY HILLARY SUPPORTER TO ANSWER ME.

[LakeSamish706]

1. The next argument would be that Rev. Wright was taken way out of context....

by both the Clinton campaign, the MSM and of course by our own Hillbotts here on DU. Maybe there are some things that Rev. Wright said that were inappropriate, but one needs to listen to a whole lot more of his dialog before passing judgment on him.

[2rth2pwr]

8. Why does Obama distance himself from those words?

Is he lying?

[LakeSamish706]

21. What words are you referring to? Obama has said exactly what I just said...

Rev. Wright may have said some inappropriate things... Thats the bottom line..... (Although personally, I don't think he did).

[2rth2pwr]

107. Do you feel that Obama "personally" thinks the same way you do about it?

[RBInMaine]

22. "Lying"? Oh please. Bill and Hill are addicted to it.

[SwampG8r]

105. look! if you make eye contact

it flings dookie

[patrice]

2. Interesting comparison.

Shopping for a church would, then, be like shopping for a different man when there's something wrong with your marriage.

The way I was raised, shopping for your church was bad form. Maybe we're in the particular hell we're in right now, because people have become too acustom to shopping for churches like fashionable or comfortable shoes.

[earthlover]

30. With an attitude like yours, the Reformation would never have occurred!

[noel711]

39. Earthlover, the Reformation had nothing to do with 'church shopping..'

In fact, Luther did not want to break with the Roman Catholic church,
he wanted the church to stop milking the people for money,
and to care for the people with the truth of the scripture.

The modern concept of 'church shopping' would grieve the good
Dr. Luther.

But, come to mention it, Luther seemed to have a lot in
common with Rev. Wright: the things he said infuriated
the powers that be, and even Luther had a price on his head
for saying things that could not be spoken out loud.

[patrice]

44. You're talking to a retired Catholic.

And I do admire what Martin Luther did, though eventually it did lead to an astounding amount of death and destruction, I guess I would have to say that was the fault of the people not ML's principles.

There's also this little thing about reforming something from within and if you don't believe in that you need to consider not voting in our rather corrupt political system.

The basic point is, if there is something wrong with something that is good, forsaking that good thing for something else that I think is more "perfect" is an error, because perfection is an illusion and whatever I think is perfect is flawed in ways that I'm just ignoring, because it is convenient for me to do so, or it is flawed in ways that I have arbitrarily weighed as less than the flaws in the thing that I left for this new "better" whatever.

Also, to abandon that which is flawed is a denial of Love, because you leave that which you said you loved to suffer from its flaws rather than stay committed to it to help it, however possible, to grow out of its flaws. And where I come from, Love is forever, so to say Love has ended, or changed somehow, or to deny Love by forsaking that which was "Loved", negates the ENTIRE concept of Love for anything or anyone.

[earthlover]

60. I don't see the necessity to belong to one particular variant of Christianity over another....

I have over my years belonged to several different churches, different denominations. I have also been a trumpet player and have participated in the services of many more churches. I don't bar hop, but you could in jest say I pray around!

I don't think the church is a static thing. If Jesus thought the church was a static thing, he would have simply gone to his temple instead of striking out on his own. Things change.

I don't see anything negative or wrong about someone trying out different churches to see which they find comfortable as their church home. In fact, I find it incredulous that anyone would want to discourage people from kicking the tires, checking out various churches, and seeing what is the one best attuned to their concept of serving God.

The church has in some quarters become a graven image. It has become idolatry. People are interested in the church more than God or God's message. There are millions of Sunday Christians.

I am shaking my head. Why on Earth disparage those who "shop around" for their church home? It isn't as if they are shopping around for the best prostitute or drug deal! I thought going to church was something that Christians respected?

I am sorry if I have offended you our your faith.

[patrice]

74. Well, I certainly didn't mean to offend you either.

I don't actually know of any absolutes. Of course there is some set of conditions under which one would "shop" for a different church.

I also have informed myself about many different religions.

The thing that prompted my remarks is the way that I see religion as a business anymore. If a church says something such as "You are NOT Pro-Life if you are Pro-War", many people pretty much leave and go to the church that rewards them for selling their children into the military in the name of "patriotism" and getting all hot and bothered about "the Un-born" and either ignoring or actively working against the interests of the born. Churches appear to be pretty much like cartels now, lots of business networking and boosterism. The products of these mutual admiration societies? . . . Do you think tens of thousands of Iraqis would be dead and millions displaced refugees if Iraqis were White "Christians"?

I know there are INDIVIDUAL exceptions to what I'm saying. Praise God! But the average mentality seems to be to seek the "opiate" of rewards and avoid challenges such as "Love your enemy."

[earthlover]

167. No offence taken. I enjoyed your post. Peace

The principles of loving your enemies, helping the poor, how you treat the least of ye you treat Jesus, seeking peace, turning the cheek, seeking spiritual instead of material riches, being humble, non-judgemental etc seem to be lost on many pop culture religions, particularly of the conservative stripe.

[leftofcool]

3. Divorce is a deep moral value?

Maybe in your world

[RBInMaine]

36. Ah, cute. Marriage vows though ARE a moral value, and she stayed when they were trashed.

[truedelphi]

48. There's also this to consider -

She prefers bashing Obama regarding Wright to bashing McCain over Hagee.

Don't people understand how it is far more de-moralizing to have Hagee denounce the gay community and the "sins of liberals" even going so far as to say that cities of gays and libersals should be destroyed by God, than to have a black minister decry the awfulness of the America of our collective, past but still recent, apartheid?

[bvar22]

62. !!!

:thumbsup:

Your post deserves an instant repeat.

"She <Hillary> prefers bashing Obama regarding Wright to bashing McCain over Hagee.

Don't people understand how it is far more de-moralizing to have Hagee denounce the gay community and the "sins of liberals" even going so far as to say that cities of gays and libersals should be destroyed by God, than to have a black minister decry the awfulness of the America of our collective, past but still recent, apartheid?"

---DU member truedelphi

[truedelphi]

165. Oh Shucks, thank you! n/t

[libbygurl]

116. It's still the primaries, not the GE, isn't it?

[northzax]

144. shhh

there vill be no campaigning against the chosen one. Don't ask why anyone thinks it's a good idea to give mccain a free preview of what's coming. But we know that obama won't criticize mccain, it's not stylish to be so 'divisive' so they want Hillary to now, as if she's already won. It doesn't make a lot of sense, really.

[2rth2pwr]

4. The two situations are not analogous. You don't take vows to stay with

a church through good times and bad.

c'mon now.

[Johnny__Motown]

10. Loyalty.. c'mon now.. A Clinton supporter not understanding loyalty? That is all they have now

misplaced loyalty

[RBInMaine]

11. HOGWASH !! Serial Adultery is AMPLE justifcation for divorce. Stop hedging !

[Toucano]

66. Do you have any idea how many people stay married after one or both

have an adulterous relationship?

It's not that uncommon.

It's the Republicans that want to make the choices for other people's personal lives, not Democrats.

[rodeodance]

97. Yes, it is the Repugs who nose into people's private lives--The OP is just another RW thug.

[RBInMaine]

126. There are those who don't know anything. I wonder if you suspect anything.

[rodeodance]

146. yawn.

[SwampG8r]

108. and how many stay

when one party of the marriage continuously engages in such behaviour?

[Toucano]

162. Millions?

Not everyone considers monogamy an integral part of marriage.



Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

[libbygurl]

148. Basically, you wanted Hillary to leave Bill.

But you didn't want BO to leave JW?

Eeeh, I'm totally confused about your point(s) here anymore. Your goal posts keep moving, I'm getting dizzy trying to follow them.

Good night.

[scheming daemons]

79. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK BAPTISM IS?

Sheesh...

[2rth2pwr]

103. Your not taking an oath to stay with your Pastor, ya goof.

[libbygurl]

119. That's acceptance into a particular religious denomination, not a specific church building with a -

specific priest/preacher. So if you move to a different city/state, you gotta get baptised again?

[brindis_desala]

104. you are clearly not knowledgeable about faith

refer to the words of Hillary's own pastor. A church is a community, far more than its pastor.

[2rth2pwr]

106. You can be Catholic, Methodist, Baptist or whatever and you are free to change churches to find a

a better Pastor in your same faith.

Are people really this clueless about religion here?

[grasswire]

5. I guess she believes in the Christian principle of redemption..

...and the biblical lessons of forgiveness, grace, and mercy.

[RBInMaine]

16. Fine. Then "Judge not lest ye be judged," "Love thine enemy," and "FORGIVE" Wright.

[earthlover]

33. the Christian principle of redemption...and the biblical lessons of forgiveness, grace, and mercy.

Hillary sums that all very well: obliterate Iran!

Lots of grace and mercy to the Iranina women and children there.

[RBInMaine]

6. It's AWFUL ! I have never seen a man so harrassed by the words of SOMEONE ELSE ! An MSM hitjob !

It's brutally unfair, and all about corporate media hype and spin for a pro-Hillary benefit.

[mcctatas]

7. Both issues; Hillary's marriage and Obama's pastor...

are completely irrelevant. If my husband cheated, chances are I'd forgive him, AND, as a Catholic, there are things I have heard my priest say in Church that I strongly and deeply disagree with, but I didn't stop going to church either...(at least not because of that)...

[RBInMaine]

13. With all respect, the marriage issue is very fair given their attacks over Wright.

[mcctatas]

17. my point is that NEITHER issue is fair, instead of an ever

escalating tit for tat, I think we should be trying to show people why Rev. Wright is a non-issue. Of course, when so many Hillary supporters are willing to digest FOX news vomit and re-regurgitate it as fact, makes it kind of impossible at times!

[RBInMaine]

24. As long as Bill, Hill, the MSM, Rush and Co. and the R's are around, it WILL be an issue.

[SwampG8r]

109. what if he cheated and cheated and cheated ?

would you still forgive ?

[libbygurl]

123. Why is that such a concern of yours?

[mcctatas]

155. I don't know, but I do know that it would not be a reflection of poor

character on my part if I chose to do so, I can think of reasons for staying and leaving. The larger point is, there is so much legitimate bullshit that Hillary has put out there to be debunked, we do a dis-service to Obama to focus on peripheral twaddle...

[SwampG8r]

158. agreed

can i use twaddle thats a great word
someone was pushing piffle earlier but twaddle is better

[mcctatas]

160. twaddle is far superior to piffle...

and much more fun to say! Maybe if we both use it enough, it will sweep the nation! :hi:

[SwampG8r]

161. do you think so?

or are you just feeding me a pile of twaddle?

[mcctatas]

166. I believe the correct terms would be...

a pile of piffle and a truckload of twaddle;)

[rodeodance]

156. its none of your frickin business. You are just like the RW--digging into people's private lives.

[SwampG8r]

159. i just wonder

when she finally does admit the fact that its over for her will you have a complete breakdown or will you retain some functionality?

[QC]

9. This place becomes more like Freak Republic every day. n/t

[RBInMaine]

12. "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen."

[QC]

14. A Harry S. Truman fan, eh?

I wonder what Truman would think of a Democrat who spends all his time attacking Democrats using Republican talking points?

[SammyWinstonJack]

18. ...

:thumbsup:

[QC]

27. It's enough to make one wonder, isn't it? n/t

[RBInMaine]

20. That is exactly what I have been wondering about the Clintons and their fans.

[SwampG8r]

110. he would think

what the hell is wrong with those clintons anyways?

[rodeodance]

95. You are a BHO fan who is OBSESSED WITH Bill Clinton's penis--just like the RW was/is!!

[SwampG8r]

111. man you pull

bills penis out more than he does
and this isnt about the clenis its about the clintoris

[rodeodance]

149. i post it inrespons to obama fans who are obsesseed with bills penis.

[RBInMaine]

125. And you have just announced how utterly numb a responder can be.

[rodeodance]

139. still obsessed over a another woman's private marriage life--that i you.

[Darth_Kitten]

15. No, they don't want to answer it, and I say, good for them!

Why should they? :shrug: People can't be in full throttle fighting mode, they are TIRED. Everyone is TIRED.

Are relationships really deep and complex? I would never have known that.

[RBInMaine]

19. Fine, then the Clintons need to stop the character assassination and cheap tactics.

[Darth_Kitten]

25. Love the Holier than Thou attitude coming from the Obama camp.......

butter wouldn't melt in their mouths, eh?

[RBInMaine]

28. Again, attack me but don't SPECIFICALLY address why Hillary should have stayed with Bill even though

he cheated on her MULTIPLE times. I mean, where are "feminists" here who supposedly abhor "standing by your cheating man"??? Look, again the point is, DON'T SECOND GUESS OBAMA'S DECISION WHEN YOU STAYED WITH A SERIAL CHEATER. These are complex personal matters. I don't care if she stayed. That's her business. And it is Obama's business as far as why he stayed in that church. The Clintons are attacking Obama on a personal matter. Do that, and tit for tat.

[TK421]

72. You know what? That is the same talking point the right wing used against Bill Clinton

during his presidency, the Monica Lewinsky spew and the public ate it up back then...and many Democrats who viewed this crap saw it for what it was....a smear against a Democratic President...and it worked.

Do you remember how many people back then came out and pretty much stated that they didn't give a shit about a blow-job in the oval office? Let's not get into Kennedy....presidents are FAR from saints....

The fact that Bill Clintons affair has become the right wing talking point on THIS board, and that sickens me!


Edited to add: I didn't give a DAMN if the president had a blow-job....who hasn't? and is it truly any of my business? FUCK NO! Back when this was an issue, Democrats were crying out against this stupid bullshit...and now, here in the primaries it surfaces YET AGAIN...AGAINST HILLARY!

[RBInMaine]

127. Just the point. Marital decisions are deeply personal as are religious ones. If HillFOLKS don't

like this heat, then stay out of Obama's religious decisions. These are very personal matters. If they can tacitly attack Obama on this, then they open themselves up to this retort. Yes, it's FAIR GAME.

[northzax]

150. maybe she loves him?

seems reasonable to me. Maybe they have an arrangement? Maybe she doesn't like sucking dick and lets him outsource. Heck, maybe she stayed to increase her chances of becoming presdent? As far as I know, she's never really addressed it. are you to judge why any two people choose to continue a marriage? Who am I? Judge her against your own moral code, if you wish. I choose not to.

[Saturday]

23. You can't even compare the 2. nt

[RBInMaine]

26. Why? Tell me, why? Go into detail. Defend Hillary on why she stayed. Dare ya.

[Saturday]

35. When did you stop beating your wife?

You can not compare why Hillary decided to stay in a marriage and why Obama sat in the pews for 20 years. Hillary took an oath of marriage, Obama didn't take one to Wright.

[RBInMaine]

41. Oh, the "wife beater" card. Puh-lease. Hillary stayed with a SERIAL adulterer. That gives every

justification to leave. THIS IS A VERY FAIR COMPARISON. Yes, he sat in the pews (off and on) for 20 years. It is a great church and congregation that has done great things for that community, and it was led by a guy who did have some wrong attitudes on some matters, but you can't equate the entire church and all it does with the pastor. And remember, this is a black church where style is very different. Is EVERYONE who has been a member of that church for years a bad person because Wright said a few
offbase things on a few occasions? Get real and get into context.

[groovytang]

29. SHAME ON YOU! HILLARY IS A GOOD DEM.

thumbs down

[RBInMaine]

32. AND SO IS OBAMA !! DO SHAME ON BILL AND HILLARY AND THEIR MEAN CAMPAIGN !!

[groovytang]

37. BOO! HISS! SHAME ON YOU!

[RBInMaine]

42. NO, SHAME ON YOU AND THE ROTTEN HILLARY CAMPAIGN TACTICS !

[groovytang]

46. HILL HAS RUN A GOOD CAMPAIGN -- ABOVEBOARD, HONEST

BO has manufactured outrage..over Bill, another good Dem leading the country while BO was in the hood. SHAME ON HIM!

[RBInMaine]

128. Have you been inhaling? Not sure what planet you've been on.

[groovytang]

31. I hate matthews

[Frances]

34. Look, Obama is our likely nominee

So the best thing we Dems can do is to stop talking about Hillary at all.

We should act like the nomination is a sure thing and attack McCain.

That's the best way to help Obama win the general, IMO.

[RBInMaine]

38. Nope, it's fight her crap until she gives it up, and don't hold your breath.

[Frances]

164. Well, if you want to see McCain in the White House,

then keep this attitude.

[grasswire]

40. I thought Skinner ruled out stupid nicknames for candidates?

Where are you, mods?

Hm?

[RBInMaine]

43. Do we also get to throw out ObamaBots??

[grasswire]

47. Be my guest

Throw them all out.

[RBInMaine]

49. Oops, guess I should have put the term in " " for you. Tsk tsk.

[grasswire]

52. Ha. Gotcha. (eom)

[RBInMaine]

58. And get this one too: YUP, I'll vote for Hillary if she wins in the end. Doubt

it happen, but I'll even work for her locally if she does (as I do for all Dem candidates locally each cycle as a local party committee official). If she does get it, she'd be foolish not to put Obama on the ticket because she needs his base voters bigtime (up-scalers, latte-ers, men, city folk, new voters, young voters, MoveOn Voters, black voters.). She will also need his organizational and money making machine, and his array of campaign mgt talent. Meantime, while Obama and his supporters would love to have a truly civil campaign on the real issues, the Clintons say no to that, so we're left with a nice hearty primary duke-out and my gloves are off BIGTIME.

[truedelphi]

45. U said this: Yes, Mrs. Clinton, you could have invoked your deepest moral values and divorced him.

The Clintons are all about do as I say, not do as I do.

[RBInMaine]

50. Right, meaning she could have invoked the moral value of HONORING MARRIAGE VOWS and left him.

[cbayer]

51. Here is a great article on the Clintons.

I strongly encourage you to read it. I found it fascinating.

http://www.slate.com/id/2188751/

I have never taken the position that Obama should have left his church or his pastor. The fact that he did not, despite knowing how much of a political liability he might be, actually is a positive in my mind and a testament to how complex these kinds of relationships are.

BTW, is there some reason you are so hostile and aggressive in your tone? Could you not have asked this question in a more civil way?

[RBInMaine]

54. I'm happy as a clam. This is blog politics, friend. Team-Hill has been awful and this is hardball.

I've been in the local political game awhile now. It's a tough world that many don't have the stomach for. Rule # 1, put on your toughest skin in this game. Rule #2, if your guy or gal doesn't win, take the next best choice if you can, and if you can't, deal with it. I was an Edwards fan and wish we'd had an Edwards/Obama dream ticket in the end. He lost, so Obama is now it. If Hillary somehow gets it in the end, I'll hope she puts Obama on the ticket and will both vote and work locally for her because the alternative is McCain and I'd see myself in hell before that day.
Meantime, let's have a good hearty primary duke out. We'll kiss and make up in the end and enroll and crapload of new voters in the process.

[cbayer]

61. That's a reasonable and civil response.

This board, however, is not a level playing field in that the number of Obama supporters far outweigh the Clinton supporters. I know politics can be rough. I have been in politics. I do not, however, consider bullying and abusing to be acceptable even in this game.

You were asking a very reasonable question, IMO, but your tone was so hostile that I doubt you will get many meaningful responses. Your candidate does not behave in this way and it is his staying above the fray that makes him a very appealing candidate for many.

[RBInMaine]

67. It's the difference between the "generals" and the "sergeants".

Obama is the general. I am a poltical "sergeant". I work the front lines locally developing strategy and organizing to jam it on the ground to the opposition by outworking them. I am VERY civil in person to anyone who opposes me as long as that person is civil in turn. But start going after me, and out come the six-shooters. This is politics my friend. Politics is very rough and tumble. Team Hillary knows it and is going for my guy's jugular. Not gonna happen on my watch if I can help it. And my guy's tough enough. He's been blasting McCain and has fired back at Hillary. He'll get tougher. This is life and death to the Clintons. And Dems have been far too wimpy with the R's. (I WILL give the Clintons due credit for being tough fighters.) It seems a number of folks have responded well enough to my post. I never expected the Hillary people to actually answer forthrightly no matter how nicely it was worded. Hey, sorry pal but Hillary is indeed SLICK because she spins, morphs, and stretches the truth like a kid stretching bubble gum. So she gets the tag.
Again, if in the end she's atop the ticket, I'll work for her and start blasting away at McCain.

[truedelphi]

56. Thanks for the citation. Ya know something,

While cleaning out boxes of stuff in the garage I recently came across a People magazine from the year 1994.

It featured Jennifer Flowers and her attack on Bill Clinton, for his alleged assault on her.

All I could think while leafing through the maghazine was how wonderully simple and sweet our society was then. The biggest issue on our minds was this Flowers scandal.

No endless war, no broken New Orleans, no financial meltdown about to implode into a Depression.

Just a sane and safe and rather absurdly quaintly "happy Americana" that I experienced by reading thorough the zine.

[RBInMaine]

59. I personally though Flowers was cute as hell and would have been a great choice had he been SINGLE.

He did finally admit to sleeping with her "once" during his impeachment mess. Ah c'mon Bill, just once??

[cbayer]

65. You are right.

I think the disastrous state of our Union is driving a lot the passion in this primary race. Similar in many ways to 1968.

I also miss the good old days when we had a President threatened with impeachment because of a sexual mis-step. Now we have a war criminal and no threat of impeachment. It's all upside down.

[patrice]

82. Thanks for saying something that was on "the tip of my brain",

and if that makes me a pointy head, I guess I'll just have to live with it ;)

"The fact that he did not, despite knowing how much of a political liability he might be, actually is a positive in my mind ...."

It shows the strength to deal with that with which you disagree without letting it turn you into what it is.

[cbayer]

92. That happens to me all the time.

I love it when someone says what I was trying to think! lol.

[emilyg]

53. How's slick Barry tonight?

[RBInMaine]

55. Hello Tony Snow. Didn't know you were on this blog.

[emilyg]

57. You liked the way the OP was worded?

[rug]

63. You want people on an internet board to discuss someone else's marriage?

Ok, how's yours?

[RBInMaine]

68. #1, mine's great. #2, if we can blast away at a man's religious decisions, this is fair game.

[rug]

69. No, it isn't. Now let's hear more about #1.

[RBInMaine]

73. Explain why it isn't. As to my #1, the vows are solid on both sides. Bet you wish you could say the

same for Bill and Hill. So enough of my #1. My overarching point was about being attacked for very personal decisions concerning complex relationships (in Obama's case his relationship to his minister and church and its congregation). If that is fair game, so are other complex relationships. It's entirely fair, and it burns up the Hill Fans to have to face the fire and deal with it.

[rug]

78. Well, for one thing I doubt Bill was moaning God Damn America when he was with Monica.

[RBInMaine]

85. OK, let's have fun. I'll give you that. It was indeed probably "GOD BLESS AMERICA" ! Ha.

[SwampG8r]

113. im sure he was moaning tho

[Toucano]

64. A marriage is between two people.

What happens in that marriage is no one else's business. Maybe she stayed because she loves him and wants to be married to him.?

I'm not a Hill fan, and I don't think Obama should have been required to walk out on any sermon or speech just because it contained ideas he didn't agree with.

But your analogy is not fair or correct.

A relationship with a husband is not comparable to a relationship with a minister.

[RBInMaine]

70. There was a special relationship with an entire congregation. And entire community. BUT, the larger

point was about the complexity of relationships. If one side is going to attack someone given such complexity, then it can be FAIRLY extrapolated to the other side's personal decisions concerning deep personal relationships. It is an ENTIRELY FAIR analogy in the abstract. Under the law there are few privileged communications. Three of them in most cases are: between spouses, between client and attorney, and between parishioner and minister. There are reasons for them given the nature of such relationships.

[SwampG8r]

114. actually in christianity it is

the bible said that the relationship between man and church is as between husband and wife

[SwampG8r]

118. in christianity it is

the bible said that the relationship between man and church is as between husband and wife
And Jesus said to them, "Can the friends of the bridegroom (Jesus) mourn as long as the bridegroom is with them? (Mt 9.15a)

and here
I have espoused you (the True Church) to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin (a bride) to Christ. (2 Cor 11.2b, KJV)
and here
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

so actually in christianity you are married to the church through baptism

[Dinger]

71. This Is What I Would Have Done:

Let me preface this by saying that me and my mom are both Hillary Clinton supporters. She watched Rev. Wright on Bill Moyers last night. I haven't seen the interview yet. She said he seemed sensible, and I think she liked him. I don't think she agreed with everything he said though. I see that it replays tomorrow morning, and I plan to watch it.
Now, if I would have been in church "that day," I might have left, but I would have talked to the reverend later on about how I felt, but I probably would have come back. I am a "church-goer", and I have had pastors I didn't like, but I don't go to church for the person doing the preaching. My reasons are very personal. I'm a little uncomfortable posting about this here, but I'm just giving my opinion, and that's all it is.

[RBInMaine]

75. It's a good opinion. As I understand it, Obama did express some issue with some of his sermons in

past (anyone may correct me if I'm wrong). He has said he knew that this "old school" black preacher in this black church (where style and substance can be very different from other churches) was prone to occasional controversial statements. He stayed because he knew the whole person, and because he was very connected to the larger congregations as well and the community. Churches are very much like families. He became very connected to that church community. It was his personal decisions to stay. I don't begrudge him it, and neither should the Clintons nor anyone else.

PS: If Hillary becomes the nominee, I'll support her. NOT HAPPY at all with her current tactics against Obama, but I'll support her.

[DB1]

You should ask her what she disageed with. I could not find anything .....

to disagree with him on, I would embrace him as my pastor, ( if I wanted one.)

[rodeodance]

76. Her marriage is her business. Not yours.

[RBInMaine]

81. And Obama's religious matters are HIS, and NO ONE ELSE'S INCLUDING HILLARY'S !!

[rodeodance]

93. Spreading hate and divisiveness in America concerns us all.

[scheming daemons]

83. And the church he attends is HIS business. Not yours.

[rodeodance]

94. he can attend any church he wants. Stop ASSuming you know what I think --you look foolish

[rodeodance]

77. is that all your got. Making moral judgments on her marriage!! gawd you make me sick!

[RBInMaine]

80. But it's fine for Hillary to make moral judgments on Obama's religious decisions?? BE FAIR NOW.

[patrice]

87. Good Work RBinMaine! Bounce the memes back without insulting them.

You're showing what the concepts mean from the other perspective. Very good tactics.

:hi:

[rodeodance]

90. The RW is preoccupied with the private lives of others--You are RW!!

[RBInMaine]

129. And you don't know shit.

[RBInMaine]

84. And no, I have MUCH MUCH MORE, and have posted PLENTY of other problems with Hillary and her tactics

[patrice]

102. She has received VERY bad advice. nt

[MethuenProgressive]

86. ALL CAPS DONT TURN A CRAP OP INTO CHEESE

"I have instructed all my devoted listeners to call Senator Clinton "SlickHilly" while they type into the Internet from their mother's basements." - Rush Limbaugh

[RBInMaine]

88. "Slick" because she is, not because of Rush. So avoid my point and attack. Typical.

[MethuenProgressive]

89. You hate her and are obsessed with her marriage. That's not a "point," its a symptom.

Perhaps the government has injected you with some secret poison, as Pastor GOD DAMN AMERICA Wright contends they did when they invented AIDS to commit genocide on people of color?

[rodeodance]

91. The OP reminds me of a RW Religious fanatic.--something that Democratics used to diss--not

take on their tactics of nosing into people's private lives!

[RBInMaine]

117. This is a political blog. Please re-adjust your meds.

[libbygurl]

122. Discussing someone's decision to stay in a marriage is politics now? Well, blow me down.

[RBInMaine]

131. As long as attacking a man over his religion is, you're damn right it is.

[libbygurl]

137. What? What book of logic did you study ? You're not making sense at all here.

What's the relationship between attacking a man over his religion and discussing someone's marriage?

And please clarify - did BO believe the same thing JW did, or did he not? Did BO hear those inflammatory speeches (thus, they're part of 'his religion', as you say) or did he not (as BO said at one point)? I am mighty confused about what he did or didn't hear, if he did or didn't agree with them, or whatever. BO kept changing his story.

[rodeodance]

142. You really are a LIER--or just stupid. **PRODUCED THAT EVIDENCE that she

has EVER attached him over his religion!!

[RBInMaine]

132. Careful about "blow me down". You may be channeling Bill.

[libbygurl]

140. Look, you're embarrassing yourself with this obsession of yours with Bill's sex life.

[rodeodance]

96. Slick Barry is a proven LIER.

[RBInMaine]

120. Once again, the HillFANS attack but avoid the overarching point. TYPICAL.

[okasha]

134. Your CAPSLOCK APPEA RS TO BE STUCK

n/t

[rodeodance]

98. ha ha--love it---the OP is following Rush Limpo's instructions. te he

[napi21]

99. Apples and oranges agrument. One is personal and the decision

must be made one on one between her and Bill. The other is a public speech "damning America". I listened to Rev. Wright's entire speech and he had a valid point. I'm ashamed of what my Country has done in the past several years too, thus I guess I would be judged anti American too.

Part of the problem is the media taking the 30 second bite from his speach. but Rev. Wright could have phrased it differently too. H just as easily could have said "God Bless America, but America has been WRONG!"

I sure can't and won't try to tell Rev. Wright what to do or say, but in the days of Youtube, all speakers need to think about how a partial sentence of something they say will be used against them or their friends. I HATE THAT, but I have no idea how to change it either.

[RBInMaine]

121. You miss the point entirely. It is about relationships complexities, NOT a speech vs. a marriage.

[libbygurl]

145. You can argue till the cows come home, but your starting premises are very, very shaky -

- and your conclusions are thus logically invalid. Please review basic rules of logic.

[rodeodance]

151. Faulty analogy, faulty premis -therefore you have no argument.

[ileus]

100. Simple, she was okay with it....let someone else do the dirty work.

It's that easy....Monica was doing what she didn't have/want to. I'm sure it was a deal they'd come to many, many years ago, but of course she had to act like she cared when the truth come to light.

50 states in 2008....there I answered your Q.

[maddiejoan]

101. So your point is what?

That Obama is and has always been in love with Rev. Wright?

okay.

[libbygurl]

115. Hmmm...maybe you're on to something there, maddie! Yup, follows OP's logic. nt

[okasha]

133. ZOMG!!!!

Miss Donnie is going to be crushed!

[libbygurl]

141. Ruh-roh! nt

[libbygurl]

112. Why, was BO married to Jeremy Wright, too? So is BO standing or not standing by his man?

Should Jackie O have left JFK? Ethel left RFK? Eleanor left FDR? Did these strong women not leave their marriages because they had political ambitions, had no money?

The only half-worthwhile statement you've written is this: 'We don't second guess marriage decisions...'.

[RBInMaine]

124. Exactly ! They stood by their men, and Obama stood by his church. SO DON'T ATTACK HIM FOR IT !

[okasha]

130. Maybe you don't pay any more attention to yourself than anyone else does--

and that would be sensible of you--but in case you haven't noticed, you're attacking Hillary for remaining in her marriage.

Not that logic is your strong suit.

[RBInMaine]

136. Wrong. Entirely wrong. I am attacking her and her team for attacking Obama for his religious

decision. I wish I had flip charts for you, maybe then it would become clearer. Hillary has on more than one occasion very attacked Obama's decision to stay with his church. She piled on to the corporate media and Rush type attacks on this matter to score political points.
When she does this, it is ENTIRELY fair to question her decision to remain with her serial adulterer spouse (whom I voted for twice by the way). In each case, we have very complex relationship dynamics playing into why each stayed. It is a completely fair comparison given that one's church becomes very much like one's second family. It is a deeply powerful relationship and connection.
I am NOT attacking Hillary for her decision to stay with Bill. It's a very personal matter. I am telling her and her team not to pile on to the Wright attack line for the very same reason. Get it now?

[libbygurl]

138. You're implying that Hillary's marriage to Bill is equivalent to BO's relationship to JW.

They are NOT equivalent. Therein lies the fallacy of your argument - you're drawing an analogy between apples and oranges. Are they the same fruits? Do they look alike, taste alike?

Get it now? If you still don't, gotta agree with okasha at last: logic isn't your strong suit. And this is the last post I'll waste on trying to explain the fallacious logic you use here.

[RBInMaine]

147. PLEASE TRY TO UNDERSTAND CORRECTLY SOMETIME THIS YEAR.

See my reply below and hopefully you'll finally get it.

[rodeodance]

157. too bad the state of Maine has an Internet.

[libbygurl]

135. You didn't get my point. Let me say it again, slowly this time...

You're saying that BO is right to stay with JW because their relationship is like that between Hillary and Bill.

Come again? How can you compare the Clinton marriage to the Wright-BO relationship when they are not equivalent?

Hillary and Bill had vows they took in that marriage, which are more binding and serious than the loose pastor-congregant relationship between JW and BO! BO has no such vows similar to those in a marriage binding him to stay with JW.

Unless, of course, as maddiejoan has suggested just upthread, BO and JW ran away and got married, thus cementing their relationship with some binding vows.

Snort.

[RBInMaine]

143. No. No. I am saying that one's religion/one's church/one's congregation/one's pastor

in the aggregate constitute a deep-seeded and very powerful set up relationships. One's religious affiliation is more than just the pastor, although he is a large piece. To score political points, she said she would have left the church on principle. My point is that in one of her deeply personal relationships, her spousal relationship, she chose to stay in the face of serial adultery (and it was serial given it occurred over a long time and the multiple encounters with Monica, Flowers, and others at least alledged). In each case we have a set of deep relational complexities that should be second guessed by NO ONE, especially to score political points. Hillary was ignorant of Obama's church, and like McCain (who in this instance I will say did something honorable) should have been decent enough to say that Obama should not be blamed for Wright's statements nor judged by them. She has not. She has attempted to score points on the coattails of this thing. It's shameful, and every Hillary supporter should reject it. Clearer now?

[okasha]

152. Maybe we're asking the wrong question here.

Since you seem to be convinced that one's relationship with one's pastor is comparable to marriage--uhm--how are you and your pastor getting along? Will you be heading down to Mass. or opting for Canada?

[Swamp Rat]

153. All's fair in love and war.......... and politics.

Hilbo Balboa drew first blood. :D

[FrenchieCat]

154. People don't generally pick a church because of the pastor......

Usually, they pick a church for a variety of reasons; the congregation, the work the church is doing, the music, the actual church physical atmospher (like no AC in the building where it is hot in the summer will not attract as many members), the largeness or the smallness of the church, etc..

A husband is chosen much in the same way, as there are different aspects of a person that adding the negatives with the positives provides a net gain or loss.

Hillary should not have said that one picks a church but not a family member, because she did, indeed, pick her spouse.

She was just doing what she always do, spinning like a top in order to have a negative get out there about Obama. She was indeed pastorbaiting!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

163. Comparing The Two As If They Contain Similar Premise Is One Of The Dumbest Things I've Seen.

It's stretching at its finest. Quite dumb really.