Why should Hillary GIVE the nomination to Obama?

[GoldieAZ49]

Only 140 total delegates separate them, that included the Supers which can and will change until the convention. Even the "pledged" delegates can change their votes.

Why doesn't Obama GIVE the nomination to Hillary?



The race isn't over, demanding one or the other candidate drops out defeats the democratic process that I thought we all held dear.


Let them finish the primary, make their case to the Super Delegates. Whoever wins then, and only then, can make the case for the party uniting behind them.

Short of that the party will remain divided and hard feelings on both sides that may be just what will elect the republican.



Maddy made a good point in another thread, our primary has the country and the world watching and considering our position, this is a GOOD thing! Let us show them that we are not afraid of the democratic process just because we have primary fatigue.

[merh]

1. Because he has beaten her

it's no give away -

[MonkeyFunk]

12. No

he's ahead at the moment. He hasn't won.

[newmajority]

41. At the moment? And at which moment will Hillary be ahead?

Answer: she won't be.

She might well win PA. The Rendell machine has guaranteed it, just like Jeb guaranteed Florida in 2000, and Blackwell guaranteed Ohio in 2004. She might even get enough legitimate votes on top of what Rendell and Limbaugh do. It doesn't matter. She'll never make up the delegate gap, and the supers aren't going to sacrifice their own political careers just to extend the life of the DLC, at the expense of perpetual Repuke majorities and a Grandpa McLoon presidency. :scared:

[merh]

45. She can't overcome his lead

and her campaign is without funds necessary to keep this up - will she pay her campaign debts - have you been raising money to help her do that? That's what you would working toward, paying off debts.

[Bonobo]

46. Answer #41.

You probably won't/can't though.

[MonkeyFunk]

64. I simply stated that he hasn't won

and that is the truth.

It is very likely that whoever wins will do so with superdelegates. Until one has 2025, there is no winner.

[mckeown1128]

76. So do you think the SDs should back up the voter results...

or overturn the democratic process and support Hillary?

[MonkeyFunk]

92. It's not at all clear

that the pledged delegate count will reflect the will of democratic voters.

[mckeown1128]

94. Maybe you should get out a calculator and hit the numbers...

it is such a miniscule chance that she will end up ahead in the vote counts.. and I suspect that after tomorrow there will be enough proof too show that she CAN'T catch up in the vote totals. (even if you want to wrongly count MI and FL in the totals...which you shouldn't)

[rox63]

56. She has never been ahead in either delegates or popular vote throughout this campaign

Mighty long moment there. :eyes:

[ElsewheresDaughter]

18. No he has not

[Hugabear]

24. He IS beating her in just about every category

Delegates won

States won

Money raised

The only way for Hillary to overtake Obama at this point is for her to rack up huge victories in every single primary from here on out. Simply beating him in every remaining primary won't do it - she has to win by huge margins.

[GoldieAZ49]

31. WOW did Obama get to 2024 delegates over the weekend? I missed it!!

short of that, he hasn't won anything

[LSK]

40. I didnt know Clinton had 2024 delegates to GIVE AWAY

:eyes:

[GoldieAZ49]

43. She doesn't, if she drops out he is the nominee

please try to follow logic, neither has won, neither can win with pledged delegates alone. Dropping out is giving the nomination to the competitor

[LSK]

71. so did Edwards, Biden, Dodd, Richardson, Kucinich, Gravel give it to him??

How come they gave it away???

Maybe because there comes a point when you can no longer get the required delegates and you stop wasting everyones time.

They were capable of making that decision, perhaps she will come Wednesday.

[GoldieAZ49]

99. Obama can not get the required delegates

so using your logic he should stop wasting everyones time, correct?


Edwards, Biden, Dodd, Richardson, Kucinich, Gravel could not get enough votes to be competitive.

Hillary and Obama could.

[yourguide]

2. Oh stop.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

SHE

CAN

NOT

WIN!


It's over, yet somehow the fat lady continues to sing and sing and sing.

[bowens43]

3. She won't be GIVING anything

she just needs to have the integrity to admit that she lost. Hillary's only possible motivation for continuing this travesty to try to ensure that Obama loses the GE so that she can have a shot in 2012.

[GoldieAZ49]

32. she hasn't lost until Obama has 2024 delegates

for her to quit is a 'give away'.

[harun]

82. By that logic, if you call it that Kucinich, Edwards and Dodd havn't lost yet either (n/t)

[DesEtoiles]

4. because she lost fair and square

[GoldieAZ49]

33. What you can't count to 2024 so it should be called now?

I don't think so!

[nxylas]

89. Huckalogic

Huckabee used exactly the same argument for staying in the race long after it became apparent that he couldn't win.

[GoldieAZ49]

96. he didn't have the super delegates

dems do

[tularetom]

5. that's fine except for all the clinton supporters whining about how

they will NEVER vote for Obama.

[GoldieAZ49]

38. Some of that is primary fatigue

some of it is fact

Forcing her to quit will solidify both.

For all the talk of 'we don't need that segment of the party to win' is dead wrong. The party needs every segment and then some.


Calling the race before it is over and making one candidate step down is the worst thing the party can do.

[invictus]

6. Obama has already won. Hillary is just doing McCain's dirty work for him. n/t

[NJmaverick]

7. When you have alreadly mathematically lost, you can't "give" anything

the only thing you can do is step aside for the good of the party.

[rurallib]

8. Because she has already lost and to continue her line of attack

has been doing nothing but helping McCain. McCain is such a pathetic candidate that he can't win on his own.
I hope the good people of Pennsylvania put an end to this farce so we can get after the real opponent - McCain.

[Life Long Dem]

9. Who said give the nomination to Obama?

Obama won it. Unless Hillary gets 60% in the remaining states. And PA will make that figure go higher after tomorrow, and so on and so on.

Give? Nothing is given. Poor choice of words.

[Erin Elizabeth]

10. It isn't hers to give anyway.

It's never been hers to give. She doesn't have it. And won't.

[billyoc]

11. She shouldn't. She should keep campaigning.

Carving the epitaph into the DLC gravestone.

[grantcart]

13. Lost another superdelegate today

Obama is ahead by 163 pledged delegates.


A number of Clinton Super Delegates have indicated they are about to change.


But she shouldn't stop or give anything away. She should stay in as long as she wants.

[Fox Mulder]

14. I don't know...

because there's no chance for her to win?

It'd be nice to focus on defeating McCain now instead of dragging out this crap until the convention.

[thereismore]

15. She has NOTHING to give. nt

[Bonobo]

16. Because he will wind up ahead and so the reverse is unthinkable.

Why should SDs decide it again?

[GoldieAZ49]

47. Because that is how the party is set up.

They did it for a reason.

[Bonobo]

49. Do you know the history of the SD system? What do you think this "reason" is?

[GoldieAZ49]

59. so they can select the most electable candidate

and not defeat the candidates running down ticket.

[Bonobo]

61. More like to prevent anyone non-establishment candidates from winning.

According to political scientist Rhodes Cook, superdelegates were created as a "firewall to blunt any party outsider that built up a head of steam in the primaries."

http://www.b12partners.net/mt/archives/2008/02/brief-history-of-super-delegates.html

[juno jones]

62. Great link!

Very informative.

[BlooInBloo]

17. I say let her candidacy twist in the wind as long as her supporters like looking at the corpse...

.... And let them pretend it's alive. Maybe that way they'll be too mesmerized to vote for McCain.

[Austinitis]

19. We should go for the popular vote

And push for as much as we can get with all of the attacks that we can use until the last primary. If we have the popular vote by the last primary, we should fight it out until the convention to convince supers to ratify the popular vote (and to flip Obama pledged delegates who feel bad about going against popular will).


That said, I don't think Hillary is going to drop out before the convention unless it gets really bad. She just has not motivation to do so (if Obama loses, it just confirms what she was saying about him being unelectable. And she won't really become a pariah - Kennedy went all the way to the convention in 1980, and people still like him).

[Divernan]

25. Don't you dare compare Kennedy's campaign to this Rove-inspired waking nightmare of HRC's campaign.

[Austinitis]

34. I dare.

:scared:

The comparison is a pretty obvious one. I don't quite care whether you like to hear it.

[Divernan]

37. Let's see a single link where Kennedy said the GOP candidate was better than a Dem candidate.

[Austinitis]

42. *I'M* the one making the comparison, so I pick the basis for comparison

who cares if you can find a difference between the two of them? I can do that too (e.g. He has gray hair she has blond hair.) I'm not required to say they have everything in common to point out that they have significant similarities.

Face it: Nothing is going to happen to Hillary if she goes all the way to the convention. Nothing happened to Kennedy (he's actually done pretty well for himself in the party.

[rox63]

54. Do you know how primaries work?

It is the delegates that are the deciding factor, not the popular vote. That's the way it's been for a mighty long time. Read up on the rules. :eyes:

[MattBaggins]

85. Attack attack attack

Take a second look at the counter where the sink used to be. If you look hard enough you will see a towel there some where.

[EmperorHasNoClothes]

20. I honestly don't care if she stays in the race.

I just wish she would stop the bullshit right wing attacks. She's not doing herself any favors by making so many Democrats despise her.

[Zachstar]

21. Lets see

He is leading in delegates

He is leading in popular vote (DO NOT START with the MI and FL talk)

He is leading in fundraising

His warchest is not almost empty

He is not sitting on 10 million worth of debt

McCain is gaining ground while democrats are distracted.


Just a few reasons. But it is Clinton's decision.

If she wants to wait until May 6 for another major defeat then that is her choice.

If she wants to wait till the convention that is her choice tho she will be so unpopular at the end of it I doubt she can even keep her seat in congress after 2012.

[Avalux]

22. I didn't know she was in charge and that it's hers to give.

And parroting Hillary's ill-conceived idea that pledged delegates can change their votes is in conflict of the democratic process. It indicates the desperation from Hillary's side.

Doesn't the fact that her campaign is in debt concern you? If she can't run a solid campaign and get contributions, why should she be the nominee?

[Divernan]

23. You remind me of the spouse who keeps fighting a divorce when the marriage is deader than a doornail

You know - the situation where the husband or wife has not only moved on to someone new, but has moved to a different state, purchased a home with the new significant other, and even started a new family.

Just as it no longer matters how much the abandoned spouse ever loved the one who left, or still loooooooooooves the one who left, it doesn't matter how much you looooooooooooooove HRC or the idea of a HRC presidency, she basically abandoned you by running the worst presidential campaign in recorded history. You demean your own intelligence and common sense by hanging on to your fantasy.
SHE was the one who let YOU down. Her failure is NOT your fault. You backed her with every good intention. You have no idea of the stress your denial is causing you. Obsession w/ HRC is not a good thing for you, for the people who care about you, or for the Democratic party.

[madrchsod]

26. she is?

[Arugula Latte]

27. It's not hers to give!

This arrogance is making me sick.

[GoldieAZ49]

30. Then you agree she should stay in until it is over

glad to hear it

[Zavulon]

28. She has every right to stay in the race as long as the race lasts.

That said, when that miserable bitch drops out / loses, it will be one of the happiest days of my life.

[mckeown1128]

77. using that language is counter productive...

you should delete it.

[Zavulon]

90. Not happening.

I meant what I said and I stand by it.

[mckeown1128]

93. Hey, don't say I didn't warn you...when they come for your head. nt

[Zavulon]

97. Eek. :)))

That was pretty good, though, thanks :rofl:

I freely admit I didn't get the joke the first time, sorry for the serious tone. :)

[cali]

29. agree that the primary season should simply finish up

let the rest of the states vote. but face it, it's not a 20 delegate difference of a 50 delegate difference. His lead is significant.

[Pisces]

35. She doesn't have to give him shit, he's going to take it!!

[Texasgal]

36. Is anyone saying she should?

The PEOPLE should decide!

I believe in the process very much so and others should as well!

[LSK]

39. because he EARNED it

Any other stupid questions????

[GoldieAZ49]

44. no he hasn't

The accusations of Hillary dividing the party and the calls for her to drop out can be turned around on Obama just as effectively

The party is divided between the two, NEITHER has won, so let the process work

[LSK]

70. he EARNED IT by putting together a superior team and organization

And doing all the campaign work that any other candidate has.

[Diamond Dog]

48. Will you be saying that if August rolls around and he leads?

If he leads both in pledged delegates and the popular vote, or will you agree that he's won?

[Vinca]

50. Because she can't catch his numbers and if she wants a Democrat

to win the White House, it would be good to start running the general campaign now. It almost seems she's intent on making Obama unelectable despite his majority of delegates, which will mean President McCain.

[GoesTo11]

51. She shouldn't give it to Obama, but she also shouldn't give the GE to McCain

It's not that she's staying in the race - that would be great if they were both attacking McCain. It's that she's running the attacks on Obama that McCain wants to run. Since she's got a 15% chance of getting the nomination (according to Intrade and like sites), this is far more likely to hurt party chances than it is to help her win. This, Hillary supporters, is why Obama supporters are getting so upset.

[washingdem]

52. Cause after 8 years of Bush, we don't want to jeopardize our GE chances.

Time to go, Hillary.

[zulchzulu]

53. The Monster Lost...

Tell me how The Monster can make up for being in a position where it is nearly mathematically impossible for It to win. It's over.

[mmonk]

55. You ask the wrong question. Why should she give it to McCain?

[Imagevision]

57. Hillary has begun to remind me of Ralph Nader, you know, the spoiler...?

[blm]

58. Gephardt, Dean, Edwards didn't GIVE nomination to Kerry - MATH beat them, just like it beats HRC

Only she doesn't care about anything but her run in 2012 against a Pres McCain, and she'll do everything she can to undermine Obama just as she and her loyalists did to Gore and Kerry.

[kwenu]

60. Hillary SHOULDN'T give the nomination to Obama because she can't GIVE anything.

1. She doesn't have the power to give the nomination to anyone; and
2. She DOES have the choice to put the party first, suspend her campaign and end the infighting that damages the party.

Why her and not Obama?

a. She's behind in pledged delegates and has almost no chance of ever catching up.
b. She's behind in the popular vote and has almost no chance of ever catching up. Counting Fl and MI AS-IS is NOT going to happen due to the candidates prior agreement. The DNC won't overturn that agreement without the Obama AND Hillary campaigns approval. Even so, it won't give her the lead in popular votes but rather pull her to within a few votes behind Obama.
c. The Hillary campaign is operating in the RED.

A, B and C is why Obama and not Hillary. The opposite would absolutely apply if the reverse were true in Hillary's favor.

[RazBerryBeret]

63. I want her to stay in...

for as long as she possibly can.

I don't want there to be any doubt when she drops out.
it's looking better and better all the time...

[demwing]

65. She can't give it - it isn't hers! She's dancing to her swan song now.

Obama will win. Hillary can bow out so that the party can unite and take on McCain, or she can dance her stupid dance, and play this all the way to the convention, and then....Obama will STILL win.

[Hamlette]

66. We don't expect or ask Hillary to give us one damned thing. She long ago lost her honor & dignity.

And squanders Bill's good name with his own party.

I suspect Bill can get it back. He's charismatic and can charm his way back into our hearts but Hillary doesn't have his gifts in that regard.

[dbmk]

67. The part of the world I am sitting in

.. is asking what the hell Hillary is doing, though.

I have heard her used as a synonym for a creative liar already.
I have heard someone say "Mugabe would be proud" about her talking about the FL/MI issue.

And I don't travel in especially politically interested circles. Far from it.

Atm, she is not exactly a shining beacon of democracy here. Bush has made many europeans extremely cynical in their view of american politics and politicians.
Hillary is doing VERY little atm to alleviate that.

[Lerkfish]

68. the amazing hubris that the loser is in a position to "GIVE" the contest to the winner

hubris. very unbecoming

[cliffordu]

69. So you'll figure out somehting else to do with your three posts per day.

NEVERMIND!!!


:rofl:

[cottonseed]

72. I think the World is waiting for Hillary to drop out.

Just sayin.

[Occam Bandage]

73. It ain't hers to give. Rather, she should realize that she can't win and step down.

[Warren DeMontague]

74. You do realize that she was never "inevitable", she was never "entitled", it was never "HER TURN"?

She's not in a position to GIVE Obama anything. She's lost.

I really think some deep self-examination could be useful for the die-hard Hillary crowd, not that I think that'll happen in many cases; see, this idea that somehow the nomination belonged to her, it was hers and Obama "stole" it... it's a strange sort of delusion, isn't it?

Sort of like how Bill Richardson is a "Judas" for endorsing Obama, but he wasn't one for running against Hillary himself?

Or was that maybe because team Hillary knew there had to be the appearance of a primary process, one filled with lots of stuffed suits for Hillary to sit next to during debate roundtables, but there wasn't supposed to be an actual CONTEST, certainly not one that Hillary could actually LOSE..

See, Hillary was no more entitled to win this thing than anyone else- she had to make her case, and she has really, spectacularly failed to do that. She based her early campaign on "inevitability", and her later campaign has been pure Rovian sleaze. She's lost, and she knows she's lost, so she should drop out.

But she won't, no matter what I think. So rest easy.

[mckeown1128]

75. I am sorry but I have to debunk your thread...

To debunk your thread:

Only 140 total delegates separate them,

of course you are counting SDs which in the next sentance you discredit as flimsy. So, let us look again at your "it's close" opinion. There are 173 Pledged Delegates apart which while it isn't a whole lot in the grand scheme of things... BUT..it is insurmountable this late in the primary...considering that the candidates are expected to evenly split the remaining 566 delegates. So most agree that she can't catch up.

that included the Supers which can and will change until the convention. Even the "pledged" delegates can change their votes. Why doesn't Obama GIVE the nomination to Hillary?

the pledged delegates are not supposed to "change" their votes... and do you really want Hillary to win that way.

The race isn't over, demanding one or the other candidate drops out defeats the democratic process that I thought we all held dear.

You plea your defense of the "democratic process that I thought we all held dear." but... you go on to say that the SDs could and should overturn the results of the "democratic process" by backing Hillary (who we have already discussed... can not beat Obama per primary results)

Let them finish the primary, make their case to the Super Delegates. Whoever wins then, and only then, can make the case for the party uniting behind them.

All the SDs who have spoken out on this have said that they (and they predict other SDs) will respect either the popular vote or the PD lead. It is VERY unlikely that Hillary will win either. VERY unlikely. Tomorrow we will most likely be able to say it is impossible.

Short of that the party will remain divided and hard feelings on both sides that may be just what will elect the republican. Maddy made a good point in another thread, our primary has the country and the world watching and considering our position, this is a GOOD thing!

You say this is a good thing and that it is necessary that the primary drag on till the end... but back on FEb-09-08 you said this:

-For McCain the GE has started, if the Dems don't have a candidate until June
or worse Aug at the convention (the party won't allow that, it would be suicide) the Repubs will have the lead.

-The Dems keep having debates gives McCain the advantage.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4499095#4500707

You made a good point on two fronts.. one these debates give McCain the advantage and the party won't allow the race to drag on to the convention.

Let us show them that we are not afraid of the democratic process just because we have primary fatigue.

There you go talking about the Democratic process... yet you have stated that Hillary will need the SDs and maybe even the PDs to switch the result from what the voters wanted, in order for Hillary to win.


So to answer your question of "why should Hillary give Obama the nomination" and "why shouldnt' Obama give Hillary the nomination."

1. It isn't Hillary's to give... she would have to HAVE it in the first place.
2. Obama shouldn't give the nomination to Hillary because the voter's have given it to him.(barring elected officials overturning the results)

[GoldieAZ49]

79. (barring elected officials overturning the results)

So the primary ends in June lets see where we are then.

We will see what the SD's do.

We don't need to demand anyone drop out prior to that.

[mckeown1128]

81. I am sorry which is it...

do we wait for the primary to end in order t achieve democracy or

do we wait for the SDs to "choose" our candidate


Which one do you want?

And again according to your own words... this is bad for the GE election against McCain.

[GoldieAZ49]

84. It depends, do we want a nominee as soon as possible or do we want

a united party?

one without the other helps the repubs.

[mckeown1128]

87. We wouldn't be in this problem if Hillary had dropped out after

OH and TX. She should have just marched up to the podium the next day and announced that she could no longer win the nomination Democratically. Instead she is pushing on. All she will accomplish is either leaving a weakened Obama.... or she will get the SDs to overturn the voting results... thus making us the UNdemocratic party.


So I ask you. Since we are almost certain to have Obama the nominee AND since Hillary has forced us into this "do we want a nominee as soon as possible or do we want a united party" conundrum...will you and your fellow Hillary supporters for party unity and too prevent the strengthening of McCain which I quoted from you earlier...will you join the Obama supporters in gently asking for Hillary to step aside so that we can face the McCain with the eventual nominee Obama?


What will it be? You supported Obama before... their policies are very similar... You know very well that Obama will be a fine option instead of McCain. (Maybe not as good a choice as Hillary in your opinion) but still he is much better than McCain. Will you help the Democratic Party vote end the primary and defeat McCain?

[mdmc]

78. let em go at it

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

80. Clinton and her supporters keeping having a problem understanding this.

The nomination is not hers to give.

[Milo_Bloom]

83. Because she has no path to the nomination.

[intaglio]

86. Because she's out of money?

$8m available for the Primaries and $10m debt

[PBS Poll-435]

88. Because he gave her *the finger*?

I dunno

:shrug:

[Orsino]

91. Not hers to give. It's the Party's.

But since she seems to be finishing in second place, she should have some sort of a plan to get herself on the ticket.

[pettypace]

95. Watch the Hillary rally right now

Its scary how may diehards she has - no one is saying she should drop out. Let her run to Denver so we can have McCain for 4 years.

[krkaufman]

98. Why did Hillary want the process over on Super Tuesday?

Your candidate's hypocrisy used to be astounding; now it is just pitiable.

As for the "world watching and considering our position", it's most definitely NOT a good thing when our position appears to be no different than the Republican regime we wish to replace. Osama? 3am phone calls? Flag pins? Exactly what substantive issues was the world informed on in the last debate? Or when Hillary and her surrogates continue to bring up Rev Wright?

No one would argue that an extended campaign waged on the issues *might* have been a good thing, but Hillary put that possibility behind us long ago, when she started praising the Republican candidate over the Democratic frontrunner.

[annie1]

100. Because they are scared he'll do something dumb, so it's more convenient...

to just hand it to him.