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Senator Obama, Have you ever known Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?

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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:06 AM
Original message
Senator Obama, Have you ever known Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
Senator Obama, Have you ever known Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?

If you dont remember the name, its OK nobody besides the Silvermaster family remembers it either.

IT IS NECESSARY TO ESTABLISH A LITTLE HISTORY IN ORDER TO MAKE A VERY IMPORTANT POINT ABOUT OUR NEXT PRESIDENT.

It was the name that the House Committee on Un-American Activities asked Paul Robeson on June 12th, 1956.



Paul Robeson was one of Americas greatest artists who had a brilliant mind and great courage. In 1946 he brought to the American public the curious idea that lynching African Americans was an un American act and he founded the American Crusade against Lynching. Many prominent Americans including Albert Einstein joined it. The FBI called it a communist front organization and maintained surveillance of him until 1974.

Mr. Robeson was very active politically including the presidential campaign of Progressive Party candidate Henry Wallace who was Vice President under Roosevelt. Many intellectuals became enamored with Marxism in the 30s when the American masses were suffering. Robeson was singled out and had to create an international career because he was blacklisted here. He had to go to the Supreme Court to get his passport. In his travels he traveled to the Soviet Union and frankly was duped into seeing only the veneer of benefit and not the oppression there.

On June 12, 1956 Paul Robeson appeared before the Committee and had this famous exchange
Mr. ARENS: Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. ROBESON: Oh please, please, please.
Mr. SCHERER: Please answer, will you, Mr. Robeson?
Mr. ROBESON: What is the Communist Party? What do you mean by that?
Mr. SCHERER: I ask that you direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. ROBESON: What do you mean by the Communist Party? As far as I know it is a legal party like the Republican Party and the Democratic Party. Do you mean a party of people who have sacrificed for my people, and for all Americans and workers, that they can live in dignity? Do you mean that party?
Mr. ARENS: Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. ROBESON: Would you like to come to the ballot box when I vote and take out the ballot and see?


It is hard to go back in time and understand the fear that these monsters created and how courageous Robeson was. The persecution was based on a simple principle just name names and then everything will be OK. You can work again sign a little pledge and go on. Some did not. Some of these that were blacklisted committed suicide in despair. Paul Robeson laughed at them:


Mr. ARENS: Now, tell this Committee whether or not you know Nathan Gregory Silvermaster.
Mr. SCHERER: Mr. Chairman, this is not a laughing matter.
Mr. ROBESON: It is a laughing matter to me, this is really complete nonsense.
Mr. ARENS: Have you ever known Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
(The witness consulted with his counsel.)
Mr. ROBESON: I invoke the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. ARENS: Do you honestly apprehend that if you told whether you know Nathan Gregory Silvermaster you would be supplying information that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
Mr. ROBESON: I have not the slightest idea what you are talking about. I invoke the Fifth
Mr. ARENS: I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness be directed to answer that question.
THE CHAIRMAN: You are directed to answer the question.
Mr. ROBESON: I invoke the Fifth.
Mr. SCHERER: The witness talks very loud when he makes a speech, but when he invokes the Fifth Amendment I cannot hear him.
Mr. ROBESON: I invoked the Fifth Amendment very loudly. You know I am an actor, and I have medals for diction

The committee would continue to harass him and try to get him to break but he did not break and then he made this famous statement and the Chairman abruptly adjourned the meeting:


Mr. ROBESON: I say that he is as patriotic an American as there can be, and you gentlemen belong with the Alien and Sedition Acts, and you are the nonpatriots, and you are the un-Americans, and you ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
THE CHAIRMAN: Just a minute, the hearing is now adjourned.

The power of the Committee would ebb and flow and eventually Senator McCarthy would bring the committee down by trying to trash the patriotism of the United States Army.

The hallmark of the committee was the following phrase,

Mr. ______ are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party.


SAME OLD FEAR IN A NEW VESSEL

The tactics of how the fear mongers were able to undermine the constitution, destroy people and make fear contagious was by the tactic of guilt by association. You know him, you are like him and we must destroy you like we destroyed him or if you give us the names then we will let you go and destroy them and so on.
On March 14 2008 the structure and tone of these un American tactics were resurrected in this interview with Major Garrett on Fox News, please take a minute to review it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-kaJPyLi10

The parallel tone, Are you now or have you ever been were you married were your daughters baptized, to that of the HUAC is palpable and chilling.

You can see Senator Obama tense as he wants to contain the question so that he can get the campaign back on line but you can see that a part of him wants to give the Paul Robeson line, Major Garrett and Fox News you are the un American.


ATTACKING SENATOR OBAMA BECAUSE OF THE PEOPLE HE KNOWS

And now when the power structure wants to strike down Reverend Wright Senator Obama has made a very reasoned response in condemning particular statements and reaffirming his relationship.

And now we approach the now famous debate

Senator Clinton however had no problem condemning the man and the association to the man:

But I have to say that, you know, for Pastor Wright to have given his first sermon after 9/11 and to have blamed the United States for the attack, which happened in my city of New York, would have been just intolerable for me. And, therefore, I would have not been able to stay in the church.

And maybe it's, you know, just, again, a personal reflection that, regardless of whatever good is going on, and I have no reason to doubt that a lot of good things were happening in that church.

You get to choose your pastor. You don't choose your family, but you get to choose your pastor


Except that in 1998 when President Clinton was under assault for the Lewinski affair he did pick on Reverend Wright for help:



During one of the most difficult periods in the presidency of Bill Clinton, he addressed a group of clerics at an annual prayer breakfast in September 1998 just as the Starr report outlining his dalliance with Monica Lewinsky was about to be published.



SENATOR CLINTON RETURNS AGAIN TO GUILT BY ASSOCIATION

Having gotten through a pretty sorry patch in the debate Senator Clinton chooses to return to the subject and tar Senator Obama with Farakhan and Hamas as well.

I think in addition to the questions about Reverend Wright and what he said and when he said it, and for whatever reason he might have said these things, there were so many different variations on the explanations that we heard.
And it is something that I think deserves further exploration because clearly, what we've got to figure out is how we're going to bring people together in a way that overcomes the anger, overcomes the divisiveness and whatever bitterness there may be out there. You know?

It is clear that, as leaders, we have a choice who we associate with and who we apparently give some kind of seal of approval to.

And I think that it wasn't only the specific remarks but some of the relationships with Reverend Farrakhan, with giving the church bulletin over to the leader of Hamas, to put a message in.

You know, these are problems. And they raise questions in people's minds. And, so, this is a legitimate area, as everything is, when we run for office, for people to be exploring and trying to find answers.



SENATOR OBAMA CHOOSES NOT TO TAKE A CHEAP SHOT ON BOSNIA

The moderators now move to Clinton and attack her for her Bosnia statement. Senator Obamas response: And I think Senator Clinton deserves the right to make some errors once in a while. Obviously, I make some as well.


ANOTHER QUESTION REMINISCENT OF HUAC

Gibson is asking, A gentleman named William Ayers. He was part of the Weather Underground in the 1970s. They bombed the Pentagon, the Capitol, and other buildings. He's never apologized for that.

And, in fact, on 9/11, he was quoted in the New York Times saying, "I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we didn't do enough." An early organizing meeting for your State Senate campaign was held at his house and your campaign has said you are "friendly."
Can you explain that relationship for the voters and explain to Democrats why it won't be a problem?

It would have been easy to play along and give them the answer that would have appeased them but Obama confronts the issue and concludes his answer with

So this kind of game in which anybody who I know, regardless of how flimsy the relationship is, that somehow their ideas could be attributed to me, I think the American people are smarter than that. They're not going to suggest somehow that that is reflective of my views, because it obviously isn't.


Clinton immediately weighs in with

Well, I think that is a fair general statement, but I also believe that Senator Obama served on a board with Mr. Ayers for a period of time, the Woods Foundation, which was a paid directorship position.
And, if I'm not mistaken, that relationship with Mr. Ayers on this board continued after 9/11 and after his reported comments, which were deeply hurtful to people in New York and, I would hope, to every American, because they were published on 9/11, and he said that he was just sorry they hadn't done more.

And what they did was set bombs. And in some instances, people died. So it is -- I think it is, again, an issue that people will be asking about.


A STARK CONTRAST

On the one hand we have Senator Obama who is taking us to a different kind of conversation and on the other side we have FOX, ABC and the MSM media that is trying to destroy by guilt by association. Not what you have said or done but what people that you know have done or said.

Senator Clinton on the one hand derides the pastor (who helped the Clintons in their time of need) and tries to paint Obama with the brush of the pastors remark of need on the one hand and Senator Obama who brushes away attacks on Senator Clinton that she not only said herself but statements she now admits were said untruthfully at the time.

So we have a leader who is trying to lead us with our better angels on one side and a rough and tumble fighter who will throw a pastor who helped her under the bus on the other.

But it goes deeper than that. By adopting the techniques and tactics, by allying and repeating the modern equivalents of the HUAC it goes to the essential constitutional questions that Paul Robeson faced when he was asked about the long forgotten Gregory Silvermaster in the Committee hearing so many decades ago. What is the essential nature of being an American. It was a test of personal commitment to constitutional principles. One passed and one failed.

Future President Obama just passed his first constitutional test with flying colors.



ABC transcripts of the Obama/Clinton Debate http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/DemocraticDebate/Story?i...
Paul Robesons Testimony http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6440
HUAC http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_Un-American_Activiti...
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:16 AM
Response to Original message
1. I am in tears. The powers-that-be are so entrenched, that they do what they do
Edited on Sat Apr-19-08 02:17 AM by FrenchieCat
without a 2nd thought.

We have to fight this. We have to stand behind Obama.

They really didn't stop Barack in time. That really is their problem, isn't it?

He is unstoppable, unless they can destroy him.

What is shocking is that people here who support Hillary really can't see it, obviously they can't. Boggles the mind.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
44. In Carre's great books on the British secret service somebody asks
Smiley what he misses about the old days, meaning the cold war. He responds 'the clarity' meaning that in the 60s it became harder to figure out who was good and who was bad.

The great thing about this campaign is the clarity. Obama has drawn the sharpest contrast possible. It will get even sharper in the General Election.


We are so lucky to have this chance that we cannot let it pass by.


Whatever it takes.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #44
132. Clarity Afficionados for
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speedoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. Can you imagine what Edward R. Murrow would say about...
Hillary?

Bill Clinton?

Charlie Gibson?

Stephanopolous?

The idiots at Fox?

They are all just like McCarthy. Traitors to The Constitution.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. At least there is Keith Olbermann.......
At least.

We also have a lot of progressive press behind us....but that's about it.

It is really up to us.

We must make calls, etc.....

those of us who haven't done it must get out of our comfort zone.
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ScarletSniper Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 07:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
24. I am so out of my comfort zone now..it's unbelievable..I have never been that involved in
politics before..but Obama has changed that for me, my family and friends. We are in deep..and will battle the evil forces...
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #24
38. welcome to DU
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ScarletSniper Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
67. Thanks
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Mme. Defarge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #24
43. That is EXACTLY what we are battling --
almost, it seems, on a cosmic scale.

So,buckle up and expect major, serious turbulence and prepare for a very rough ride ahead.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #24
61. The MSM, Insurance cos, War Profiteers - don't want us involved
that is what has been going on for decades, the effort to keep people
from being involved, and keep them from voting their best interests.

The MSM is struggling to retain control, but Obama Internet 3.0 is knocking
them down.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. It is very strange
Yes Gibson, Stephanopolous and Major Garrett are embarsements to their profession.


But their bumbling has helped us see not only how decent this Obama fellow is but how principled he is.


We cannot leave it to the next Murrow.


We have to do this ourselves.


We have to stand up. We have to find a little of that Paul Robeson magic.


It is our constitution. With the internet and the tools we have it is our turn.


We are the ones we have been waiting for and this is our time.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. jeebus. I wish Molly was around to give Hillary a piece of her mind. n/t
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. well that's your job now
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. chuckle. I think it's safe to say that Molly would be a tad more artful in the enterprise. n/t
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #15
39. except there are a ton of people (like your neighbors) that would have never heard her
but will hear you.
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speedoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #12
95. I have a pretty good idea what Molly would say to Hillary.
Unfortunately, Hillary would pay no attention, because she only listens to what she wants to hear. There is no evidence whatsoever that she has ever heeded anyone with a contrary opinion or set of facts.

But we would certainly all benefit from hearing Molly again. And she has left behind much that we can read and apply to today's, and future events.
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Shae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #95
136. If Molly were alive ...
She would be dead to Hillary and her crowd.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:21 AM
Response to Original message
4. robeson is a great American and Obama was more than gracious to that Fox asswipe
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
60. The juxtaposition was alarming

Before long Robeson will be a long lost memory.

Even in the 50s and 60s they would remember him.


And now we have so called progressives using the techniques of Joseph McCarthy to bring the party down.
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #60
78. "Before long Robeson will be a long lost memory." Another reason why I'm so grateful for your post
Lillian Hellman, too, showed her mettle when she went before the HUAC and refused to name names,
saying "I refuse to cut my conscience to fit this year's fashions."

We must never allow this kind of guilt-by-association mentality to take root in this country again.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #60
87. the real heroes of American and even world history are usually forgotten like Smedley Butler
Mother Jones, Fanny Lou Hamer, and the Russian soldier who refused to launch nuclear missiles when he saw an American barrage of ICBMs coming over the pole (which later turned out to be a solar flare or something).
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
5. Obama served on a board with this guy?
oh my goodness

I saw something in the paper today about this but they didn't mention the relationship between them

can anyone say grasping at straws?

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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. well silvermaster was some guy whose name came up in the HUAC 60 years ago
I simply was using it to establish a historical parrallel.
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whistler162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #8
71. I am waiting for them to ask Senator Obama....
why he has read, promotes, and taught the writings of known revolutionaries.


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Leopolds Ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #71
110. Ed Muskie's sister was a known thespian and he osculated his wife
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #110
111. Yes and I hear that he often masticated
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #110
152. lol
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Bette Noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
157. Uh, oh.
I do some volunteer work. What if someone in the committee is a dangerous radical? Oh-- that would be me.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:24 AM
Response to Original message
6. And the only difference..
between now and then is the internet. We would be so fucked if we couldn't shake out this shit.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. That is why when we finally have a leader who gets it we have to go all in
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
74. This is why I believe fundamental issues such
as Net Neutrality are vital, because the corporate media have been compromised and the same corrupted powers that own the media, among other corporations that want megaphones of power will not be giving up with out trying to neutralize the growing power and influence of the people's voice via the Internet.

The struggle for democracy didn't end with The Revolutionary War, Civil War, the Suffrage Movement giving women the right to vote or the Civil Rights Movement of the 60s. That struggle is eternal and if you forget it, you have people like Gingrich come out and say this.

If theres a threat, you have a right to defend society, Gingrich said. People will give up all their liberties to avoid that level of threat.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

The names and dates may change, the faces change and even the issues may change, but it all boils to power. Today it just happens to be corporations versus the people.

Thanks to grantcart for the outstanding O.P.

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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #74
80. thanks
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Spiffarino Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #74
141. Gingrich's America:
The Land of the Weak, the Home of the Timid.
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:28 AM
Response to Original message
9. Kicked and recommended!
:dem:

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casus belli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:29 AM
Response to Original message
10. The Salem Witch Trials of the 20th Century.
Edited on Sat Apr-19-08 02:31 AM by casus belli
What a despicable, disgusting stain on the fabric of this great country. That someone who purports to embrace progressive politics could travel so close to the same path is beyond my comprehension. I thought progressive politics gave voice to those who were wrongly persecuted. I THOUGHT progressive politics defended what was right and stood up to face tyranny. That Hillary has hidden behind the "well I'm just saying what Republicans will say" is the ultimate act of cowardice. To participate in the blood letting of a member of her own party for the sake of opportunism, while denying any complicity in spreading the false-isms, is the height of hypocrisy and has forever tarnished my opinion of her, her husband, and those who support her.

edit: for grammatical error
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. We seemed to have passed our own modern Rubicon
But only a small number seem to be aware of it.

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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
16. excellent post n/t
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 03:41 AM
Response to Original message
17. good night
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mainer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 05:34 AM
Response to Original message
18. This sends chills up my spine
Specifically, the part where Hillary chimes in about Ayers and the Woods Foundation and how "this is an issue that people will be asking about."

Because YOU WANT THEM TO, don't you, Hillary?

This makes me angrier than ever. I'm sending another donation to Obama.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #18
45. and if they didn't get it a commercial would do the job
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 05:35 AM
Response to Original message
19. Recommended
:kick:
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 06:18 AM
Response to Original message
20. SHAMING AMERICANS FOR DISSENT = FASCISM
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #20
62. The time has come for the progressives in America to band together
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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
21. K/R - Terrific piece, grantcart!
Extremely well written. Kudos!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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ecdab Donating Member (834 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 06:52 AM
Response to Original message
22. K&R
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 06:53 AM
Response to Original message
23. My goodness, grantcart...
You're certainly starting to rack up the quality OP's now, aren't you? :P Another excellent piece of work here! K&R
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 07:26 AM
Response to Original message
25. K&R
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
26. Hillary was prepped and ready to jump on the Ayers bandwagon
Reciting the bit about "he served with him as a paid directorship on the Woods Foundation" she looked like a 4th grader at the state spelling bee finals spelling out antidisestablishmentarianism. Excited, but contained - yippee! they asked that one, and I know it!

Her willingness to jump onto the Ayers canard shows once again her shollowness and deceit and that she will go wherever the limbo bar is set.
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Tinksrival Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. That's exactly what I saw too!
I couldn't believe my eyes.

"Excited, but contained - yippee! they asked that one, and I know it"

It was like she didn't really listen to the exchange because her brain had already moved on to her formulated response.
Like she KNEW it was coming. It really seemed to me she knew in advanced. She absolutely creeped me out.
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
79. I feel the same way and have posted about the feeling that she didn't even blink after
those scurrilous allegations were made, but just glided into her remarks as if cued.

She did not act like someone who was thinking on her feet but someone who was reciting
a response written ahead of time.
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Tinksrival Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #79
131. Your reply just made me realize who she reminded me of in that debate!
Nellie Olson! :rofl:

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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
27. Zing! K and R
Another straight arrow to help us to understand how Obama is constantly TEACHING us about our history and making us strong enough to fight against political evil doers.

So many thoughts run through my mind --

OBAMA is a superior TEACHER.
He knows how to make millions of people THINK!
What a gift he is giving to each one of us.

He inspires us as students to dig for information that will change the face of 21st Century politics. He inspires us to have discipline and measure our words.
He teaches us to do unto others.

Every time I hear Rev. Wright's name I want to scream, " Rev. Wright is not running for office!"
But I know that ABC and HC will not hear me and it makes me so bitter.

I would immediate come to her defense if the Media asked HC why didn't she leave her husband after she knew, and the world knew, that he had associated with Monica IN THE HOUSE THAT SHE AND HER HUSBAND were living in.

Anyone that lives in a glass house should not throw stones and yet she does.

Your post FIRES us up! We have work to do in America and Sen. Obama is teaching us how to "brush off" and turn this around.

Fired Up and Ready to "brush off" this mess in politics!
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
105. You need Obama to teach you???
I rest my case. Are you to lazy to pick up a history book? To do your own due diligence about people and the issues?

Of course you are, as you are a part of the "collective" cult mentality.

Nowhere is that sickness more in evidence than the comment, we need Obama to be the teacher.

Sick and twisted. You need a candidate, a leader, an effective adminsitrator. Teacher? Yours are probably rolling their eyes.
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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #105
123. Response from a member of the "collective" cult mentality:
I do not mind WHO teaches me, the child and the tyrant each have their lessons and it is up to me to be responsive to those lessons or not. You don't feel that Senator Obama has a lesson for you, that is your choice. How gracious of you to challenge others for not making the same choice that you have. Perhaps a book on diplomacy could be used to your own advantage...or not.

Even the most sophisticated tyrant needs on occasion, the child to point out the bit of toilet paper attached to the bottom of their shoe. Not that it matters to most here, (this child included), but I suspect that your grade-school English teacher would approve of SOMEONE reminding you of this: http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/to.html It would be my hunch that you wouldn't want some tyrant asking if you are 'too' lazy to pick up a child's basic English grammar book!

Oh and: GOBAMA

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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #123
124. I wouldn't bother with him he's a pedantic ass that is extremely impressed
with his very own law degree (of all things). Noticed that you are a Coug - is that right? Originally from Spokane.
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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #124
130. Coug???? Well...um...
Edited on Sat Apr-19-08 09:56 PM by chknltl
Not really, where did you get that? I rooted for the Cougars starting a few matches prior to their first ever "Elite 8". I congratulate the Cougs AND the Huskies for that fantastic Apple Cup last winter as well. I confess to being a Husky fan who enjoys even today, poking fun at the "WAZZU" moniker WSU recently left behind. (See??? Some of us children refuse to grow up.) I have visited Spokane though, beautiful city, fine mixture of the old and new. I stayed at a friends place on Roosevelt Ave, perhaps a mile West of Gonzaga for a summer too. My home these days appears to be Tacoma.

As to the lawyer: As I ghosted through this thread after reading your fantastic post, I was offended by his ...um... response. I am not one for altercations but SOMEONE had to stand up to that silliness.

As to your post and this entire thread for that matter: My sincerest thank you. It has been an education for me and my friends, (I e-mailed it to my friends and to my step-kids as well). History does repeat itself and sometimes we need to be reminded that this is not always a good thing and why. I come to the DU for further education, I am happy to report that, thanks to fellow DUers such as yourself, I am rarely disappointed in that endeavor.
Thread reccomended.

edited for spellcheck, (I spell like a freeper way too much!)
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #105
133. Are you to (sic) busy to learn how to spell "too"?
Edited on Sat Apr-19-08 10:21 PM by hisownpetard
Looks like you're the one who could benefit from having a teacher - for, say, 3rd grade level.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
28. this reminds me of this.....

Senator MCCARTHY. Jim, will you get the news story to the effect that this man belonged to this Communist-front organization? Will you get the citations showing that this was the legal arm of the Communist Party, and the length of time that he belonged, and the fact that he was recommended by Mr. Welch? I think that should be in the record.

Mr. WELCH. You wont need anything in the record when I have finished telling you this............




Mr WELCH. Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?



http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/6444
"Have You No Sense of Decency": The Army-McCarthy Hearings
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
83. Fred Fisher
Frederick George "Fred" Fisher, Jr., (born April 19, 1921, Brockton, Massachusetts, died May 25, 1989, Tel Aviv, Israel) was an American lawyer who first entered the public eye in connection with Senator Joseph McCarthy.

He graduated from Bowdoin College in 1942, summa cum laude. After serving in the Army Signal Corps during World War II, he attended Harvard Law School. He graduated in 1948 and joined the law firm of Hale and Dorr in Boston.

In 1954, the firm represented the U.S. Army at the Army-McCarthy hearings on Senator Joseph McCarthy's conduct, and Fisher and Jim St. Clair were the two attorneys initially sent to Washington, D.C. to assist Joseph Welch. On questioning them, Welch learned of Fisher's having belonged to the National Lawyers Guild while in law school and shortly after. Welch decided that that left-wing association made Fisher's participation in the hearings a potential problem, and a colleague replaced Fisher on the case. On April 16, the New York Times discussed Fisher's situation in an article.

Fisher's name was more prominently publicized when McCarthy intimated on national television that Welch should get Fisher fired as a Communist, and that Welch had specifically chosen him for the abortive assignment. In response, Welch delivered some of the most memorable lines from the McCarthy Hearings, accusing McCarthy of "reckless cruelty" and concluding: "Let us not assassinate this lad further, senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you left no sense of decency?" Welch's criticism of McCarthy as callously slandering Fisher drew applause from the gallery, and is generally regarded as the crucial factor in the decline of McCarthy's political career. These proceedings have been recorded in the documentary film Point of Order.

In the 1977 made-for-television film Tail Gunner Joe, the scene was powerfully re-enacted, with Burgess Meredith portraying Welch and Peter Boyle as McCarthy.

Fisher went on to become a partner at Hale & Dorr. In 1973-74, he served as president of the Massachusetts Bar Association
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
29. "House Committee on Un-American Activities"
this is why learning history is so important, and unfortunately the
American Public is very deficient here.

A good media might have eventually stumbled upon this - but we don't
have a good media, we have "personalities" and beauty queens.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #29
86. But the Clinton's know their history
that is what makes this so terribly sad
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
30. EXCELLENT!!!
:yourock:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #30
68. Thanks
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
31. It's very important to consider carefully the historical references that you discuss here
We condemn people like Hitler and McCarthy in retrospect, but it's much more difficult to condemn them at the time. If more people understood how we allowed bad things to happen in the past, we would be more prepared to prevent them from repeating themselves. Not enough Americans are concerned about where we appear to be heading.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. I wonder if that is why Obama talks about the problem with being in DC too long
that the longer you are there the more you get all of your historical perspectives squeezed out of you.

Twenty years ago Hillary Clinton would have been one of those putting out the fire instead of the one handing out the kerosene.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. Exactly - not to mention all the free ego-inflation...
support that is supplied by all the other gasbags in their elected offices. The longer one is there, the more one is assimilated.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
32. Mr. Robeson...
Mr.Robeson, do you love America more than Nathan Gregory Silvermaster?
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #32
135. I believe the analogous comment would be, "Mr. Robeson, does Mr. Silvermaster love America
as much as you do?"
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #135
156. Ah-yep, you are correct.
But in the spirit of the insanity that was last week, I hope that although I mangled the delivery a bit, the message came through. :D
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #156
158. Definitely. Good job!
:hi:
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chieftain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
33.  I can't tell you how grateful I am for your post.
I have weighed in on the post ABC debates about the evils of guilt-by-association. My entries have been passionate attacks on the McCarthyite smear tactic but they have been short of detail. What you have done is supply not only an historical persecutive but a deeply personal narrative of what an individual can lose when subjected to this type of scurrilous treatment. The cost of this mind-set is not limited to the individual. The nation at large was deprived of one of the great talents of the century. He lost; we lost; and the troglodytes triumphed.
What the media has done to Reverend Wright is immoral, unamerican and despicable. They are now starting on William Ayres. This type of thinking will destroy any chance of liberal values to survive. It is pernicious and lethal to our values. We need to resist guilt-by-association. We need to resist the backward slide into neo-McCarthyism.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. Thank you for your posts


For me this is really what it means to be a Democrat.


Standing up to the uber nationalistic tendencies of our country.
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
36. Thanks Grantcart
thanks for making us think outside the box.
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K Gardner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
40. You've outdone yourself this time, grantcart. K&R. This should be a WAKE UP CALL for not only the
Democratic party, but for America.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #40
47. Thanks Gardner
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liberaldem4ever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
41. Great post-K&R
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Mme. Defarge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
46. If I thought that Hillary had an iota of altruism
in her, I could imagine that this entire battle was being staged to flush out every possible negative against Obama in order to innoculate him for what is ahead in the GE -- because her entire performance is, otherwise, inexplicably bizarre. Pure theatre of the absurd. :shrug:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #46
70. it goes I think to Obama's remark that staying in Washington too long is not a good thing
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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
48. Namaste'
!!!
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Namast
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
50. Simply, the finest post I've ever read on DU. Thank you. I hope the Mods ...
.... pin it to the top of GD from now until the day Obama is elected President.

Thank you,
Bob
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. you had me at Thank you
Thank you Bob
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
51. Excellent work
All of this is so obvious and rotten...what is hard is that people have not picked up on it, or at least that we have a media without any remaining interest. McCarthyism was ended under irresistible public pressure, led by relentless media attention. Where are those guys now?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. McCarthyism only ended when it went too far and took on the Army
As long as it stayed on the progressives it could have gone on forever.

And it is an attack that can only be used against progressives. Conservatives don't associate with these people or if they do they cast them away in a nano second. Ask Larry Craig.

And this is why the reaction to this debate requires solidarity. We must speak in a unified voice.
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bhikkhu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. I was thinking of the work of Edward R Murrow
and what I remember from a book I read about him a while back. Probably it was only a partial view of things then, and before my time.

Guilt by association harms everybody, and is a part of the "closing of society" that Naomi Klein writes about. I think you are right that progressives are most vulnerable, and we should be aware the larger effects of some of the campaign tactics we have seen...
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
54. I use a metaphorical construct in some of the training sessions that I conduct
It's called "tilting the frame". I might not be able to explain it in well in a condensed form, but it goes like this. Sometimes a person is looking at a painting hanging on the wall. Every element in the painting seems to be slightly tilted. It doesn't make sense but the person sees parts of the picture and keeps struggling to mentally adjust the various pieces of the picture so they are "straight" and make sense.

But there's another way to make sense. Back away from the painting and one might find that the picture frame is tilted. A quick adjustment in how th frame is hanging on the wall suddenly renders the picture correct again.

That may sound like jibberish but your excellent post is an example of tilting the frame. Why all of a sudden all this talk about Vietnam era activism and so forth? Why the smears against a great hope for our country? Well, when one tilts the frame, i.e. provides the correct context and framework, it all makes sense.

Thanks.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. interesting - what kind of training is that for?
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. My profession
is risk management and the training is designed to encourage associates to view their job responsibilities as a form of risk management. In the picture metaphor, the lesson is when you see various individual parts of a business process not functioning properly, you might try and step back and identify a "picture tilting" solution.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. That is why in philosophy the more important question is not the
frequently existential or the ontological but the epistemological. In other words 'how' you know what you know is more important than what you think you know.

Tactics define Strategies.


Once you take on the strategies of guilt by association it is inevitable that you will eventually end up targeting enemies of war. It is neither an accident or the intention that the Clinton campaign would end up attacking Obama for a possible connection with anti-Vietnam war protesters. It was the inherent application of the tactics. Once you start attacking people's patriotism by means of guilt by association then that path would eventually end up with the most divisive anti-war critics in our nation's most recent history - Vietnam.

And by using this strategy Clinton is helping to reinforce the canabalization of the anti war movement. Unfortunately for her the antiwar movement is stronger than she is.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. Yes, I appreciate your analysis and observation. As a funny side note
I was talking to a fellow Dem the other day and we were joking that McCain wants to get elected so he can restart the war in Vietnam. Funny, but not so much. :(
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
55. Silvermaster? I bet he was in league with that William Jennings Bryan.
A couple of years ago, I bought a book of Paul Robeson stamps.

Doesn't it just figure that Hillary would disparage somebody who tried to end a war?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. When your attacking on grounds of patriotism and using 'guilt by association'
it is the most natural place to go to.


This type of attack necessarily can only be used against progressives.


It is a situation where the tactics will dictate the strategy.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
63. Very nicely done.
K&R.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Thank you
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
69. Kand R -
The Clintons are part of the same machine that gave us Nixon and Bush.

They gotta go. Immediately.
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
72. K&R for this fantastic post! If anyone is not familiar with Paul Robeson's history, it's worth a
few minutes to look him up. He was a brilliant and erudite man - an outstanding scholar, linguist, Phi Beta Kappa,
law school graduate, civil rights activist, incomparable singer and movie actor and can be credited with more
accomplishments than I can even remember.

My mother and father were in Peekskill for his concert when the riot broke out - miles of locals and outside
agitators lined up, attacking the Robeson supporters with baseball bats, throwing bricks through windshields of people
who were trying to get away - while the cops stood by, with their arms folded across their chests and let it all happen.
My mother's eyeglasses were smashed to smithereens, as were the windows of their old Pontiac.

Your OP points out so well just who the people really are who are acting in an "un-American" way. Patriotism is not defined
by a piece of tin stuck on someone's lapel for ostentatious display , but rather by the ideals a person holds dear and the way
he or she chooses to live their lives.

Thanks so much for this post!


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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
73. Error: You've already recommended that thread.
Shoot!
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. HAHAHAHA. Me, too!
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BlueCaliDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:46 PM
Response to Original message
75. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. Thank you so much for this wonderfully...
...inspiring, hope-filled piece, grantcart.

I'm awestruck.

K&R here too.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Thank you
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hisownpetard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
81. To the ADMINS: Can we start a new category of DUzy, giving KUDOS for this kind of enlightening,
well-written, well-thought-out, rare kind of post?

We could call them "KUzys."

Whaddya think??
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. thank you
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 03:23 PM
Response to Original message
82. One of the best posts ever.
Many folks appear to believe that as long as their motives are pure, then there is no need to ever apologize for their tactics or behavior. Hillary (and the rest) will always get a pass on her behavior, at least from certain people, because they believe in her.
It's always amazing to me that the mind alone can be such a powerful force for creating it's own deception.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #82
89. thank you
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futureliveshere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
85. Wow, what a great post... K&RRRRRRR
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DearAbby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
88. Some LTTE's should be written all across the country
about this. We should not stand for this kind of treatment. We either learn from history, or be doom to repeating it over and over. K&R
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
90. I posted this on buzzflash and digg. vote it up: LINKS
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #90
96. thanks for your help
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
91. There is a time when I would like to see reporters use EXACTLY this method:
When they are talking to congressmen, senators, and presidents about their business connections:

Q: Senator, you worked for corporation X before you were elected, is that correct?

Q: How much were you paid when you worked for them?

Q: How much did they donate to your campaign?

Q: Does that company have any legislation or regulatory action before congress or any government agency?

Q: Have they contacted you about those issues and asked you to do anything?

Q: What will you do in response?

Q: When you leave office, do you plan to work in that industry again, either as an executive, board member, lobbyist, consultant, or in any capacity?

Q: If so, would that future employment be in jeopardy if you voted against their interests on some major issue or consistently against them on a lot of small issues?

Q: Finally, how exactly are you different from a streetwalking prostitute apart from being less attractive and more disease-ridden?
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Exactly - if the MSM used 1% of the effort they are using against Obama and applied it to Cheney...
...well then maybe they might find some REAL conflicts of interest. Not these flimsy 6-degrees-from-Kevin-Bacon "relationships".
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #92
112. most tv reporters are little more qualified than O'Reilly, who started out on Inside Edition
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Baby Snooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
93. Guilt by association?
Shame no one bothers to really look at everyone the Clintons are associated with. Directly. Some of her major supporters around the country are some of the most corrupt and the sleaziest individuals who could care less about Democratic principles, let alone Republican principles, and only care about the oligarchy.

Like Georgette Mosbacher said, it's all about the money, honey. That was in the 1980s. The Republicans discovered "neo-conservatism" and what has really become the Republicrat Party. And then the Democrats discovered it. And they all adopted PT Barnum as their patron saint. "There's a sucker born every minute."

If there are any real values left in America, Hillary Clinton will lose in every remaining state. And Nancy Pelosi will be retired in November.

Time for the people to stand up for the people. Instead of the corporations buying the people who claim they speak for the people.

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Willo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
94. Excellent. Thank you very much, Grantcart.
I'm rabbitchasing all over the place. Not that I didn't have enough windows open already.

So much work to do, so much to learn and so little time.

:thumbsup:
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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
97. Never let anyone tell you that words don't matter.
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YDogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. ramen
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. thanks
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kwyjibo Donating Member (612 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
100. K&R
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PragmatismRules Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
101. Future President of what country? Kenya?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. thanks for the kick
what kind of pizza do you want/

You know that to be an effective disrupter you can't be so blatant
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. W...T...F
New Dixiecrats strike again!
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #103
104. with the hidden profile - how can you tell if he is even still around
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #104
106. well, whenever I see a post such as that I just alert with
these simple words: ((((freeper alert!)))))
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colorado thinker Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #101
113. Idiot . . .
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Ice-9 Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #101
122. You're disrupting
poorly.
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washingdem Donating Member (467 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
107. How long has he known Jonathan Livingston Seagull?
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
108. Where did you steal this OP from
without attribution?

It is the most twisted typical manipulation of historical fact with issues which are totally unrelated.

Robeson's denials are a testament to the man. Obama wasn't sworn in, isn't facing civil contempt, nor doing ANYTHING but being politically expedient. He threw his Pastor under the bus when he had to. It's the Obama way.
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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. Pathetic.
Obama very clearly and specifically did NOT throw his pastor under the bus. How could you miss the distinction between rejecting the words but not the man?

You have completely missed the point of both the thread and current events. You do a disservice to the faith you represent. Cut it out.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #109
115. No my friend
you have missed the point because you have no clue as to what it meant to be sworn in before a body of Congress and the possible punishment for appearing and not cooperating.

If you understood those fine LEGAL points, as those of us who took an oath to the Constitution do, then you realize any analogy between Obama and Robeson is OFFENSIVE! One stood his ground as a patriot, the other has his actions scripted by a strategist, with no consequences.

So, YOU cut it out.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #115
118. If you think that the tactic of guilt by association is only operative when you
are sworn in then one can only hope that your legal representations are better than your historical analysis or your rhetorical skills. And your trodding out of your legal degree in every post is tiresome and pedantic.
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ClericJohnPreston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #118
149. The use of an awkward analogy
is still deserving of ridicule, genius.

Lets start with your admission: Guilt by association.

Um, is that association okay if it is like the Kevin Bacon game, six degrees of separation? There is nothing even remotely similar to Robeson's denials and those of Obama. In fact, according to you, there are no denials from Obama. Your twisted logic is to ennoble actions of Obama by a false comparison to Robeson.

Sorry, no dice. There is no relationship whatsoever between the two.

Try again O mighty bomite.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #149
150. You claim it's a bad analogy. If so, shouldn't you identify the flaw?
Why do you think there is any difference between what they did during the McCarthy hearings and what they are trying to do to Obama?

If there is something that makes the analogy inappropriate, then shouldn't you be able to explain why, specifically, it's wrong?

I have a family member that makes the same argument that you are making, yet he also cannot identify any specific differences.

Can you?
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #108
147. lol I missed this one earlier
IN the same reply you accuse me of stealing an opinion piece


and then of manipulating historical fact.


Shouldn't those be 2 different attacks I mean when you accuse someone of stealing it you are implictly stating that it is too well written for their level intelligence (which is the typical type of personal attack that you engage in), and that doesn't really harmonize with the charge of poor historical representation.


By the way the sentence:
quote
It is the most twisted typical manipulation of historical fact with issues which are totally unrelated.
unquote

is gibberish.

You have interested the word 'typical' with out referring to what it refers to. Typical of what? Historical comparison in general or my posts in particular? Of course since you are making a specific reference you must have examples of other instances that you have compared it to and will be able to cite them in your reply. How is it twisted? What fact has been taken out of context? When you say that the issues are unrelated what issues are you talking about that are not related?

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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #108
161. lol yes and Obama was standing and Robeson was sitting what other differences do you want to cite?

That is why it is called an analogy. The issue is not the person answering the charge (although the responses are informative) its the tactic and who is using it. The issue is using an association to establish guilt. The Robeson story (as well as others from the 50's) is on point (try and remember what they taught you in law school).

This tactic was widely used by the moderators and by the transcript above by Clinton. It is the oldest and dirtiest of the right wing to attack progressive leaders because by definition they come into contact with other progressive people who the far right finds easy targets.


As to taking the story without attribution. This just shows the pettiness of your attacks. Since it references events a few days old we can assume that it is not yet published. Do a google before you slander.
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colorado thinker Donating Member (676 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
114. Brilliant! Bravo!
Thank you.
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Robeson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 08:17 PM
Response to Original message
116. Well, this is an easy recommendation. It brings a word to mind, ....
...that so many cynically believe one can't have anymore. That word is integrity.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #116
119. great moniker - hadn't noticed it before.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #116
120. since you seem like an authority you may want to visit #116 up thread
who believes that the analogy using Mr. Robeson constitutes sometype of intellectual fraud.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
117. Thank you -- Recommend . . . and it's so worthwhile remembering that Era . . .
Edited on Sat Apr-19-08 08:22 PM by defendandprotect
the McCarthy Era which Molly Ivins described as "an attack on the ideals of democracy" . . .

It's also so worthwhile to remember Paul Robeson -- a fantastic man who I'm sure they recognized as their feared "black Messiah" . . . he was phenomenal in every way. A man of immense courage, attacked by his own government. It's been quite a while since I read about him, but thru his music and his studies of music around the world, he understood the human connections traceable thru music and was making that clear. Additionally, Robeson was such a giant of a man, so a symbol of excellent and pride in his many fields that he could not be allowed to stand as an example of what talent, elegance, grace and intelligence the people of his race were capable of.

As for HRC, she has behaved like a snake in regard to Wright and the ABC questioning.




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noel711 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
121. Send this to Keith..
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #121
160. tried not sure I used the right email
I wonder if they ever look in here at all
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Ice-9 Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
125. K&R
This was a superb post. (The "R" is in spirit for now.)

Although I suppose I understand why people of good faith would want to ask Senator Obama about his prior relationships, I agree that this line of questioning is beginning to have a HUAC feel. And some of the questions (e.g., "Does Rev. Wright love America as much as you?") are smarmy and do not even appear to have been asked in good faith.

Mr. ROBESON: I say that he is as patriotic an American as there can be, and you gentlemen belong with the Alien and Sedition Acts, and you are the nonpatriots, and you are the un-Americans, and you ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

:patriot:

As you point out, it's interesting that HUAC took aim at the American Crusade against Lynching but never thought to ask whether lynching itself was an un-American activity. I guess we can live with extrajudicial slaughter by hooded terrorists, just as long as they're not communists.

:puke:
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Coexist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. what Ice-9 said.
KnR.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. Of course he should have been asked about Dr. Wright
and he was and he answered it in a very thorough way already.

Given the fact that environmental changes have led to increased diversion of food to bio fuels and that has increased world food prices and this month has seen food riots in different parts of the world it is ridiculous to bring it up again - and I know that you agree.

Other questions like - how much a person loves the country or asking about lapel pins (especially when none of the mods are wearing one) is just a continuation of the double standard that has existed from the begining.
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
128. Glad that I finally gave this post a look
A++ :toast:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #128
138. glad you stopped by
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
129. Great Post! Thank You!
K and R
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
134. Just came back to read this a second time
Just as rewarding and sharp as it was on first read. Bravo.

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Fyddlestyx Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
137. Excellent post! K & R
:kick:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #137
144. thanks and welcome to DU
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dmr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
139. Great perspective. This sums up not only the debate,
but the last 8 years as well -

How many of us have curbed our own free speech just to keep the wrath from falling down upon us. From being warned by the WH to watch what we say all the way to illegal wiretapping.

It's hard to swallow knowing that "they" are now doing this kind of ambushing so openly - as opposed to quietly behind closed doors.

How many of us, in our lifetime, could be grilled or accused of something on the basis of guilt by association? Good grief, maybe this old lady should be in jail, I once knew a stick-up man!

Thank you for an excellent essay.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #139
142. We have someone who will not bend - he may be wrong but when it
comes to decency and constitutional principle he will not bend
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
140. And the media went right along with it.
Edited on Sat Apr-19-08 11:42 PM by Major Hogwash
Stephanopolous and Gibson claim they didn't do anything wrong.

Hillary doesn't see smearing Obama with any association as a wrong thing to do.

And yet some people think she should be President.

I don't even think she should be in the Senate.

But, then, that's just me.


This is a really good post, grantcart.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #140
143. before the debate they must have thought that they were so clever
It will be interesting to see how an industry that is declining (broadcast news vs cable) can suffer the kind of hit that ABC news is going to get from this and not feel it big time.

I would say that I would boycott it but I haven't watched broadcast news in so long a time I don't even know what channel they are in.

Thanks for stopping by Major.
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #143
145. Russert won't even criticize the debate tomorrow on his program, and he's the chief editor for NBC!!
I'll bet you a dollar Timmy boy will use footage of it to bash on Obama, though.

Broadcast news has gone downhill so fast, it's like a pair of fat twin brothers doing cannonball splashes into a kiddy pool - there's nothing left but the bottom.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-19-08 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #145
146. No he won't -- this time everyone is going to have their Sunday School clothes on
tomorrow everyone is going to be extra extra careful and fair.

Nobody wants to be accused of doing something stupid that effected the PA primary.

ABC got 20,000 replies on its web site and they know that for everyone of those replies there are 50 people atleast who are pissed but don't do anything. They will all be shit scared tomorrow. There will be some polite criticism of the debate and then a lot of discussion about the campaign and the issues.


I think the number one topic will be the viability of HRC campaign now that she is not going to have a landslide in PA.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
148. I'm thinking another K&R is just what this post needs!!!
Excellent work, Grantcart!!!!!
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #148
151. Thanks for stopping by
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
153. Kicking this excellent post
:kick:
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
154. It should be known that Paul Robeson was indeed a communist.
And there's nothing wrong in that at all! He was a party member for decades, but had to conceal it for legal and for strategic reasons. He was not "duped." He honestly supported Leninism and the Soviet Union.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #154
155. You are right that he was a communist sympathizer. I also think that he was 'duped'
about the progress in the Soviet Union and the oppression there. I think you would be hard pressed to find a single American communist or communist sympathizer that had a realistic view of Stalin. What years was he actually a member of the party?

Silvermaster was also a Soviet spy.

Robeson's affection for communism was directly tied to the fact that at the time American communists were the most vocal about the oppression of blacks in America. It is a matter of speculation of how sympathetic to communism he would be if the apartheid like reality of Jim Crow did not exist or if he had seen the real oppression of the Soviet Gulag.


In any case none of this has to do (and I know that your reply does not suggest it does) with the facts or the analogy that is central to the OP. The issue is simply that of trying to destroy people by guilt of association. Robeson was chosen simply because his statements to the committee are on point to the point I was making and quite frankly because the transcript is accessble on the internet. The attacks on people by the HUAC included many that had no relationship, a passing relationship, a former relationship with someone. The point of the OP was to contrast the willingness of the two Senators in adopting a tactic that has long been used to attack progressives.



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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-20-08 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #155
159. OK,.
Point taken. I just don't like any insinuation that Robeson was not a communist, because he was, and he was proud of his Stalin Peace Prize and loved the Soviet Union, though he indeed was aware of its shortcomings. Indeed, he was aware that at least one of his friends was executed by the NKVD during the 30s. He knew it, but still supported his cause. It was a critical time, and many opted to support the Soviets as the best anti-fascists at a time when it seemed that world capitalism had decided on the fascist road. Who wouldn't choose socialism over fascism, except, that is, for fascists?
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