Obama is Of Two Minds When It Comes To "Free Tibet!"

[2rth2pwr]

Obama has not followed Clinton's lead in calling for an opening ceremony boycott to protest China's human rights abuses in Tibet and Darfur...


http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/04/as-chicago-bids.html
...Obama never once mentioned the Olympic Games in his response.

He did say the United States has not been "consistent enough and tough enough" toward "pushing (China) to deal with Tibet properly."

In a paper statement released on Monday, Obama said there "should be consequences" if the Chinese government does not take immediate steps to respect the human rights of the Tibetan people.

In reference to Sudan, Obama sounded a similar note, asserting, "We have to take a stronger stance. We have to take a stronger stance and it's got to be more consistent over time."

The junior Senator from Illinois has a particularly tricky balancing act when it comes to the subject of the Olympics: Chicago is vying to host the 2016 games and one of Obama's top campaign advisors and close friends, Valerie Jarrett, is the vice chair of Chicago's bid committee.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/340351,CST-NWS-oly13.article

[Skip Intro]

1. His specific and detailed positions are what draw me to him...

...:rofl:

[hisownpetard]

3. ...as opposed to Hillary's positions of certainty, e.g. I centainly am FOR this war!

[rodeodance]

7. and BO funds the war

[hisownpetard]

8. ...and Hillary can't even fund her own campaign.

[Cant trust em]

54. and you dodge the point

Are you for Hillary supporting the war or not? Don't try to change the subject on me (or the poster who I'm referencing).

[Skip Intro]

66. You're the one trying to change the subject.

But this thread was about Obama's eerily bush-like non-positions on the Olympics. Where not one spcific stance was taken. He talked in broad, almost meaningless terms to describe his position. Come to think of it, Hope and Change aren't all that specific either.

So I feel free to answer your dodge of a reply with a question, do you not have a problem with Kerry campaigning for Obama.

He voted yes on the IWR as well.


Beyond that, I am not familiar with the quote, if it is a quote, that you atrribute to Hillary.

I do know that she said in her floor statement that it was not a vote for pre-emptive, unilateral war, which was exactly what bush did. So I don't think she was "certainly for FOR this war. But if we are going to take those quotes, we can surely consider Obama's quotes that he didn't know how he would have voted, and then his offensive justification that he only said that, among other things, for purely political reasons - meaning he sold out his supposedly deeply held convictions against the war for poltiical expediency.

[Cant trust em]

68. I wasn't responding to the OP. I was responding to rodeodance's point

that Obama is still funding the war. That point was in response to Clinton voting for the war in the first place. It always bothers me when in response to one claim against a candidate, someone else tries to say, well you guy did something else over here. But we weren't talking about that over there, we were talking about this over here. I just want proper answers to the questions posed. Not deflections.

But back to the OP, Obama actually has a full statement on the Olympics.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5440049&mesg_id=5440049

This is a much more detailed response that took time to craft. Moreover, the article posted in the OP had this to say about Obama's response to China:

"It's very hard to tell your banker that he's wrong," Obama said, after talking about the need to restore America's stance in the world, "And if we are running huge deficits and big national debts and we're borrowing money constantly from China, that gives us less leverage. It give us less leverage to talk about human rights, it also is giving us less leverage to talk about the uneven trading relationship that we have with China."

Seems like a pretty detailed example of what we need to do with China to me.

So I hope that gets to the question you were asking me. Since what I commented on was about rodeodance, and not the OP, I don't feel like I was changing the question. Let's talk about Kerry and Clinton's votes for the IWR after we've hashed out this olympics stuff. I like having to touch on only one subject in a thread.

Thanks.

[Skip Intro]

69. Oh man. That was a reply to your post which was in reference to the Op: Obama, Tibet, the Olympics.

"It always bothers me when in response to one claim against a candidate, someone else tries to say, well you guy did something else over here."

That is exactly what you did by bringing up Clinton.

It's right there, look at it.

"I like having to touch on only one subject in a thread."

The subject of the thread WAS Obama's "detailed" response to the Olympics/China/Tibet issue, about which he said yesterday, I believe, that he was of "two minds."

You are the one that brought up Clinton and Iraq.


I would love to see a thread on the difference between Hillary's vote on the IWR and Kerry's.


If you don't start one, I will.

[Cant trust em]

73. I think I see what's going on here

hisownpetard brought Clinton into this.

rodeodance responded with Obama's continuance of funding the war.

Then I, cant trust em, butted in and responded that rodeo was changing the subject.

[Skip Intro]

74. You are correct.

You didn't change the subject, that was another poster.

My mistake.

Apologies.

[Cant trust em]

76. I'm all for good discussion. Even if it isn't mine.

:toast:

[JoFerret]

77. Barack O'Bush (lite)

...there are similarities.
But the preponderance is with the differences.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Considering Clinton signed the IWR...

isn't it kind of hypocritical for her to boycott the Chinese Olympics on the basis of human rights violations?

[redqueen]

10. Yeah but she thought that Al Qaeda had ties to Iraq...

She's obviously easily confused...

''I think that Saddam Hussein was certainly a potential threat'' who ''was seeking weapons of mass destruction, whether or not he actually had them.''

''There was certainly adequate intelligence without it being gilded and exaggerated by the administration to raise questions about chemical and biological programs and a continuing effort to obtain nuclear power.''

Should we really be so hard on her?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. LOL

Maybe the Chinese are just looking for Tibetan WMDs.

[kwenu]

4. No where near as tricky as understanding the relevance of the Olympics to the things we care about.

[rodeodance]

5. hillary is referring to the opening ceremony only. get that straight please

[kwenu]

14. Ummn. I still don't care. Personally, I find it arrogant and politically expedient..

for a politician to tell the US Olympic Committee what it will and will not allow these athletes to do. They are not children and they have earned the right to go and participate in a worldwide event that is acknowledged as an event to promote world peace. If we think China is wrong on Tibet, then say they are wrong but quit being a TOOL by using the athletes as a tool.

[PBS Poll-435]

49. Maybe we should have a caucus of the athletes

Instead of you speaking for them...

[PBS Poll-435]

11. Do you not understand how important the Olympics are

to China? This is real leverage we should be using. Pelosi is right about this, Hillary is right about this. Obama isn't sure.

[kwenu]

15. Read my post above please. I don't care for leverage on someone else's back.

[PBS Poll-435]

17. Then just give up.

We should never us advantages in a battle at all.

[Usrename]

24. Damn, you're right! What are they all thinking?

Of course boycotting the opening ceremony will fix everything! It's not just a distraction, it's where the real power lies!

:crazy:

[PBS Poll-435]

34. I guess you don't know how long and how hard

China has been lobbying to even get the Games.

Negotiation is almost never won or influenced by a direct show of force. It's a little nuanced.

China will do almost anything for the Olympics to go off withougt a hitch.

[Usrename]

75. Do you really think they will be intimidated by us?

The US torture regime getting all up in their grill over human rights. This would be funny if weren't so sad.

[kwenu]

31. This is not a battle. If it were a battle we would take serious economic and diplomatic action

against China. This is a cheap shitty ass way to score political points on the backs of athletes who have worked damn hard to compete in those games. If they want to boycott of their own free will, then fine. But Her Highness Hillary can go take a long walk on a very short pier. Obama can go with her too if he agrees with this silly shit.

Shame on Hillary and Pelosi.

[PBS Poll-435]

35. You have no clue.

China should never have been awarded the games in the first place. It is as offensive as the Berlin Games.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PBS Poll-435]

38. Yeah...again you prove that you have no clue

Hillary said the athletes should stay home. Not complete. 1980 all over again, right?

That is not what she or Pelosi said.

[kwenu]

43. Did you say that about Hillary and Pelosi?

I didn't. You must be pulling it out of your behind...again.

[PBS Poll-435]

45. What?

We are really having a communication problem.

1 - Progressives in the US Gov't realize that now is the time to strike on this issue.

2 - They are not going to steal the dreams of American athletes by boycotting the Games like in 1980.

3 - This is real leverage, and the whole world is watching. If we can help Tibet and Taiwan without any more bloodshed, isn't that the right thing to do?

4 - You apparantly think that threatening to boycott the opening ceremonies is awful and arrogant.

[kwenu]

53. I think that the U.S. Govt. banning our athletes from participating in the opening ceremonies is

awful and arrogant. If the athletes choose to boycott on their own, fine.

[PBS Poll-435]

55. It's a good thing you aren't in charge, then

No one negotiates for anything if they have nothing to lose.

[kwenu]

58. It's a good thing you aren't in charge either. One George W. is enough.

Apparently, you and ole George are really okay when it comes to using the little people to carry out your political goals.

[PBS Poll-435]

60. LOL...I think that human rights

Are a little more than just "political goals."

You are stuborn and shortsighted on this issue. And you have a potty-mouth.

;-)

[kwenu]

61. I love my potty mouth.

And you can kiss my ass. :kick:

[PBS Poll-435]

63. Another brilliant response.

:eyes:

[kwenu]

65. I thought it was a cute response. Didn't you see the little Democratic Donkey?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. Yes, I do understand how important the Olympics are to China.

Guess what's more important to China? The economic output of Guangdong. Shit, the exports from factories in Shenzhen proper, let alone the rest of the province. You can harumph all you want, but they still won't give a fuck unless something threatens that. And nothing's going to threaten that, is it? Nothing will be done in real terms. We'll make a pointless gesture, the Chinese government will be upset over losing face, and the entire thing will be forgotten exactly two weeks after the closing ceremonies. And people will still be dying in Tibet because nobody dares tie China's export abilities to its human rights record. For reasons that should be obvious.

[PBS Poll-435]

37. And what do you think they are trying to do?

[kwenu]

41. If "they" is Hillary they are trying to score cheap political points.

[kwenu]

39. Yibbehobba wins the "I know what I'm talking about Award!!!"

:yourock:

[PBS Poll-435]

40. ITA!!!

Just start spouting off Chinese Provinces! Then you can appear "in-the-know."

The time to settle Taiwan & Tibet is now.

[kwenu]

44. Then take your ass over there and go to battle. Leave the athletes alone.

And take Hillary with you.

[PBS Poll-435]

47. Wow....

The threat of a opening ceremonies boycott is worse than a Chinese invasion of Taiwan after the Olympics are over. I see.

[kwenu]

51. Oh no. Not the U.S. military. Just you and Hillary.

Even better. Drop Hillary off in Iraq so she can fight the war she voted for.

[PBS Poll-435]

52. Still having a communication problem, I see.

I said nothing about the US Military.

What I did say is that you view the threat of a boycott of the opening ceremonies as worse than mainland China invading Taiwan after the games are over.

[kwenu]

56. I know. I said that. Why don't you get up and walk around so your brain will get some air.

It's probably tired from you sitting on it all day.

[PBS Poll-435]

57. It is not me that I am worried about.

I don't know why you would attempt to deflect a reasonable arguement with some cheap shit about Iraq

Once again - It is more important for the US marches in Opening Ceremonies then to safeguard future security for Taiwan & Tibet

[kwenu]

59. One isn't tied to the other. And they won't become tied just because you wish it so.

:eyes:

[PBS Poll-435]

62. It is alright...I will slow it down for you.

When do you think China is most likely going to compromise and achieve a solution for human rights in Tibet & sovereignty in Taiwan.?

BEFORE or after the Olympics?

Take 30 seconds (like on Jeopardy) before you blurt out an answer.

[kwenu]

64. The answer is NEVER, unless forced to with strong economic sanctions or actual military force.

China believes in heart and mind that Tibet and Taiwan is theirs. They will defend it with their power which is considerable I might add.

[sudopod]

70. I know this is technically against the rules

But we have a live one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3261628&mesg_id=3262032

For the laughter and edification of all, H and O alike. ^_^

MODS: if you feel you should nuke this post, I understand. ;)

[FrenchieCat]

6. Why should Obama "follow" Hillary's opinion?

Personally, we can do all of the "symbolistic" hollering at China that we want, and eek out a couple of victories.....but as long as the chinese government is bankrolling our loans, and we are at walmart buying their products, I'm not sure what our message is; totally mixed, at best.

[hisownpetard]

9. Exactly!

:headbang:

[PetraPooh]

29. Furthermore, our humanitarian record isn't tons better, so for anyone to support

boycotting China's Olympics or Opening Ceremonies, they would also have to support boycotting the same when they are held here. I'm glad to see Obama seems to know that being overly aggressive in the criticism of other nation's isn't necessary or appropriate.

[PBS Poll-435]

42. Wow...

That is just sad.

We totally have the same human-rights abuses as the CPC.

I just hate all the organ harvesting here in the US.

[PetraPooh]

48. That is one issue, there are many others on both sides. I hope you enjoy looking

so narrowly and hypocritically at other nations.

[PBS Poll-435]

50. You think that

Post-1949 China is equitable to the United States with regard to human rights.

You have said enough.

[PetraPooh]

67. Well your point of "post-1949" certainly shows how far & fast we have fallen

to have a nearly equally bad human rights' record as the Chinese.

[PBS Poll-435]

81. If you honestly believe that, well...

I am just sad for you. Do you not love America?

[New Dawn]

13. Good.

As long as the US is brutally occupying Iraq and has 800-1000 military bases in other countries all over the world, it is in no position to criticize the actions of any other government.

[bunnies]

16. Who CARES about an opening ceremony boycott?

What does it prove?! NOTHING.

Where the fuck was she in her capacity of first lady with re: to Tibet? NOWHERE.

This posturing with the Olympics is a TOTAL joke.

Boycott the opening ceremony?! Who gives a fuck? NO ONE!

Its a politically weak and impotent move that insults my intelligence. Suddenly she cares about these thing? Puhleeze.

[Texas Hill Country]

26. it is a very important symbol to MILLIONS of people all over the world.

[bunnies]

28. And yet... It doesnt change ANYTHING.

Its posturing. Nothing more. WHAT did Hillary do as first lady to aide Tibet?! Name ONE thing. Otherwise its JUST WORDS.

[conscious evolution]

79. To the CCP

it means everything.
It brings about what the Chinese call a loss of face.
In China a loss of face is a big thing.

[emilyg]

32. I care.

[kwenu]

33. You didn't spend four years of your life preparing and competing to go.

Those athletes did. They shouldn't be denied any of the experience just because some political shitheads are too scared to take real action against China and instead prefer to do it on the little person's back.

[emilyg]

71. Our boycott of opening ceremonies will not affect athhletes.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

18. This is idiotic.

China has most-favored-nation trading status. Fucking with the opening ceremony of the Olympics is a ridiculous and totally pointless gesture that achieves nothing.

[MethuenProgressive]

19. He always comes down hard on all sides of an issue.

Dishonesty has provided him with cover on every issue.

[mckeown1128]

46. uh oh.. he has taken a stand and your smear is ruined.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5440049

[johnnydrama]

21. Clinton's lead?

You sure it's not Pelosi's lead?

[tishaLA]

22. The opening ceremonies boycott is, in fact, a difficult issue

For one thing, the US, with Guantanomo and Abu Ghraib, has very little standing to complain too much to anyone about human rights violations. For another, a boycott would do little if anything to change China's human rights stance. China also owns a disproportionate amount of US debt; a boycott could go a long way toward further undermining the American economy.

[2rth2pwr]

23. It’s hard to believe that a President Obama would ever get tough with China

given his view that China is the world’s banker and “it’s very hard to tell your banker when he’s wrong.”

[FrenchieCat]

27. But once you have an alternate banker/bank, then you can

tell your banker to go to hell, or at least get them to do what you want them to do.

[SoxFan]

25. Olympic boycotts don't work

Other than the Yugoslavian basketball team, nobody benefitted from the 1980 and 1984 boycotts.

That said, I do agree with Senator Clinton's call for the president to stay away from the opening ceremonies.

I say we give all of the American athletes Tibetan flags and have them wave them right in the face of the Chinese gerentocracy.

[gcomeau]

30. You understand why we have the olympics at all, right?

Taking your ball and going home over a political dispute, no matter how serious, is the polar opposite to the entire spirit of the games. Olympic boycotts are juvenile and pointless. If you want to make a political statement have the politicians stand up and do it, don't force amateur athletes who have worked their asses off for years if not most of their lives just to get to the Olympics at all to do it for you by having them sit out one of the most profound experiences of their entire lives for cripes sake. If an athlete wants to boycott the opening ceremonies they can do it on their own. if they don't want to anyone who wants to force them to can stuff it, to put it bluntly.

[Frank Booth]

72. I am of two minds, tossing a coin to decide whether

a less conciliatory approach on China is appropriate.

China's treatment of Tibet is wrong of course. I don't necessarily find fault with the Chinese government for its position that Tibet is a part of China, since there is an historical basis for that claim. On the other hand, I dislike the Chinese government's intentional subversion of Tibetan culture by flooding Tibet with Han. The lack of religious freedom is also a huge problem.

That said, I think the "evilness" of the Chinese government is grossly exaggerated in Western media. Spend any time in China, and you'll realize that it's a relatively open society and people are (for the most part) allowed to speak their minds.

This isn't a black/white issue. There are shades of grey, as Obama recognizes. After the past 8 years, I'm glad to see that we may get a president who doesn't have a "you're either with us or against us" mentality.

[DemVet]

78. Sports and Politics should be seperate.

[atal]

80. Boycotting the Olympics is political suicide for either candidate

Let's keep politics and sports separate.

Obama will almost certainly loss the General Election if he called for a boycott. At least we know he will take a tougher stance to push China when he's President. He doesn't need to start now!! It's not his call after all.