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Did Hillary Speak out against the Iraq war before 2002?

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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 09:46 PM
Original message
Did Hillary Speak out against the Iraq war before 2002?
Have I missed something?

excerpt from a campaign stop today in Oregon:

Clinton was later asked about her now infamous 3 a.m. phone call ad and what exactly makes her ready to answer that call when she has, as part of her record, a vote for the war in Iraq. Clinton defended her vote on the war saying voters should compare both her and Obama's records.

“I made a considered judgment, I didn’t make a speech, I made a decision and it was a decision based on my best assessment on what would be in the interest of our country at that very uncertain time.”

"Obama has been credited with foreseeing a troublesome war in Iraq primarily due to a speech he gave in 2002 while he was a state senator, where he spoke out against the war. Clinton said, “I started criticizing the war in Iraq before he did. So, I’m well aware that his entire campaign is premised on a speech he gave in 2002 and I give him credit for making that speech. But that was not a decision.”

Complete article here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/04/05/politics/fromtheroad/entry3996192.shtml

IMO, she seems to be splitting hairs here between a "decision" and "judgement"....but if a decision is based on jugement, can you really say one is more important than the other? AND more importantly, did she speak out against the war before 2002?
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WannaJumpMyScooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. As a constituent at the time, I can
categorically say she was not against the war then, her office told me several times that she felt the war was "necessary"
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
33. I was a constituent too, and I concur
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 04:04 AM by downstairsparts
Also, her offices in DC and NYC stopped taking our calls when we bombarded them with information on why she should NOT vote for the IWR. Did they put blocks on certain numbers, or were there so many of us calling that the lines were overwhelmed? We couldn't get through even to her staff, to voice our disapproval with her anymore.

She did not want to hear us. She only wanted to hear how wonderful she was, one suspects. But then, if she couldn't even take an hour out of her busy schedule to read the NIE report either, why should she have bothered reading our faxes and emails? I mean, she was only our Senator! Why should she bother her beautiful mind listening to our voices, taking our calls?

At the time, there were threads on DU about her beating of her war drums to the point that she was deaf to our peaceful voices, threads about her refusal to listen to us. That's when her mask fell off and we knew who she was.

Anybody who wants to make a case against her could dig into the DU archives of what she was actually saying then, even on the Senate floor in front of her mentor, Senator Byrd, who was opposed to IWR heart and soul. I watched on C-Span. Her attitude to him seemed to be that he was a crazy old antique loon from another century, trembling and out of touch with the country. Now we see who was the leader out of touch with reality.

Archives don't lie, but we know Hillary has based her entire career on lies. Lying to herself too, thinking she has a chance to be president, portraying herself as the "scrappy underdog." It makes you laugh until you think of all the people that have been killed, lives that have been ruined in part due to her lies.

Lies lies lies lies lies. That's her major contribution. That's what she'll be remembered for.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
40. I called both Clinton and Shumer's office at the time - I was brushed off by both...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Exactly right.
Many, many of us had the exact same experience.
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Cooley Hurd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. I also called Congressman John Sweeney's office but...
...they couldn't hear me over the stripper music in the backgroud.:D
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #44
51. Jake Tapper at CBS NAILS: "Clinton Makes False Claim About Her Iraq Record Vs. Obama's "
"In Oregon, Clinton Makes False Claim About Her Iraq Record Vs. Obama's"

April 06, 2008 9:49 AM

In Eugene, Ore., Saturday. Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y., attempted to change the measure by which anyone might assess who criticized the Iraq war first, her or Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., by saying those keeping records should start in January 2005, when Obama joined the Senate. (A measure that conveniently avoids her October 2002 vote to authorize use of force against Iraq at a time that Obama was speaking out against the war.) She claimed that using that measure, she criticized the war in Iraq before Obama did.

But Clinton's claim was false.


Clinton on Saturday told Oregonians,
"when Sen. Obama came to the Senate he and I have voted exactly the same except for one vote. And that happens to be the facts. We both voted against early deadlines. I actually starting criticizing the war in Iraq before he did."

It's an odd way to measure opposition to the war -- comparing who gave the first criticism of the war in Iraq starting in January 2005, ignoring Obama's opposition to the war throughout 2003 and 2004. (And Clinton's vote for it.)

....But even if one were to employ this "Start Counting in January 2005" measurement, Clinton did not criticize the war in Iraq first.

more at the link, Jake nails it:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/04/in-oregon-clint.html



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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #40
57. Same here
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 01:01 PM by SOS
In October 2002, I called and was brushed off too.
My emails went unanswered, not even an auto-reply.
I did, however, receive an email in Summer 2006 asking me to vote for her in the Senate run.

On edit, to address OP -

Ocober 2, 2002 - Obama delivers his speech entitled "Against Going to War in Iraq"

October 10, 2002 - Clinton votes for bill entitled "Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq"

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crankychatter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. not only did she NOT... she gave the Greenlight for Bush on Iran
absolutely nothing has changed

except her rhetoric, pandering to the base she despises.
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. so she really does
think we're all idiots? or have had our memory erased? How can she really say that in a speech and not expect to be called on it?
this is crazy.
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malletgirl02 Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Frank Rich Article
Do you remember the Frank Rich article, the one about one of her problems is that she runs her campaign like it is 1996, before the internet got really big? I don't think she understands the internet,and that pretty much anyone can fact check her statements now.
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chwaliszewski Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
3. sHillary, sHillary..
:puke:
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bobthedrummer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
5. "As War Neared in 2003--Hillary Was Silent" (WillyT thread 3-16-2008)
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. I can't believe that stupid ass is
going there.
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. really..it's like she and her advisors
Edited on Sat Apr-05-08 10:00 PM by RazBerryBeret
have sat down and figured out all the issues Obama is beating her with...
then changing her votes/profile/stands to match his or make herself better..

But she's NOT grounded in reality.

She's UNTETHERED!
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. hilary is in
bush reality.."clear sky initiatives." She's poluting our "fertile Democratic soil with her Scorched Earth Policy".
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 09:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. Here is the speech she says she didn't give, from her senate website (long)
Edited on Sat Apr-05-08 09:59 PM by anigbrowl
Clinton was later asked about her now infamous 3 a.m. phone call ad and what exactly makes her ready to answer that call when she has, as part of her record, a vote for the war in Iraq. Clinton defended her vote on the war saying voters should compare both her and Obama's records.

“I made a considered judgment, I didn’t make a speech, I made a decision and it was a decision based on my best assessment on what would be in the interest of our country at that very uncertain time.”

Ah, yes you did make a speech.


http://clinton.senate.gov/speeches/iraq_101002.html

Floor Speech of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton
on S.J. Res. 45, A Resolution to Authorize the Use of
United States Armed Forces Against Iraq


As Delivered

Today we are asked whether to give the President of the United States authority to use force in Iraq should diplomatic efforts fail to dismantle Saddam Hussein's chemical and biological weapons and his nuclear program.

I am honored to represent nearly 19 million New Yorkers, a thoughtful democracy of voices and opinions who make themselves heard on the great issues of our day especially this one. Many have contacted my office about this resolution, both in support of and in opposition to it, and I am grateful to all who have expressed an opinion.

I also greatly respect the differing opinions within this body. The debate they engender will aid our search for a wise, effective policy. Therefore, on no account should dissent be discouraged or disparaged. It is central to our freedom and to our progress, for on more than one occasion, history has proven our great dissenters to be right.

Now, I believe the facts that have brought us to this fateful vote are not in doubt. Saddam Hussein is a tyrant who has tortured and killed his own people, even his own family members, to maintain his iron grip on power. He used chemical weapons on Iraqi Kurds and on Iranians, killing over 20 thousand people. Unfortunately, during the 1980's, while he engaged in such horrific activity, he enjoyed the support of the American government, because he had oil and was seen as a counterweight to the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.

In 1991, Saddam Hussein invaded and occupied Kuwait, losing the support of the United States. The first President Bush assembled a global coalition, including many Arab states, and threw Saddam out after forty-three days of bombing and a hundred hours of ground operations. The U.S.-led coalition then withdrew, leaving the Kurds and the Shiites, who had risen against Saddam Hussein at our urging, to Saddam's revenge.

As a condition for ending the conflict, the United Nations imposed a number of requirements on Iraq, among them disarmament of all weapons of mass destruction, stocks used to make such weapons, and laboratories necessary to do the work. Saddam Hussein agreed, and an inspection system was set up to ensure compliance. And though he repeatedly lied, delayed, and obstructed the inspections work, the inspectors found and destroyed far more weapons of mass destruction capability than were destroyed in the Gulf War, including thousands of chemical weapons, large volumes of chemical and biological stocks, a number of missiles and warheads, a major lab equipped to produce anthrax and other bio-weapons, as well as substantial nuclear facilities.

In 1998, Saddam Hussein pressured the United Nations to lift the sanctions by threatening to stop all cooperation with the inspectors. In an attempt to resolve the situation, the UN, unwisely in my view, agreed to put limits on inspections of designated "sovereign sites" including the so-called presidential palaces, which in reality were huge compounds well suited to hold weapons labs, stocks, and records which Saddam Hussein was required by UN resolution to turn over. When Saddam blocked the inspection process, the inspectors left. As a result, President Clinton, with the British and others, ordered an intensive four-day air assault, Operation Desert Fox, on known and suspected weapons of mass destruction sites and other military targets.

In 1998, the United States also changed its underlying policy toward Iraq from containment to regime change and began to examine options to effect such a change, including support for Iraqi opposition leaders within the country and abroad.

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.

It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.

Now this much is undisputed. The open questions are: what should we do about it? How, when, and with whom?

Some people favor attacking Saddam Hussein now, with any allies we can muster, in the belief that one more round of weapons inspections would not produce the required disarmament, and that deposing Saddam would be a positive good for the Iraqi people and would create the possibility of a secular democratic state in the Middle East, one which could perhaps move the entire region toward democratic reform.

This view has appeal to some, because it would assure disarmament; because it would right old wrongs after our abandonment of the Shiites and Kurds in 1991, and our support for Saddam Hussein in the 1980's when he was using chemical weapons and terrorizing his people; and because it would give the Iraqi people a chance to build a future in freedom.

However, this course is fraught with danger. We and our NATO allies did not depose Mr. Milosevic, who was responsible for more than a quarter of a million people being killed in the 1990s. Instead, by stopping his aggression in Bosnia and Kosovo, and keeping on the tough sanctions, we created the conditions in which his own people threw him out and led to his being in the dock being tried for war crimes as we speak.

If we were to attack Iraq now, alone or with few allies, it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us. In recent days, Russia has talked of an invasion of Georgia to attack Chechen rebels. India has mentioned the possibility of a pre-emptive strike on Pakistan. And what if China were to perceive a threat from Taiwan?

So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack, while it cannot be ruled out, on the present facts is not a good option.

Others argue that we should work through the United Nations and should only resort to force if and when the United Nations Security Council approves it. This too has great appeal for different reasons. The UN deserves our support. Whenever possible we should work through it and strengthen it, for it enables the world to share the risks and burdens of global security and when it acts, it confers a legitimacy that increases the likelihood of long-term success. The UN can help lead the world into a new era of global cooperation and the United States should support that goal.

But there are problems with this approach as well. The United Nations is an organization that is still growing and maturing. It often lacks the cohesion to enforce its own mandates. And when Security Council members use the veto, on occasion, for reasons of narrow-minded interests, it cannot act. In Kosovo, the Russians did not approve NATO military action because of political, ethnic, and religious ties to the Serbs. The United States therefore could not obtain a Security Council resolution in favor of the action necessary to stop the dislocation and ethnic cleansing of more than a million Kosovar Albanians. However, most of the world was with us because there was a genuine emergency with thousands dead and a million driven from their homes. As soon as the American-led conflict was over, Russia joined the peacekeeping effort that is still underway.

In the case of Iraq, recent comments indicate that one or two Security Council members might never approve force against Saddam Hussein until he has actually used chemical, biological, or God forbid, nuclear weapons.

So, Mr. President, the question is how do we do our best to both defuse the real threat that Saddam Hussein poses to his people, to the region, including Israel, to the United States, to the world, and at the same time, work to maximize our international support and strengthen the United Nations?

While there is no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma, and while people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposed conclusions, I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq. I know that the Administration wants more, including an explicit authorization to use force, but we may not be able to secure that now, perhaps even later. But if we get a clear requirement for unfettered inspections, I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998.

If we get the resolution that President Bush seeks, and if Saddam complies, disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. Regime change will, of course, take longer but we must still work for it, nurturing all reasonable forces of opposition.

If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, then we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise.

If we try and fail to get a resolution that simply, but forcefully, calls for Saddam's compliance with unlimited inspections, those who oppose even that will be in an indefensible position. And, we will still have more support and legitimacy than if we insist now on a resolution that includes authorizing military action and other requirements giving some nations superficially legitimate reasons to oppose any Security Council action. They will say we never wanted a resolution at all and that we only support the United Nations when it does exactly what we want.

I believe international support and legitimacy are crucial. After shots are fired and bombs are dropped, not all consequences are predictable. While the military outcome is not in doubt, should we put troops on the ground, there is still the matter of Saddam Hussein's biological and chemical weapons. Today he has maximum incentive not to use them or give them away. If he did either, the world would demand his immediate removal. Once the battle is joined, however, with the outcome certain, he will have maximum incentive to use weapons of mass destruction and to give what he can't use to terrorists who can torment us with them long after he is gone. We cannot be paralyzed by this possibility, but we would be foolish to ignore it. And according to recent reports, the CIA agrees with this analysis. A world united in sharing the risk at least would make this occurrence less likely and more bearable and would be far more likely to share with us the considerable burden of rebuilding a secure and peaceful post-Saddam Iraq.

President Bush's speech in Cincinnati and the changes in policy that have come forth since the Administration began broaching this issue some weeks ago have made my vote easier. Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely, and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.

This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make -- any vote that may lead to war should be hard -- but I cast it with conviction.

And perhaps my decision is influenced by my eight years of experience on the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue in the White House watching my husband deal with serious challenges to our nation. I want this President, or any future President, to be in the strongest possible position to lead our country in the United Nations or in war. Secondly, I want to insure that Saddam Hussein makes no mistake about our national unity and for our support for the President's efforts to wage America's war against terrorists and weapons of mass destruction. And thirdly, I want the men and women in our Armed Forces to know that if they should be called upon to act against Iraq, our country will stand resolutely behind them.


My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.

Over eleven years have passed since the UN called on Saddam Hussein to rid himself of weapons of mass destruction as a condition of returning to the world community. Time and time again he has frustrated and denied these conditions. This matter cannot be left hanging forever with consequences we would all live to regret. War can yet be avoided, but our responsibility to global security and to the integrity of United Nations resolutions protecting it cannot. I urge the President to spare no effort to secure a clear, unambiguous demand by the United Nations for unlimited inspections.

And finally, on another personal note, I come to this decision from the perspective of a Senator from New York who has seen all too closely the consequences of last year's terrible attacks on our nation. In balancing the risks of action versus inaction, I think New Yorkers who have gone through the fires of hell may be more attuned to the risk of not acting. I know that I am.

So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed.

Thank you, Mr. President.


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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
16. See that?
1. Judgement
2. Decision
3. Speech

and all WRONG!

three strikes, baby...
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anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. This makes me so angry. Does she think we're all stupid?
I had no trouble finding that speech because I can remember chunks of it verbatim. I nearly kicked in my TV screen when I saw her saying that shit back in 2002.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. Then she hurled her book bag and dodged sniper fire!
And said "That's not just a speech, it's a considered decision!!"
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speedoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
9. Hillary = Liar. People who believe Hillary = Stupid. nt
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Sad but True. n/t
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KaryninMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. Why does she keep making false statements that can easily be fact checked?
Does she not realize that these are the reasons so many are losing respect for her? It's bad enough that she voted for the war, defended her votes for the war and has never really apologized for making the mistake of voting for the war (except for her "if I knew now what I knew then commentary which is not the same as saying "I made a mistake and I regret it"). It's like she's sabotaging her own campaign time and time again and as she does, she digs herself deeper into the hole by destroying her credibility, decreasing the chances of growing more support and further chips away at the respect of many Democrats who once really were excited about the possibility of having her in the White House.

What a shame and what a disappointment.
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Mooney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
27. That should be its own thread.
You'd think after getting caught lying five or six times that she would change her tactics.
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. If she stopped lying she wouldn't have anything to say
There wouldn't be any content left, so she's got to keep lying her lies, even if her mind doesn't register them as lies, or just can't stop itself. She must be suffering from some kind of version of Tourette's syndrome to lie like that, like a nervous tic, but unabashedly, and all the time.

I don't even bother to listen to her anymore because most of it, I know, is lies.
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DerekJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
13. Not only did she NOT go against the war.. There are several videos of her defending it.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
14. Hell no! She wanted to kill all the Iraqis with her bare hands!
:D



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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. that frightens me...
but she may need her yellow jacket...
hehehe
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Forkboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:02 PM
Response to Original message
15. You kidding? She spoke out before everyone..way back in the 70's even!
It was amazing. I was there, bookbag in hand, as we all dodged sniper fire on the way to a caucus that didn't count.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. zing.
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. woo hoo...In a state that
didn't count, dressed like Rambo and riding a horse like Paulette Revere...
now THAT is a weird image...

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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. ...
:rofl:

Love ya, FB, lol!

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spindrifter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
24. Something tells me you'll never be able to take the
GOLDwater out of this girl.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. did she ever speak out during the sanctions
of the people of iraq? sanctions is a nice word for genocide
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
56. true. the bushes and the clintons have been pummeling Iraq
for many years now.
they've been tag teaming on the killing of a country.
BCFEE
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Ravy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
26. Since there was not an Iraq war until 2003, I doubt it. nt
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TTUBatfan2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
28. This might be the most egregious thing she's said...
in the entire campaign. Unbelievable.
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Renaissance Man Donating Member (420 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
29. Saddening
It's saddening that people with an internet connection and verifiable links to her lies still support her relentlessly. LOL
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I don't understand that....
Why the blinders? for her I understand she just wants to win at any cost...but as a supporter, how much can you stomach?
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cindyw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:41 PM
Response to Original message
31. Did Hillary Clinton speak out against the war before 2004? or 2005? or 2006?
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BenDavid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-05-08 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
32. What about obama? His record shows no risking his neck for his
beliefs which means he has none. Claiming to be the anti-war candidate, while as a Senator doing nothing to stop the war, should be enough to confirm his hypocrisy. It's not like he's managing a Dairy Queen,he's a fucking Senator-- he could do more to stop it than speaking empty platitudes on the campaign trail.

reminder: Obama did not vote against the war. His entire campaign is built around the notion that he was bravely against the war - yet he never cast that vote.

Where was Obama's big anti-war speech in 2003? Where was Obama's big anti-war speech in 2004, at Kerry's convention? Where was Obama's big anti-war speech in 2005? Where was Obama's big anti-war speech in 2006? Where was Obama's anti-war filibuster in 2007? Was stopping the war worth standing up, Barack?

What makes it worse is you obama folk make it sound like Bush and congress and the American people all wanted peace, but Hillary said "No!" so here we are. She voted with 77 other senators, including Edwards, Kerry and Biden. If Obama had been in the senate, he might've voted with the majority, too.
Still can't get an answer of why Kerry got a pass on his "war vote,"but not Hillary, so I'm going to assume I'm right.

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datopbanana Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. kerry's platform wasn't anti-war in 2004
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #34
42. He had a plan to end the war in 2005
He spoke against the invasion in Jan 2003, and regularly afterwards. He absolutely did oppose the war and wanted to bring it to an end as quickly as possible.

Hillary is the one who was over in Iraq and Afghanistan saying we needed to "stay the course".
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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #32
60. You are overreacting in her defense
but I have become accustomed to it, the Logic is that Hillary is making 3rd grade arguments.
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goletian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 03:59 AM
Response to Original message
35. from her speech, it seems she was reluctant to give bush power, but she caved.
thats where she went wrong. she shouldve listened to that little voice in her head telling her it wasnt the right thing to do. i know it was in there.
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Laughing Mirror Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 04:16 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. if she would have listened to the real voices OUTSIDE her head, telling her No!
She would not be telling more lies today to cover up her bellicose actions then.

She's a liar and a murderess.
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TheDonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 04:52 AM
Response to Original message
38. Is this on tape? "I started criticizing the war before I voted for it!"
ICK
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
39. So is she just George Bush in a dress but smarter?
What is wrong with her. Another lie right out there for the world to see, know and hear.

Does this remind anyone of the current WH occupant? Just say anything you want at any time because thats what the "decider" does.

Move on Hillary, I don't want you messing up the general. Please go back to what you know and who you were, do not take advice from people so stupid they would lead you to a precipice and push you over and then think nothing of it.

Go and find yourself, find your voice and stop repeating the maneuvering of a man who has ruined our country minute by minute for last 7 years.

It is getting very bad now and it's sad really. :shrug: WTH is up here?
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Life Long Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
41. This is another lie. Her speech from the senate floor on Oct. 10, 2002 tells all.
“I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998.

“If we get the resolution that President Bush seeks, and if Saddam complies, disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. Regime change will, of course, take longer but we must still work for it, nurturing all reasonable forces of opposition.

“If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, then we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise.”

Now less than ONE month later on Nov. 8, 2002. Bush got the Ultimatum Resolution from the UN Security Council.

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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
45. Hillary's trying to break Mother Goose's record for fairy tales.
Ths one is especially bizarre. If she was opposed to the war, why did she vote for it? Oh . . . wait . . . never mind. She thought it was for inspections. That's why it was called the "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002."
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Blarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
46. What a lying hack.
She has a reputation for being a liar.
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #46
47. and she seems to be
proving it true.

and the lies are getting easier to debunk...why does she keep doing this?
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 10:16 AM
Response to Original message
48. In her defense . . .
I don't have a dog in this fight - yet -- except for the country. And I'm not a particular fan of Hillary. I was, but her handling of this campaign has been inept. HOWEVER, let me try to explain what I see going on here.

I think was Hillary was trying to say when she said I made a considered judgment, I didn’t make a speech, I made a decision was thatshe was continuing her theme of "Obama makes pretty speeches, but I actually do things." As a disinterested third party reading this, that's what I see.

Had she only inserted the word "just" before the word "make," we wouldn't be having this discussion. I made a considered judgment, I didn’t just make a speech, I made a decision.

Of course, I'm guessing here, but it seems to make sense.

The problem is that people, the media and people who are inclined to dislike her, take her words literally. Or, having already decided she's a "liar," view everything she says through that prism -- assuming she's telling a lie until proven otherwise. That's a problem when you make a series of bonehead moves in a row. The idea that you're a serial liar takes on a life of its own.

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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. There is a little clarification on this this morning...
IMO it makes it worse, but this from ABC News:

"...Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-NY, attempted to change the measure by which anyone might assess who criticized the Iraq war first, her or Sen. Barack Obama, by saying those keeping records should start in January 2005, when Obama joined the Senate. (A measure that conveniently avoids her October 2002 vote to authorize use of force against Iraq at a time that Obama was speaking out against the war.) She claimed that using that measure she criticized the war in Iraq before Obama did."

Wow....
So everyone who voted for the IRW could say .. "starting NOW, I've always been against this war".

just wow...
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. That's called "moving the goalposts"
Very Rovian . . .
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DemVet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
52. Let's rip some of the others over the Iraq War besides Hillary, huh?
"Iraq is a long way from , but what happens there matters a great deal
here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear,
chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest
security threat we face."
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998



"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten time
since 1983."
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb,18,1998



"e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the
U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if
appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond
effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of
mass destruction programs."

Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin (D-MI), Tom
Daschle (D-SD), John Kerry( D - MA), and others Oct. 9, 1998



"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass
destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he
has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D,CA), Dec. 16, 1998



"Hussein has .. chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass
destruction and palaces for his cronies."
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999



"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons
programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs
continue at apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition,
Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the
cover of an illicit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that
will threaten the United States and our allies."

Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others,
Dec . 5, 2001



"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and threat
to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandates of
the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the
means of delivering them."
Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002



"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical
weapons throughout his country."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to
deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is
in power."
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002



"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing
weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27,2002



"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are
confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and
biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to
build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence
reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002



"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority
to use force-- if necessary-- to disarm Saddam Hussein because believe
that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a
real and grave threat to our security."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002



"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively
to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the
next five years .. We also should remember we have always underestimated
the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass
destruction."
Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002



"He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years,
every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and
destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This
he has refused to do"
Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002



"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show
that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological
weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He
has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al
Qaeda members.. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam
Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and
chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10,2002



"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam
Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for
the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
Sen. Bob Graham (D,FL), Dec. 8, 2002



"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal,
murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a
particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to
miscalculation ..And now he is miscalculating America's response to his
continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction
... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is
real."
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA),Jan.23. 2003
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. They aren't running for President though
and are they saying they never said they were for it or against it before someone else?

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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #52
59. Levin. Kennedy, Byrd and Graham voted no.
nt
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
53. If this is true, Hillary has TRULY jumped the sharked...she's...I'd have to hear her say these words
...I just can't believe she comes out after Bosnia and polls showing people don't trust her because she appears to be disingenuous...

Conspiracy theory: Obama and her know she's lost and she's taking all the media hits until the convention while he rolls the country in McSame land building support.
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. I posted excerpts and the article link here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=5405179&mesg_id=5405179

I've been searching for video, but since it's the weekend, it may take a day or so.
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Frank Booth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
58. It only counts if you spoke out against the war AFTER January 25, 2005, at 12:43 p.m.
Edited on Sun Apr-06-08 01:04 PM by Walter Sobchak
And Hillary was the first to do this by vaguely criticizing the war strategy on January 26, 2005. Hence, Hillary was the first to come out against the war.
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RazBerryBeret Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-06-08 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. ouch...that logic
makes my head hurt...
and again, it reminds me of something my kids would say (of course they are 8 and 11)
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