OK...I have to ask - Why the Hillary Hate?

[Taverner]

I support Obama - might as well list any biases right now

But why, why why do so many on OUR SIDE hate her so?

She's nothing compared to the Bush Family

She's nothing compared to Ronald "Fuck the Poor" Reagan

She's nothing like J. Edgar Hoover

She's nothing like G. Gordon Liddy

She's nothing like Richard Nixon

In fact, despite anything she's done, she's not even as bad as your average RW asshole. Not even as bad as your nicer RW Asshole.

She's a fucking politician - and she's good at it*








* that is, when she's winning. She is a sore loser I'm coming to learn.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. 1.2 million dead people in Iraq.

:shrug:

[onehandle]

6. So the Many other Democrats that supported the war and the plethora of Republicans don't count? nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. No, they count too.

Also, private citizens who support the war.

Why?

[polpilot]

62. Pro-War, Pro-NAFTA, Pro-McCain, Pro-Status Quo......................

[Taverner]

10. Yeah, she fucked up bad and that's why I don't support her

But HATE her?

She made the politician's decision, which was the WRONG decision.

She shouldn't be president - but she doesn't deserve the vilification she's getting.

Thankfully, it's not Barack Obama who is leading this - he amazes me every day that he rises above the cheap shots.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. Step back and listen to yourself.

1.2 million dead, but it was a politicians decision.

Huh?

[Taverner]

18. Not deserving of the Nom, definitely

She should not be President

But hated with the contempt you're seeing now? I don't think that's fair. That should be reserved for the real enemy - the architects of this madness...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

22. Uh...

George Bush, Ronald Reagan, J. Edgar Hoover, G. Gordon Liddy, Richard Nixon etc. were all people who made political decisions too.

Sorry, I don't give people passes just because they're members of certain political parties.

[Taverner]

28. No but as a Senator, her record was pretty good, except for the IWR

Don't get me wrong - I do not support her. I just don't HATE her.

Obama's conscience is clear, AND he has been winning the nom without any cheap shots. Every so called scandal he rises above and makes me almost proud to be an American. He gives me hope.

Hillary gives me a bad feeling in my stomach.

But I still don't hate her. She should drop out though...

[JTFrog]

66. Except for IWR? Senator Clinton has been a neocon's wet dream.

WFRA - FEPA - IWR - KYL-LIEBERMAN - PATRIOT ACT - BANKRUPTCY BILL - TELECOM SILENCE - NAFTA - NCLB

Let's keep this a short list of things that have greatly affected my life and the lives of my children.

Where has she stepped up to oppose the things that have most affected our lives while she's been in office? I've got three teenage boys that she has decided to save from video game violence by sending them to the front lines because they've been strangled out of the school system by no child left behind. Not that I could afford to send them to college after my job was shipped overseas.

Please help me out by providing a small list of where she has stood up for them while Bush has run his game on America.

[lwcon]

27. So, you're mad at Obama for constantly voting to fund the war, are you?

Even he says that he might well have voted for the AUMF had he been in the Senate at the time.

The big evil fuck-up was Bush's, for starting the war after the inspections that the AUMF enabled were *successful*.

Yes, I wish that Hillary and Kerry and Edwards had Bush's purported ability to look into people's souls and know that he would take power of the sort that Hans Blix requested the U.S. wield to gain quality inspections, and that he'd begin mass murder and bankrupting our country.

Some of us, myself included, could smell that Bush was an evil fuck. But I can understand that some weren't prepared to assume that the U.S. President was a madman.


___

The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy, now at my new home: Correntewire.com

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

54. No, of course not.

That's like getting mad at clean needle programs.

"Even he says that he might well have voted for the AUMF had he been in the Senate at the time."

No he didn't. He says he might have if he'd been privy to some classified intelligence that showed Saddam was a threat. But there was no such intelligence.

"Some of us, myself included, could smell that Bush was an evil fuck. But I can understand that some weren't prepared to assume that the U.S. President was a madman."

I knew it. You knew it. Hillary knew it too and decided to vote for IWR anyway. Why? Political expediency.

[lwcon]

63. Some questions

Did you support John Kerry? Or was he dead to you because of his AUMF vote?

And how is it that you're more certain of the nature of the info/disinfo that was being fed to the Senators than Obama is?

“You know, I think very highly of Hillary. The more I get to know her,
the more I admire her. I think she’s the most disciplined—one of the
most disciplined people—I’ve ever met. She’s one of the toughest. She’s
got an extraordinary intelligence. And she is, she’s somebody who’s in
this stuff for the right reasons. She’s passionate about moving the
country forward on issues like health care and children.

“So it’s not clear to me what differences we’ve had since I’ve been in
the Senate. I think what people might point to is our different
assessments of the war in Iraq, although I’m always careful to say that
I was not in the Senate, so perhaps the reason I thought it was such a
bad idea was that I didn’t have the benefit of U.S. intelligence. And,
for those who did, it might have led to a different set of choices. So
that might be something that sort of is obvious. But, again, we were in
different circumstances at that time: I was running for the U.S. Senate,
she had to take a vote, and casting votes is always a difficult test.”

Barack Obama, The New Yorker, November 7, 2006

(Note: Actually, he wasn't yet running for the U.S. Senate when he made his anti-war speech, though he continually claims that he was.)
___

The Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy, now at my new home:

Correntewire.com

[Gothmog]

2. I do not hate her

I just like Senator Obama more and think that he has larger coat tails in the general election.

[Zachstar]

3. 4 letters

IRAQ

[BenDavid]

4. could be she has a bigger pair then obama and some of the

obama supporters and they are jealous.:pals:

[40ozDonkey]

17. This is true. I do hate her King Kong balls. n/t

[jgraz]

21. .

[mdmc]

5. I fear the DLC

As a Kucinich supporter, I see McCain / Clinton within the same scope. Corporate candidates. I see Obama in the same light, but at least the man gives me hope.

Thank you for the OP and the chance to discuss:toast:

[bobthedrummer]

58. "Inconvenient truths about the New Democrats, the Third Way, Democratic Leadership Council, etc."

they abandoned the Democratic base decades ago, I don't fear them, I loathe them.

Then I posted a little thread about them to share what I learned. I'm not voting for the RW in the Democratic Party, I won't be fooled again.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2973191

on edit: dropped the word "extreme" in the context of the RW inside the Democratic Party-which is the DLC

[TTUBatfan2008]

7. I don't hate her...

I hate some of her tactics but I'm personally sick of the mudslinging from both campaigns. It seems to have calmed down a bit from the two campaigns lately, which is a good thing. I'm very happy that she targeted McCain. That's what both of them should be doing. They're both raising a ton of money, might as well spend it on the common cause. These elections are so late that most voters have already made up their minds anyway. Let the elections play out but don't campaign against each other. Rather, campaign against Bush and McCain.

[kwenu]

9. I don't hate her either but she is hurting the party. I can understand the strong dislike.

[Iris]

13. I think the party will survive.

ok - you've just made me make my first hopeful remark in a long time.

Happy now? :silly:

[kwenu]

32. Yea!!!

:party:

[OzarkDem]

11. Obama has turned them into Freepers

They don't think any longer, they just hate.

[Iris]

14. I sincerely hope that's not true.

I hope they are young and kind of new to politics and are blinded by their passion and idealism.


Lord knows I have little of either one these days.

[OzarkDem]

A lot of long time DU'ers are drinking the kool aid

Everyone gets caught up in it. They've been living with hating Bush for so long they have to turn their hate towards someone new. Hate is their aphrodesiac.

[Taverner]

15. Not Obama.

He has risen above cheap shots. For the record, I honestly think Hillary can't control some of her own supporters who do the cheap shots as well. She's acting in good faith, even if her supporters (Bill, I'm fucking talking to you...)don't.

[kwenu]

16. Obama has made a number of complimentary remarks about his opponent. Hillary says nothing helpful

in calming the passions. That's what adds to her dislike.

[Taverner]

20. Now dislike I can see

I don't dislike her, but I FULLY UNDERSTAND the many who do. Especially if they are campaigning their heart out for Obama.

But hate? That should be reserved for the worst of the worst.

[OzarkDem]

55. Not at all, and he still dodges hard questions about issues

He doesn't want to commit to a positon on Iraq, so attacks Clinton instead. Pretty sad. How can some people call him "intelligent"? He's pretty dull and predictable.

[TTUBatfan2008]

29. Those in glass houses...

Look in the damn mirror, OzarkDem. You're one of the biggest troublemakers around here.

[paulk]

43. and you base that observation on your one week of

membership?

[here_is_to_hope]

47. I was wondering which 'ignored' that was...n/t

[jgraz]

19. Her relationship to the truth is quite a bit like Richard Nixon

[nebula]

23. because she's a fucking liar?

lied about being against NAFTA, which was signed into law by Clinton himself, lied about being under fire in Bosnia, lied about her role in the Ireland peace talks, voted in favor of IWR, pretends to cry on national television to garner the pity vote, likes to use RW smear tactics, so on and so forth.

but most of all because shes a big fat fucking phony!

[FrenchieCat]

24. I'm too exhausted from Clinton's relentless race baiting to explain....

here David Sirota on why I feel like I do: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2004313756_sirota31.html

[tblue]

51. Thanks for posting that link. Great piece by Sirota. He's so right. And I really resent Hillary

using Rev. Wright as a wedge issue. She could have been such a hero, SHE could have made the big race speech. Think how we all would have united behind her! Instead she opted to play gutter/race politics. I used to defend her, but not after this, and not after she praised John McCain at Obama's expense.

[Yael]

25. She is a liar and out to destroy the party for her own selfish pride

Did I mention that she is a liar?

[meow mix]

26. Tonya Harding Kitchen Sink Strategy

[kwenu]

37. Double Post.

[kwenu]

40. Good point. A lot of this did start with the kitchen sink and the muslim stuff.

[HockeyMom]

30. I don't hate Hillary

I just refuse to vote for her. You can "blame" her nasty campaign and the fact that I lived under her as my senator.

[Neshanic]

31. They both are the same. Either one will not end the war, but when you have

three candidates for president, and they all sound alike, the newest model, face, it-guy will garner the most attention; not on anything he's done. which is basically nothing, but on the fact he's purely a look and new. The two others are older reliable models, one being a Republican with a new moderate engine, but there is a shiny new Vette that's in the lot.

That Corvette gives the thrill, but the payments are the same. Also it is manufatured by the same people that brought you the older models.

He's pretty and new. The others are not.

[BlooInBloo]

33. I used to bitch about the same thing - until her campaign became sleazy and race-baiting.

[Taverner]

41. She's an asshole when she loses

I've noticed that about her...something to keep in mind

[XtraProudDem]

34. No hate here...

I love her.

But she's been beaten.

She'll go on to do some good work, and I'll defend her like I always have. But she lost this one.

[Taverner]

38. Yup. Finally a post I can agree with

Everything you said is dead on.

She's an asset to the party

But she lost - get over it

And yes, I see her doing some good work. Hell, she'd make a fine part of the Obama admin, if she could swallow her pride and see the big picture.

I don't think anyone here would doubt her competence. I just don't want her in control of our military, that's all. She made a big boo boo with the IWR. She belongs in Health and Human Services.

[nichomachus]

35. Criticism is not "hate"

When you oppose her war vote, her cozy relations with corporations, her support of NAFTA, her constant stream of outright lies and stupid statements on the campaign trail, that is not "hate."

People really need to learn the difference.

Perhaps this is just a fallout from the Bush years, where we were told constantly that any criticism of Bush was a result of hate. But it is possible to disagree with someone -- and even to not like them -- without hating them.

However, when you go through a candidate's trash, start whisper campaigns about something his minister once said, make snide remarks about his middle name, or make a big deal over the fact that he wanted to be called by his real name instead of a nickname, then you're tinkering with hate.

[Taverner]

39. That's not what I'm talking about

All the stuff you mentioned, that's all good and SHOULD be discussed.

It's the "Hillary, closet NAZI" shit I don't like.

We're better than that.

[alarimer]

59. It is WAY more than just criticism

some of the most vicious attacks I have ever seen during an election have come from Obama supporters.

And a ton of sexist garbage from them as well.

[Georgie_92]

36. Her dirty tactics, her lies, the mocking and so much more.

[Lucky 13]

42. She's a spoiled brat whose temper tantrum has gone on a few weeks too long.

And I guess we all just have to stand here looking awkwardly at each other until she tires herself out and can be drug out of here.

She certainly has every right to do so.

It's just a drag and wicked embarrassing for all of us, whether you realize it yet or not.

[Taverner]

46. Oh I agree about the tantrum

She needs to drop out yesterday

But is she deserving of hate?

[Lucky 13]

48. Eh. I don't hate her. But I see why you could...

It's the elitism. It's the entitlement. It's the ruthlessness.

It's her SUPPORTERS. GOD, I know they complain about us, but DAMN if they haven't been intolerable lately.

[snappyturtle]

44. You have to ask this? n/t

[paulk]

45. I think a lot of the biggest haters in the "blogosphere"

(though not all) are right wing trolls just trying to stir up shit.

A few on this thread, even.

[alarimer]

60. I have wondered about that for a long time.

And I think it might be true.

[DemGa]

49. BO set the tone from the start

BO ran on Hillary's negatives -- openly seeking advantage from the right-wing attacks on Hillary. The BO supporters simply co-opted those right-wing attacks as their own.

It all comes straight from BO. Many Dems won't forget.

[billbuckhead]

52. Bingo

That and the despicable swifboating of the Clinton's on race in South Carolina.

[dionysus]

57. hermie II?

[Jed Dilligan]

50. Sniper fire. Anyone who would come up with that and actually use it

is delusional or sociopathic.

[Mushroom]

53. Because it's the friggin

shortbus folder for lunkheads and lunkhead-ettes who have graduated beyond latent limpballs tendencies. I can't believe anyone takes this dinky dumbass folder seriously. Lord knows, I've tried. hahahahahahahaha SB:L

[The River]

56. It's The Nepotism

that killed the deal for me. It's undemocratic.
I've had a few close friends who were screwed out of
well deserved promotions over the years because some
ones nephew or cousin or son was given the job
when they didn't even have the appropriate job skills.

If she weren't a "Clinton" I doubt she would even be
a NY Senator.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

61. "She's a fucking politician - and she's good at it*" There's your answer.

I don't hate her, but she is a fucking politician, which is bad enough, and being "good at it", is akin to be "good" at being a shyster lawyer paid by the Mafia.

[ileus]

64. they have no reason to hate hillary....

[Texasgal]

65. I agree..

Sheesh... this place has really gone downhill.

Just for the record before I get jumped on.. I am an Obama supporter. I do not hate Hillary, I simply prefer Obama for many reasons. If she wins the nom I will put my bootstraps on and support the hell out of her.

I am simply amazed at the amount of vitrol here and I cannot for the life of me figure out WHY this poo-flinging is happening!

Whatever happend to being DEMOCRATS and standing together in unity?

[Prophet 451]

67. Some of it is hatred, a lot of it isn't

Necessary caveat: I don't hate Hillary. She wouldn't be my choice but, if elected, I think she'd probably make a decent president.

That said, I think a lot of Hillary supporters, the faction that's taken to her campaign like it was a new religion (and yes, Obama has then too) have assumed hatred where there was really just disagreement, like there was no reason to oppose an HRC candiacy other than sexism and some nebulous "Hillary-hatred" (which always reminded me of the Bush Derangement Syndrome the Right tried to make-believe into existance).

Some people do hate her for various reasons. Some of it is to do with her actual record (such as the IWR); sometimes it's her association with Bill (who was never the universally beloved figure among Dems that Clinton supporters like to think); some of it really is sexism; sometimes it's the way she's been presented (both by her own campaign's missteps and by the media) and some of it is just her personality (through no fault of her own, she just rubs some people the wrong way).

Oh, and she handled the Ferraro incident badly. I'm not suggesting for a second that HRC is personally racist but Ferraro's comments certainly were and HRC's response to those comments was badly managed.

Finally, some of it has come from the way she's running her campaign. HRC has always played for keeps and that's fine but some of her actions (such as her seeming endorsement of McCain) have created a perception, rightly or wrongly, that her attitude is that if she can't have the presidency, no Dem will.