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rhino47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:36 PM
Original message
Whats up with white males?
Edited on Tue May-25-04 01:39 PM by rhino47
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/23/weekinreview/23lyma.h...

I can`t understand why so many are voting repig.
Especially the ones in the working class.Kerry is only
picking up 36% of them shrub 55 %.


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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Edwards and Gephardt are seen as helping Kerry in this area
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Scoopie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. Huh?
Geppy... maybe... but Edwards? A lawyer... a personal injury lawyer... um... nope!
Around here a lawyer isn't "working class." I'm not sure where you live that makes you think that it is!
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rhino47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #40
51. Edwards came from working class.
His message of the two americas is effected with in the working class.
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LoZoccolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. They pit working-class white males against working-class minorities.
Edited on Tue May-25-04 01:39 PM by LoZoccolo
They do this by trying to make it look like they get a free ride with affirmative action and social programs. In this way, they get the white working class to support economically elitist policies, by convincing them that they are an elite over minorities that is being taken advantage of by those minorities.
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rhino47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. sort of the cheap labor conservative strategy?
and spawning hate too.grrr
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bedtimeforbonzo Donating Member (344 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. that's fascism's traditional demographic
what do you expect?
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rhino47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Why do you think that white males are fascisms demo?
Not disagreeing with you merely interested in your opinion.
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bedtimeforbonzo Donating Member (344 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Look at any fascist rally you see on the news
and see who attends.

Fascism was invented and promoted by white men. Most of it's supporters have been the same.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. The same could be said for almost any movement in the Western world
For instance the Social-Democratic movement. Definitely a white male thing.
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CulturalNomad Donating Member (123 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. dumbing down of the american male
arrogance, too much sports, too much video, 'jackass' mentality and distrust of education/intellectual progressiveness and xenophobia
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Scoopie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
41. Bingo!
We have a winner.

Lemme explain.

My father - a white male - raised me on The Who, Buffalo Springfield and Janis, on Gloria Steinem and Linda Ellerbee, on independence, fixin' cars on Saturday, college-is-the-key, football and fine dining. I was the apple of his eye, the prodigy, the tomboy who grew into a thinking adult woman. People are all the same and it's time we shared. You know - I don't remember a bad time in my childhood. I really don't.

Yet... when I married an Arab... he disowned me. He probably votes for Bush now. In fact, I never bet, but I'd lay money on it.

He's living in a society that undervalues him - or so he's told. He saw this after an education and several years' work experience, only to be laid off in the Clinton era and never to be able to find work in his field again. He's moved on, but he's got to be bitter. He probably thinks it was minorities that took his career. Who knows?

He probably also watches Faux News now and thinks it's "about time."

It's not because he's a white male - it's because he's a demographic and he's been targeted, brainwashed and, at least as far as the Bush Administration is concerned, hung out to dry.
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sniffa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
7. it's true.. we're sooo Lame!
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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:43 PM
Response to Original message
8. White males are eager to devote themselves to causes.
I know this from personal, lifelong experience.

Every white male wants to be a hero, a big man. They want to die honorably for the sake of some great cause. They're eager - perhaps too eager - to martyr themselves. The problem is that great causes are scarce, leaving a lot of them subsceptible to macho-bullshit causes, of which the Republicans have PLENTY to choose.
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rhino47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Very good point Monte Carlo.
So it`s sort of a misguided and frustrated machismo.
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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Hey, I grew up with He-Man, G.I. Joe...
Edited on Tue May-25-04 01:57 PM by Monte Carlo
... and I spent a lot of time as a kid imagining myself with big huge muscles and a sword, fighting evil, never backing down from the good fight. I think it's the same with all red-blooded males, but combine that with the weird facets of American culture, and you've got a powder keg.

EDIT: I also think that we all want to be the king, the boss. Why do we favor the tax cuts for the filthy rich? Because when WE become filthy rich, we don't want anybody or anything like taxes getting in our way. So what if we're never going to be rich? That doesn't matter to a boy who loves to fantasize.

So, what are you, anyway?
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RummyTheDummy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. Funny.
Edited on Tue May-25-04 02:55 PM by RummyTheDummy
I'm whiter than snow and a male yet I've never wanted to die honorably for some great cause or martyr myself. Glad you're not painting with a broad brush or anything.
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Monte Carlo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. Oh grow a sense of humor.
And use it. Sometimes with comedy, you have to generalize.
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RummyTheDummy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. Indeed with true comedy that would be the case
Edited on Tue May-25-04 08:48 PM by RummyTheDummy
But then again your ridiculous screed wasn't funny in the least.

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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. White males didn't do well under Clinton
Wages didn't start to inch upward until his last two years, and the gains were minute. Meanwhile, the wealth disparity gap grew exponentially. Clinton failed to address the way the tax system was skewed to rob the poor to fatten the rich.

Business as usual didn't help most white males, who have taken the biggest income beating over the past 40 years, and the DLC Democrats have always failed miserably to address this fact. The GOP has promised them tax cuts, which were mostly undelivered, but the promise addressed their very real income concern. The DLC Democrats have given them absolutely nothing but things that they feel won't affect them one way or the other, like balanced budgets and vague promises of reduced spending.

You want to reach these guys, tell them what you're going to do for them. Don't give them a lot of crap about "fiscal responsibility," because they've learned not to buy it.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Also
Isn't this demographic the staunchest supporters of the war in Iraq? Thar has to be a big factor.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Catt03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Because many white males like the Bush macho image;
power, control, cowboy, "do as I say" rhetoric.

Note: I said "many".
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bbmykel Donating Member (235 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
14. A reaction to having to share economic power
I think white males see themselves as losing economic opportunities/status to women and minorities. The Democrats are the party of women and minorities (and the corollary being that the Republicans are not).
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rhino47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. So what do think would be the best way to reach white males?
I can understand the 1%ers voting repig but how do we reach the
working man?
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. This dilemma is possibly the linchpin of American politics
The question of why white males, particularly in the South, buy into the conservative rhetoric is possibly the most crucial political question today. It is the same group that rushed into the American Civil war.

Most of the posts in this thread have been correct but none offered a comprehensive solution. Somehow, the total answer is escaping us all. I believe that it's something deeper in the psyche of the male brain, something totally primeval and incompressible by the modern mind. Males seem to have a fundamental harshness of philosophy that steers them away for philosophies that believe in protecting and nurturing the less fortunate in society. Their philosophies of "every man for himself" and that greed and self-centeredness are the norms of life, attracts them political policies that are created with the same values. They follow right wing fascist leaders like moths to a flame and don't realize their mistake until it's too late.

(I'm a 68 yr. old male from Mississippi.)
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rhino47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I think you hit the nail on the head ladjf
I also think that some are starting to grasp that if they earn hourly wages and vote repug they are cutting their own balls off.
Its frustrating we cant hurry that process of enlightenment along.
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. A sense of diminishing power.
I believe that males, more than females, are sensing a general decrease in personal power, a feeling that leads them to wards tokenism. They are almost desperate to find evidence that they personally still have the "mojo", i.e. any form of personal power that can be observed by others. The fact is, they really are losing personal powers. But, so is everyone else except the super rich and those in real decision making positions.

After the Civil war, lower income white males formed organization such as the Ku Klux Klan in an effort to stem the flow of opportunities away from white males and to wards black people, particularly black males. They felt that since the Federal Government was involved in protecting the rights of blacks that there was no alternative but to take matters in their own hands. The twist here is that had the Southern white males possessed a real sense of self-confidence, they wouldn't have been concerned about their loss of opportunities to blacks.

Now, the same white males are worried about their opportunities being taken from them by Latinos and by out sourcing. Their response to this is to seek re-assurance from any hucksters that will promise them a better time in the future. These hucksters in include a majority of the right-wing, funde preachers as well as the standard party of of the Republican Party. In Texas, for example, they fully understand that the gerrymandering is a scam that will deny the political rights of so-called minorities while assuring the white people will have definite advantages. It matters not in the least that such practices are known to be unfair, unconstitutional and un-American.

With all the overt jingoism and flag waving, these load mouthed, self-proclaimed "patriots" are the most unpatriotic segment in America. They are rushing headlong toward a theocratic fascist police state.
I can only hope that they don't realize the damage they are causing.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. A couple of ways..........
Propose a BELIEVABLE solution to outsourcing.

Propose a way to level the playing field between imports and exports and make the link to steel having to be imported, and almost ALL car parts imported, Timkin closing, etc.

Scrap the current tax code completely and start over again so most working people won't have to PAY accountants to do their tax return, and you will get the same benefits as businesses. NO MORE SPECIAL LOOPHOLES!

Propose investigation into the cause of exorbetant increases in medicines and insurance rates. Somebody is making a killing and noone seems to know who! uncovering that info would make everyone costs go DOWN.
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mrgorth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. Populism as opposed to corporatism
But the DLC won't let us do it.
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Scoopie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
42. Talk to him
Edited on Tue May-25-04 08:54 PM by Scoopie
This blog is the WORST about making assumptions.
As an Independent, I cringe when (and look on this thread - I'm sure it's here) some yahoo claims it's us "biased white" and (not in my case) male Southerners who screw it up.
No... they don't. They are too busy working or spending time with their kids or, heck, even attending church, to KNOW they are being screwed by the Republi-cons.
How did the Republicans take the South? Easy. They visited and "set" a spell.
What Dems need to do is the same. I think Kerry needs to come down here and duck hunt this summer. White males happen to LIKE nature - hunting is a "macho" means for them to go out in it without all the labels. Most times, they come back with some ugly fish and maybe enough venisen for the family - no more, no less... he's been out in nature NOT out "hunting," but he doesn't want to be labeled as a "tree hugger." Understand?

On Edit: Just so you know, it's the hunters who are starting to bitch about the Bush lack of environmental policies in the South. They are actually out there and see the REAL destruction. They know. Kerry needs to tap into this.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
22. We don't need 'em anymore
Being a straight white male myself, I quite frankly don't get it. However, due to the shifting demographics of this country, we really don't need them as badly as we once did to win elections.

Clinton won in 1992 & 1996 with a minority of white male votes, as did Gore in 2000. Same with Jimmy Carter. What they lost in white male voters, they made up in white female voters, and among racial/ethnic minorities.

Besides, white males are now a minority in this country. They are just like any other interest group in the electorate, as far as votes go. They may have the money, but they no longer have the numbers.
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. oh, please, even white males need help, and these working class ones
that are voting for bush end up hurting themselves. the polls show they may probably vote for edwards and/or gephardt though. so kerry needs to look into it.
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Scoopie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
44. Or Clark...
definately Clark...

But... do the polls even mention him?
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. where are you from?
certain regions of the country have cultures that produce that particular type of white male. Where I am from, CT, white men tend to be more educated, more affluent, and liberal.
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Scoopie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. Hahahahaha!
I want an educated man, who is affluant, but does not wax his eyebrows, can shoot a gun to save my life and can kick most peoples' butts!
No WONDER I'm a Clarkie! He's the PERFECT man!

(sloshes off in gush to admitting this... LMAO!)
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Demobrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
25. This is what's up.
Edited on Tue May-25-04 02:49 PM by Demobrat
Let Them Eat War
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16885

George W. Bush is sinking in the polls, but a few beats on the war drum could reverse that trend and re-elect him in 2004. Ironically, the sector of American society now poised to keep him in the White House is the one which stands to lose the most from virtually all of his policies blue-collar men. A full 49 percent of them and 38 percent percent of blue-collar women told a January 2003 Roper poll they would vote for Bush in 2004.

snip

We should think about this. The blue-collar vote is huge. Skilled and semi-skilled manual jobs are on the decline, of course, but if we count as blue-collar those workers without a college degree, as Ruy Teixeira and Joel Rogers do in their book Why the White Working Class Still Matters, then blue-collar voters represent 55 percent of all voters. They are, the authors note, the real swing vote in America. "Their loyalties shift the most from election to election and in so doing determine the winners in American politics."


This fact has not been lost on Republican strategists, who are now targeting right-leaning blue-collar men, or as they call them, "Nascar Dads." These are, reporter Liz Clarke of the Washington Post tells us, "lower or middle-class men who once voted Democratic but who now favor Republicans." Nascar Dads, commentator Bill Decker adds, are likely to be racing-car fans, live in rural areas, and have voted for Bush in 2000. Bush is giving special attention to steelworkers, autoworkers, carpenters and other building-trades workers, according to Richard Dunham and Aaron Bernstein of Business Week, and finding common cause on such issues as placing tariffs on imported steel and offering tax breaks on pensions.

We can certainly understand why Bush wants blue-collar voters. But why would a near majority of blue-collar voters still want Bush? Millionaires, billionaires for Bush, well, sure; he's their man. But why pipe fitters and cafeteria workers? Some are drawn to his pro-marriage, pro-church, pro-gun stands, but could those issues override a voter's economic self-interest?

More...
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rhino47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Great article thanks !
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
27.  poor White Males
especially in the South and Mountain West, are extremely socially conservative, and they tend to believe in individualism (I can make it in the world on my own). By contrast African Americans tend to believe that they need government protection in order to thrive (they probably get that idea from their experience with Jim Crow), and they tend to be less socially conservative.

It is this social conservatism and sense of self-empowerment that leads poor white males to vote repub. And don't forget the gun issue (which flows from individualism). Southern white men were Democratic when the issues were about economics mostly (pre-Reagan). Once Repubs embraced Christian Fundamentalism and supply side economics, they started to convert.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. It might also have to do with Democrats becoming economically rightist
After all, if one is split between parties because they like the social conservative trend in the Republicans and they like the economically liberal trend in the Democratic party, but then the Democrats go pro-nafta and stand by if not lending a hand to the destruction of unions, then the balance is upset. The Democrats no longer offer what they once did and the voter who was previously split now has a favorite
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #31
48. Excellent point.
If both parties favor shipping your job away but one of them at least pretends to respect your values and beliefs, which one is going to come out ahead?
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
32. They think they deserve to come first before women and minorities
and when women and other minorities benefit from a lessening in discrimination, white men think something they have a right to is take away from them. In otherwords they are still being socialized to think they are priviledged.
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Lefty Pragmatist Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. It's surprising to me
How much tripe people believe on this issue.

White males are identical to any other group: they vote their perceived interest. The GOP has been far more successful reaching this group because they've tried. The Dems have been either sexist/racist (half the posts on this thread) or patronizing (the other half).

Until Dems learn to see white males as merely another demographic group to sell to, rather than the Grteat Satan, we'll get nowhere.
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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
34. This white male is voting for Kerry
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DaveSZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Listen to RW talk radio
The GOP panders to the racist fears of people - white males in particular.

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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
37. Democrats act like wussies.
Can Joe sixpack relate better to J.D. Hayworth or Tom Daschle? Think about it.
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Thrill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Well as a white male
I know that most white men are scared that with a democratic president minority men will somehow become on equal level to them finacially and education wise. It sounds childish but its true.
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JHBowden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I'm a white male too
and haven't noticed that. The topic has never come up. But then again, I'm 25 living in Illinois; perhaps older individuals and/or individuals living in different regions are morely likely to have different attitudes.
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Moloch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #39
49. Most of the white males in the south
love shrub and find his war almost as entertaining as a nascar race.. Also most are closeted racists and see the Democrats as the party of "niggers and wetbacks"...
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
46. We suck
Edited on Wed May-26-04 12:23 AM by PurityOfEssence
I've analyzed it at great length for my many years of voting, and there is only one explanation. We suck, and we have a blockheaded need to shore up our position of power by marginalizing all others by all means possible. It won't work either, because we're no better (or worse) than any other group, and time will even things out. Since we have so many advantages, all of this equalization will be at our expense, and many of us fight this at every turn.

Sorry. It's a bummer and an embarrassment, but I accept my part in this calumny and do my best to thwart my brothers at every turn.

But then, your query was just rhetorical, right? No big news here.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
47. Kerry hasn't made any headway?
Edited on Wed May-26-04 12:45 AM by fujiyama
I'm kinda tired of hearing that.

He's now up in atleast two polls in PA, and other major battleground states. Most election projection maps have him winning.

I also think that Bush will get less of the white male vote than he did in '00. He'll probably still beat Kerry with the white male vote, but by no more than 5% this time -- that is if he doesn't catch Osama.

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Lefty Pragmatist Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-26-04 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. It will come
Edited on Wed May-26-04 01:56 AM by Lefty Pragmatist
... if the DNC can get across just how much Bush has cost white males in the aggregate. What the whiners (right but especially our own left) always forget is that the majority of the rural and poor, who are the most fucked by Dubya, are white males.

If we had somebody even remotely competent driving the Dem message, we would be 50/50 in this demographic. As it is, we have ceded the field and I'm amazed any WM is voting for us.
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