Warning: Mom isn’t going to vote this year.

[Another Bill C.]

She voted for Franklin D. Roosevelt and has been voting Democratic in all elections since then. This year, she’s not voting. Mom is a “devout Catholic” and has been a Democrat since the days when Democrat and Catholic were synonymous.

As with my best friend, I’ve made all the arguments and given her the numbers: 64 executed last year, 10,000 Iraqi civilians killed in an unnecessary war, 800 of our own killed in that same war. The number that overrides all this for her, though, is the 800,000+ abortions each year.

Mom is aware of the sleaziness of the Bush* administration. She knows about the lies, the deficit, the job losses, the environmental devastation, anti-labor policies, and the “survival of the fittest” Republican philosophy. She knows that we’ve alienated most of the world. None of these surmount the abortion issue in her mind.

Mom won’t be changing her mind. One by one, most of my family has gone over the dark side on this issue alone. Given a choice between a crooked or pro-choice president, they’ll pick the crook every time. They’re not alone. This strange alliance between the religious right and the Catholics they love to hate, could mean disaster in the next election.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. Give them an alternative

Who is the Libertarian candidate? Is he/she pro life? Surely there is a third party where the candidate is pro life. Find it and tell you mom about it. That way she can vote her conscience and not help the crooks get back in office.

[Fear]

21. Go on vacation to guantanamo Bay with your mom,

Then talk about choice

[aquart]

2. I wonder how the bishop votes.

[leyton]

16. Well, registration is a matter of public record in some places.

In my county, one can go on the Internet and find out who is a member of what party, if you are so inclined.

[BJ]

3. Without modern science

Without modern science the religious right never would have dreamed up the concept of "life beginning at the moment of conception."

Odd, how science and medicine has been twisted to support superstition

[pllib]

5. in the purely scientific sense

Life does begin at conception - ie, the fertilized egg is indeed, a living organism. (unique genetic material, dividing cells, capacity for growth).

[BJ]

15. Duh-ah. Let me post this again slowly

Without modern science proving that a once a sperm commingles its DNA with that of the ovum religious fundamentalists would never have developed the dictum that "life begins at conception!"

Most prescientific societies posited that life began with the first breath, inspiration, at birth.

Find me one passage from the King James Bible that says life begins at conception and I'll shut up.

[pllib]

4. I am a pro-life liberal - try this argument on her

What does it mean to be pro-life?
What would happen if Roe v. Wade were overturned? Would abortions end? No. There is good data to indicate that there were around a million abortions a year performed in the US before Roe v. Wade. In some states legally, in most states illegally. Why do women have abortion? Although some choose abortion because it would interfere with career or education, many choose abortion because they do not believe they have the means to support the child - they cannot afford the necessary health care, the housing, the food, etc. Many of the abortions in our society our a result of social injustice. For an example of this theory in evidence - after New Jersey placed an "exclusion" on welfare benefits in 1993 (uncertain about exact date) - denying additional welfare benefits above a certain number of children, the rate of abortions in low-income welfare recipients went up. Many of the policies of the Republican party, which have resulted in increased unemployment, increased poverty, and loss of other important safety net resources will increase the demand for abortions. A vote for John Kerry, will, in a paradoxical way, lead to fewer abortions than will a vote for George Bush.

[Hippo_Tron]

18. Exactly, just because it's illegal doesn't mean people don't do it...

Not to mention that there's a fundamental difference between being pro-life and believing that the government should legislate on the subject of abortions. I would venture to say that John Kerry is quite pro-life but doesn't believe that the government should legislate on it.

[salin]

25. very interesting argument

welcome to du :hi:

[sistersofmercy]

32. That's a great argument! Thanks n/t

[rucky]

6. Our party's been pro-choice for years

there must be something else going on.

why the sudden obstinance now - when we need those votes the most?

honest to God, I have never heared of a pro-life Democrat until about a month ago. of all the times to come out of the closet on that issue - after we've had 30+ years to debate it. sheez.

[Another Bill C.]

12. I've been a pro-life Democrat all along.

When the issue first came up I went to a caucus with the idea of arguing against abortion. The first speakers who argued my side were treated very rudely. They were shouted down and ridiculed as they spoke. At the district caucus that year, the same thing happened. I decided I didn't need that kind of treatment so I never went to another caucus.

I don't vote on that issue alone. The only reason I raise it now is to point out the ill-affordable erosion in our voter base attributable to this issue.

[spooky3]

24. But what's the alternative, if folks like your mom will not be persuaded

by your best arguments? Alienating the much LARGER proportion of the base who is pro-choice?

I am afraid that I think the Democrats simply have to write off those voters who are single issue pro-lifers and who are not amenable to good arguments such as yours. Please note that I am NOT arguing that pro-life views have no place under the big tent--instead I am talking ONLY about the person who otherwise agrees with most Dem. positions but is "one issue" in the sense of voting against these other positions because of the one issue. For the party, is not ethical to capitulate to a position that is contrary to Dem. principles, and it is not smart politically to lose 2 or more votes in the hope of getting 1.

[Cheswick2.0]

29. Good thing you'll never have to face that choice

Do you really believe the government should force women to carry pregnancies against their will?

[amazona]

31. there are many pro-life Democrats

At least in the state of Louisiana.

Some are both pro-life for themselves but pro-choice for others because they do not believe in forced pregnancy. Some are pro-life for all but believe that social justice is also a worthy cause. Many of these folks are Catholics. For instance, I have several friends who are Democrats because they believe in a strong public education system but they are pro-life because they believe it is called for in their religion.

That said, these friends do vote, and they will be voting for Kerry. Public school teachers are not too amused at having unions threatened or being called "terrorists" or being required to jump through ridiculous hoops.

[Proud_Lefty]

7. It's too bad

The religious right actually cares more about the undeveloped fetus than the thousands of Iraqi people maimed and killed based on a lie of our representative. Deep down inside, they know better, but a major part of Christianity is faith, not just faith in God, but faith in their church and what they are told about pleasing God. To not back it 100% and even question what the church tells them is flirting with the devil. They're been conditioned for years on this type of thinking. So, you can't reason with them, until the true voice deep down inside finally makes its way to the surface, if it can.

I wish there was a movement out there that let people know God loves Democrats for their humane and compassionate ways in this life. If they can see how much more of a liberal Jesus was than a right wing conservative, they would change their outlook in a heartbeat. But that can't happen without the church's help and that involves big money. It's sad.

[Proud_Lefty]

8. A quick side note

I understood your mother is Democrat, but I was making the point that the religious right wing has instituted this belief that effects a lot of Christians in the U.S. and that's what we're up against.

[rucky]

9. I don't think we can blame the RR on this one

What I see this election cycle has been an uprise of SINGLE ISSUE Democrats who know the importance of this election & are using the power of their vote to forward their agenda.

A closer comparison are the Naderites, the anti-globalists & hardcore pacifists. I actually agree with many of these beliefs, but to be single-issue like that & hold your vote hostage this election of all elections is a selfish power play. it's self destructive.

To say the Catholic church is influenced by the Religious Right underestimates the power of the Catholic Church. Then again, Dems have been taking their support for granted for quite some time - but now is not the time to have that debate.

[elperromagico]

10. Bush Administration policies are not going to lessen the abortion rate.

And neither are the Catholic Church's positions on the matter. As long as the Bush Administration continues to insist upon "absintence only" teaching (read: No Teen Left Informed), and as long as the Church insists that birth control of any kind is a sin against God, the abortion rate (and the venereal disease and AIDS rates too) will remain high.

We must be the most ignorant bunch of people on earth if we think that people aren't going to have sex. The question in my mind is: Do we want to be ignorant of the dangers and risks involved when we go to bed with someone, or do we want to be informed and safe? The Bush Administration and the Catholic Church hierarchy seem to feel that the former is preferable.

And if they think that criminalizing abortion is going to make the difference, they're sadly mistaken. It's just going to take abortions underground and increase the danger to the mother. And what do they intend to do if abortions are criminalized? Arrest the mothers? Let's just fill up our prisons with pregnant women, shall we?

I'd be perfectly happy if there were practically no abortions in this country, but the way to achieve that goal is by informing the people, not by enforcing a policy of ignorance.

[WI_DEM]

11. well at least she isn't going to vote for Bush either

if that is any light at the end of the tunnel.

[cindyw]

13. Every Dem leader since Roe V Wade has been pro-choice.

There is no difference now. Your mother is not being honest. You should start saying that to her and your family. If someone is going to vote on this issue alone then you have to hold them accountable for the lack of caring for people after they are born. It is not just crook v pro-choice. It is sinner (unjust war, lack of compassion, Bush violates Jesus' main tenants all the time) vs. pro-choice (and specifically not pro-abortion and believes in lowering the need to abortion). Just because Bush is not Catholic does not mean that the Bishops do not have a responsibility to pass judgment on him. Let's just ignore the fact that the Bishops do not have a right under God to pass judgment on Kerry, but if they are to become Pharisees then let them be fair.

[ibegurpard]

27. Exactly

I'd be asking just how that makes sense. It's not like the Democratic Party just suddenly announced that their platform was pro-choice.

[sandnsea]

14. Not voting works

If the best people like your mom can do is to convince herself that not voting for Kerry means she isn't actively helping an abortion candidate, then that's good enough. A loss of the pro-life Catholic vote for Bush is nearly as good as if they vote for Kerry. Catholics are 23% of America, the pro-life vote is probably 10% or so. That's alot of votes Bush could lose, certainly enough to give the election to Kerry.

[pscot]

17. How about the "morning after" pill

The FDA under Bush has blocked sale of the drug, which is really a form of contraception which could virtually eleminate the need for those 800,000 abortions. A Kerry administration will almost certainly approve over-the-counter sale of the drug.

















a

[Hippo_Tron]

19. GREAT Argument...

The morning-after pill is a great way to stop the problem before it even starts. Yet, the Bush administration is against it...

[Hippo_Tron]

20. I had a teacher in much the same situation as yours...

She is very liberal and spends a good bit of time reading about all of the terrible things the administration has done and posting such stories for students to read. Her family, on the other hand, are single-issue pro-life voters. No matter how much she tells them about what the Bush administration has done, they will still vote for him because of abortion. My advice is, don't give up, but don't be discouraged if you fail. We can't reach everybody, but we should sure as hell try.

[DaveSZ]

22. There is a concerted effort on the part of many church officials

There is a concerted effort on the part of many church officials to persuade people to vote against Democrats.

They even tell poor people to vote against themselves.

I don't know what to do about this issue to be honest, and it's not going to go away anytime soon.

But it's true that Kerry's policies would actually reduce the number of abortions (morning after pill sold otc, and comprehensive sex ed in schools).

[DaveSZ]

23. On the other hand,

The Catholic Church tried to pull this crap on Mary Landrieu in conservative Louisiana, and she beat her non-pro choice opponent.

BTW,

Tell your mom what Laura Bush thinks of Roe V Wade:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2001/103/52.0.html


The Republicans are clever and use wedge issues like abortion to suck away Christian votes - despite the fact Republican Supreme Courts handed down and upheld Roe.

Then we all know what happens when they get into power.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Here's an argument to try

Most things are against the law--murder, theft, rape, unprovoked assault, vandalism, to name a few-- are condemned by all religions and all secular belief systems. No one who is not a sociopath is going to disagree with banning these. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, followers of Native American religions, Unitarians, agnostics, and atheists may or may not leave some wiggle room in their condemnation of murder, theft, rape, unprovoked assault, and vandalism, but for all of them, the ideal situation is that these crimes not occur.

However, some beliefs are unique to certain religions, such as abortion being a mortal sin, resting on the Sabbath, or requiring women to cover their heads.

If you say that the entire nation follow your position on abortion, even though it is a minority position, what is to prevent an Orthodox Jew from demanding that all stores be closed on Saturday (as I believe they are in Israel) or a Muslim from demanding that all women keep their heads covered in public (as in Iran)? It is as unfair to require all Americans, whether religious or not, to follow your rules on abortion as it would be to force all Americans to accept the prohibitions that are unique to some other religion.

I tried that one successfully on my grandmother back when Carter was running against Reagan--not that it helped Carter that year, but it did work on my grandmother and may work on other people.

[goddess40]

28. Repubs arent' really pro-life

if they were Roe would be gone already. They have the House, the Senate, the White House and enough of the Supreme Court Justices to have it overturned.

[amazona]

30. hmmm

She has plenty of time to change her mind, so don't give up on her yet. Every time the media plays up some story to remind us that Kerry is the boogeyman because he is Catholic...this should give her a jolt of reality of what the GOP really thinks.

One of my friends is a Catholic rightwing extremist who is usually VERY active in campaigning for the dark side. He has told me that he will be "too busy" the rest of this year for any "outside" activities because of his job. None of the bumper stickers, none of the campaigning he usually does...and I know it's because of the way the media have crapped on Kerry for being Catholic.

Now he won't go out and vote for Kerry. But it sounds suspiciously like this one-time hard-shell freeper won't be voting at all.

Only the teachers (the Democrats) in his family are talking about voting.

There is a reason Louisiana is considered to be in play and it is not because the GOP is treating Catholics with any respect.