A serious question for thoughtful Clinton supporters

[grassfed]

I know I've posted this list (which could be longer) a few times but I have yet to see a single sincere attempt to explain this record. Do these votes reflect the views of Clinton supporters? There seems to be a head-in-the-sand narcissism that allows otherwise liberal, civilized people to blithely ignore the brutal realities of Land Mines, War and Torture when it comes to Clinton. Is it because she's a woman and therefore, her supporters assume she couldn't possibly, really, be pro-torture? Do they think it would be acceptable if men were tortured, children maimed by land mines, or families vaporized in Iran during a Clinton presidency because Hillary needed to look tough to get elected?


Hillary voted NO Amendment No. 4882 that would have outlawed the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas.

Hillary voted YES on Bankruptcy bill S.256 depriving help to debtors but then said "I wish I hadn't".

Hillary voted YES on the "Iraq War Resolution: Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq" for an unprovoked illegal war on Iraq.

Hillary voted YES on the Kyle/Lieberman bill clearing the way for Bush to take unprovoked military action against the people of Iran - - as he did after she voted FOR the IWR.

Hillary voted YES on the USA PATRIOT Act to enhance law enforcement investigatory tools, and for other purposes which include the detention of US citizens without trial and prosecution of non-terrorist alleged future crimes such as "eco terrorism" and "animal rights terrorism".

Hillary REFUSED to sign the AFC Anti-Torture Pledge.

(OP not about Obama)

[bigtree]

1. yes,

this is about Obama.

[grassfed]

2. and your view of her record?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. OK

Hillary voted NO Amendment No. 4882 that would have outlawed the use of cluster bombs in civilian areas.

BAD VOTE

Hillary voted YES on Bankruptcy bill S.256 depriving help to debtors but then said "I wish I hadn't".

BAD VOTE but she had lots of Democratic company

Hillary voted YES on the "Iraq War Resolution: Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq" for an unprovoked illegal war on Iraq.

BAD VOTE though she had lots of Democratic company

Hillary voted YES on the Kyle/Lieberman bill clearing the way for Bush to take unprovoked military action against the people of Iran - - as he did after she voted FOR the IWR.

QUESTIONABLE VOTE but I believe you mischaracterized it. Obama's senior senator, Dick Durbin supported it as did many other Democrats

Hillary voted YES on the USA PATRIOT Act to enhance law enforcement investigatory tools, and for other purposes which include the detention of US citizens without trial and prosecution of non-terrorist alleged future crimes such as "eco terrorism" and "animal rights terrorism".

BAD VOTE but NINETY EIGHT! OTHER Senators voted for it


Hillary REFUSED to sign the AFC Anti-Torture Pledge.

NEED to know more about. At first blush torture is malum in se...

[grassfed]

4. Hillary was shocked that Bush "Abused" the Iraq War Resolution

but then gave him the green light to do the same thing in Iran. Not questionable.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. Why Did Dick Durbin Support It?

Iran wants to be a hegemonic power in the M E... Even Obama says that is not in our interest and he will prevent it...

[grassfed]

11. First time the military of a foreign country labeled "Terrorist Organization"

Simplistic accusations about Iranian hegemony is for talk radio. Durbin has a dubious history, and is not Obama.

The National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) concluded with “high confidence” that “in fall 2003, Tehran halted its nuclear weapons program.”

From the report’s findings:
"We assess with moderate confidence Tehran had not restarted its nuclear weapons program as of mid-2007, but we do not know whether it currently intends to develop nuclear weapons.
We continue to assess with moderate-to-high confidence that Iran does not currently have a nuclear weapon.
Tehran’s decision to halt its nuclear weapons program suggests it is less determined to develop nuclear weapons than we have been judging since 2005."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. "Simplistic accusations about Iranian hegemony is for talk radio."

Res ipsa loquitur

"The world must work to stop Iran’s uranium enrichment program and
prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons. It is far too dangerous to
have nuclear weapons in the hands of a radical theocracy. And while we
should take no option, including military action, off the table, sustained
and aggressive diplomacy combined with tough sanctions should be our
primary means to prevent Iran from building nuclear weapons.

Iranian nuclear weapons would destabilize the region and could set off a
new arms race. Some nations in the region, such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia
and Turkey, could fall away from restraint and rush into a nuclear contest
that could fuel greater instability in the region—that’s not just bad
for the Middle East, but bad for the world, making it a vastly more
dangerous and unpredictable place. Other nations would feel great pressure
to accommodate Iranian demands. Terrorist groups with Iran’s backing
would feel emboldened to act even more brazenly under an Iranian nuclear
umbrella. And as the A.Q. Kahn network in Pakistan demonstrated, Iran
could spread this technology around the world."

-Senator Barack Obama

http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2007/03/obamas_aipac_speech_text_as_pr.html

[grassfed]

14. In response to the Kyle/Lieberman bill

that sets the stage for the US to take military action against Iran Obama was compelled to immediately draft legislation stating that Congress did not grant President Bush the authority to attack Iran, either through the Kyl-Lieberman amendment or any resolution previously adopted.

Nevertheless, why would Hillary, so cruelly and unexpectedly betrayed by Bush when he abused the Iraq War Resolution (not to mention 4000 Americans and millions of dead, maimed and homeless Iraqis) give him the power TO DO IT AGAIN? Is that judgment? Leadership? Or base political cunning?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. If Kyl-Lieberman Was So Dangerous Why Didn't Obama Vote Against It?

~

[grassfed]

17. I don't know. This thread is about Hillary

and her supporters who excuse and defend her votes that contradict liberal, humanist, Democratic values.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Res Ipsa Loquitur (Redux)

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/c202.htm

Obama should have voted...By not voting he has surrendered his right to criticize those who did...

[grassfed]

21. I didn't want to get into a tit for tat

I'm just wondering how liberals can support Hillary's record. Obama should have voted on Kyle/Lieberman but was constrained by Muslim whispers etc. Perhaps you feel similar forces obliged Hillary to vote against the Land Mine/Cluster Bomb ban etc but, like Obama, you believe she would ultimately be guided by enlightened liberal beliefs.
If not and, as you said, these were Bad Votes yet you still support her, what are Hillary's strengths that override her "pro-war/torture/cluster bombs in civilian areas record?

If we can keep Obama out of it for a minute - you disagree with these votes but you are supporting her. Why? This is not a trap, I'm not sitting here waiting to expose your hypocrisy. If you're posting here you're most likely an aware, sophisticated (Latin speaking?) person and I'm interested in your rationale.

[grassfed]

24. Question is about Hillary, not Obama

[grassfed]

23. Question is about Hillary, not Dick Durbin

[PM7nj]

13. Yes, unfortunately she does have lots of company...

...but those Dems are not running for President. Obama voted for the Cheney energy bill along with a bunch of other Dems. That doesn't change the fact that it was a BAD VOTE, so I'm not going to try to defend it by saying "well everyone else is doing it too". It is like jumping off a bridge because all your friends are.

[grassfed]

15. OP is about Hillary Clinton. What do you think about her record?

[PM7nj]

20. I'm not a Clinton supporter, so I'm biased...

The OP was asking Clinton supporters about what they think of her record, I don't think it would be fair for me to objectively judge on someone I don't support.

[cooolandrew]

5. Those supporting HRC need to read the full sotry of John Walker Lyndh on the free encyclopedia.

[walldude]

6. Hey, don't be throwing these facts around winny nilly...

you might confuse someone. You are supposed to just post insults and rhetoric.. get with the program will ya!

[grassfed]

8. I know - these posts sink pretty fast - not hot enough

But this is what the election is about: innocent people suffering in horrific ways from the actions of oblivious, sheltered senators in a foreign country thousands of miles away.

[walldude]

10. Yeah people bitch about all the name calling and bullshit

then they K&R the threads that are the most inflammatory... Both sides do it and blame the other side.. it's actually quite amusing if you sit back and watch..

[wileedog]

9. She didn't support Iraq!

She "Mis-Voted"

[The River]

18. Well, To Be Fair

she was probably experiencing sniper fire at the time and it
was just to stressful and confusing to get the facts straight.

[grassfed]

22. Hillary's supporters CAN NOT defend her record. Period.

I have posed this every possible way and the bottom line is, Hillary's supporters can not or will not explain, defend or justify her voting record. These are Democrats who consider themselves sensitive, open-minded and compassionate yet very attempt at shedding light on her voting record has been met with obfuscation and accusations against Obama or Obama supporters. We therefore must accept that Hillary's supporters endorse Illegal War, Torture, Cluster Bombs, Land Mines and are not partners in peace.

[rodeodance]

25. Have you not figured out that we do not like being 'called out" only to shit on!!--have

you not a clue??

you may get some takers but that is all


Stop with the IMMATURE calling out of HRC folks.

[grassfed]

26. not calling anyone out

I'm just wondering how enlightened humane liberals can support Hillary's record. What are her strengths that override her "pro-war/torture/cluster bombs in civilian areas" record?

This is not a trap, I'm not sitting here waiting to expose your hypocrisy. If you're posting here you're most likely an aware person and I'm interested in your rationale.