Can someone please explain

[dsc]

why if one has specific criticisms of Kerry which he or she backs up he is anti Kerry on a website which contiunally criticizes the United States but doesn't like being called anti American? If I am anti Kerry when I criticise Kerry why aren't we all anti American when we criticise America? I fail to see the difference.

[MikeG]

1. The choice has been made. We must hang together or hang separately.

[dsc]

2. and I will

but if Kerry loses we are all sunk. He is running a bad campaign. That isn't just my opinion. It is all kinds of people's opinion.

[MikeG]

4. In 92 Clinton was in third place at this time of the year.

After the convention in July, he was twenty points ahead.

[dsc]

6. and one hopes that happens here

but I don't see Nader dropping out and endorsing Kerry (which is what happened with Clinton) nor do I see Bush letting Buchanan give a third rightesque speech at the convention.

[HFishbine]

14. Wrong

The choice hasn't been made and won't be until November. In the mean time, some of us wish to affect the process to assure the best outcome when the choice is made. Demanding lock-step devotion is a sure forumula for dissapointment in November.

[NMDemDist2]

3. ahhhh dsc, you can't expect logic when emotions are running

this high. People are just overwhelmed and emotionally exhausted at this point IMO. No one thinks clearly under those circumstances.

Relax, don't take the stuff personally. I read a post that stated we are taking out our frustrations with the Bushits on anything and everything around us.

On a happier note, I put my Kerry bumper sticker on my car Sunday. Today on the freeway (45 mile commute) I had 4 different cars come up next to me and give me a :thumbsup: in Arizona! no less

do something nice for yourself and let it slide :)

[dsc]

5. Point taken

But I love Kerry with an adult love not some 4 year old love. You tell people you love what they need to hear not what they want to.

[NMDemDist2]

7. i understand, but it is so early and there is some ugly chit

coming down. Let Kerry keep out of the muck, Bush is digging himself a big hole, lets just let the freaker roll a while :)

when the convention gets closer things will start to heat up, we need to let the "undecided" get the full flavor of these scandals. We don't want to exhaust the independents with a lot of rhetoric just yet.

The debates will kick ass, you'll see

[Rowdyboy]

8. Okay, dsc, here's my analogy...Dad and mom can only have one baby...

Dad wants a strong, steady son (like Wes Clark); Mom wants a smart, emotional, hard driving son (Howard Dean). Granny prefers an attractive baby (Edwards) and Gramps wants a dependable grandchild (Gephart). Crazy Aunt Emma (who's locked in the attic) wants someone she can relate to (Kucinich).

So who do they get? Well, it certainly wasn't exactly what they wanted. No one is really satisfied except for great aunt Morticia (who swears the baby looks just like her daddy), but they all have to love him anyway.

Yes, behind his back they do talk bad about him a little, but they always keep in mind that he's the only son they have and the only chance they're gonna get.

But what do I know? I voted for Mondale and Dukakis (both of whom were not the babies I would have picked).

[dsc]

11. I love Kerry enough to want him to win

and I fear he isn't. But your post is a good analogy.

[seaglass]

12. No, Mom never stops criticizing him. She can't find anything

right about him because she is so obsessed with her smart, emotional, hard-driving baby-dream and is so disappointed that she didn't get what she wanted that she can't look past him to appreciate what she has.

Mom definitely has a problem.

[Rowdyboy]

9. kick

:kick:

[Rowdyboy]

10. Damn it!!! I thought post #9 was near-brilliant and you ass-wipes

ignored it. Ungreatful, &*$%#^ *&^%$'s

See what you get next time!

[HFishbine]

15. I thought post #9 was brilliant too

Very understated.

[Rowdyboy]

33. What can I say...

I had (shall we be gentle?) imbibed a bit and was beginning to get confused.

Hey, at least someone looked! :toast:

"understated" to say the least!

[sangh0]

13. I can explain it

It's because your specific criticisms of Kerry (ie that he's running a poor campaign) can't be backed up. The most recent USA Today poll shows Kerry gaining in the last month in all categories, something that would not have happened if you were right, and Kerry had been running a poor campaign.

It has nothing to do with anti-americanism. It has to do with your being wrong on the facts.

[dsc]

16. That is baldly false

Bush has fallen but Kerry has at best remained flat. He has not gained. Show me your numbers. Before Bush's ads Kerry was in the mid 40's. That is exactly and precisely where he is today. You are telling stories you like.

[sangh0]

17. Wrong, but keep on repeating it

According to at least three polls, Zogby Gallup and USA Today, Kerry's numbers have risen.

[sangh0]

18. And here's a cite

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/nation/polls/usatodaypolls.htm

Question #2, under "registered voters", Kerry has picked up 4 points in the last month. Under "likely voters", Kerry has picked up 1 point

Q#3 - Kerry has made the same progress as under Q#2

Q#4, 5, & 6 - Doesn't concern Kerry. They show Bush*'s #'s falling, which we both agree on

Q#7 shows Kerry's #'s rising in all categories mentioned, including Iraq and terrorism

The rest of the questions don't concern Kerry

[dsc]

20. Several things

First, The highest rise, by your own handpicked poll, is 4% well within the MOE. In the same poll, Bush's numbers have gone down by 6. I am unsure what group was asked question 4 so am unsure what the comparision should be.

Second, here is a link from polling report. You can see that over the course of the month it is virtually imposssible to find a poll in which Kerry is doing statisticly significantly better than he was at the beginning of April.

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04gen.htm

The same report shows his approval rating has taken a huge plunge.

http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm

It is hard to sustain the idea that Kerry has gained at all but even if there is a slight gain for him it is not even close to the fall in Bush.

[sangh0]

22. You're stretching

Though the gains Kerry has made in the last month are nothing spectacular, the fact remains that they have gone up (as I claimed and you denied) and that happened while Bush* spent tens of millions of dollars, and Kerry had little in the bank and had to go out and raise money.

It is hard to sustain the idea that Kerry has gained at all but even if there is a slight gain for him it is not even close to the fall in Bush

We aren't discussing the size of Kerry's gains compared to Bush*'s losses. I claimed that Kerry's numbers went up. You called me a liar.

I was right, and your defense now seems to be "Well, I'm still right because Kerry's #'s didn't go up much", which is not the same argument.

[dsc]

23. In your hand picked poll

look at polling report in none of those have Kerry's numbers risen.

[sangh0]

25. You shouldn't give a citation

that backs me up. Go to YOUR cite at http://www.pollingreport.com/wh2004.htm

The very first poll is the one I (and you) cited. It shows Kerry picking up points over the last two months.

[dsc]

26. baldly false

He picked up points on individual issues that isn't picking up points on polls. That is just flat out false.

On edit here are the acutally numbers.

George
W. Bush John
Kerry Neither
(vol.) Other
(vol.) No
Opinion
% % % % %
5/7-9/04
48 47 2 1 2
5/2-4/04
48 49 1 - 2
4/16-18/04
51 46 2 - 1
4/5-8/04
48 45 4 1 2
3/26-28/04
51 47 1 - 1
3/5-7/04
44 52 2 1

The second number is Kerry. Only if you literally cherry pick your numbers can you find any improvement at all. If you use the most reasonable numbers to use (those that come after he locked up the nod at the end of March) he is dead even. Even with your cherry picked numbers he is only up by 2 within the margin of the error. In comparison Bush has dropped by 6 over the same time.

[sangh0]

27. He did both

as I pointed out in another post. He gained on individual issues, and he gained with registered and likely voters. He did this while Bush* spent tens of millions of dollars, and Kerry spent hardly anything.

You are being intellectually dishonest. You have been repating your claim that Kerry's campaign is doing a poor job, but you have yet to back that up with ANY evidence. You haven't shown his numbers going down. You haven't shown his fundraising going down.

You've got nothing. The best you can do is point out that Kerry isn't on fire right now, and the truth is, you haven't even done that.

[sangh0]

28. Here's a link to Zogby saying "Kerry will win"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x523207

Winning isn't too bad for a poorly run campaign, eh?

[dsc]

30. This is from Zoby's article

Have you recovered from the shock? Is this guy nuts? Kerry’s performance of late has hardly been inspiring and polls show that most Americans have no sense of where he really stands on the key issues that matter most to them. Regardless, I still think that he will win. And if he doesn’t, it will be because he blew it. There are four major reasons for my assertion:

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=825

Does that sound at all familiar? And remember this is from someone who thinks Kerry will win. Sometimes it is a good idea to read the article and not just the headline.

[sangh0]

31. So what?

You can find as many nits to pick on as you please, but winning an election has never been considered a sign of a poorly run campaign, an assertion of yours you have yet to support with any evidence.

[ibegurpard]

19. Can you please explain to me

How citing poll numbers at this stage in the game is proof of ANYTHING?
I hate Kerry but I certainly want him to win and when he or his campaign is doing something that not just I but everyone I talk to thinks is stupid then that implies more than just sour grapes to me. Yeah, I know it's a little more complicated than the black-and-white world you live in.

[dsc]

21. Would you like to look at Oijua boards instead?

There are relatively few ways to judge what his campaign is doing. One is to look at fundraising, which is going well. Another is to look at how he is doing getting people to vote for him. I guess I could use chicken entrails to try to divine that but I prefer to use real people or polls. And both of those show a major problem. Another way is to look at organization which is evidently finally showing up.

[sangh0]

24. You are both very confused

ibegurpard - Except for the actual election, polls prove nothing. However, you are very confused if you think I have a burden of proof here. dsc, who has claimed that Kerry's campaign is being run terribly is the one who has a burden of proof. I posted this poll merely to demonstrate the lack of evidence in dsc's corner. I noticed you had nothing to say about dsc's lack of proof, but that's OK because if you hate Kerry enough, you don't need proof )or even any evidence) to criticize.

dsc - Kerry's fundraising and his numbers are doing well. As far as I can tell, your mischaracterizations of Kerry's campaign must have been motivated by chicken entrails.

Do your best to misportray Kerry supporters as hypocrits and unquestioned loyalists and apologists, and maybe no one will notice that your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.

[dsc]

29. I am sick and tired of you not reading posts before you respond

This is what I wrote

One is to look at fundraising, which is going well


What part of that was in any way shape or form confusing. You either can not read, choose not to read, or choose to read one thing and claim people say another. I am beyond sick of it.

[sangh0]

32. You are still very confused

This is what I wrote

One is to look at fundraising, which is going well

I agreed with you. Aside from your general confusion, I have no idea why you would think I disagree with you. IMO, and yours, Kerry's fundraising has been "going well"