Florida KNEW they could lose ALL their delegates if they voted yes to move the primary.

[madfloridian]

They knew it, the rules say that there is an AUTOMATIC penalty of 50%, but the rules committee has latitude to strip ALL of them. Florida knew that.

Here are the rules from the DNC Charter:

Under the DNC delegate selection rules, if a state party’s plan violates the rule with respect to timing, the number of its pledged delegates—those delegates awarded proportionally to candidates based on the primary or caucus results—is automatically reduced 50%(without any action by the RBC or DNC); no member of the DNC can attend the Convention as a delegate; no Member of Congress can attend the Convention as a delegate; and if applicable, the state’s Democratic governor can not attend the Convention as a delegate. In addition, any presidential candidate who campaigns in the state for the event in violation of the rules cannot receive any pledged delegates from that state. In addition to these automatic sanctions, the DNC the RBC has authority under the rules to impose additional sanctions, including further reductions in the state’s delegation.
At its meeting on August 25, 2007, the DNC RBC found Florida’s plan in noncompliance with the DNC rules, and voted to increase the sanctions against Florida by reducing the state’s delegation by 100% unless the state party, within the 30-day period allowed by the
Committee’s regulations, submitted a plan for an alternative, state party-run process on or after February 5 that would be used to allocate delegate positions.

Here is the link, courtesy of Maine Dem. It is in pdf format.

Testimony given before the Rules committee in September 18,2007

Did you get that? Florida had 30 days in which to keep all the delegates from being stripped. They refused to submit a plan that followed the rules.

Jane Hamsher had a great article last year about how the Florida Democrats KNEW what would happen. There was no doubt in their minds.

DNC to Florida Democrats: Not So Fast

Basically, here's what happened: last summer, the DNC approved a plan by which Iowa and New Hampshire remained in January, with Nevada and South Carolina also wedged into the early schedule to ensure that states in the South and West, with larger Black and Latino representation, had significance in the early primary process. (States had the ability to apply to the DNC to lobby for their selection as an early state; Florida did not seek such a move at the time.)

All the other states were told -- and my understanding is that even Florida voted for this -- that no one else got to hold a delegate-selecting primary before February 5. If they did, it would be mandatory and automatic that half their delegates would be eliminated from the Convention, with additional penalties possible including the loss of the entire delegation and -- believe me when I tell you this is pretty serious -- having the state bumped to the back of the Denver hotel selection pool.

Except Florida's legislature wasn't hearing that, and a bipartisan vote led to their attempts to claim a January 29 primary. So now Florida's Democratic leaders have a choice: convince the legislature to move the date altogether; convert the primary from a meaningful delegate allocation process into a "straw poll" or "beauty contest"; or stay put and accept the consequences. (Oh, or sue the DNC. Great.)

There is more at this link, including a letter to the DNC from Florida that they might investigate the DNC for voter suppression.

Florida congressional delegate threatens Dean in letter

Yet it was reported just today the DNC still appears poised to assault this basic right. According to ABC News and other news publications, the DNC may sanction Florida if the state's Democratic Party doesn't make the new primary a nonbinding straw poll - or in effect, a "meaningless . . . beauty contest."

If true - and, if the DNC strips Florida of all or some of its delegates to the national convention - we would ask the appropriate legal officials to determine whether this could violate any state or federal laws governing and protecting individual voting rights.

No more Steve Gellers telling Dean that there will be "mutual destruction." No more Corrine Browns saying that Dean should resign.

It is time for the leaders in Florida who KNEW EXACTLY what would happen, that they had 30 days to comply or ALL the delegates would be stripped....it is time to hush and let the party heal.

[joshcryer]

1. So what? They'll be seated. Even Obama is warming to the idea.

After all, neither can win without the superdelegates.

[Johnny__Motown]

9. Seated, but not in the proportions that the primary would have yielded

This just gives them a trip to Denver.




My best guess is still 1/2 a vote per delegate from FL & MI. (including SD)

[joshcryer]

13. Maybe, maybe not.

Either way they're going to be recognized and this is all within the rules.

[LVjinx]

87. The credentials committee will certify FL and MI in June. They really can't afford NOT to.

And it's the only way to prevent a disaster on the convention floor.

[MaineDem]

101. I don't think Credentials has authority until the first of July

Hopefully, this can be worked out before then.

[Divine Discontent]

2. they thought they'd get their way, obviously...

they are foolish. they caused such a mess. Thurman and others should resign.

Thanks for all your updates.


GoBaMa!

[madfloridian]

3. I am....

pissed. :mad:

[Divine Discontent]

7. if everyone watched all the videos and read all the stories, like you have,

and I have mostly, they should be ticked off, also! I still can't believe the jerk told Dean he wouldn't be welcome in FL - who the heck do these people think they really are!

[Lone_Star_Dem]

12. At least you're pissed at the right people

If not for you and your wonderful journal I admit I'd have little knowledge of what's actually taken place in Florida. So it's not that I'm bashing others for not knowing the truth. I'm just tired of people not wanting to hear it when it's shown to them in writing/video with verifiable sources. :banghead:

[madfloridian]

But what I say has no impact in FL. They have talking points down pat.

It is heartbreaking.

[ThatBozGuy]

15. One only has to watch the video of Steve Gellar, The same in the attack letter to the DNC, laughing

As he made the motion to destroy Floridas votes in the primary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpHuQi17EaE

The contempt and sarcasm against the DNC is dripping off the Motion and it is this arrogance that has caused the final outcome we see today.

Not Ms Clinton, Not Mr Obama, not the DNC, these legislatures who let their constituents down, for their own pompous ego.

[madfloridian]

40. Amen.

That video said it all.

[BOHICA06]

17. She didn't cause the mess ....

the republican house, senate, and governor fucked with the DNC and its silly rules about who comes first and they won!!! They are laughing and will be laughing until the convention, when they will laugh some more.

Talk about shooting your own toes off .... the DNC has it down to a science!

[ThatBozGuy]

30. It wasnt the republicans that did this and it was Ms Clintons own poeple

It has been floated that it was the Florida republicans, it wasnt.

Watch the video of the Florida Democrat leadership making the motion that messed this all up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpHuQi17EaE

As to the "silly DNC rules", they were created, drafted and ratified by 15 members of Ms Clinton's current campaign.

Those 15 were on the committee of 40 that set the rules at the DNC and not only were those 15 that are currently attached to Ms Clintons campaign but ALL 40 on the committee were hand chosen and nominated by Ms Clinton's campaign lead Terry McCauliffe.

It was also Mr Wolfson Ms Clintons communications director on January 26th 2008 that stepped this into the realm of attacking and dismissing the DNC when he said they would move on to Florida ignoring the sanctions.

So no it wasn't the republicans but the Florida dems and Ms Clintons campaign inner circle and 40 for her hand picked compatriots that are directly at fault for this.

[David Dunham]

4. It's the Democratic National Convention, not shifty Dean, who'll decide whether to seat FL and MI

[madfloridian]

6. There comes your gratuitous Dean insult for the thread.

I was expecting that.

[Cha]

8. You don't shit about Dean..

quit faking like you know anything.

[joshcryer]

11. While their comments were offensive and unnecessary, the content is factual.

Dean has no say. And the DNC will seat them. Probably with Obama's blessing. Because if he goes against it *with* the majority of the pledged delegates, then he will be snubbing those two states, and those at the DNC won't stand for it.

[ThatBozGuy]

19. They will seat them by unanimity, because there will only be one candidate before them at the ....

Convention and the seating will be a formality.

There is no way at the close of the peoples vote on June 6th that this does not end in the best interest of the Party and the fall Democratic campaign, there is no way the Party allows this to sit unanswered for 3 months, a political lifetime, just to assuage someones ego, no matter who they are.

[joshcryer]

36. It will be interesting if the DNC can come up with something before the convention.

They may or may not. Hillary is stubborn, but she'll step down if the convention tells her to.

[ThatBozGuy]

53. Mark my words there are a tremendous amount of SDs that are just waiting for the people to

Have their final vote on June 6th, they will then add there vote to whomever is the closest to the needed 2024 and the Democratic campaign will begin for the fall.

[joshcryer]

65. This is true. So hopefully it won't be too narrow of a split at that point.

:hi:

[KingOfLostSouls]

5. that Corrine Brown letter to Dean

really pissed me off.


she wouldn't even be COMPETITIVE as a state if it wasn't for howard dean.


and he's not the one who chose to violate terry mcauliffe's rules, they are.


48 other states played by the rules.

[BOHICA06]

29. Sure she would ....

... her district is so gerrymandered that any democrat that could fog a mirror would win!

Screw FL now and you screw FL for the GE.... yep, that's smart!

[madfloridian]

84. So you excuse FL, you think they can break rules with impunity?

That's just amazing to me.

[BOHICA06]

113. Sometimes you have to face reality ...

..and the reality is: Screw Florida .... Screw the General Election.

If that's what you want, then say so!

[madfloridian]

126. What do you want?

Do you want FL to get their way even though they broke the rules, fully knowing the consequences?

[BOHICA06]

128. YES. If it mean success in November, Yes!!!

[PerfectSage]

10. So why did it happen?

Trying to steal Iowa/New Hampshire's thunder?
Rove's plot to throw a monkey wrench of toxic divisiveness into the Democratic primarys?
Clinton trying to get an insurmountable early delegate lead?

Cui Bono? madfloridian, what's your take?

[madfloridian]

14. They basically wanted the week before Super Tuesday for attention.

It was to give them power to influence Feb. 5 voters by the vote here, which at that time very much Clintons.

Not sure of the exact motives, but mainly power.

[dchill]

26. And yet the original date - March 11, I believe -

would have basically made them "the deciders". How ironic.

[housewolf]

27. No, the date change was orchestrated by the FL Repubs

And the choice the FL Dems had was to either move the primary or not pass a voter reform bill requiring a paper audit
trail.

Maybe the Repubs wanted to influence their own primary by moving the date up.

The blame belongs to the FL State Republicans.

[madfloridian]

31. Stop that. The Dems voted for it 115 to 1. That is being complicit.

I am so sick of all the excuses about it.

Florida leaders goofed. They should apologize, let the party heal, sit down and hush.

[ThatBozGuy]

35. The republicans didnt do it, Not only did the Florida Dems do it they did with contempt for the DNC

but don't take my word for it.

Watch for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpHuQi17EaE

[housewolf]

38. Would you have preferred that they caused a verifiable paper ballot to fail?

That was the choice the FL Repubs orchestrated.

[madfloridian]

As Rhett Butler said:

Frankly my dear I don't give a damn.

[joshcryer]

46. That is apparent.

But you better hope Obama is happy to seat them come the convention.

Otherwise he's gone.

[ThatBozGuy]

43. Watch the video, it was not, tahts a red herring added later, the chance the Dems had they threw

away, and the later vote was just a technicality that they covered there earlier mistakes with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpHuQi17EaE

[housewolf]

16. Look, the FL Repubs had the Dems over a barrel -

The FL State Repubs hijacked a voter-reform bill requiring a paper ballot trail by adding an amendment moving to move the primary date up.

So the Dems had a choice - kill the verifiable ballot trail or move their primary date up.

What would you have done?

[joshcryer]

18. "But it would've passed anyway."

That's the normal excuse given, which denies the existance of political capital, and generally shows an ignorant view of the world.

[BOHICA06]

22. The Democrats have no political capital in FL ....

....they couldn't mobilize any pressure in Tallahassee. They are impotent, powerless, and irrelevant in state government. And they didn't get any national help, just yapping dogs saying, "Oh, NO you don't!!!"

[madfloridian]

23. All they had to do was vote no. They all voted yes, but one.

It was pathetic.

[BOHICA06]

They voted for a paper trail and to empower FL voters

...who haven't had a real say in selecting candidates in decades. Looks like they did their job, looking out for their constituents. They played as Fl Democrats rather than National Democrats.

Again, screw FL now and it won't be blue in November.

[joshcryer]

41. Then please by all means vote for Democrats with more spine.

[BOHICA06]

45. Sorry, Florida living decalcifies most spines ....

...particularly when you have Jeb and others running the game.

[joshcryer]

47. I wasn't talking to you.

:hi:

[joshcryer]

39. You have no idea how state level politics work.

Yet, voting for it was a way to gain political capital.

[madfloridian]

21. They could NOT kill the paper trail bill....not enough votes. They should have voted no.

and their delegates would have counted.

That excuse has been used so much. All their votes together would not have killed it, the people are not stupid, and they were using it to get their early primary.

[housewolf]

33. I think the issue is that a verifiable paper ballot trail is a very good thing that no Dem wants to

kill. What sort of uproar would there have been if the Dems had killed a ballot trail bill?

Dems in many states would KILL just to get a verifiable paper ballot trail.

So kill that or go along with the primary vote change and deal with the consequences.

Blame the Repubs, they screwed it for the Dems.

[madfloridian]

37. That is so sad. Propaganda works.

The Florida Dems jump when the GOP says frog...they say how high, sir.

[housewolf]

44. Yeah, life sucks when you're the minority party

Most of the time, you just don't get to do what you want to do, so you do the best you can for the people of your state.

[madfloridian]

49. Okay, whatever you say.

If the Florida party says it it must be true. Right?

[joshcryer]

50. Pretty much. And as Obama was told when he tried to confirm the conservative judge. "Politicians...

...have long memories."

Yeah, good luck getting anything progressive passed by making such a move.

[joshcryer]

42. Yeah, but little johnny's school budget would have been harder to pass.

Or little sally's hospital subsidies.

[mikelewis]

20. They should give all Florida and Michigan delegates to Mike Gravel as a compromise...

Or hell, give them to me... let me be Florida and Michigan's choice for President... Or maybe we can cop out like Time Magazine did that year and say "You" (well, technically US) are the nominee... Now that was some ass kissing... Time's Person of the Year? Osama? Bush? No, the ignorant fucks who stand slack-jawed watching them on TV. Time... what a bunch of ass kissers... they're still first to go to the guillotine when the revolution comes.

[Swamp Rat]

24. Watch out, Robespierre!

:D I say we divide the delegates even-steven between you and I. ;)

[mikelewis]

34. O come on... I never get to be the "not" candidate...

Oh wait..

[KingOfLostSouls]

25. I'm not sure if this is possible

BUT....wouldn't it be fair to just seat half the delegates, and ban the supers?


I think thats a fitting compromise for corrine brown :)

[madfloridian]

28. Read the comments. The state party propaganda has worked very well.

Truth does not matter. They keep spouting the paper trail, or they had us over a barrel crap.

Propaganda works.

[housewolf]

69. What the NY Times, Gov. Crist, FL Dems & others said about the bill

You're in FL, so perhaps you know what's what.

But here's what the NY Times said about it last year:
"The Florida House voted unanimously to move it up on Thursday, a week after the Senate approved the measure. In the same legislation, it approved Gov. Charlie Crist’s plan to replace the touch-screen voting machines used in many of Florida’s counties with paper ballots counted by scanning machines."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/04/us/politics/04florida.html

And from the a press release from the FL Dem Party from June, 2007
"The state law that moved Florida's primary date was passed by a Republican-controlled state legislature with the support of a Republican governor. Though the Florida Democratic Party tried several attempts to stop it, we could not expect our Democratic legislators to vote against the final bill, which included vital paper trail legislation for Florida's elections."
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/chrnothp08/fdp061107pr.html

From Salon.com
"But everything changed when Florida moved its primary as part of an overall electoral reform bill, which won unanimous Democratic support in the legislature because it also eliminated touch-screen voting. "
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/07/02/primaries/

From Gov. Crist's site:
"Governor Charlie Crist today signed House Bill 537 that will establish a paper trail for all votes cast in Florida elections. The election-reform legislation will provide optical scan machines for counties that do not already have them for Election Day voting and early voting sites. The legislation also changes the date of Florida’s presidential primary to the last Tuesday in January."
http://www.flgov.com/release/9011


Are these accounts wrong? If so, what was the real story?

[madfloridian]

71. The real story is that they were in before the changes. They were complicit.

Jeremy Ring (D-FL) said "relevance is more important than "partying" in
Denver.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1836

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

Mark Bubriski, the party spokesperson admitted they were on board as early as March 2006.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1564

The media is not bothering to look back. They are taking the word of Bill Nelson and Thurman.

Fl was even meeting with MI leaders, but I don't know when that started.

[joshcryer]

75. Doesn't matter, they voted for it long before they were stripped.

And once they were stripped, after the change took place, they were told to change their primary date anyway, run a state run election (which would hurt the local parties money), and on top of that, disinvolve Democratic voters from the constitutional ammendment that the Reps had put on the Jan 29th ballot.

They had reasonable positions for doing what they did.

The DNC seems to have fucked up on this one. I can't believe they stripped them *after* the fact.

[housewolf]

77. Okay. I was trying to blame the Repubs and give the benefit of the doubt

to the FL Dems. You wanna blame the FL Dems. Okay, carry on. I'm outta here... See ya later.

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

83. The FL dems are still going on TV and asking Dean to step down. Excuse them?

No way in hell. They have been arrogant from the start.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1931

That is only one example.

[housewolf]

98. I am so sorry that all this has gone on in FL & MI

It's really a sad state of affairs when states' votes don't count and in the long run, will leave a bitter taste in the mouths of many.

Still, I have empathy for the FL Dems. I think they were caught in a no-win situation - vote again a verifiable paper trail in order to vote against the primary date. This is politics, after all and they are a minority party and their really only power is to obstruct things. They didn't have enough votes to obstruct the legislation, as best I can tell. And I'm sure they took into account the horror spectacle of opponents running ads against them for voting against the ballot trail. Thinking they could work something out with the DNC, that was the course they chose. Unfortunately for them, events turned against them. But to the end, they are politicians, and what's left for them now is to try to stand up for themselves and try by any means possible to express some sort of power in the situation. Right now that is expressing as blaming the DNC and calling for Dean's resignation.

It's sad, really, that they have been brought to this. You say they brought it all on themselves, but... how would it be different today if they had voted against the legislation?

I understand how angry you are about the FL votes not being counted and I concur with you on that. I'm just more willing to lay the blame on the FL Repubs who now are sitting back laughing their asses off while angry FL Dems want to kill their own legislators.

I'm so sorry that it is the way it is today, and continue to hope that something will be worked out.

Peace?

[george_maniakes]

99. Is there any way another primary can be held? n/t

[madfloridian]

105. The DNC gave permission for new primaries...the states now say no.

Yet the FL voters still blame the national party.

[housewolf]

106. A re-vote in FL is pretty much dead

There's no money for it, not enough time for it, and issues about who could vote in it and how. FL's never done a caucus or mail-in vote so either would be chaotic and issues of potential voter fraud.

I think everyone, including Dean, want to find some resolution but so far nothing satisfactory to everyone has not come forward.

[madfloridian]

103. If the leaders had voted no....there would be delegates.

That is my point. It did not have to be this way.

Now the thing is to stop the anger of the people. To do that, the Florida Dem leaders must admit what they did.

IF they keep blaming the national party and blaming Dean for what they did....it will hurt us in the general election.

[housewolf]

108. Got it, I see your point now.

Good luck to all of us, it's an issue bigger than just FL & MI.

[madfloridian]

32. True believers do not see the truth.

Even when it is in writing before them. Propaganda works.

[joshcryer]

52. Is that why you keep repeating the same lies over and over again?

[ThatBozGuy]

56. Please tell me what is a lie about this,

This is Florida dem leadership throwing away Florida voters vote, with sarcasm and disdain for the DNC, the republican even asked the Democrat how he wanted the republicans to vote, The Dem chose the fate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpHuQi17EaE

[joshcryer]

58. Look at the wording...

Florida KNEW they could lose ALL their delegates <...>

Florida Democrats KNEW what would happen.

It is time for the leaders in Florida who KNEW EXACTLY what would happen <...>

Where is the lie in these statements? The OP cannot say that Floridians knew that their votes would not count, but that's what's implied by the distortion.

The OP of course has stated in the past that 1) Hillary is behind the lawsuits 2) that Hillary wants to break rules... it goes on and on for months and months now.

[ThatBozGuy]

60. Not the OP, Tell me what is a lie about this, the post I am making here What absolves the leadership

As you have said that it was all just propaganda

This is Florida dem leadership throwing away Florida voters vote, with sarcasm and disdain for the DNC, the republican even asked the Democrat how he wanted the republicans to vote, The Dem chose the fate and failure of Floridas voters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpHuQi17EaE

[madfloridian]

61. There you go again with facts and rationality....the two most hated things here.

But I like it. :hi:

[joshcryer]

68. You represent your state well.

:hi:

[joshcryer]

66. Well, it seems the OP completely wrong according to information below.

They had *no idea* *all* their votes would be stripped until it was *already passed into law* and they had *no hopewhatsoever* of changing the outcome.

Here's how it went down.

05/03/07 FL dems pass a law to change their primary date. At this point in time DNC rules stated that a state that broke these rules would have their delegates halved. Part of the legslation made paper ballots with a paper trail mandatory. This was something the FL dems had to vote for.

*THEY DID NOT KNOW THEY WOULD LOSE ALL THEIR DELEGATES AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

8/4/07 DNC, Donna Brazille, and others, changed the rule completely stripping FL of its delegates.

What a fucking liar.

[ThatBozGuy]

78. Wrong according to the information you wrote is correct. Here is your answer to

your failure.

This rule the one that stripped the delegates was last amended, Sanctioned and ratified on December 10, 2005

Transcript of the meeting is available here

http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v001/democratic1.download.akamai.com/8082/pdfs/20051210_commissiontranscript.pdf

Section 20 Subsection C Proviso 7

In the event a state shall become subject to subsections (1), (2) or (3) of section C. of this rule as a result of state law but the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee, after an investigation, including hearings if necessary, determines the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and determines that the state party and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee may determine that all or a portion of the state’s delegation shall not be reduced. The state party shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent the legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules.

SOURCE:http://a9.g.akamai.net/7/9/8082/v001/democratic1.download.akamai.com/8082/pdfs/2008delegateselectionrules.pdf


And by the way it was the same rule (same exact wording) in the 2004 ruleset but it was Section 17, Subsection C Proviso 5

Everyone knew they "could lose ALL of the delegates" They just didn't think the DNC would enforce the rules that hard.

On one other note the meeting where you said they "changed the rules" they didn;t change the rules, they passed the sentence and sanction judgement. The ruling of what they could lose if they didn't change in the next 30 days.

Saying the rules changed when they made the judgement is like saying the law was changed when a judge gives someone probation instead of jail time. The law doesn't change, the judge has the options under the law just like here.

To put it into terms you might understand better the rules(laws) didn't change the judge(DNC Committee)set the sentence to its strictest (loss of all delegates) rather than probation (half delegates loss) because the drunk and or pot head (Florida Dems) punched the cop (The DNC Committee) while he broke the law (rules)

[flyarm]

48. DNC that changed the rules of what the punishment would be for moving up the Mi and FL primaries

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/2/15/16429/5965

This horse has long been beaten to death, but this thoughtful diary about the MI/FL fiasco ignores the fact that, as commenter dhonig points out, it was the DNC that changed the rules of what the punishment would be for moving up the Mi and FL primaries. Rule 20(c)(1) of the DNC Rules on Selection of Delegates at the time the date changes were enacted by Michigan and Florida stated:


Violation of timing: In the event the Delegate Selection Plan of a state party provides or permits a meeting, caucus, convention or primary which constitutes the first determining stage in the presidential nominating process to be held prior to or after the dates for the state as provided in Rule 11 of these rules, or in the event a state holds such a meeting, caucus, convention or primary prior to or after such dates, the number of pledged delegates elected in each category allocated to the state pursuant to the Call for the National Convention shall be reduced by fifty (50%) percent, and the number of alternates shall also be reduced by fifty (50%) percent. In addition, none of the members of the Democratic National Committee and no other unpledged delegate allocated pursuant to Rule 8.A. from that state shall be permitted to vote as members of the state’s delegation. In determining the actual number of delegates or alternates by which the state’s delegation is to be reduced, any fraction below .5 shall be rounded down to the nearest whole number, and any fraction of .5 or greater shall be rounded up to the next nearest whole number.
(Emphasis supplied.) The DNC, led by Howard Dean and Donna Brazile, changed the penalty rule for moving up a primary and ignored the violations of the rules by Iowa, NH and South Carolina.

These are the facts. Too many conveniently ignore the villains in this piece, the DNC, Howard Dean and Donna Brazile. I will not let them off the hook for this disaster.

more at link

[madfloridian]

54. I posted the rules from the charter. Exact words. No more spin.

No more twisting words.

Florida needs to be cut off and allowed to drift toward Cuba....they are hopeless.

And Talk Left is Armando's site...he hated Dean in 03 and he is worse now. Talk left has its own agenda.

[joshcryer]

55. You did not respond to these comments.

Voice of sanity. :rofl:

[flyarm]

62. How did we get here?

please read this entire diary...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/2/15/162533/857/20/457632

But what actually happened? Lots of people have talked about "punishing" Florida, as if it were a 3 year old to be put in timeout. But it is not. It is a tremendously important State filled with millions of dedicated Democrats. How did we get here?
snip;
Well, it started with both parties in the legislature looking to move the primary date up some, to have some relevance. Both parties were behind it. No question about it. But then something funny happened. The Republican-controlled legislature not only picked an early date, it picked a REALLY early date, January 29, 2008. From there, let the Florida Democratic Party tell you what happened:


snip;
Party leaders, Chairwoman Thurman and members of Congress then lobbied Democratic members of the Legislature through a variety of means to prevent the primary from moving earlier than February 5th. Party leadership and staff spent countless hours discussing our opposition to and the ramifications of a pre-February 5th primary with legislators, former and current Congressional members, DNC members, DNC staff, donors, activists, county leaders, media, legislative staff, Congressional staff, municipal elected officials, constituency leaders, labor leaders and counterparts in other state parties. In response to the Party’s efforts, Senate Democratic Leaders Geller and Wilson and House Democratic Leaders Gelber and Cusack introduced amendments to CS/HB 537 to hold the Presidential Preference Primary on the first Tuesday in February, instead of January 29th. These were both defeated by the overwhelming Republican majority in each house.

The primary bill, which at this point had been rolled into a larger legislation train, went to a vote in both houses. It passed almost unanimously. The final bill contained a whole host of elections legislation, much of which Democrats did not support. However, in legislative bodies, the majority party can shove bad omnibus legislation down the minority’s throats by attaching a couple of things that made the whole bill very difficult, if not impossible, to vote against. This is what the Republicans did in Florida, including a vital provision to require a paper trail for Florida elections. There was no way that any Florida Democratic Party official or Democratic legislative leader could ask our Democratic members, especially those in the Florida Legislative Black Caucus, to vote against a paper trail for our elections. It would have been embarrassing, futile, and, moreover, against Democratic principles.

"Hey man, I don't want to read all that. Tell me what happened." Okay, I will. We got hosed. After the Republicans f'ed us on the date and rejected our amendments to move it back to Super Tuesday, they shoved the whole thing into an Omnibus Bill that included paper trails for ballots. We had already lost on the date. But there was no way the Florida Democrats were going to vote against paper ballots. It was, in effect, the ultimate poison pill.

snip;

Well, you see, the DNC Delegate Selection Rules 2008 were actually written in 2006. The Florida Legislature amended the statute in Spring, 2007. At that time (and actually, still, but read on) the rule said:

Violation of timing: In the event the Delegate Selection Plan of a state party provides or permits a meeting, caucus, convention or primary which constitutes the first determining stage in the presidential nominating process to be held prior to or after the dates for the state as provided in Rule 11 of these rules, or in the event a state holds such a meeting, caucus, convention or primary prior to or after such dates, the number of pledged delegates elected in each category allocated to the state pursuant to the Call for the National Convention shall be reduced by fifty (50%) percent, and the number of alternates shall also be reduced by fifty (50%) percent. In addition, none of the members of the Democratic National Committee and no other unpledged delegate allocated pursuant to Rule 8.A. from that state shall be permitted to vote as members of the state’s delegation. In determining the actual number of delegates or alternates by which the state’s delegation is to be reduced, any fraction below .5 shall be rounded down to the nearest whole number, and any fraction of .5 or greater shall be rounded up to the next nearest whole number.

"Hey, doesn't that solve the problem? Sure, they get less, but they're not 'disenfranchised,' right?" Well, yeah, but then came Donna Brazile. Now mind you, the DNC Rules Committee did not even need to meet, the sanctions were automatic:

read entire link

[joshcryer]

64. The lie that the OP is spreading is that they *knew* they would lose everything.

But back in May of 2007 they had *no idea whatsoever* that the DNC was going to *strip their delegates completely.*

I can't believe Dean would allow that. That's crazy! It would make sense if it was *preempted*, that is, *before* a vote, but *Jeb Bush had already signed it into law!*

[madfloridian]

67. You are just ignoring the pdf version of the rules I posted. So easy to ignore.

Much easier to cut and paste the same stuff from MyDD.

[BOHICA06]

57. Cut off the 4th most populous state .....

.... you do like a handicapped election, bet you're great with the ponies!!

[madfloridian]

59. Propaganda works. Florida did a good job.

They really did.

Facts just do not matter.

[joshcryer]

63. LOL, DNC changed the rule after it'd been *passed into law.* Fl Dems couldn't do shit about it.

What lies! Amazing!

They didn't know that they were going to be screwed and lose *all* their delegates at that time. And they had no hope to change the law.

[stillcool]

89. I am so tired of the repetitious BS

December 1, 2007, 11:42 am
Democrats Strip Michigan of Delegates

By The New York Times

In a widely expected move, the Democratic National Committee voted this morning to strip Michigan of all its 156 delegates to the national nominating convention next year. The state is breaking the party’s rules by holding its primary on Jan. 15. Only Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina and Nevada are allowed to hold contests prior to Feb. 5.

The party imposed a similar penalty on Florida in August for scheduling a Jan. 29 primary.

The Democratic candidates have already pledged not to campaign in the state, and Senators Barack Obama and Joseph R. Biden Jr., as well as John Edwards and Gov. Bill Richardson, asked to have their names removed from the state ballot.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/01/democrats-strip-michigan-delegates/

Lawmakers in US state Michigan approve moving presidential primary to January despite rules
The Associated Press
Published: August 30, 2007

LANSING, Michigan: Michigan lawmakers have approved moving the state's U.S. presidential nomination contests to January, three weeks earlier than party rules allow, as states continue to challenge the traditional primary election calendar to gain influence in the race.

Democratic Gov. Jennifer Granholm is expected to sign the bill passed Thursday that would move the contest to Jan. 15, but approval of the switch is far from certain. A disagreement among state Democratic leaders over whether to hold a traditional ballot vote or a more restricted caucus is complicating final action.

If the date moves up, Michigan Democrats risk losing all their national convention delegates, while Republicans risk losing half.
------------------------------------
Rules in both parties say states cannot hold their 2008 primary contests before Feb. 5, except for a few hand-picked states that hold elections in January.
--------------------------------
"We understand that we're violating the rules, but it wasn't by choice," Michigan Republican Chairman Saul Anuzis said, noting that state Democrats first proposed moving the date to Jan. 15. "We're going to ask for forgiveness and we think ... we will get forgiveness."
----------------------------------
Even states that do not have favored status are trying to jump toward the front of the line. Florida Democrats decided to move their state's primary to Jan. 29. The national party has said it will strip Florida of its presidential convention delegates unless it decides within the next few weeks to move the vote to a later date.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/08/31/america/NA-POL-US-Primary-Scramble.php?WT.mc_id=rssap_america

Democrats vow to skip defiant states
Six candidates agree not to campaign in those that break with the party's calendar. Florida and Michigan, this includes you.
By Mark Z. Barabak, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 2, 2007
Front-runner Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York followed Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois and former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina in pledging to abide by the calendar set by the Democratic National Committee last summer. The rules allow four states -- Iowa, Nevada, New Hampshire and South Carolina -- to vote in January.

The four "need to be first because in these states ideas count, not just money," Edwards said in a written statement. "This tried-and-true nominating system is the only way for voters to judge the field based on the quality of the candidate, not the depth of their war chest."

Hours later, after Obama took the pledge, Clinton's campaign chief issued a statement citing the four states' "unique and special role in the nominating process" and said that the New York senator, too, would "adhere to the DNC-approved calendar."

Three candidates running farther back in the pack -- New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson and Sens. Christopher J. Dodd of Connecticut and Joseph R. Biden Jr. of Delaware -- said Friday they would honor the pledge, shortly after the challenge was issued in a letter co-signed by Democratic leaders in the four early states.
--
Florida, the state that proved pivotal in the 2000 presidential election, is again a source of much upheaval. Ignoring the rule that put January off-limits, legislators moved the state's primary up to Jan. 29, pushing Florida past California and other big states voting Feb. 5.

Leaders of the national party responded last month by giving Florida 30 days to reconsider, or have its delegates barred from the August convention in Denver.

"The party had to send a strong message to Florida and the other states," said Donna Brazile, a veteran campaign strategist and member of the Democratic National Committee, the party's governing body. "We have a system that is totally out of control."

Despite that warning, Michigan lawmakers moved last week to jump the queue, voting to advance the state's primary to Jan. 15.

Florida Dems defy Dean on primary date
By Sam Youngman
Posted: 06/12/07 07:58 PM
Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee (DNC), is trapped in a high-stakes game of chicken with party leaders in Florida.

They warned him yesterday not to “disenfranchise” state voters and risk being blamed for a debacle on the scale of the 2000 recount.

The warning comes amid alarm over a decision Sunday by state Democratic leaders to embrace Jan. 29 as the primary date.
They are defying DNC headquarters and daring it to follow through on its threat to disqualify electors selected in the primary and punish candidates who campaign there.

But the DNC is not backing down. The committee bought time with a statement late yesterday saying, “The DNC will enforce the rules as passed by its 447 members in Aug. 2006. Until the Florida State Democratic Party formally submits its plan and we’ve had the opportunity to review that submission, we will not speculate further.”

Dean does not, in any case, have the power to waive party rules, a DNC spokeswoman said. The entire committee would have to vote again to do that.
------------------

Carol Fowler, chairwoman of the South Carolina Democratic Party, said she won’t move that state’s primary, scheduled for Feb. 2, unless the national committee allows her.

“I’m going to do what the DNC tells me to,” Fowler said. “I’m not willing to violate the rules. The penalties are too stiff.”
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/florida-dems-defy-dean-on-primary-date-2007-06-12.html

DNC Moves to Stop Primary Frontloading
Posted: August 27, 2007 6:05 PM ET
The Democratic National Committee moved over the weekend to penalize Florida for moving up its primary date to Jan. 29 -- a violation of DNC rules that prohibit states from holding nominating polls before Feb. 5.
The committee said the Sunshine State would be stripped of its delegation at the party's National Convention in 2008 if the state does not reschedule its primary in the next 30 days.

As the nation's fourth-most-populous state, Florida has 210 delegates and has played a major role in recent presidential elections. Florida's decision to advance its primary follows the increasing trend of states pushing up their contests in order to gain relevance in the election.

"Rules are rules. California abided by them, and Florida should, as well. To ignore them would open the door to chaos," said Garry Shays, a DNC member from California. California -- with its 441 delegates -- moved its primary to Feb. 5, along with more than a dozen other states.
-----------------------------------------

The DNC gave Florida the option of holding a Jan. 29 contest but with nonbinding results, and the delegates would be awarded at a later official date.

Florida Democratic Committee Chairwoman Karen Thurman said this option would be expensive -- as much as $8 million -- and potentially undoable. Another option would be to challenge the ruling in court.

"We do represent, standing here, a lot of Democrats in the state of Florida -- over 4 million," Thurman said, according to the New York Times. "This is emotional for Florida. And it should be."
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/politics/july-dec07/florida_08-27.html

Published: Monday, September 24, 2007
Florida defies Dems, moves up primary
Associated Press

PEMBROKE PINES, Fla. — The Florida Democratic Party is sticking to its primary date — and it printed bumper stickers to prove it.

State party leaders formally announced Sunday their plans to move ahead with a Jan. 29 primary, despite the national leadership's threatened sanctions.

The Democratic National Committee has said it will strip the Sunshine State of its 210 nominating convention delegates if it doesn't abide by the party-set calendar, which forbids most states from holding primary contests before Feb. 5. The exceptions are Iowa on Jan. 14, Nevada on Jan. 19, New Hampshire on Jan. 22 and South Carolina on Jan. 29.
http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20070924/NEWS02/709240045/-1/

Michigan defies parties, moves up primary date
JAN. 15 DECISION COULD SET OFF STAMPEDE OF STATES
By Stephen Ohlemacher
Associated Press
Article Launched: 09/05/2007 01:34:57 AM PDT

WASHINGTON - Michigan officially crashed the early primary party Tuesday, setting up showdowns with both political parties and likely pushing the presidential nomination calendar closer to 2007.
-------------------
The decision by the major Democratic candidates to campaign only in approved early states renders voting in the rogue states essentially non-binding beauty contests.
http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_6804685?source=rss

Editorial: Follow DNC rules on seating delegates
February 25, 2008
By Editorial Board

Senator Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) has suggested seating the Michigan and Florida delegates at the Democratic National Convention, even though the Democratic National Committee (DNC) stripped them of their status. The DNC originally set itself up for trouble by denying these influential states a place at the convention as punishment for scheduling their primaries too early in the year. However, the fact remains that, since each and every Democratic presidential candidate pledged not to campaign in these states and to abide by the DNC’s decision, these delegates should not be seated at the convention.

On September 1, the campaigns of Clinton and Senator Barack Obama (D-Ill.) issued press releases stating that they had signed pledges affirming the DNC’s decision to approve certain representative states and sanction others for moving their nominating contests earlier. But now that the race is close, Clinton — whose top advisor Harold Ickes voted as a member of the DNC to strip Florida and Michigan of their delegates — is pushing for the delegates to be seated.

Her argument is that not doing so disenfranchises the 1.7 million Florida Democrats who voted and that her pledge promised only that she wouldn’t campaign in the states, not that she wouldn’t try to seat the delegates. However, the results of the contests in Florida and Michigan are not necessarily representative of the voters’ preferences in those states. Given that most of the candidates removed their names from the Michigan ballot, and that many voters stayed home from the vote in Florida with the understanding that their contest would not affect the final delegate count, the delegate totals that the candidates accumulated in these states may not accurately reflect the will of the voters. Had there been no restrictions in Michigan and Florida, the turnout, and thus the results, may have been different.

The Four State Pledge all candidates signed on Aug. 28 stated, “Whereas, the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee will strip states of 100% of their delegates and super delegates to the DNC National Convention if they violate the nomination calendar... Therefore, I ____________, Democratic Candidate for President, in honor and in accordance with DNC rules ...pledge I shall not campaign or participate in any election contest occurring in any state not already authorized by the DNC to take place in the DNC approved pre-window.” When the candidates pledged to campaign only in approved states, they were also agreeing to the terms listed above, which explicitly mentioned stripping noncompliant states of their entire delegation.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently said that the Florida and Michigan delegates should not be seated if they would decide the nomination. Other compromise proposals include holding new nominating contests in these states, but such contests would be expensive and cumbersome. The irony is that had Florida and Michigan not moved up their primaries, they would have voted in February and March, when they would have been even more important than in earlier months in determining the Democratic nominee — and would not have created an enormous controversy that has the potential to divide the party.
http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2008/2/25/editorialFollowDncRulesOnSeatingDelegates

Voters Face Confusion in Michigan Dem Race
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/01/09/voters_face_confusion_in_michi.html
January 9, 2008
By Peter Slevin
CHICAGO --

"People are already frustrated here in Detroit because they can't cast a ballot for Obama. Many on their absentee ballots many have tried to write in Obama, but they have spoiled the ballots," said Sam Riddle, Monica Conyers's chief of staff. "We know we've got to educate the voters in a hurry."

Kucinich Files Affidavit To Remove Name From Michigan's Primary Shortly Before Deadline

October 10, 2007 8:19 a.m. EST
Ayinde O. Chase - AHN Staff
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7008781843
Dover, NH (AHN) - The Kucinich for President campaign Tuesday afternoon officially requested that Kucinich's name be withdrawn from the Michigan Democratic primary ballot. The affidavit came by way of to the Michigan Secretary of State's office.

The Ohio Congressman and Democratic Presidential candidates National Campaign manager Mike Klein said in the statement, "We signed a public pledge recently, promising to stand with New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina, and the DNC-approved 'early window', and the action we are taking today protects New Hampshire's first-in-the-nation primary status, and Nevada's early caucus."

The statement continued: "We support the grassroots nature of the New Hampshire, small-state primary, and we support the diversity efforts that Chairman Dean and the DNC instituted last year, when they added Nevada and South Carolina to the window in January 2008. We are obviously committed to New Hampshire's historic role." Klein who actually recently moved to Dover said, "We will continue to adhere to the DNC-approved primary schedule."

Governor Granholm and other Michigan Democratic leaders have openly criticized the decision by several presidential candidates to keep their names off the state primary ballot.

The Michigan lawmakers are taken back by Barack Obama, Joe Biden, John Edwards and Bill Richardson's decision to withdraw their names from the January 15th ballot.

The only ones who remain on Michigan's primary ballot are Hillary Clinton, Mike Gravel and Chris Todd.

[Eurobabe]

51. Thank you for the sanity, Madfloridian.

What we've all been saying. Kick and Rec'd :kick:

[madfloridian]

72. Well, I am keeping my sanity...

by not seeing a lot of the posts here. They are not visible to me...heh heh.

[Eurobabe]

86. Gotcha.

Love.ignore.user.feature

LOL.

[Hoof Hearted]

70. It's a stupid argument from Dean the idiot and you know it.

I'm sure he'll appreciate your adoration when his ass gets sent to the junkyard of history and his only claim to fame is one of the biggest fucking political blunders in the short narrative of this country.

[joshcryer]

74. "Florida Democrats to stick with Jan. 29 primary despite threat of losing delegates"

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (AP) -- The Florida Democratic Party will stick with a Jan. 29 presidential primary even if it means losing all its nominating convention delegates, a party source said Saturday.

The Democratic National Committee gave the state party until Sept. 29 to come up with an alternative delegate selection plan to stay within party rules, such as caucuses or a vote-by-mail primary, but party leadership has rejected that idea.

State party Chairman Karen Thurman, members of the congressional delegation and state legislative leaders were scheduling a news conference Sunday to announce their position. State party staff has been polling executive committee members and determined at least 75 percent support for the early primary, the source said. The source spoke on condition of anonymity because executive committee members were still be notified.

<...>

Florida will vote on a constitutional amendment during its primary election that could significantly cut property taxes. Democratic party leaders felt pushing their delegate selection plan past Feb. 5 would have affected turnout in the ballot question. Florida Republicans back a Jan. 29 primary, knowing that the national party could strip the state of half its delegates.


http://www.fladems.com/content/w/florida_democrats_to_stick_with_jan_29_primary_despite_threat_of_losing_del

---

Such lies posted by the OP. I will have to correct them from now on.

[StevieM]

73. OK...so hold do-overs. That argument only pertains to the existing delegations

They don't need to be punished for thinking the wrong way.

And the people of Florida and Michigan have no interest in splitting the delegates 50/50--they could care less about sending some random people from their states to some convention in Denver.

Obama doesn't care that he is destroying the party through his reprehensible conduct. All this man cares about is himself. He is not a man who belongs in public office.

Steve

[madfloridian]

76. The states won't try to do do-overs. Dean told them they could...

now they don't want to bother. :shrug:

[madfloridian]

82. So why not blame the STATES for not doing do-overs they were told they could do?

Unless, they want to keep shifting the blame. I hope someday to find out how many meetings FL and MI had beforehand.

Everyone wants to blame everyone but the ones who really did it.

[Kurovski]

79. K&R. (nt)

[grantcart]

80. just wanted to say I read all of you posts and without your commentary on Florida

I would be completely ignorant. Thank you


BTW who is the genius in the party that had the guts to stand up and vote against the bill?

[madfloridian]

81. His name was Jack Seiler.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

"But some, like state Rep. Jack Seiler, a Wilton Manors Democrat who was the only House member to vote against the bill, believe Florida's earlier primary will hurt underdog candidates who don't have enough money to compete in large media markets at an early stage. He's been impressed with former Sen. John Edwards of North Carolina and New Mexico Gov. Bill Richardson, but hasn't yet endorsed anyone.

"You're essentially going to make this into a straight money race," Seiler said, benefiting "whomever comes out of 2007 with the most money to prepare for these large states."

[grantcart]

109. can we just make him head of the FDP? He seems to be the only one there that has a brain.

[madfloridian]

110. I think he is not going to run again.

:shrug:

Not sure why.

[madfloridian]

85. Florida did not act "in good faith", and they knew the consequences

Hat Tip to BozGuy in this thread for this comment. :evilgrin:

Saying the rules changed when they made the judgement is like saying the law was changed when a judge gives someone probation instead of jail time. The law doesn't change, the judge has the options under the law just like here.

To put it into terms you might understand better the rules(laws) didn't change the judge(DNC Committee)set the sentence to its strictest (loss of all delegates) rather than probation (half delegates loss) because the drunk and or pot head (Florida Dems) punched the cop (The DNC Committee) while he broke the law (rules)

Here is the pertinent "in good faith" quote from the DNC December 2005 meeting:

The state party shall have the burden of proving by clear and convincing evidence that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith to achieve legislative changes to bring the state law into compliance with the pertinent provisions of these rules and that it and the other relevant Democratic party leaders and elected officials took all provable, positive steps and acted in good faith in attempting to prevent the legislative changes which resulted in state law that fails to comply with the pertinent provisions of these rules.

DNC meeting, pdf format

This is NOT in good faith. This is the senate minority leader in Florida scoffing at the DNC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpHuQi17EaE

Here are only two of the ones who started it. They continue today to scoff.

Two who started the Florida Fiasco call on others to fix it.



State Sens. Jeremy Ring, D-Fort Lauderdale, left and Steven Geller, D-Hallandale call on the Democratic candidates to resolve the primary issue at a press conference on Wednesday March 19, 2008 in Tallahassee, Fla. (AP Photo/Steve Cannon

That is not all. Even this week they continue to blame the DNC for their lack of "good faith."

Florida Hillary superdelegate publicly demands Dean resign...Corrine Brown.

[riskpeace]

88. Why do you still limit the truth on this matter?

You consistently leave out the link to the verified voting bill that got rid of touch screens and got a paper trail. If you are a Florida Democratic voter, why are so happy that we are getting screwed?

[madfloridian]

90. Then blame the right people. Let them be honest, and I will hush.

If they stop, I stop.

[riskpeace]

92. I've consistently said that it has less to do with blame,

and more to do with winning. People are persuaded by emotion. There's a feature in my local paper called "The Squall Line." Folks can write in online with anonymous one-liners. Here's one they printed today (and I did not write it):

"If the Florida Democratic Party will not count my vote now, I can be certain that the Republicans will do so in November."

This strategy of disenfranchising your base in two swing states is really stupid. The Democratic party worries about being right and the need to "blame the right people," while the Republican party simply intends to win and the need to be effective.

[madfloridian]

93. Yes, the win at all costs strategy. No right or wrong, just win.

Got it.

Let FL and MI have their way, forget rules. Forget morality, forget it all.

Just win.

[george_maniakes]

94. Forgive me, but im a little lost.

1. Did the florida democrats know that they could lose all of their delegates when they voted yes on that bill to move the primary?

2. Would the primary date have been moved up anyways if all the democrats voted no, and if yes, why penalize florida democrats if the date was beyond their control?

3. How is it possible that the state of florida decides when the democratic party holds its primary?

4. Are any florida republicans pissed at their delegates being cut in half?

[madfloridian]

95. Yes, they had been warned repeatedly by the DNC

They did know they were in danger of getting ALL of them stripped.

Yes, the GOP could have moved the primary up just on Republican votes....BUT and this is important...if the Democrats had put up a fight and voted nothey would not have lost their delegates.

It was done to be relevant.

Jeremy Ring (D-FL) said "relevance is more important than "partying" in
Denver.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1836

Guess Jeremy forgot that the decision he was making would hurt the voters who wanted a choice.

[george_maniakes]

96. so what is the debate about then?

Florida democrats fucked over florida democratic voters. They knew the consequences of their actions, and florida democrats paid the price.

[madfloridian]

97. Exactly. But the Florida voters don't blame Florida leaders.

They blame Obama and they blame Dean. That's the problem.

[housewolf]

102. I think I finally see your point

You're really angry right now that Dean is being made the bad-ass in all this, is that right?

[madfloridian]

104. Who gets the blame is vital....whoever the chairman is.

By blaming the national party, they will destroy any unity we had.

What FL did has snowballed into something much bigger than the ones who started it ever predicted. It was fun and games to them. It is not that now.

[Bensthename]

91. Play by the rules or don't play at all.. Tell her.

[Rubiconski2009]

100. Let Hillary be president of Florida... she 'deserves' something and Florida deserves her.

I am tired of Florida's corruption, crooks and scandals. I am sick of all of Hillary's multiple personalities, innuendos, and dirty politicing. Why don't we just separate Florida from the rest of the United States and make Hillary the President of Florida. We get rid of a lousy state that the tax payers have to rebuild every year after hurricane season, and she gets to be a President. In Florida, she can visit foriegn leaders on behalf of her people (Castro), claim success with health care since half the population already has medicare, and Bill can hang out at the beach during Spring Break.

[Obamanaut]

107. We already have alligators and mosquitoes - must you wish this

burden on us as well?

[skepticscott]

111. So will the Democrats now move to fix the REAL problem?

And the Republicans with them? Everyone knows what precipitated all of this. Every other state that holds primaries is fed up with two small, lily-white, unrepresentative states having a hugely disproportionate influence on who gets chosen to run for president. And every election cycle, the parties hem and haw and delay until the primaries are too close and everyone is afraid of honking off NH and IA voters by even discussing a plan to change things. Florida and Michigan finally got fed up enough to do something-yes, it was ham-handed and stupid and they knew and deserved the consequences, but who can blame them for having had enough?

Will the Democrats finally (starting the DAY after the election) work to put a system in place whereby every state gets their chance at being first or at least among the first to hold primaries? Will someone in the DNC finally have the balls to tell NH and IA that they've had their turn at being first (over and over and over and over), and now other states are going to get their chance? If they want to pout and kick and scream and hold their breath until they turn blue, let them. Even they know that the current system in unfair. Can we finally stop dancing around this problem and just do what needs to be done?

[depakid]

114. Agreed. Iowa with its archaic caucus system and tiny, quirky New Hamphire

carrying so much weight is absurd.

[wileedog]

120. Although I'll reiterate we can't do this mid-inning in this election

I'm all for it before we go through this nonsense again next time.

[skepticscott]

122. No question

But it needs to be the party's #1 priority as soon as the election is over, win or lose. The longer they wait, the harder it will be.

[bigtree]

112. the people of Florida didn't make that vote. Party insiders did.

Count the votes of the PEOPLE, not the party insiders.

[wileedog]

116. Then get new party insiders.

Or better yet elect actually competent one's next time.

[calicat]

115. LOL! A contradiction in your first sentence!

"Florida KNEW they could lose ALL their delegates if they voted yes to move the primary"

"the rules say that there is an AUTOMATIC penalty of 50%"

LOL!

By the way, dear Florida will be seated. You had better get used to the idea now.

[madfloridian]

117. No contradiction. 50% automatic....100% optional by DNC.

There you are again. Trying to make me look bad, trying to find flaws. I am sure you will find something if you follow me and look hard enough.

The delegate may be seated, probably will, but their votes won't help choose a nominee.

[calicat]

119. Not what you said, dear

"Florida KNEW they could lose ALL their delegates if they voted yes to move the primary"

"the rules say that there is an AUTOMATIC penalty of 50%"

So how did they KNOW they would lose all when the rules called for 50%?

Hmmm?

[madfloridian]

123. I don't think you read this. So I will repeat it.

And then say good by to you.

"At its meeting on August 25, 2007, the DNC RBC found Florida’s plan in noncompliance with the DNC rules, and voted to increase the sanctions against Florida by reducing the state’s delegation by 100% unless the state party, within the 30-day period allowed by the
Committee’s regulations, submitted a plan for an alternative, state party-run process on or after February 5 that would be used to allocate delegate positions."

The rest is lies. That is truth. They had 30 days, and they refused.

[joshcryer]

127. They had 30 days and refused because they had important state level elections to worry about.

The DNC did not take these to consideration when they stripped them of their delegates. It was a bad move.

[calicat]

133. And Florida Democrats had the votes to change it?

It's sad seeing you twist in the wind, grinding an axe with your own state party.

[hayu_lol]

121. Mad...how much of the struggle to move up the primary date...

was motivated by the thought of the 'big bucks' that would be spent in the early primaries? That almost certainly had to have been a factor when this demented plan was first proposed methinks.

All the rest was just smoke and mirror justification.

[madfloridian]

124. That played a big role.

:hi:

[madfloridian]

118. I thought so. Posting facts makes no difference at all.

That is the hatred FL has spawned. This will be their legacy.

[undeterred]

125. I'd be really pissed off if the party insiders in my state

pulled something like that. But I don't think they would. After this year I hope the other states will learn from this and play by the rules, however much they don't like the rules.

[CTLawGuy]

129. self-delete

NT

[Freddie Stubbs]

130. You meant to say "Florida LEGISLATORS knew"

[Deep13]

131. Who is Florida? Misconduct by state officials cannot be the basis for disenfranchisement.

"...it is time to hush and let the party heal."

What the fuck does that mean? This division is your fault. Whatever spin you put on it, it is the supporters of O. apparently with full acquiesence of the campaign and perhaps even at their direction that have purposely alienated much of the party loyalists. Obama has zero chance in November. None. (So when does he pass out the God Damn America rally signs?) I will never forgive him or his worshippers for blowing this opportunity or for destroying this party.

Frankly, I expect a new party to emerge in fact if not in name that will occupy the political center. I expect it will be started largely by D.s for are 1. sick of losing elections and 2. have been alienated by O.

How the fuck are we supposed to win in November without Michigan and FL? Do you think they will forgive this violation of the most basic of democratic rights? And how the hell can we deride the R.s for rigging elections when we refuse to count whole states?

[madfloridian]

132. Maybe that is why they did it after all. You are blaming me? Unreal.

That is a new way to take the blame off Florida. Put the blame on me. Hey, good one.

Maybe they did not care if we won the election...only that they got to be first.