Hillary is "a ventriloquist for the patriarchy with a skirt and a vagina."

[IndianaGreen]

(Hillary) is "a ventriloquist for the patriarchy with a skirt and a vagina."

-- Jane Fonda

Hillary's "Feminist Problem"

The Nation: Feminists Rescind Their Support For Former First Lady

June 16, 2007

"I love so completely that, honestly, she would have to burn down the White House before I would say anything bad about her!" exclaimed Nora Ephron in a 1993 Newsday interview. Three years later, she told the Wellesley class of 1996, "Understand: Every attack on Hillary Clinton for not knowing her place is an attack on you." Come late 2006, however, Ephron was the one on the attack as one of the self-described "Hillary resisters" — those who believe that "she will do anything to win, who believe she doesn't really take a position unless it's completely safe," as she wrote on her Huffington Post blog, "who believe she has taken the concept of triangulation and pushed it to a geometric level never achieved by anyone including her own husband, who can't stand her position on the war, who don't trust her as far as you can spit."

This rather dramatic change of heart encapsulates one of the great ironies of Hillary Clinton's bid for the presidency. Many of the very same feminists who were her most ardent supporters as First Lady are now fiercely opposed to her historic bid to become the first female President of the United States. The woman once described by Susan Faludi as a symbol of "the joy of female independence" now evokes ambivalence, disdain and, sometimes, outright vitriol. The right wing's favorite "femi-nazi" now has to contend with Jane Fonda comparing her to "a ventriloquist for the patriarchy with a skirt and a vagina."

So what's up with the Hillary-bashing? "Women don't trust Hillary. They see her as an opportunist; many feel betrayed by her," wrote Susan Douglas in a May In These Times article titled "Why Women Hate Hillary." A month later, in her Newsweek column, Anna Quindlen declared, "The truth is that Senator Clinton has a woman problem."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/06/15/opinion/main2...

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Jane Fonda Is A Liar

There's no evidence whatsoever that Clinton owns a skirt.

None.

[tokenlib]

4. Oh my God...I almost spewed coffee all over the keyboard n/t

[Emit]

8. lol!

"ah-hem" <composes self>

[City Lights]

10. ROFL!

Spot on, Manny!

[XemaSab]

12. *snap*

[Hepburn]

13. I did spew coffee.....

....

[DearAbby]

15. Snarf

::wipes nose::

[burythehatchet]

61. Good one Manny. Clear some space on the mantle for a DUzy n/t

[Catherina]

78. What a classic!

Thank you

[11 Bravo]

79. I don't care who you support. THAT is an instant classic!

[Cha]

82. Too much information

from Jane Fonda!

[KittyWampus]

84. snap!

[JackORoses]

2. Exactly. What's the point of electing a woman if she acts like all the Old Men that came before?

That is not progress, only the illusion of such.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. Just How Is She Supposed To Act? What Qualities Of A Strong Woman Is She Not Putting Forth?

[JackORoses]

47. Honesty. Integrity. Loyalty. Compassion.... need I go on?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

50. Men Are Dishonest, Have No Integrity, Loyalty, Or Compassion? That's Pretty Dumb.

Those are arguments (though of which I disagree with) as to why you would not prefer her as the nominee. Not ONE of them bolsters or makes sense of your argument that she's acting like a man and not a woman. So care to try again, or was that failure the only attempt you had?

[JackORoses]

53. A Mother doesn't vote for War, yet Hillary did. She had to prove she was as strong as a man.

A Mother doesn't vote for Cluster Bombs, yet Hillary did

A Mother doesn't vote to declare Foreign Nations as Terrorists.

A Mother doesn't make it harder for other single mothers going through bankruptcy.

A Mother doesn't tell people she will give them Healthcare, but actually only delivers mandatory insurance.

A Mother doesn't aid and abet the opposition Party, who could very well take away a Woman's Right to choose if they prevail.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

57. Who The Fuck Is Voting For A Mother? Have You Friggin Lost It?

Holy cow.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

59. And Were You Just Really Sexist Enough To Declare That Being A Woman Means Being A Mother?

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tigereye]

68. wouldn't any woman running for office have to tackle these questions?

she isn't running as a mom, though. Any woman running for office would have to take some stands others don't agree with.


It's really weird how, aside from some of her problematic votes, she is seen as a lightning rod for "how women should or should not act."

[hedgehog]

76. "She isn't running as a mom , though. "

That's why Chelsea has been kept away from the campaign and allowed to continue her private life.







Oh, wait.......

[11 Bravo]

80. Don't you find it interesting that a loud-mouthed male ...

has taken it upon himself to determine what constitutes a Mom. That guy sounds like your garden variety Repuke SCOTUS nominee. Once he decides who is fit to be a Mom, it's a short step to telling them what should or should not be done with their uterus.

[Cha]

83. Thanks for the post Jack..

This should be a hard hitting ad from some Mothers who oppose hilary.

Hard hitting 'cause it's the facts regarding hilary.

[MichiganVote]

3. Because Jane Fonda has been such an inspiration to so many...

[Bucky]

14. I wonder how she and Gloria Steinem will get along next time they cook on Colbert

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

39. Yes she has. Deservedly so.

[Honeycombe8]

41. She has been an inspiration to me (Fonda, not Clinton). It has become cool to...

denigrate her, thanks to conservatives and thanks to some wacko things she did in her youth during the Vietnam War. Still, for this middleaged working woman who watched Fonda grow into herself on camera and in the news, and become a successful business person in her own right, she became someone to emulate in many way.

A joke to some. But not a joke to me. She was one of the few women I saw, when I was young, who spoke with confidence about serious matters, who spoke with a grownup voice about war, who spoke without coyness about politicians, who spoke seriously about exercising the body and the mind. It's commonplace today, but way back when, it was not.

Hail to thee, O Fonda.

[burythehatchet]

63. I have always had a warm place in my heart for her. n/t

[nradisic]

5. DLC much?

Wow! Thant's a fucking statement and a half by Jane...

[TheZug]

6. How in the hell could she ever have been a feminist icon?

She rode the coattails of her husband to get where she is--I don't recall that being praised in feminist literature.

What's more, her husband had sex with an employee half his age. Never mind the Rethug impeachment; the fact is that any other man who did that would have been labeled by some radical feminists as basically a rapist. I don't necessarily agree with that, but it was a terrible situation in any case.

And yet there's Hillary, hugging hubby, willing to forget anything if it advances her agenda.

Disgusting.

[Bucky]

11. I wonder if she even knows what a ventriloquist is. Doesn't she mean "ventriloquist's dummy"?

[TheZug]

24. Good point. Yes, probably.

[XemaSab]

17. She was less than half his age

more like 2/5.

[progdog]

19. I've asked the same question

I see her as an enabler for her own selfish interests because she knew she couldn't get to where she is without Bill. I can't forget who holds a lot of the responsibility for where we are today. She gets no respect from this woman.

[IndianaGreen]

25. Hillary reminds me of the sort of woman we working women hate

You know the type. There is at least one in every shop or office we have ever worked.

[progdog]

32. Yes I do!

Have you noticed they always nod their head up and down when they are lieing? Just a side note.

[Hepburn]

35. Excellent point!

My gal pals and I refer to that group as "them" as opposed to "us." Unfortunately, as of late, there appars to be way to many of the "them."

[mtnsnake]

42. "we working women"

[IndianaGreen]

44. Yes. we are not part of Hillary's investor class

We sell our labour in order to make ends meet.

[Honeycombe8]

54. Well, I am BOTH. I work for $$$ AND I invest (a lot of us "working women" do, if only...

if only in our 401k's).

[Honeycombe8]

45. What's wrong with "we working women"? There are many who don't work for compensation. nt

[JVS]

48. I'm not a fan of the poster you asked that to, but I feel obligated to point out...

that the term "working woman" was once a euphemism for a hooker. Thus "we working women" could be interpreted as "we hookers"

[IndianaGreen]

55. Obviously you are not a Marxist like me. Working men and women is who we are, unless one is part...

of the investor class, or the capitalist class. We sell our labour, and it is through the sale of our labour that the capitalists profit.

[JVS]

56. I know this. I'm just pointing out that the phrase has an alternate reading; a crude one at that

[GirlinContempt]

64. That has nothing to do with Marxism. Come ON.

He has a valid point.

[dansolo]

67. I thought the term was "working girl"

[JVS]

I think both have been used. Working girl is more frequent though.

Maybe the person who thought "we working women" was so funny in the first place would be the best one to clear it up

[mtnsnake]

77. Isn't that just crushing news

lmao

[Scurrilous]

7. K & R

[Bucky]

9. I've been waiting months to say this.... It's... VAGINAGATE

V A G I N A G A T E ! ! ! 1 ! ! eleven

[leftofthedial]

16. shouldn't that be "ventriloquist's "*dummy*"?

[JVS]

52. yeah, but people are probably afraid to call her a dummy

[bigtree]

18. you folks have NOTHING to complain about with the vile threads on Obama

you bring them on yourself with these types of posts. Disgusting, no matter who said this.

[Bucky]

20. A notoriously over the top poster like IndyGreen reports a Fonda quote. It has nothing to do w/Obama

nor anything to do with his campaign, which has been, if anything, a little too principled too long about staying clean in the mudfight.

[mtnsnake]

23. IndianaGreen has vagina on the brain....

IndianaGreen is the same one who called Hillary "Joe Lieberman with a vagina." I think many of these Greens really have some serious problems when it comes to dealing with human nature and the reality that it takes to getting elected in this country if you're a female.

[City Lights]

21. K&R.

Lots of good stuff in that article, IndianaGreen. Thanks.

[cindyw]

22. If you can't support Hillary because she will do anything to win or her negativity that's okay.

I really think that feminists can definitely take this position and they are fulfilling the goals of feminism. Judging her as you would anyone else.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

26. Who Cares? Jane Fonda's An Idiot.

I mean, are there people out there who actually take her opinion seriously or put weight behind her opinion?

Let her say whatever she wants. She's irrelevant.

[Dinger]

27. SICK FUCKING POST!

Should make it to the "greatest" page soon.

[mtnsnake]

34. No kidding. It's coming from the same poster who loves to call Hillary "Joe Lieberman with a vagina"

so I guess we shouldn't be too surprised when she spews out more of the same sickening crap.

[Dinger]

36. Well, If The Post Is Sick, . . .

you can probably figure out the rest.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

46. It's The Nation via CBS.

The poster added no commentary.

[Phillycat]

29. Oh, that's a lovely thread title.

[Dinger]

33. Sadly, It's Typical Of Obama FOLLOWERS

[Yossariant]

30. Some women only like other women as long as they don't get too uppity. Then they eat their own.

[progdog]

37. What about men?

They do the same thing. I want to see a woman POTUS too. Just not this woman.

[Yossariant]

40. No, men do not. That's crap. It's a female thing.

[JAbuchan08]

71. That is a sexist thing you just said

men tear one another down all the time. The difference is that men don't go around expecting other men to vote for them because they are men. Men (to their credit) do not expect loyalty oaths based on their gender, neither do most women, but occassionally someone like Hillary comes around and takes advantage of sexism by interweaving her own fortunes with those of all women positioning her own success as success for all women and her failures as failures for all women.

This idea that women *have* to rally around Clinton or else they are "disloyal" is not only sexist, but it is offensive to women AND men who actually put thought and consideration into their votes rather than just voting for the correct set of genitalia.

Sorry to drop a pop-culture reference on you, but it reminds me of the Futurama episode where Leela becomes the first female blurnsball player, the only problem is she makes a joke of female atheletes and takes the honor of breaking that barrier away from the woman who deserves it.

THat is how I think of Hillary and her "barrier breaking" campaign. We take the barrier so seriously that we don't really care who's breaking it.

[Yossariant]

72. Balls. Many women eat their own to pander to men, I wasn't born yesterday.

Men don't feel the need. Trust me.

If it's sexist, tough. It's a fact.

[JAbuchan08]

73. Expecting women to be a homogenous front for an undeserving candidate is what's sexist

they are only "eating their own" if you feel that women owe their loyalty to other women based only on their gender.

Women who oppose Hillary could make the same claim, that female Hillary supporters are "eating their own" by tearing down women who might not see it the same way.

[Yossariant]

75. Calm down. I doubt that every, single black person is an Obamaton.

Generally, though, black people are voting for Obama.

But if he were a woman, aside from the fact that he would be in DC right now, many women would be using the "I'd vote for a woman, but not THAT woman."

Of course, every generalization has its exceptions.

I have not said that "women owe their loyalty to other women based only on their gender."

You did.

But the fact remains that many women get their identities from men.

I'm not even saying there's anything wrong with it.

Men have set the standard throughout history.

Denying it is trying to deny what every grown up in the world knows and that doesn't make it less true.

No matter how often you repeat a lie, it doesn't become the truth.

I don't characterize all women as "the self-hating handmaidens of adolescent bully boys" but to deny that many are is to deny reality.

Sorry if it hurts your feelings.

[JAbuchan08]

94. I was perfectly calm when I wrote that

I was simply pointing out that Hillary supporters could just as easily be described as tearing down other women - it's a question of perspective.

The point is that to dismiss the concerns of some women have about Hillary outright as a biological imperative to trash other *seems* kind of sexist to me. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but *maybe* just *maybe* the women who do not like Hillary are acting on something other than their inheirant female irrationality

[Dinger]

31. Watch This Get 500 Recs & Then Locked (nt)

[JimGinPA]

38. Jane Fonda Is Just Wrong...

It's pantsuits...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

43. K&R for Jane Fonda.

[apocalypsehow]

49. Excellent OP. K & R.

[JVS]

51. Hillary Clinton, patriarchy, ventriloquist, vagina...

I don't know how, but there has to be some kind of "read my lips" joke to be made of the situation.

[Dinger]

58. 14 Recs, Nice Job (Sarcasm)

[Dinger]

60. Lots Of Men (Dem or repuke) Are "Thinking" & Voting With Their D**ks

And like-mined women too.

[lumberjack_jeff]

65. I've been known to think with mine.

But not about politics.

[Dinger]

70. I Sure Didn't Mean You

But I think I understand your sentiment

[Major Hogwash]

66. I love Jane Fonda.

But honestly, couldn't she have just used the term "va-jay-jay" instead?

All the kids are using it.

LoL

[David Zephyr]

69. Yikes!

Ouch.

[AtomicKitten]

74. Jane Fonda is a sassy pistol.

[Catherina]

81. Nora Ephron and Jane Fonda are sexists

Jane Fonda even played a real monster in Monster-In-Law



Recommended for as a sanity check.

[AZBlue]

85. There are many of us who have had a change of heart regarding Clinton.

I never embraced her quite the way Ephron did, but I certainly felt very differently about her than I do today. VERY differently.

[Johnny Potpie]

86. ..

[Jillian]

87. nice.

[New Dawn]

88. K&R

[NashVegas]

89. That's a Fantastic Article That Points Out Some Women Who Call Themselves Feminists Are Boneheads

Clinton's supporters also argue that women candidates are unfairly subjected to higher standards, especially by women themselves. It's why antiwar feminist organizations like CodePink are less likely to give her a pass for her Iraq vote than they would, say, John Edwards. Explaining the reasoning behind their "bird-dog Hillary" campaign to The Nation, founder Medea Benjamin wore her double standard on her sleeve: "You expect more of a woman."

...

Still, there's no question that Clinton bears an extra burden, not least because her victory would represent such a historic breakthrough. "The fantasy was that the first woman President would be someone who would turn the whole lousy system inside out and upside down. Instead the first significant woman contender is someone who seems to have the system down to a fine art," wrote Quindlen in her column.

Yet most feminists recognize that the chance of a true-blue lefty becoming the first female President is about as likely as that proverbial snowball's. Much as we like to bemoan our nation's backward ways in matters of female leadership, the kind of women who actually make it to the top in other parts of the world — leaving aside Chile's Michelle Bachelet — are cut from the same cloth as their male counterparts. Susan Douglas may accuse her of epitomizing "the Genghis Khan principle of American politics," but Hillary Clinton is not a patch on dear old Maggie Thatcher or Indira Gandhi, and she's definitely left of Germany's Angela Merkel.

[istopforcookies]

90. Senator Clinton has a vagina and a skirt?

No, really Jane?

I didn't know that...

Wow.

I must vote for Senator Obama because he has penis, and wears pants.

Yes, absolutely,

:ROFL:

Try again Jane.

Go Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton Go!

[Political Heretic]

91. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[bluedawg12]

92. Obama is a polished hack self promoter with a suit and a penis

probably a pair testicles too.


If you want to known more just ask Obamarosa,

But don’t ask him about the war, or NAFTA, unless the room is filled to 60,000 and opra is there to talk about her vajajay. Maybe at a rally in her Green Indiana Home.?

All hat not cattle.

He’s a shill for his own ego.

[Jamastiene]

93. Hanoi Jane...Another country heard from.

[Neshanic]

95. Jane Fonda. Right. Her list of craven flavor of the month issue/publicity neediness is astounding.

What's it going to be Barbarella? So What does that make you Jane? A North Vietnamese publicity whore with cannon between her legs?

She's so good at attaching her remora self to anything that makes her relevant through her myriad of personality changes and fads, it's a wonder she knows what the hell her script for waking up in the morning is.

[jgraz]

96. Hey, I'm just glad Jane didn't drop another C-bomb on us.