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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:14 PM
Original message
My top concerns about Obama
Edited on Mon Feb-25-08 03:17 PM by Truth2Tell
So I haven't made a decision about who to support yet. I'm an uncommitted delegate to my local LD convention and I hope to continue on to the next round and hopefully all the way to Denver.

I first supported Kucinich and then Edwards. Right now I lean toward Obama. I see a lot of positive in Obama - especially the way he energizes a new generation of Democrats. And I frankly can't stand Hillary. But I'm still on the fence. Obama has not yet closed the deal with me.

I have stayed away from GDP for the last few months because the mud has just been too much. But I figured I'd pop in for a bit and see if any Obama supporters would like to try to close the deal. Below are my top concerns with Obama. Please tell me why, as an anti-war progressive, I should vote for this candidate in light of these things. I'm listening.

My top concerns about Obama (in no particular order)

1. Cozying up to the DLC during his term in the Illinois Senate and during his run for U.S. Senate.

2. Choosing Joe Lieberman as his mentor in the Senate.

3. Doing fund raising events over the last 3 years primarily for the most conservative blue dog members of the Senate rather than for progressives or home-state grass roots groups.

4. Speaking to the CFR and elsewhere about bombing Iran and keeping all options, including the nuclear option, on the table.

5. Choosing Zbigneiw Brzezinski as his top foreign policy adviser, and including Dennis Ross, Samantha Power and a host of other neo-con leaning aids on his foreign policy team.

6. Abandoning and criticizing his fellow Illinois Senator Dick Durbin when Durbin courageously criticized conditions in U.S gulags at Guantanamo Bay on the Senate floor.

7. Refusing to call for full withdrawal from Iraq rather than simply a “reduction” of forces.

8. Voting for corporate sponsored “tort reform,” therefore making it more difficult for people to get redress in the courts for abuses.

9. Voting to reauthorize the Constitution shredding Patriot Act.

10. Promising “The Black Commentator” in 2003 that, if elected to the U.S. Senate, he would introduce bills creating national single-payer health insurance and requiring the U.S. to exit NAFTA; and then failing to do any such thing.

So there it is. Convince me this stuff doesn't matter. And thanks in advance for the substantive and thoughtful responses I'm sure I will get here. :)
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm sure you're very, very concerned.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I haven't been able to sleep for weeks. nt
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Yeah... His concern is noted... n/t
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I Vote In Pittsburgh Donating Member (387 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. I actually don't think he is concern trolling at all
Edited on Mon Feb-25-08 03:40 PM by I Vote In Pittsburgh
His post compliments Obama and even says he's leaning towards him. Also, your run-of-the-mill anti-Obama troll is about 1/20th as informed.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Thanks.
I will likely end up supporting Obama. I'll just do it with my eyes wide open. I've had hopes dashed too many times in my political life to get them up too high any more. I'll let the kids do that. And more power to them.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. ...
:popcorn:
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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. My response to a couple points
1. He went out of his way to repudiate the DLC and instructed them to take him off their list.

2. Lieberman was assigned to him, and it was simply to teach him the procedural rules. If he were really a Lieberman lackey, would Ned Lamont have endorsed him?

5. Brzezinski is not and never was his top foreign policy adviser. He consulted with Obama on a few occasions.

Will try to find links and answer other charges later.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Lamont supported him,
Edited on Mon Feb-25-08 03:23 PM by Truth2Tell
but more importantly HE supported Lieberman. He repudiated the DLC AFTER he was called to carpet by progressives in IL who he needed to win his election. If ZBig is not a "top adviser" then I have been misinformed. Please do elucidate.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. He repudiated the DLC after he was INFORMED by progressives...

... that he was on the DLC list. He didn't know they had him listed as a member which he never was.

Obama has met ZBig in person exactly one time. Obama says their only other contact were two or three email exchanges.


4. Speaking to the CFR and elsewhere about bombing Iran and keeping all options, including the nuclear option, on the table.

Obama was soundly criticized by Hillary for saying we should never use nukes. In other words, Hillary criticized him for doing exactly the opposite of what you apparently heard. So if what you misheard seriously concerns you, I guess this is a major point in Obama's favor.


7. Refusing to call for full withdrawal from Iraq rather than simply a "reduction" of forces.

He HAS called for a full withdrawal. Several times.


Where did you get your list of concerns? You may want to consider a new source given that several of these are 100% incorrect.


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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. so back some of this up
Do you have a link for the ZBig relationship stuff? Several people have said this in this thread so I'm willing to buy it. But I'd like to see more. I've seen a lot of people post that ZBig was a major adviser. If that's wrong then I got it wrong. But show me.

Also, do you have a link on "full withdrawal?" Non-equivocating on "advisors," and defending giant embassies, and "training" and that kind of BS?

Obama was criticized by Hillary for saying "we should never use nukes?" Show me. I'd love it if Obama said "we should never use nukes." But alas, I don't think so...
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. Links and a comment

"I do not share his views with respect to Israel. I have said so clearly and unequivocally," Obama said. "He's not one of my key advisers. I've had lunch with him once. I've exchanged e-mails with him maybe three times. He came to Iowa to introduce ... for a speech on Iraq."

Source: http://www.suntimes.com/news/sweet/811251,CST-NWS-sweet25.article


According to the report, "'I think it would be a profound mistake for us to use nuclear weapons in any circumstance,' Obama said, with a pause, 'involving civilians.'

Source: http://www.observer.com/2007/obama-says-no-nukes


The United States has embassies in most countries. And each and every one of those includes a detachment of US Marines to guard the embassy. We also have military personnel who act as advisors, trainers, observers, etc in scores of countries around the world. You seem to have a unique definition of full withdrawal, one which no one, not even Kucinich, would ever meet.


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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Thanks for the ZBig clarification.
That's useful.

I still have issues with the "involving civilians" part of that Nukes quote. There is no such thing as using Nukes without involving civilians.

As for the "advisers, trainers, observers, etc in scores of countries around the world," I have a problem with most of that as well. But the bigger problem happens when the deliberate vagueness leads to 10, 20 or 80,000 troops staying in Iraq for these broadly defined purposes. Marines at the embassy? Fine. Not that we'd even have much of an embassy if we really withdrew and let them run their own country. We wouldn't be very welcome there at that point anyway. We only need a Microsoft Campus style embassy if we think we're gonna run the country. Does Obama think we should do that?

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democrattotheend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. He supported Lieberman in the primaries
as did many Senate Dems, including liberals like Barbara Boxer. But didn't he actively campaign for Lamont after he won the primary?
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femmedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. He did support Lamont, post-primary but didn't campaign for him.
He sent an e-mail to some of his supporters stating his support for Lamont, which the Lamont campaign then forwarded to their supporters and, if I remember correctly, to the press. But he didn't come here in person, although many people asked him to.

Hillary also supported Lieberman before the primary, then donated money to Lamont's campaign after Lamont won.
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sallyseven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
46. Not to mention that Brzeinski
has a daughter on MSNBC working with Joe scarborough.
She has been pushing Obama since her father endorsed him.
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sallyseven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
47. Not to mention that Brzeinski
has a daughter on MSNBC working with Joe scarborough.
She has been pushing Obama since her father endorsed him.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. You have *no* credibility if you call Samantha Power a Neocon...
OMG... :rofl:
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smalll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I am wondering how the OP got that idea about Samantha Power myself.
Edited on Mon Feb-25-08 03:20 PM by smalll
But otherwise, OP, your questions seem quite serious and valid, and I hope some Obamatrons can answer them for you.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. OK, neo-lib. (same difference)
Imperialism for the good of the savages, not for self-interest. As always, of course.
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Could you back that up?
I'd love to hear...
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I don't want to turn this into a Samantha Power thread
Edited on Mon Feb-25-08 04:11 PM by Truth2Tell
but are you saying she doesn't support an interventionist foreign policy? That she doesn't adhere strongly to the view that the U.S. needs to maintain our massive military machine in order to be able to "project power" anywhere on Earth at any time? She just suggests that we should do this to promote "democracy and human rights" rather than self-interest. Read this book: http://www.eruditor.com/exec/books/item/9780061120145.html.en?currency=USD
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I own it and have read it several times...
Are you saying we should not intervene in cases of genocide?
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Who do you mean by "we"?
And what gives "us" the right to decide where to intervene? Doesn't that very presumption lead to resentment by others and breed more enemies for our children? And how do we continue to afford this policing for justice? Have our kids pay for it? And how do you insure that these noble rationales for intervention aren't co-opted and used to pursue ignoble ends, as they have been by all empires since the beginning of time?

Empires throughout history have always rationalized their intervention in the affairs of others by claiming the mantle of righteousness. As we speak this very mindset is bankrupting America morally and financially. Our present path needs a radical readjustment and Powers does not advocate that.

All IMHO of course.
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
9. My answers....

1. Clinton *IS* the DLC. Obama "cozying up to" the DLC. Which is worse?

2. That was before Lieberman decided to pull an end-around for his senate seat. I'm sure he regrets it now, but I have not heard Obama say that. Fair point, and if that is an important issue for you, then there's nothing I can say about it.

3. Your comment is misleading. He's done fund-raising events for conservative blue dogs, but ALSO for progressives. It's not either/or.

4. Makes him look like a reasonable candidate. Doesn't say he'd do it... just keep all options on the table. Like a good president should.

5. Brzezinski worked for Jimmy Carter. He's not a dove, but he's hardly a neocon.

6. Please post a link showing Obama "criticizing" Durbin.

7. This is false. Several times he said he'd push for full withdrawal within 18 months.

8. Can't defend this one. But Hillary voted for it to. It's a "wash" as far as determining your support.

9. See #8.

10. Your best argument. If this matters to you that much, vote for Hillary. Seriously.


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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
Edited on Mon Feb-25-08 03:40 PM by Truth2Tell

1. "Hillary is worse" is not an acceptable reason for me to support Obama. But, yes, you are right.

2. OK

3. I'd have liked to see more of a focus on progressivism. This is the core of my beef with him. Too much conciliation with those who would harm working people and support war.

4. I disagree that threatening the use of Nukes is "reasonable." I think it's nuts. But that's just me.

5. I was no fan of the Carter foreign policy as led by ZBig either. But I suspect I will never get what I'd like to see in this regard. The vast majority of Americans do not share my critical views of U.S. interventionism and militarism, so I suppose neo-con light is the best I should ever expect. :shrug:

6. Obama said, "we have a tendency to demonize and jump on and make mockery of each other across the aisle and that is particularly pronounced when we make mistakes. Each and every one of us is going to make a mistake once in a while... and what we hope is that our track record of service, the scope of how we've operated and interacted with people, will override whatever particular mistake we make." http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn04242006.html OK, so this is mild criticism, but it sure is not support for courageous remarks. It's distancing. And he does use the word "mistake" three times. That's critical, IMO.

8 & 9 See response 1

10. Not even an "all politicians do it" defense?
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. You were asking why you should support Obama....
You have four choices

1. Support Obama
2. Support Hillary
3. Support Nader
4. Support McCain

#1, #8, and #9 in your list all DO matter... because you have to weigh those questions against your four possible choices. If all candidates are not satisfactory for you in those areas, then you have to decide which one is "least bad".

In assuming that you, as a Democrat, really on have two choice... Obama or Clinton.... then my answers to you on #1, #8, and #9 are very relevant. Which of the candidates is "least bad" on those questions. From your perspective, the answer is Barack Obama.


As for #10... nope. Got no defense for it. My candidate (Obama) is not perfect. But he's the best we've got.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Yes, the lessor of evils argument
can apply, and will likely inform my choice. But I'd still like to have positive reasons to support someone too.

And yes, there will be no support by me of a non-Democrat. The only exception would be if some major Dem split the Party and ran as an independent. Gore for example. But the pigs would need to sprout wings first...
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
10. Also, Obama has repeatedly said he will shut down Guantanamo
and iirc, Senate mentors are assigned, not chosen by the incoming Senators.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. Do you have more on the mentor issue?
I am open to dropping that objection.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
12. OK
He has not cozied up to the DLC. He has purposely distanced himself from them, including writing them a letter to do so.

He did not choose Lieberman. Lieberman was assigned as his mentor to show him basic procedural stuff.

He has fundraised for dems, both progressives and bluedogs. I saw him when he came to campaign for Bernie in Burlington. And he didn't need to do that as Bernie isn't even a dem.

All presidential candidates address CFR and all say they'll keep all options on the table. All serious candidates that is.

Samantha Power is a neo-con, what utter horseshit. I suppose you think Clark is as well.

I'm done. I don't particularly give a fuck who those of your ilk vote for anyway.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #12
33. I didn't know he stumped for Bernie.
I will give him props for that. See, I actually learned something useful from you Cali. Imagine that.

But by "all serious candidates" do you mean all candidates who want to slurp from the military contractor and AIPAC lobby trough? Yes, I suppose that's the only way to get elected President in America.

And How So Very Serious Indeed!

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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
15. praising ronald reagan, cozying up to colin powell, and his remarks
about "the excesses of the 60's" and about hillary 'feeling down and attacking".
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
22. Zbig isn't his top FP advisor. He didn't choose Lieberman.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
50. He didn't seem to object to Lieberman.
Sounds like BS to me.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
25. OK.....
1. Cozying up to the DLC during his term in the Illinois Senate and during his run for U.S. Senate.


Barack Obama will not be carrying the Democratic Leadership Council’s baggage in his race to become the second Black person to represent Illinois in the U.S. Senate. The state senator and professor of constitutional law has told The Black Commentator that he is acting to have his name stricken from the “New Democrats Directory,” a list of several hundred DLC-affiliated elected officials.

“I am not currently, nor have I ever been, a member of the DLC,” said Obama, in a statement that substantially reflects a telephone conversation with Associate Editor Bruce Dixon, this weekend. “It does appear that, without my knowledge, the DLC…listed me in their ‘New Democrat’ directory,” Obama continued. “Because I agree that such a directory implies membership, I will be calling the DLC to have my name removed, and appreciate your having brought this fact to my attention.”
http://www.blackcommentator.com/48/48_cover.html




2. Choosing Joe Lieberman as his mentor in the Senate.

New senators are "assigned" mentors, they do not get to "select" who they want. Which is why Ned Lamont endorsed Barack Obama and Joe Lieberman endorsed John McCain.


3. Doing fund raising events over the last 3 years primarily for the most conservative blue dog members of the Senate rather than for progressives or home-state grass roots groups.

Obama did fund raising for those Democrats who were fighting to win in areas that were about defeating Republicans. That's how we came out of the 2006 election with a majority. It was those newly elected Democrats seats who previously had a Republican sitting in it that made the difference. That is why Obama supported them more than the "safe seat" Democrats.


4. Speaking to the CFR and elsewhere about bombing Iran and keeping all options, including the nuclear option, on the table.

All viable candidates did this, including John Edwards!
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2007/Edwards_Iran_must_know_world_wont_0123.html
However, Obama didn't go as far as neither Edwards nor Clinton and AIPAC had a problem with it.
http://www.forward.com/articles/12581/



5. Choosing Zbigneiw Brzezinski as his top foreign policy adviser, and including Dennis Ross, Samantha Power and a host of other neo-con leaning aids on his foreign policy team.

You must not be very well informed. To consider Brzezinski (Carter admin Sec. of State), Ross, and Power (of all people) as Neo-con leanings shows that you haven't done your homework. There's nothing more that I can say about this issue.



6. Abandoning and criticizing his fellow Illinois Senator Dick Durbin when Durbin courageously criticized conditions in U.S gulags at Guantanamo Bay on the Senate floor.


Obama Says Gitmo Facility Should Close

The Democratic presidential hopeful pledged to work side-by-side with the rest of the world on issues like nuclear proliferation, poverty, economic development in Latin America and the violence in Darfur.

"While we're at it," he said, "we're going to close Guantanamo. And we're going to restore habeas corpus. ... We're going to lead by example _ by not just word but by deed. That's our vision for the future."

Habeas corpus is a tenet of the Constitution that protects people from unlawful imprisonment
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/24/AR2007062401046.html

---------------
Human Rights Should Be Bigger than Politics
Senator Barack Obama delivered this speech on the floor of the US Senate, in reaction to Senate passage of S. 3930, Military Commissions Act of 2006, which approved US torture of detainees and strips Constitutional rights away from detainees.
Senator Obama decries the placement of politics over human rights, and condemns S. 3930. He states, "This is not how a serious Administration would approach the problem of terrorism."
http://usliberals.about.com/od/extraordinaryspeeches/a/ObamaTorture.htm

excerpts from Obama's statement...

In the five years that the President's system of military tribunals has existed, not one terrorist has been tried. Not one has been convicted. And in the end, the Supreme Court of the United found the whole thing unconstitutional, which is why we're here today.

We could have fixed all of this in a way that allows us to detain and interrogate and try suspected terrorists while still protecting the accidentally accused from spending their lives locked away in Guantanamo Bay. Easily. This was not an either-or question.

Instead of allowing this President - or any President - to decide what does and does not constitute torture, we could have left the definition up to our own laws and to the Geneva Conventions, as we would have if we passed the bill that the Armed Services committee originally offered.

Instead of detainees arriving at Guantanamo and facing a Combatant Status Review Tribunal that allows them no real chance to prove their innocence with evidence or a lawyer, we could have developed a real military system of justice that would sort out the suspected terrorists from the accidentally accused.

And instead of not just suspending, but eliminating, the right of habeas corpus - the seven century-old right of individuals to challenge the terms of their own detention, we could have given the accused one chance - one single chance - to ask the government why they are being held and what they are being charged with.
http://usliberals.about.com/od/extraordinaryspeeches/a/ObamaTorture.htm


http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9845595-7.html
For one thing, under an Obama presidency, Americans will be able to leave behind the era of George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and "wiretaps without warrants," he said. (He was referring to the lingering legal fallout over reports that the National Security Agency scooped up Americans' phone and Internet activities without court orders, ostensibly to monitor terrorist plots, in the years after the September 11 attacks.)

It's hardly a new stance for Obama, who has made similar statements in previous campaign speeches, but mention of the issue in a stump speech, alongside more frequently discussed topics like Iraq and education, may give some clue to his priorities.

In our own Technology Voters' Guide, when asked whether he supports shielding telecommunications and Internet companies from lawsuits accusing them of illegal spying, Obama gave us a one-word response: "No."




7. Refusing to call for full withdrawal from Iraq rather than simply a “reduction” of forces.



Sen. Obama (D-IL) writes in Foreign Affairs that the United States needs to move beyond Iraq and “refocus our attention on the broader Middle East.” One of the few presidential candidates who opposed the war (PDF) from the start, he says there is “no military solution” to the situation in Iraq. In January 2007, Obama proposed the Iraq War De-Escalation Act of 2007, which would reverse the troop surge and redeploy U.S. troops to Afghanistan and other locations in phases. He favors more funds for U.S. military equipment like night-vision goggles and reinforced Humvees, though his recent refusal to sign a war funding bill came under criticism from presidential aspirant John McCain (R-AZ), who, among other things, accused the senator of misspelling "flak jacket." Under Obama's plan, there may be a residual troop presence (NYT) in Iraq for security and training purposes. His bill has not yet been voted on.

In September 2007, Obama released his plan (PDF) to "responsibly end the war in Iraq," calling for a complete redeployment of U.S. troops from Iraq by the end of 2009, starting immediately. He also advocates a UN-led Iraqi constitutional convention in order to forge national reconciliation and to reach compromises on federalism, oil revenue sharing, and "de-Ba'athification." As president, Obama says he would establish an "international working group" to solve the Iraqi refugee crisis.

Obama opposes the establishment of permanent U.S. military bases (USA Today) in Iraq.

Obama opposes Defense Secretary Robert Gates' plan to "pause" U.S. troop withdrawal (CNN) from Iraq in July 2008. In February 2008, Obama said he "strongly" disagrees with Gates' proposal, and warned against waging "war without end in Iraq while ignoring mounting costs to our troops and their families, our security and our economy."
http://www.cfr.org/publication/14761/




8. Voting for corporate sponsored “tort reform,” therefore making it more difficult for people to get redress in the courts for abuses.

His record on Tort Reform votes is mixed, at best. http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/article.pl?article_id=27120&postDate=2007-01-20



9. Voting to reauthorize the Constitution shredding Patriot Act.


Obama Joined A Filibuster To Block Bush's Version Of The Patriot Act

2005: Obama Voted to Block a Conference Report on President Bush's Preferred Version of the PATRIOT Act. In 2005, Obama voted to block a vote on final passage of the original version of the PATRIOT Act reauthorization bill, which was supported by President Bush and sponsored by Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN). The bill made permanent 14 of the 16 provisions of the original Act, which was set to expire at the end of 2005. The two remaining provisions, which dealt with access to business records and "roving wiretaps," were both extended for four years.

The Final PATRIOT Act Conference Report Included Key Changes Based On a Bill Obama Cosponsored Almost a Year Earlier. In 2005, Obama cosponsored a bill, the Security and Freedom and Enhancement (SAFE) Act of 2005 (S. 737), which amended the PATRIOT Act to safeguard against privacy violations. The bill required added safeguards to the "roving wiretap" provisions of the PATRIOT Act, requiring that electronic surveillance warrants contain specific information about the identity of the target or the place being wiretapped, and requiring that surveillance of a place only be conducted when a suspect is present at that place. The bill also limited law enforcement's authority to delay notice of a search warrant to circumstances where issuing a warrant would endanger an individual's physical safety, result in an individual's flight from prosecution. The key changes made to the final conference report on the PATRIOT Act were based on provisions in the SAFE Act.
http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/01/05/fact_check_obamas_consistent_p_1.php
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. Thank you.
Some good stuff. I appreciate it. I'm still not convinced that he hasn't done a bunch of triangulating in an effort to make himself "viable." And I find that all so distasteful. Especially the Patriot Act crap. But maybe it's true that in today's American political climate you can't win without that. Maybe he will move left after we put him in office? Who knows really.

Also, maybe I go overboard with the neo-con labeling. These people are neo-liberals and yes, that is different. I happen to oppose the whole bi-partisan basis of American foreign policy so, like I said upthread, I'm not likely to get what I want in this regard anyway. I'd still like to see some newer blood than this on his foreign policy team.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #25
41. wow....I'm impressed...
I spent a little time moseying around.. but your explanations put my piddly one's to shame. Thanks...Again!!
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
27. Any concerns about Hillary??? I offer the following:
Hillary:

1) Takes more corporate/lobbyist money than ANYONE who has run for President this year, INCLUDING the Republicans.
2) Outright defends taking the corporate lobbyist money and gladly says she'll take more.
3) Strong support from and many close ties to the DLC. (Bill is a past chair of the DLC.)
4) Voted for the Iraq war and refuses to admit it was an error.
5) Voted to let the Bushies declare part of Iran's army "terrorists" to help fan that fire.
6) Longtime NAFTA supporter.
7) Goes negative on Obama relentlessly then screeches about a 3-week old Obama mailer.
8) Reduces herself to silly sarcastic attacks in her stump speeches while insulting religion and Obama supporters.
9) Reduces herself to silly cheap shots about "plagiarism" then plagiarizes a debate closing statement a half hour later.

And on and on and on we could go.

If you're defending the above, then I'm a little concerned about your concerns (not to mention your sense of logic.)
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Certainly not defending the above.
My Hillary concern list is much longer than my Obama concern list. I have plenty of concern to go around. :P
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I Vote In Pittsburgh Donating Member (387 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
32. Response to question #8
Edited on Mon Feb-25-08 04:19 PM by I Vote In Pittsburgh
The Class Action Fairness Act, for those of you who don't know, shifts most interstate class actions seeking more than $5 million to federal courts. It prevents plaintiffs from shopping for state courts with a history of ruling against corporations. Here is the argument in my business & society textbook that supports tort reform:

Consultants Tillinghast-Towers Perrin estimated that tort suits (not limited to product liability) cost the United States more than $200 billion per year, a sum equal to about 2 percent of the gross domestic product. Put another way, that sum amounts to a "tort tax" of $3,236 per year for a family of four. America's "tort tax" probably doubles that of most of western Europe, Canada, and Japan. As a result, American businesses must struggle with rising costs (especially insurance), innovation is reduced, and new jobs are less plentiful. All of this comes, of course, in a fiercely competitive global market. Further, a big frustration to the critics is that much of the tort money goes to lawyers rather than to the injured plaintiffs. For further criticism of tort claims and our legal system generally, see http://www.overlawyered.com or www.legalreformnow.com" (Law, Business, and Society by Tony McAdams, 2007)


As you can see, this is not a simple issue, and the economic benefits of tort reform can be significant. It makes it easier for corporations to provide health insurance, which would appeal to Obama and Hillary.

My textbook also gives an argument against tort reform, which I have omitted, but can provide upon request. Certainly, the opposing viewpoint is valid as well. The point I am making is that tort reform is not a simple issue, and can appeal to both conservative and liberal ideologies.
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. I don't want to turn this into a tort reform thread either
but your post is pure right wing sewage. Grover Norquist would be proud of you.
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I Vote In Pittsburgh Donating Member (387 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. Sorry
Edited on Mon Feb-25-08 05:03 PM by I Vote In Pittsburgh
I didn't mean to post right wing propaganda. I didn't fully think it through before defending his vote, and was blindly protecting my candidate of choice. Do you think that Obama accepted bribes from corporations in return for his tort reform vote?
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. No.
I don't think he accepted bribes. I think he rationalized and triangulated. I think he felt that a no vote would cost him with insiders who he needed to appease to maintain his Presidential viability and that he felt the costs wouldn't really be too high with his base supporters who largely opposed the bill. I think it was political calculation, not corruption.

But try and explain that to five-year-old girl who has had her insides sucked out by a faulty swimming pool drain.
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I Vote In Pittsburgh Donating Member (387 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. It does stick out in his senate voting record
Edited on Mon Feb-25-08 06:36 PM by I Vote In Pittsburgh
In the Illinois state legislature, he voted to put a cap on punitive damages in medical lawsuits. Although he makes far fewer pro-business votes than one other democratic candidate, these tort votes really stick out. However, his pro-tort tilt existed in his state legislature days, so maybe it isn't a political calculation. But, that would mean he believes in tort reform. Pick your poison, I guess.
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ElsewheresDaughter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
35. good thread....
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
45. Maybe I should add a concern #11 about Obama:
Cali supports Obama and ElsewheresDaughter supports Hillary.

Gives me pause. :) :hi:
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
37. Ultimately you have to go with your gut instinct
Personally, I think all Democrats ought to talk and behave like Bernie Sanders.

But since that's not gonna happen this year, one has to choose among the available alternatives.

I supported Edwards as the best mainstream candidate who was closest to a clear progressive.

I do not like what the Clintons and the DLC have done to the Democratic Party. I believe a return to power of the Clintons would be bad for Democrats and bad for America at this juncture. (Not as bad as McCain, of course, but we can do a lot better than Clintonian Centrism at this juncture.)

Obama is a bit too tame and cozies up to special interests a bit too much to the corporate interests for my tastes. But I also believe he has injected a lot of positive energey and enthusiasm into the Democratic Party and to the political process. I also believe he would be both more personally receptive and beholden to the grass roots progressives who have helped him (or will help him) if he gets into the White House.

That's how I convinced myself to support Obama.

You have to use your own thought process and gut instincts about the two contenders. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in all of the individual differences you may have with either of them beyond the basic question: Which one most closely reflects your own goals and values, and which has the best chance of advancing them?



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Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Thanks Armstead.
I think I'll convince myself to support Obama the same way. Although neither "closely reflects my goals and values," which is sad.
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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. I know how you feel.
Obama was not my first, second, third, or fourth choice. But at this stage, you have to weigh the pros and cons of the choices you have left at the end of the day.

Think about why you are an activist and the issues that concern you most with this country. Then think about which candidate would be most apt to help you reach any of your goals (politically and, to some extent, personally).

As long as you consider the pros and cons of each candidate, whichever decision you make will be a good one.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-25-08 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
48. Yup
:popcorn:
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