This New Years Eve - Think of the Power of Dean/Clark

[dave29]

they would be unstoppable. They are the perfect balance for each other. Clark as VP can take over Cheney's role of "running" the war on terror. He is the perfect choice to make the war on terror actually work. Clark will also help put the South in play for the Dems - and will go a long way towards silencing the criticism from the right that Democrats are soft on defense. Clark can help us rightfully retake that helm. And he would gain valuable executive experience in time to become pres in '12 ;)

Dean as President would draw on his record of no-nonsense getting things done. He is an incrementalist who pissed off both the far right and far left if Vermont. Bue he balanced the budgets, was better on healthcare than anyone else (just ask Bill Clinton) - as well as education - and is the perfect choice to go up against the smear machine of George W. Bush (if Dean's teflon can survive these primaries, it can survive anything). Dean will likely pull in not only the base - but some fiscally conservative republicans (or non-neocons) who want someone who will restrain spending - as well as Democratic leaning Independents. I truly believe with more visibility, Deans popularity will continue to rise. As will Clarks.

Both organizations can raise gobs of money. Both organizations have grassroots support. Both are anti-Iraq War - but hawkish on the real war against terror. Both can and will take the President to task, unashamedly - and without fear - and never allow the GOP to frame the debate. They can heal the gap between the Clinton/Gore establishment/anti-establishment groups.

It's right there for the taking. The Dr. and the General verses the Oil Boys.

It's just too perfect, folks. Someone make them do it, it's driving me crazy.

[Lisa0825]

1. You put into words EXACTLY how I feel!

Excellent post!

GO DEAN!
GO DEMS!!!!

[judy]

2. I agree with the power of Dean/Clark

But I disagree that "war on terror" is anything but a scam.
You don't wage war against terrorism. Terrorism thrives on war.
Maybe they would start changing the policies that breed terrorists ?
Maybe that's what you mean, dave29...

[dave29]

3. thats exactly what I mean

and both have said as such.

Confront Saudi Arabia (in a non-military way) about what they are teaching their kids.
Both have good plans to wean us off of foreign oil.
Both would actually negotiate with North Korea.

Re-establish our ties that have been dissolved by Bush, and leverage them to help us out of the Iraq quagmire, and deal with other global hotspots.

Dean said he will send Clinton first thing to restart (rather than ignore) the Middle East Peace process.

With both of these men you get a mainstream, non-radical approach to National Defense.

And neither of them likes the Patriot Act.

[Capn Sunshine]

4. Sounds all right to me

I can just imagine how happy the DUers for Clark will be to join our crusade against politics as usual :loveya:

[AntiCoup2K4]

5. I've been preaching this ticket longer than most

...and I still think it's damn near bulletproof. I also think it's Karl Rove's worst nightmare, which just might be the reason why GOP operatives have flocked to this board recently in the disguise of "Clark supporters" to stir animosity between the Dean & Clark camps, to prevent them from (oh how shall I say this....) "raging against Rove's machine" ;)

[WiseMen]

6. Let's commit to reflecting on what 's Best for Country and Making it so!

Happy New Year Folks. And thanks for welcoming me to this board.

Be wise!

[dave29]

7. very good point

politics isn't everything. Happy New Year to you too :)

[Q3JR4]

8. I would be happy with that setup.

The question becomes, would they both go for it?

[dave29]

9. It takes two to tango

true. The sooner the better though - think of the damage we could be doing to Bushco with a united front.
Seems Dean has atleast dangled the VP slot. I guess it will be in Clark's campaign's hands to determine whether he wants the whole enchilda (and risk losing some of Dean's base in the process) - or, to become a united front.

Let the healing begin. dammit. I don't want to win. I want to win resoundingly.

[bain_sidhe]

10. Argh. Head Explodes, film at eleven.

Clark has already said he's not interested in being Dean's VP. If you want Clark's credentials, experience and ability, vote for Clark. You will not get them if you vote for Dean. Dean supporters keep spreading this "meme" to make people who think the country needs Clark think they can get him by voting for Dean. Not going to happen.

Or, as RobbedVoter would put it: Want Clark? Vote Clark.

[dave29]

11. We can agree to disagree

I don't just want Clark. I want Dean AND Clark. Then there are no questions on the resume front. All bases covered.


Governing experience: check
Medical Experience: check
Teaching Experience: check
Excellent governing record: check
Excellent military service, leadership and record: check
Similar policies from right to left: check
both unafraid of the GOP: check
both raising large sums of cash and drawing grassroots support: check

both brings character qualities that balance each other nicely - Dean's hard-nosed pragmatism, Clark's shrewdness and charm.

Do the math. You add these things up (and much more) and you have a stronger ticket to run against Bush. Seperately, they are not as strong.

As grassroots supporters of our candidates we should push these two towards each other, rather than away. I think as partisan supporters that by mending our own fences here, both Dean and Clark may see the wisdom of teaming up for the White House, hraling the party, and taking the country back by storm.

I'm tired of fighting each other. I wanna send Bush back to Crawford, dammit.

[carpe diem]

16. according to a post on the Clark blog...

...during conference call for last night's house parties, Clark was asked about the Dean campaigns' attempts to marginalize his candidacy by perpetuating the VP idea and he responded saying he "would not be Dean's Dick Cheney". I didn't hear it for myself, but a couple of others confirmed it.

see post #163 by PeterCool:

http://chat.forclark.com/story/2003/12/31/05342/259

I'll probably post this again tomorrow either in general discussion or my personal blog, but I wanted to share with you my experiences at a house party I went to tonight (actually last night since it's 3 in the morning!) for good ole General Clark.

It was a relatively small group (Staten Island is Republican territory), but it was kinda fun.

We got the opportunity to be part of a Clark conference call that lasted about half hour. Some highlights:

1 -- Someone asked Clark about the Dean attempt to make him out to be a VP candidate. Clark said "I'm not going to be Dean's Dick Cheney".

[dave29]

17. Nobody will say they would be VP

it just doesn't happen during the primaries.

Any scenario is still possible, but he certainly doesn't want people to think he'd team up with Dean I guess, which is sad to me, but what do I know anyway. To me it seems like a perfect combo.

Gotta do what you gotta do when you're running for Prez, I suppose.

[JI7]

29. i think Josh Marshall said that

marshall claimed dean was undermining clark's run for president by making it seem like he was running for vice president and was going to be dean's vp. and that quote "i'm not going to be dean's dick cheney", did that really happen ?

[Scott Lee]

45. Seeing that Josh Marshall had his arse handed to him recently

by none other than a participant here at DU, I wouldn't put a whole of canole into his views.

[Justice]

49. At Last Look Marshall's Arse Was Untouched- What Are You Talking About?

[Jerseycoa]

41. Staten Island, my birthplace.

I know you have your work cut out for you. :yourock:

[newyawker99]

44. Hi jg82567!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[stickdog]

23. We want Clark's military credentials, experience and ability

subordinate to an experienced governor with a record of positive, pragmatic and independent governance.

[Bombtrack]

12. about as unstoppable as Dukakis/Benston

. Clark/Graham might outlandslide Clinton in 92 and 96, but that's being overly optimistic. They would, however probably win. Dean/Anybody probably wouldn't

[sallyseven]

14. Listen up

Dukakas was a fine, intellegent, decent individual. It was my the third time in my life that I realized that the American People did not want honest government.
They love the scoundrels. That is why bush will win.

[stickdog]

24. I've got 15 million 4th quarter dollars that says you're wrong.

As usual.

[Jerseycoa]

13. Thanks

But we have our presidential candidate, :)

[dave29]

15. And so do I

why not morph them into one mega-candidate? ;)

[Skwmom]

39. Because anyone associated with Dean risks

having their reputation tarnished.

[Jerseycoa]

40. This is why

This goes for either candidate, Dean or Clark.

Two "outsiders" (I don't think either really are, but, you know...).

The ticket needs an insider, somebody with deep and wide congressional weight, who already knows where the bodies are buried, who already holds a pocketful of chits, who knows how to turn a policy paper into federal legislation, who brings to the job proven standing inside the beltway. In Dean's case, this person absolutely needs significant foreign policy and national security creds. In Clark's case, significant domestic policy creds. Governing a state or the NATO Alliance won't cut it.

The Republicans in the House and Senate won't make it easy on either of our guys. We need an Executive ticket that carries with it an entree into the Legislative branch. While the VP can't actively lobby the legislature and serves ceremonially as President of the Senate, having a legislative heavy in that office weights the Executive favorably.

Or so I think.

That's the main thing. But I don't see either of our candidates as second seat kind of guys, in any case. Dean and Clark, in particular, I don't see as temperamentally suited to each other. Bob Graham could be good for either and there are many other possibilities.

Speaking for my own candidate (as if I could), he came into this because he believes we need somebody like him at this point in our history to lead the nation. If he doesn't get the nomination, it throws out his reason for being in it in the first place. His personal goal is to make enough money to fund a global humanitarian foundation. That's been interrupted for the sake of the presidency, but without that, I see him getting back on his own road.

That said, I cannot see Clark saying no to the call to duty by an actual, sitting president. But that is not the case with a ticket.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

18. Absolutely!

This would be the stongest tickets, and you have articulated the reasons why.

[abburdlen]

19. Dean/Bush 41

Think about it!
Split the repub. vote, well known name, war experience, and just as frelling likely as getting Clark to fill the hole in your resume.

[dave29]

20. Sorry but any sane observer can see that

both Dean and Clark would compliment each other's experience in ways that would make for a stellar ticket. Dean atleast admits that while he knows a thing or two about foreign policy (he's been pretty dead-on about Iraq), he has an assumed gap in his resume there, so he intends to leave no doubts. That's leadership.

Clark supporters and Clark himself would be wise to see the same in their candidate who could use Dean's clear, tangible record on *non-military* economic and executive Governor's experience - implementing healthcare, education, balancing a budget, getting laws passed that may be unpopular, etc. Dean has a special pulpit to argue from as having very successful executive experience.

[bain_sidhe]

21. So how about Clark/Dean?

What would you say to that idea?

[dave29]

28. I would say

if Clark has the most support at the end of the primary process, I'm game for Dean as VP. I don't see that happening, what with sheer number of supporters, ability to fundraise - and strength of the grassroots organization, but I'll leave some room in there. Clark has a great resume, and a lot of charisma going for him. I like both these guys a lot. I think Dean is stronger for many reasons.

Dean has certainly proven to me that if he can go from an unknown asterisk (more people probably even knew of Clark from his CNN days before ever hearing of Howard Dean) - to paradigm shifter (everybody is trying to emulate his internet campaign and grassroots fundraising in some way now) - all while under a pretty much relentless assualt - he's got what it takes to hold the top job.

[Leilani]

32. Clark/Dean would make more sense

because the President has to be out front on foreign policy: traveling the globe, meeting foreign leaders, national security, Commander-in-Chief, getting our troops out of Iraq, going back to Afghanistan & getting Bin Laden.

On the other hand, domestic policy is set by President, but carried out at Cabinet & Department levels. Example: HHS. Dean could play an enormous role as VP; even more active than Al Gore.

Also, Clark runs a happy, positive campaign which appeals to more GE voters & has a good chance at several Southern states. A VP takes on more of the attack role, which Dean is well suited for. He can go after Bush & energize the base.

[stickdog]

22. I used to disagree strongly. But Clark and his campaign have impressed me

me enough lately that I'm giving this a second thought.

It might be the perfect ticket to unite the party, parry Repuke attacks, keep the campaign coffers overflowing, reengerize the entire party organization with real, local grassroots volunteerism and activism, attract new, Green AND swing voters, and crush the BFEE once and for all.

[Toucano]

25. When you say New Year's Eve

I think you mean Dick Clark! LOL!

We don't need another candidate. ;-)

[angee_is_mad]

26. I like Clark/Edwards better!!!

but I know that Dean needs Clark more than Clark needs Dean!!!!

And yes I am ready for the attacks by the deanies, but no hair pulling PLEEZE!!!!!!

[zulchzulu]

27. Ain't gonna happen, buddy

Clark will not be second fiddle to Dean. Dean has one big hole to fill and knows it.

Anytime I see a Dean supporter bring this up, it shows the transparent attempt to cover Dean's obvious weakness as a primetime candidate to run against Bush.

People don't vote for VP.

Really.

They don't.

[dogman]

30. Dream on

Never work! But thats just my opinion. I just hope whoever wins besides Kucinich puts him in charge of the FCC so ABC has to come to him.

[AngryAmish]

31. Nothing like the power of...

Ditka and mini-Ditka.

[TorchTheWitch]

33. it would be a disaster

It would never fly. Clark knows what he's talking about in saying it wouldn't work. The president is the Commander in Chief. That's his job. If he doesn't have the credentials himself to be an effective CinC then he'd have to have advisors. That's not a problem when the country is at peace and the rest of the world still likes us. It's a big problem now.

If Dean takes on anyone who is known for their foreign policy experience it would be like waiving a banner that said "HEY! MY FOREIGN POLICY SUCKS AND I NEED A PUPPET-MASTER!" This is why his saying he wanted someone big in foreign policy as his VP to plug up that canyon in his resume was the world's biggest gaffe. That would have been the one boo-boo that Rove & Co. were really doing the happy dance and guzzling champagne over.

If Dean gets the nomination and selects a general or anyone else who is known mostly for their foreign policy experience we lose... we'd lose so bad, we might as well hand Bush the tiara right now. If Dean needs foreign policy advisors, fine... keep them out of sight and talk like all that foreign policy wisdom comes out of his own head. There's a REASON why advisors are kept in the background... stick them in the public eye and it's an advertisement to the people that we have a puppet president.

Cheney's role in this administration is unpresidented. Why in the world do you think he tries to stay in the background? If he gets out front even the sheeple will know that Bush is a puppet. How many times have we complained what a puppet Bush is and bash him for it? And you want to do the same thing with Dean? That's just begging for it. Even Bush with the media in his pocket and Cheney hiding behind the curtain is still known as a puppet to those of us who have brains that function... a Dem doing that is dead meat. Good grief, look what they were capable of doing just on Clinton's wee-wee!

Dean's biggest problem as a presidential candidate is his lack of foreign policy experience. The ONLY way he could possibly win against Bush is if he keeps that hidden as much as he can from the voters exactly as Bush has done. He'll have to let the voters think that the foreign policy arguments against Bush come out of his own head. People vote on the PERSON running for president... not on whoever that person may have as advisors or on his staff. When was the last time you voted for ANYONE because of who their running mate was or because of who their advisors or staff were?

Look at it this way... say you were wrongfully accused of a crime and you need an attorney to save your ass. Are you going to be satisfied with the attorney who just passed the bar exam but promises you that he'll get good advice from people on how to handle your case, or would you want the attorney with the best experience that you can get that has an impressive track record? The choice is obvious. This is exactly why any attorney fresh off the bar does their damndest to keep their lack of experience from potential clients or they'd never get hired, and it's exactly why Dean would have to do the same... experience MATTERS to people whether they're shopping for an attorney or a president.

[Brian_Expat]

34. Oh, puh-LEASE.

People seem to act like we're running against Ike when it comes to Bush and foreign policy. We're running against DUBYA here, people!

And if Bush tries to argue that Dean is making a mistake by hiring FP experts to augment his team, all Dean has to do is ask why it was OK for Bush to do that when HE took office -- i.e. Rice and Rummy.

[TorchTheWitch]

37. and Dubya is the biggest threat we've ever faced

People seem to act like we're running against Ike when it comes to Bush and foreign policy. We're running against DUBYA here, people!

We're running against the most corrupt machine this country has ever known; a machine that has so far managed to fuck the country up more then any other administration since our beginnings and only in the brief time of three years... and Bush STILL polls higher then ANY Dem. You know BushCo is evil and their foreign policy is lousy at best, I know it, all of the rest of us here know it, but the whole problem is a MAJOR portion of the voters DON'T even after all the crap BushCo has done - THAT is the problem.

Perception is everything. As horrible as BushCo is, there is still a frightening enough number of people that STILL haven't figured that out... certainly enough to actually elect those bastards fairly this time. One thing that BushCo has gotten right is the ability to totally snow a major portion of the voters, and they've only been able to do that by creating the PERCEPTION that they're just dandy.

And if Bush tries to argue that Dean is making a mistake by hiring FP experts to augment his team, all Dean has to do is ask why it was OK for Bush to do that when HE took office -- i.e. Rice and Rummy.

First, it's not going to happen. They'll just pound it home that Dean has no foreign policy experience and would never be able to fight the "War On Terra" - and it will work. BushCo went into office with no foreign policy experience just as Clinton did because it didn't MATTER then. We were at peace. Other countries still liked us. We had more important issues then. Nobody was worried about war or terrorists then - it just wasn't an issue. They'll have more ads, they'll be nasty ads, they've got the media in their pocket, they'll have more money to spend on their smear campaign. Despite all the money Dean has been able to raise, it's NEVER going to top BushCo's funds.

Second, according to the high percentage of voters that believe BushCo is doing a good enough job on foreign policy to vote for him, the PERCEPTION is that our foreign policy is just fine even though we've got two wars going at once, more on the way, terrorist problems and the whole world hates us. All they have to do is continue the PERCEPTION. No matter how you slice it, Bush will have over three years of foreign policy experience over Dean by the time of the election, and that three plus years is at the HIGHEST level... that MATTERS to that giant percentage of people who have been snowed.

[dave29]

35. I'm sure you won't see it this way

but what Dean and his campaign have done is truly remarkable. Never mind his resume (which is quite good) - that he made himself the frontrunner so quickly from a much better known field is nothing less than miraculous. You can blame the media all you want - the fact is, his campaign style garnered attention - and he used it to his advantage. Leadership. That he took Al Gore's endorsement from Joe Lieberman and everybody else is remarkable, and a testament to his personal level of effort, attention and political skill. The resulting vitriol from other campaigns was a sad spectacle. That he has raised more money than anyboday else, setting new records, and all in small donations from hundreds of thousands of ordinary folks - rather than from corporate bundling - is not a bad sign for Dean - but more importantly - a very good sign for our Democracy and Democratic Party.

Leadership, again.

That his campaign grew from less than 10 people to over 550,000 in the space of a year - is better than any business could ever hope for in growth. And with each new member, his teflon grows stronger, and his warchest grows deeper. His perseverence and hard work (not to mention those of his supporters) won the endorsements of the AFSCME/SEIU - energizing his campaign even further. Others struggled to react to his success. Again, Dean showed leadership, swimming against the tide. The base has become energized. Others who were too disgusted by politics and politicians are coming back under our tent. Why? Because Dean's blunt message is one of enablement and equality, not appeasement. It's not just "anger", it's a much needed call for action, a reminder of our core principles as Democrats and Americans, and an impatience for lack of results in our Government.

Dean didn't have to stand up in front of the DNC and tell them they were doing a piss poor job - but someone had to, and he did. He gets a lot of buckshot to this day for that. No one likes to hear the truth. Say whatever you want about Dean's position on the war, he stuck to his guns, tying himself instead to a (God-forbid) much more sane foreign policy. The others are now caught explaining their positions save Dean and Kucinich. Even Clark still has to iron out the details of his position before the war. So for Dean to take an unpopular approach to the War in Iraq, and to go against the GOP, Rove and Bush in the height of their "glory", and also the Democrats who were allowing them to ram through their Neo-con agenda was leadership personified - and thank God we finally had some. He stood up in front of the party and told them to wake up. A lot of them listened. A lot of them were pissed off. Some felt threatened. A few have lashed out. But they all must know it had to be said.

He has already more than proven he has the skills to lead. All of the other candidates have been trying to follow it, since he emerged from the pack. His anger at Bush became all the rage, until the Republicans started calling Democrats "angry" - and most others then backed off (go figure), or also started calling Dean too "angry". All of the candidates are attempting in some way to mimic the Dean internet phenomenon - only Clark succeeding somewhat because of his original grassroots support. Even the GOP has a "blog" if you can call their's that. Meetups are now regularly attented by people for most if not all of the candidates. Democracy becomes participatory again. Whose campaign led the way?

Dean needs Clark? No. But it would be great for the party if they could work together and build on both of their assets. Dean's foreign policy does not suck. Nor is he saying that it does, by saying he needs to fill a "perceived" gap in his resume. He's being politically shrewd, and straightforward about it. VP choices are always political and geographical - that's just the way it works. Besides, his foreign policy vision is very much in line with Clark's - Dean's just been saying it publically for a lot longer - and if you look closely you will see just how adept Dean is at understanding both domestic and foreign policy and the nuances therein. Dean's no puppet, it's insulting to even suggest that he could be. He has certainly sought out council, even from General Clark, but so do all Presidents - we all know about the President's advisors, it's not like they are kept in a closet (unless they live in one like Karl Rove). Dean's instincts have hardly proven wrong - and you and I both know Bush has the worst foreign policy we could ever have dreamed up for our country. You don't need four stars next to your name to prove that.

Clark is a remarkable man, for sure, who has done great things for our country (and several others as well) when called on - just like he was for this campaign - lured away from business ventures and CNN, and drafted by a strong but smaller grassroots army within the Democratic Party.

Dean did not wait for the call. He called the base - and the rest of the American people - and told us we were back in the game again if he had anything to say about it. That was leadership. That's what people vote for. No one is pulling Dean's strings but Dean.

That's why Dean is winning. And that's why Dean should be President.

Clark's superior resume and specific experience make him a perfect fit to be on the frontlines in the fight against global terrorism. I strongly believe our party needs him for this task, but not necessarily the Presidency, yet.

[Jerseycoa]

42. You get the prize

For patience and fortitude, dave29.

:toast:

[dave29]

46. thanks

New Year's resolution in action

:toast:

[dansolo]

50. Then would Clark agree to be Sec. of Defense?

It is my understanding that the Secretary of Defense is the second highest civilian authority over the armed forces after the President. If Clark doesn't get the nomination, would he be willing to consider the position of Secretary of Defense in a Dean administration? I think this is a legitimate question. I believe that while a Dean/Clark ticket would be unbeatable, VP is not the most suitable position for Clark.

[robbedvoter]

36. You want Clark? Vote Clark! Enough already with this nonsense!

Not your security blanket ! Make a choice already. When you do, click my sig link. Happy New Year!

[dave29]

47. I want party unity

and a strong, balanced ticket!

Not looking for blankets :)

[TexasSissy]

38. VPs don't run wars, or do much of anything. I don't think Dean will agree

to be Clark's running mate. He's too much of a #1 kinda guy, same as Clark.

If Clark doesn't get nomination (but he will, of course), he'll run for Ark. gov, then run again for President, or alternatively, as running mate for Hillary. He's got his political future more or less mapped out.

Will Dean still have his job as governor? I don't know when that ends or what the status of that is.

[tsipple]

43. I Only Wish Clark Had Even Two Years in the Senate

If Dean gets the nomination, I would like him to have someone with experience serving in Congress. Getting the President's legislative agenda passed will be terribly important. Dean certainly is able to work with legislatures, but I'd still like a current or former senator to help out.

But he's an excellent choice, and I'd certainly be very happy with a Dean/Clark ticket based on what I know at this point.

[in_cog_ni_to]

48. Will never happen.

Give it up. Clark has said over and over and over and over....HE WILL NOT BE HOWARD DEAN'S VP. I don't know how many more times he can say it. Clark is a leader. There's no way he will be Dean's VP...ain't gonna happen. If ANYONE wants Clark on the ticket, they had better vote for him.

[robbedvoter]

51. OK, the "power" thingy creeps me out. Read my lips: we didn't draft

a security blanket for you. if you feel your candidate is lacking, pick another. Clark is second to none. He will win.
You want Clark, vote Clark.