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No, Chelsea. Clairvoyance had nothing to do with it.

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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:37 PM
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No, Chelsea. Clairvoyance had nothing to do with it.
February 16, 2008


The question was one she had heard before, but this time it was asked in downright hostile terms.

“Has your mother shown any remorse for the fact that her vote cost Iraqis a million of their lives?” a student asked Chelsea Clinton on Monday at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.

Ms. Clinton replied: “She cast a vote based on the best available evidence. Perhaps you had clairvoyance then, and that’s extraordinary.”

.....




With all due respect, Ms. Clinton, were these people in 2002 clairvoyant as well? We already know they were extraordinary.






What about these people?







And these?





They, and many of us knew, before this invasion, that it was a lie and it was wrong.




And what about this man? He knew.







And he knew because he was one of only a few people in Congress who read the entire 2002 National Intelligence Estimate (NIE).


Your mother was not one of them. She would only steadfastly admit to having been 'briefed on it'.
Because of that decision, she did not have all of the facts. She based her decision to vote for the Iraq War Resolution only on Bush's carefully concocted lies.



Hillary’s War

By JEFF GERTH and DON VAN NATTA Jr.
Published: May 29, 2007


On a Thursday afternoon in early May, Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton rose before a nearly empty Senate chamber and proposed that Congress undo one of the most significant acts in its recent history: the authorization of the Iraq war. In remarks lasting just two minutes, she spoke bluntly: The “authorization to use force has run its course, and it is time to reverse the failed policies of President Bush and to end this war as soon as possible.” She added, “If the president will not bring himself to accept reality, it is time for Congress to bring reality to him.”

This was Clinton’s latest and boldest attempt to distance herself from her own vote for the Iraq war in October 2002 — a vote she has described as “probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make.”

.....

As she had always done, Clinton prepared for her decision on the war vote by doing her homework, or what she has called her “due diligence.” This included, she said, attending classified briefings on Capitol Hill concerning intelligence on Iraq. Indeed, Clinton was far more prescient than many of her Senate colleagues about the potential difficulty of rebuilding the country. In a number of private meetings with top Bush officials, according to people in the room, Clinton asked pointed and skeptical questions about how the administration planned to deal with the inevitable challenges of governing Iraq after the invasion.

But it’s not clear that she was equally diligent when it came to the justifications for the war itself. So far, she has not discussed publicly whether she ever read the complete classified version of the National Intelligence Estimate, the most comprehensive judgment of the intelligence community about Iraq’s W.M.D., which was made available to all 100 senators. The 90-page report was delivered to Congress on Oct. 1, 2002, just 10 days before the Senate vote. An abridged summary was made public by the Bush administration, but it painted a less subtle picture of Iraq’s weapons program than the full classified report. To get a complete picture would require reading the entire document, which, according to a version of the report made public in 2004, contained numerous caveats and dissents on Iraq’s weapons and capacities.

According to Senate aides, because Clinton was not yet on the Armed Services Committee, she did not have anyone working for her with the security clearances needed to read the entire N.I.E. and the other highly classified reports that pertained to Iraq.

She could have done the reading herself. Senators were able to access the N.I.E. at two secure locations in the Capitol complex. Nonetheless, only six senators personally read the report, according to a 2005 television interview with Senator Jay Rockefeller, Democrat of West Virginia and then the vice chairman of the intelligence panel. Earlier this year, on the presidential campaign trail in New Hampshire, Clinton was confronted by a woman who had traveled from New York to ask her if she had read the intelligence report. According to Eloise Harper of ABC News, Clinton responded that she had been briefed on it.

“Did you read it?” the woman screamed.

Clinton replied that she had been briefed, though she did not say by whom.

The question of whether Clinton took the time to read the N.I.E. report is critically important. Indeed, one of Clinton’s Democratic colleagues, Bob Graham, the Florida senator who was then the chairman of the intelligence committee, said he voted against the resolution on the war, in part, because he had read the complete N.I.E. report. Graham said he found that it did not persuade him that Iraq possessed W.M.D. As a result, he listened to Bush’s claims more skeptically. “I was able to apply caveat emptor,” Graham, who has since left the Senate, observed in 2005. He added regretfully, “Most of my colleagues could not.”

On Tuesday, Oct. 8, 2002, Senate Democrats, including Clinton, held a caucus over lunch on the second floor of the Capitol. There, Graham says he “forcefully” urged his colleagues to read the complete 90-page N.I.E. before casting such a monumental vote.

.....




We and the Iraqis have suffered enormously since that October, 2002 vote. We had the right to expect that all of our elected leaders would leave no stone unturned in the search for the truth about the wisdom of invading Iraq and why George W. Bush was so hell-bent on charging into a country that was not responsible for attacking us on September 11, 2001, with murder on his mind.


Senator Graham and only a few others took the time to investigate this NIE. And when he read the evidence in the NIE, he voted against Bush's invasion.


Where was Senator Clinton?



.....

In the early morning hours of Oct. 11, 2002, the Senate voted, 77 to 23, to authorize the Bush administration’s war against Iraq. The result was shaped in part by the coming midterm elections. Some of the senators up for re-election did not want to appear weak on an issue that the administration had skillfully tied to America’s “war on terror.” Clinton, having been elected two years earlier, had no such immediate worries. Even so, she positioned herself carefully.

For all the scrutiny of Clinton’s vote, an important moment has been lost. It came several hours earlier, on Oct. 10, 2002, the same day Clinton spoke about why she would support the Iraq-war authorization. In her remarks on the Senate floor, she stressed the need for diplomacy with Iraq on the part of the Bush administration and insisted she wasn’t voting for “any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for unilateralism.” Yet just a few hours after her speech, Clinton voted against an amendment to the war resolution that would have required the diplomatic emphasis that Clinton had gone on record as supporting — and that she now says she had favored all along.

The long-overlooked vote was on an amendment introduced by Carl Levin and several other Senate Democrats who hoped to rein in President Bush by requiring a two-step process before Congress would actually authorize the use of force. Senators knew full well the wide latitude that they were handing to Bush, which is why some tried to put the brakes on the march to war. The amendment called, first, for the U.N. to pass a new resolution explicitly approving the use of force against Iraq. It also required the president to return to Congress if his U.N. efforts failed and, in Senator Levin’s words, “urge us to authorize a going-it-alone, unilateral resolution.” That resolution would allow the president to wage war as a last option.

Clinton has never publicly explained her vote against the Levin amendment or said why she stayed on the sidelines as 11 other senators debated it for 95 minutes that day. In the end, she joined the significant majority of 75 senators who voted against Levin’s proposal. (A similar measure in the House also lost, though it gained the backing of 155 members.) The 75 senators were largely those who voted later that night in favor of the war authorization. Only four senators — Feinstein, Rockefeller, Senator Tom Harkin of Iowa and Senator Herb Kohl of Wisconsin — voted yes on Levin’s resolution and then voted yes on Bush’s war authorization. If Clinton had done that, she subsequently could have far more persuasively argued, perhaps, that she had supported a multilateral diplomatic approach.

.....





So, Ms. Chelsea Clinton, with all due respect, "clairvoyance" had nothing to do with it.

Due diligence did.


And precious few of our leaders practiced it, when so many lives depended on it.













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   Replies to this thread
   Chelsea rox  Prefer   Feb-16-08 03:39 PM   #1 
   Maybe we should send this to Chelsea and get a patronizing congrats from her in response  TheDonkey   Feb-16-08 03:40 PM   #2 
   Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Feb-16-08 07:22 PM   #100 
   What a snippy remark from Chelsea. The apple didn't fall far. nt  babylonsister   Feb-16-08 03:41 PM   #3 
   Same thoughts exactly...  Hepburn   Feb-16-08 03:54 PM   #28 
   Huh?  springhill   Feb-16-08 09:24 PM   #126 
   If she had simply said "yes, innocent people dying troubles her"  Clovis Sangrail   Feb-16-08 09:32 PM   #131 
   exactly  Carolina   Feb-17-08 08:05 AM   #157 
   I DON'T THINK THAT  muyojoe   Feb-17-08 08:36 AM   #161 
      you've got to be kidding  Clovis Sangrail   Feb-17-08 08:58 AM   #162 
         I'M TROUBLED BY WHATS GOING ON THERE  muyojoe   Feb-17-08 09:20 AM   #164 
            no... he wasn't asked because he didn't vote on the arms sale  Clovis Sangrail   Feb-17-08 09:52 AM   #170 
               NO CHELSEA DIDN'T  muyojoe   Feb-17-08 10:02 AM   #171 
                  she wasn't asked about how SHE felt because SHE didn't vote on it  Clovis Sangrail   Feb-17-08 10:11 AM   #172 
                  IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACTS  muyojoe   Feb-17-08 10:23 AM   #175 
                     bullshit  Clovis Sangrail   Feb-17-08 04:36 PM   #186 
                  In what capacity  marekjed   Feb-17-08 10:21 AM   #174 
   Would it have been too much to ask...  J R   Feb-17-08 12:15 AM   #135 
   Oh for pete's sake.............  springhill   Feb-17-08 02:23 AM   #151 
   "Perhaps you had clairvoyance then, and that’s extraordinary."  krkaufman   Feb-17-08 01:10 AM   #143 
   .  CorpGovActivist   Feb-21-08 03:41 AM   #196 
   Well yes, this is what I would expect  marekjed   Feb-17-08 10:18 AM   #173 
   Hillary Clinton deserves plenty of criticism for her votes  Martin Eden   Feb-17-08 10:49 AM   #176 
      If campaign coin pays for her appearances...  CorpGovActivist   Feb-18-08 10:54 PM   #191 
   Exactly . . . so true . . .  defendandprotect   Feb-17-08 02:36 AM   #153 
   maybe she can cry next  FARAFIELD   Feb-16-08 07:07 PM   #96 
   I doubt her opinion is informed  BadgerKid   Feb-16-08 08:46 PM   #120 
   Nooooo...  misanthrope   Feb-17-08 01:06 AM   #141 
   then maybe she should  Carolina   Feb-17-08 08:10 AM   #158 
   political entitlement is in the genes I guess  ErnestoG   Feb-17-08 01:13 AM   #146 
   .  CorpGovActivist   Feb-17-08 12:56 PM   #182 
   Barack himself has said he didn't know what he would do  DemGa   Feb-16-08 03:41 PM   #4 
   I bet he would have read the report  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-16-08 03:49 PM   #17 
   I have no idea what he would have done  DemGa   Feb-16-08 03:51 PM   #23 
   Judging from his votes since he's actually been in the Senate  nonconformist   Feb-16-08 05:56 PM   #81 
   You must be kidding...  ellisonz   Feb-17-08 07:07 AM   #155 
      Not at all. nt  nonconformist   Feb-17-08 03:16 PM   #185 
   Of course he would have. He hasnt been close to PNAC like...you know....  ErnestoG   Feb-16-08 09:27 PM   #128 
   He said that on Meet the Press when he didn't want to hurt  Skwmom   Feb-16-08 03:52 PM   #24 
   Amazing how such a wonk, someone who always does their  Skwmom   Feb-16-08 03:56 PM   #31 
   and in 2006. What is the excuse for that?  jackson_dem   Feb-17-08 12:55 AM   #138 
   "What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made."  sandnsea   Feb-16-08 03:55 PM   #29 
   Not the vantage point of a Senator who had to decide  DemGa   Feb-16-08 04:12 PM   #44 
      He did get it right  sandnsea   Feb-16-08 06:49 PM   #94 
   He still voiced a view that was unpopular at the time because it was the right thing to do.  LordJFT   Feb-16-08 07:13 PM   #97 
   Healthcare '93...nt  DemGa   Feb-16-08 07:19 PM   #98 
      actually I believe that had popular support, it was in congress that it failed  LordJFT   Feb-16-08 07:33 PM   #104 
      delete-dupe  LordJFT   Feb-16-08 07:33 PM   #105 
   So your candidate stands as the only one with an IWR Yes vote.  ErnestoG   Feb-16-08 09:26 PM   #127 
   I think he would have voted PRESENT  Skittles   Feb-16-08 09:30 PM   #130 
   better than Hillary's "yes" isnt it  ErnestoG   Feb-17-08 01:10 AM   #144 
   Unfortunately for your argument you don't know what he WOULD have done  Gonnabuymeagun   Feb-17-08 12:29 PM   #181 
   Well Said!  Possumpoint   Feb-16-08 03:41 PM   #5 
   Very good post.  countingbluecars   Feb-16-08 03:41 PM   #6 
   .  CorpGovActivist   Feb-18-08 10:11 PM   #189 
   Pretty ignorant and arrogant comment on her part.  Political Heretic   Feb-16-08 03:44 PM   #7 
   well, what would you say if your mother made that vote  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-16-08 03:50 PM   #19 
   .  CorpGovActivist   Feb-18-08 11:36 PM   #193 
   Obamanation is now savaging Chelsea Clinton?! Am I really seeing this happen?  Beausoir   Feb-16-08 03:45 PM   #8 
   This was not a "savaging" of Chelsea Clinton  Jim Lane   Feb-16-08 03:58 PM   #34 
   True---by demeaning is not good at all. take a peep at some of these hateful Obamacaper comments!  rodeodance   Feb-17-08 01:46 AM   # 
   Oh yeah.... "savaging." Savaging to disagree, or point out contradictions.  Political Heretic   Feb-16-08 03:58 PM   #35 
   If Mrs Obama had made a similar statement would you not feel it was a rude comment?  OhioBlues   Feb-16-08 04:02 PM   #41 
   Reminds me of the horrible jokes McCain used to make about  Jamastiene   Feb-16-08 04:38 PM   #62 
   When?  Matteon   Feb-16-08 06:01 PM   #85 
   Excuse me?  Elrond HubbardDU Moderator   Feb-16-08 07:43 PM   #109 
   Obama is "truly despicable"?  Steve_DeShazer   Feb-16-08 10:58 PM   #134 
   If Hillary can forgive McCain for the puerile joke he made about Chelsea  arewenotdemo   Feb-17-08 02:27 AM   #152 
   How is it 'savaging' to call her to carpet for an asinine remark?  Elrond HubbardDU Moderator   Feb-16-08 07:42 PM   #108 
   No. They are giving death threats to Tavis Smiley for daring to criticize St. Obama  jackson_dem   Feb-17-08 12:56 AM   #139 
   I would call it...  misanthrope   Feb-17-08 01:09 AM   #142 
   "hoi" means "the"  dmesg   Feb-17-08 01:50 AM   #149 
      Then you're also aware...  misanthrope   Feb-17-08 02:08 AM   #150 
   Yeah! Hands off the white women!  ellisonz   Feb-17-08 07:08 AM   #156 
   spare me  Carolina   Feb-17-08 08:18 AM   #159 
   Ms. Clinton stepped up to the big person's microphone. Not a stellar performance...  CorpGovActivist   Feb-18-08 11:56 PM   #194 
   That was a very defensive answer.  OhioBlues   Feb-16-08 03:45 PM   #9 
   Excellent thread. And, my opinion of Chelsea has gone down quite a bit. How snotty.  Diane R   Feb-16-08 03:46 PM   #10 
   I have a feeling she really doesn't want to do this schtick for her parents.  Whisp   Feb-16-08 04:12 PM   #46 
   I agree with you. She's a reluctant warrior. I'm sure she can't wait to get back to her own life.  Diane R   Feb-16-08 05:29 PM   #77 
      Pure speculation on your part. How dare you question her motives.  rodeodance   Feb-17-08 01:22 AM   #147 
   What do you expect? Look at her background**nm  misanthrope   Feb-17-08 01:10 AM   #145 
   .  CorpGovActivist   Feb-18-08 11:11 PM   #192 
   good job chelsea..  ExtraGriz   Feb-16-08 03:47 PM   #11 
   One hoping to garner votes  Madam Mossfern   Feb-16-08 04:00 PM   #38 
   No. It was a legitimate question.  Hissyspit   Feb-16-08 04:33 PM   #60 
   Slapped her down?  Usrename   Feb-16-08 08:49 PM   #122 
   Chelsea sounds so out of touch....  tokenlib   Feb-16-08 03:47 PM   #12 
   Chelsea may be out of touch with the anti-war movement.  arewenotdemo   Feb-16-08 05:54 PM   #79 
   Paris, Rome, London, San Francisco, New York, DC... everywhere  Usrename   Feb-16-08 08:53 PM   #123 
   Let the military families eat cake, she sniffed.  CorpGovActivist   Feb-19-08 02:15 AM   #195 
   Quit picking on Hillary, she twusted Georgie Bush, and wules don't appwy to her either  WillYourVoteBCounted   Feb-16-08 03:48 PM   #13 
   LOL !!! - You Bad !!!  WillyT   Feb-16-08 03:50 PM   #18 
   ROFL!!  latebloomer   Feb-16-08 04:42 PM   #65 
   great post pls provide a link back to the original article so  grantcart   Feb-16-08 03:48 PM   #14 
   The link is within the boxed quote's text. n/t  seafan   Feb-16-08 03:56 PM   #32 
   You got it!  lisainmilo   Feb-17-08 12:35 AM   #137 
   This is one of those posts that will still be valuable 2 years from now.. thank you So much. One for  K Gardner   Feb-16-08 03:48 PM   #15 
   Yes, the questioner should have followed-up asking whether the full Iraq NIE ...  krkaufman   Feb-16-08 03:49 PM   #16 
   She Didn't Need To Read It...  JimGinPA   Feb-16-08 03:54 PM   #27 
      Exactly. Somehow she was "briefed" by people who weren't authorized ...  krkaufman   Feb-17-08 12:23 AM   #136 
   Another Clinton demonstrates the common touch. n/t  CorpGovActivist   Feb-16-08 03:51 PM   #20 
   Touche.  arewenotdemo   Feb-16-08 05:57 PM   #82 
   Outstanding.  H2O Man   Feb-16-08 03:51 PM   #21 
   Oh. Little Miss "Pure" can get snippy, huh? If she can dish it, I hope  Kahuna   Feb-16-08 03:51 PM   #22 
   She's a Clinton, all right.  sfexpat2000   Feb-16-08 03:52 PM   #25 
   In the meantime Obama votes to continue funding the war  Seeker30   Feb-16-08 03:52 PM   #26 
   No one has clean hands on this...  tokenlib   Feb-16-08 03:58 PM   #36 
   Someone ought to send this to Chelsea with dates...  fortyfeetunder   Feb-16-08 03:55 PM   #30 
   I think I stepped off into Free Republik  DemGa   Feb-16-08 03:57 PM   #33 
   You said it. They should change the name to  DemBones DemBones   Feb-16-08 03:59 PM   #37 
   I don't think...I know  Seeker30   Feb-16-08 04:06 PM   #42 
   Then, you would be wrong. n/t  sfexpat2000   Feb-16-08 04:14 PM   #50 
   Really? How many freepers marched ahead of the war?  sfexpat2000   Feb-16-08 04:12 PM   #45 
   Well, I would venture not many of them marched against the war at all.  Major Hogwash   Feb-16-08 07:27 PM   #102 
   well done.  Elrond HubbardDU Moderator   Feb-16-08 07:47 PM   #111 
   "She was setting up this run and her image was more important than human life."  DemGa   Feb-16-08 08:40 PM   #118 
   Oh, please. We all saw this run coming before she ran in New York.  sfexpat2000   Feb-16-08 09:05 PM   #124 
   If ANYONE sitting in the Senate should have know the Iraq was was bullshit, it would have been HRC.  Raster   Feb-16-08 10:28 PM   #133 
   "she's reaping what she sowed with that political calculation"  Carolina   Feb-17-08 08:30 AM   #160 
   more of the 'victim' bullshit.  Elrond HubbardDU Moderator   Feb-16-08 07:47 PM   #110 
   Exactly....  ClintonTyree   Feb-17-08 06:16 AM   #154 
   Excellent post. Well written!  Yael   Feb-16-08 04:01 PM   #39 
   There is a sickness in the Clinton family.  dcindian   Feb-16-08 04:01 PM   #40 
   Chelsea is the Clinton's perfect faux-victimization tool  LostInAnomie   Feb-16-08 04:08 PM   #43 
   Sounds to me like Chelsea has picked up a bit of her mother's charm. Lovely.  K Gardner   Feb-16-08 04:14 PM   #48 
   22 Democratic Senators and Barack Obama didn't cave on IWR.  TexasObserver   Feb-16-08 04:12 PM   #47 
   He also didn't vote against Joint Resolution (H.J.Res. 114 ) either. Seems he wasn't even there.  Jamastiene   Feb-16-08 04:48 PM   #67 
   It was the largest protest ever, in the entire history of the world.  lwfern   Feb-16-08 04:14 PM   #49 
   And it hardly made a peep in U.S. media coverage.  Hissyspit   Feb-16-08 04:30 PM   #57 
   That was an honest question.  StarryNite   Feb-16-08 04:17 PM   #51 
   I joined many protests in 2003, and support Hillary now because she will be an infinitely better  _Wayne_   Feb-16-08 04:17 PM   #52 
   You have an excellent point, but I wonder  paperbag_ princess   Feb-16-08 04:18 PM   #53 
   I don't know but maybe you can start by  dcindian   Feb-16-08 04:28 PM   #56 
      not quite sure what you are trying to say  paperbag_ princess   Feb-16-08 04:47 PM   #66 
         It is because she is attacking  dcindian   Feb-16-08 04:54 PM   #70 
         I haven't forgiven Kerry or Edwards on their IWR vote  dansolo   Feb-16-08 05:14 PM   #76 
            Good for you. Seriously.  Ravy   Feb-16-08 06:46 PM   #92 
            Me, too  Carolina   Feb-17-08 09:02 AM   #163 
   The Obamanation will do anything to win including attacking Chelsea..  yadayadayada   Feb-16-08 04:21 PM   #54 
   If she goes and patronizes the literally millions of people who were vocally  slick8790   Feb-16-08 04:26 PM   #55 
   Calling her ass out isn't attacking. She's a grown woman now  NJObamaWoman   Feb-16-08 04:32 PM   #59 
   I've never said a bad word about Chelsea, and never tolerated it, but now ...  TexasObserver   Feb-16-08 04:59 PM   #71 
   i`m waiting for rezko too...  madrchsod   Feb-16-08 05:07 PM   #74 
   it's called 'criticism'...the OP was pretty gentle.  Elrond HubbardDU Moderator   Feb-16-08 07:49 PM   #112 
   The OP "smacked her down"?. The verbiage here gets  BleedingHeartPatriot   Feb-17-08 11:33 AM   #178 
   Not for Obama  ayeshahaqqiqa   Feb-17-08 11:15 AM   #177 
   Ya Know... Those Pictures Bring Up An Interesting Question...  WillyT   Feb-16-08 04:32 PM   #58 
   Nope. Marched in 02 and 03. n/t  Tatiana   Feb-16-08 04:41 PM   #63 
   I marched,  ecdab   Feb-16-08 09:39 PM   #132 
   I marched ... I knew Bushco were fucking liars ... I'm voting Obama.  Oregonian   Feb-17-08 01:46 AM   #148 
   Count me in  Carolina   Feb-17-08 09:25 AM   #165 
   Even my father who voted for shrub knew the war was bogus.  diane in sf   Feb-16-08 04:35 PM   #61 
   So did my Repug family/coworkers. I remember. And I knew it was BS too  Mystery2Me   Feb-17-08 12:15 PM   #180 
   So if Obama, who predicted correctly exactly what would happen happened, isn't HE clairvoyant and  jenmito   Feb-16-08 04:41 PM   #64 
   You obviously don't see ...  BearSquirrel2   Feb-17-08 03:13 PM   #184 
   Before the war started, people from Code Pink  latebloomer   Feb-16-08 04:50 PM   #68 
   Code Pink, 22 US Democratic Senators, Barack Obama, and most progressives KNEW  TexasObserver   Feb-16-08 05:10 PM   #75 
   There is a real distinction between a YES vote on the IWR and attacking Iraq.  Ravy   Feb-16-08 04:52 PM   #69 
   No... We Just See Through The Double-Talk !!!  WillyT   Feb-16-08 05:01 PM   #72 
   Baloney.  tabasco   Feb-16-08 09:28 PM   #129 
   BULLSHIT!!  Carolina   Feb-17-08 09:30 AM   #166 
   I call bullshit. I was in the Marines when it passed  dmesg   Feb-17-08 11:46 AM   #179 
   i guess she missed the millions across the planet  madrchsod   Feb-16-08 05:01 PM   #73 
   Them's some big-assed focus groups there  BeyondGeography   Feb-16-08 05:47 PM   #78 
   Foc US?! No, Foc U, Mister Bush!!  TexasObserver   Feb-16-08 05:55 PM   #80 
   .  CorpGovActivist   Feb-18-08 10:39 PM   #190 
   And what did Obama do?  OzarkDem   Feb-16-08 05:59 PM   #83 
   can't defend team hillary  Carolina   Feb-17-08 09:38 AM   #167 
   K&R  New Dawn   Feb-16-08 05:59 PM   #84 
   Exactly  ekwhite   Feb-16-08 06:03 PM   #86 
   Great answer, Chelsea. Slap that bitch.  Gman   Feb-16-08 06:07 PM   #87 
   It's sexist to call Hillary a b*tch, but it isn't sexist to call one of her detractors one? N/T  ekwhite   Feb-16-08 06:30 PM   #89 
   WTF are you talking about?  Gman   Feb-16-08 06:36 PM   #90 
      I beg to differ  ekwhite   Feb-17-08 01:04 AM   #140 
         Sorry, but I'm sick and tired of it as should everyone else  Gman   Feb-17-08 06:10 PM   #187 
   that's right take the low road  Carolina   Feb-17-08 09:42 AM   #168 
      the questioner IS a bitch  Gman   Feb-17-08 06:13 PM   #188 
   I know we were ALL Clairvoyant!!  zidzi   Feb-16-08 06:22 PM   #88 
   Website as viral gimmick?  stratomagi   Feb-16-08 06:37 PM   #91 
   Chelsea is just like her Mom...  ingac70   Feb-16-08 06:48 PM   #93 
   Tens of millions marched on the Streets opposing the Iraq war before it started.  Tom Joad   Feb-16-08 06:58 PM   #95 
   Clairvoyance? No, simple digestion of the facts and common decency, Chelsea  polpilot   Feb-16-08 07:20 PM   #99 
   Good to know Chelsea has the Clinton "Arrogance" trait.  MessiahRp   Feb-16-08 07:23 PM   #101 
   Deleted message  Name removed   Feb-16-08 07:30 PM   #103 
   Deleted message  Name removed   Feb-16-08 09:09 PM   #125 
   Here's a raging K&R.  David Zephyr   Feb-16-08 07:34 PM   #106 
   Hillary Clinton made the correct vote on the IWR  Tactical Progressive   Feb-16-08 07:39 PM   #107 
   Care to back up your horrible accusation with some facts?  Elrond HubbardDU Moderator   Feb-16-08 08:34 PM   #116 
   WTF  Carolina   Feb-17-08 09:46 AM   #169 
   they cheated, Gore lost, my fault theres a war. Am I understanding you correctly.  bagrman   Feb-17-08 01:37 PM   #183 
   Sickening. It didn't take mystical powers to realize that SH had nothing to do with 9/11.  Progs Rock   Feb-16-08 07:58 PM   #113 
   Another disingenuous Clinton. Surprise, surprise.  stillrockin   Feb-16-08 08:02 PM   #114 
   So sad that the Clintons have come to this  psychopomp   Feb-16-08 08:32 PM   #115 
   How insulting!  Herdin_Cats   Feb-16-08 08:39 PM   #117 
   That has been my argument all along...how come I am smarter  OwnedByFerrets   Feb-16-08 08:48 PM   #121 
   What a smartass remark from Chelsea Clinton!  redacted   Feb-16-08 08:42 PM   #119 
 
Prefer (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Chelsea rox
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 03:42 PM by Prefer


"Hi Everyone. I am working to help my mother help us all. I am dedicated to her campaign because I know and believe in her."
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TheDonkey (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. Maybe we should send this to Chelsea and get a patronizing congrats from her in response
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Name removed (0 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
100. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. What a snippy remark from Chelsea. The apple didn't fall far. nt
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Hepburn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Donate to DU! Sat Feb-16-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
28. Same thoughts exactly...
...it's like how does anyone DARE question what the queen...er...Hillary has done!
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springhill (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #28
126. Huh?
What did you expect her to say? The question to her was way over the top the way it was put to her, after all, this is her mom you're talking about. Did you expect her to say that her mom's actions had killed millions of Iraqi's, regardless of how you may view it.

And of course now, the trashing begins of anyone Clinton, even Chelsea. Am I surprised? Absolutely not.
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Clovis Sangrail (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #126
131. If she had simply said "yes, innocent people dying troubles her"
there would have been no issue.
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Carolina (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #131
157. exactly
and if she opts to be out on the campaign trail, speaking on behalf of HRC, then she will get questioned about this, so she better get used to it.

Being snarky about clairvoyance does not help her mother's case. Everyone knows that hindsight is 20/20 but it didn't take hindsight to see that Iraq was never an imminent threat.
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muyojoe (276 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #131
161. I DON'T THINK THAT
Is something she could have said on her mom's behalf. It was a ridiculous question to ask her daughter. You want to ask Hillary herself, that's fair, this is a little too much.
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Clovis Sangrail (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #161
162. you've got to be kidding
I know LOTS of people well enough to say "innocent people dying troubles him/her"
It's not like taking a guess at what they say in their prayers.

How many people do YOU count as friends that aren't troubled by innocent people dying???
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muyojoe (276 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #162
164. I'M TROUBLED BY WHATS GOING ON THERE
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 09:25 AM by muyojoe
Our difference is who to ask and hold accountable about it. Someone who has never held office, or someone who has.

How many times did they ask Reagan's son about those arms sales? None. Why, because he had nothing to do with it! This is simpler than you make it, the question is legit (in fact good) the target was not.

Besides did you see me laughing?
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Clovis Sangrail (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #164
170. no... he wasn't asked because he didn't vote on the arms sale
pretty simple really

she did vote on issue at hand and she's running for president
Reagan's son did neither

as for laughing...
if you were even slightly objective you'd see how silly it is to think it 'out of line' for Chelsea to have simply said "innocent people dying troubles her".
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muyojoe (276 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #170
171. NO CHELSEA DIDN'T
That is who they asked. I said it is legitimate and right to ask Hillary, but not Chelsea. I know they have the same last name, but they should be easy to keep straight.
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Clovis Sangrail (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #171
172. she wasn't asked about how SHE felt because SHE didn't vote on it
she was asked about how her MOTHER felt, who DID vote on it.
Chelsea is campaigning for her mother

As to whether she *could answer the question, I already addressed that.
The answer is YES.
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muyojoe (276 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #172
175. IT DOESN'T CHANGE THE FACTS
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 10:51 AM by muyojoe
Chelsea didn't vote on it, and asking how someone else, even if you know them, feels about it, is just cheap. I can't tell you how my wife feels about something unless I've asked, and I'm not even sure of that unless I've asked recently. I'm sure they are not sitting around the fire at night discussing senate votes. Do I think that the campaign staff briefed her on how to respond? Sure they did. It doesn't mean that she knows how her mom felt. If you want to misconstrue the question to be about how Chelsea feels about how her mom voted, then that is a legitimate but cheap shot.

They should ask Hillary. I'm sure Chelsea has no psychic link or clairvoyance about her mothers feelings. Get over it, and get someone to ask the right person.

This is so stupid. I can't even believe I'm defending myself on this. If they had asked Mrs. Obama how her husband felt about something, I'd be defending her. What kind of journalism is this anyway? If you can't find who you should ask, then ask someone else how they think that person "feels" about it! Ask yourself, would Helen Thomas ask Hillary's daughter how her mother felt about it? At worst she might ask if she knew how her mother felt about it, but I think it would be beneath her.

I believe your position is untenable no matter the topic. Your basing your position on the topic, not the logic of the question
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Clovis Sangrail (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #175
186. bullshit
I can tell you, without hestitation, that innocent people dying troubles my wife.
If I didn't know something that basic about her personality she wouldn't be my wife.
If you don't know your wife well enough to know if she would be troubled by innocent people dying,
one of you is bound to start re-evaluating that relationship in the not so distant future.

Why don't you go ask your wife?
Say: "honey, do you find it troubling when innocent people die?"
See if you don't get slapped for not knowing the answer.

Chelsea wasn't asked to read her mothers mind, but to confirm her mother's sympathy towards others.
She screwed up by being smary rather than just answering with a very simple phrase like "innocent people dying troubles her"

That you are defending her response says way more about you than Chelsea or Hillary.
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moodforaday (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #171
174. In what capacity
In what capacity was Chelsea making her public appearance? If she's campaigning for mom, she needs to answer questions on mom's behalf. Otherwise she should go back to whatever private life she normally leads and stop appearing in public.
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J R (63 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #126
135. Would it have been too much to ask...
...for Chelsea Clinton to show a bit of humility, shame or compassion at that moment when presented with such a stunningly harsh fact?? A million Iraqis, dead! How could she POSSIBLY defend Hillary Clinton's Iraq War vote??? What a shallow, rude, short-sighted person Chelsea's grown up to be; I'm disappointed.
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springhill (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #135
151. Oh for pete's sake.............
You are the short-sighted shallow person you make Chelsea out be be. To make a sweeping judgement about her based on that answer made on the spot shows you for what you really are; nothing more.
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krkaufman (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #126
143. "Perhaps you had clairvoyance then, and that’s extraordinary."
This is the part of Chelsea's response that was inappropriate. She did fine with the initial response, but she personalized it and did so in a petty manner.

Rather than ridiculing the questioner, Chelsea should have done what her mom does when this question is asked, and placed the blame at the feet of George Bush.
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CorpGovActivist (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Thu Feb-21-08 03:41 AM
Response to Reply #143
196. .
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moodforaday (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #126
173. Well yes, this is what I would expect
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 10:19 AM by marekjed
"Did you expect her to say that her mom's actions had killed millions of Iraqi's, regardless of how you may view it."

This is exactly the kind of integrity that is called for. Instead, everyone is working in CYA mode.

While attacking Chelsea for her dad's and her mom's doings is missing the point (unless the point is to show what an insulated, ignorant person she is), but then - what is she doing campaigning for Hillary? If she is campaigning, any question that could be asked of Hillary is fair, she can't have it both ways.

"The question to her was way over the top the way it was put to her,"

OH MY GOD, poor Chelsea, she was maimed and tortured with a f*cking QUESTION! Spare me.
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Martin Eden Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #126
176. Hillary Clinton deserves plenty of criticism for her votes
Chelsea's remark was understandable, given that the questioner was accusing her mother of being responsible for a million deaths.

Of course, if you're going to participate in a political campaign of this magnitude and put yourself in front of a microphone, you should be prepared for those kind of questions. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Bottom line though, Chelsea is not the issue here.
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CorpGovActivist (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Feb-18-08 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #176
191. If campaign coin pays for her appearances...
... she's fair game.

- Dave
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #28
153. Exactly . . . so true . . .
the cover-up immediately ---

"no one knew!" . . .

And -- unfortunately -- I think Chelsea is deluding herself ---
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FARAFIELD (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
96. maybe she can cry next
AND GET SOME SYMPATHY
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BadgerKid Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Donate to DU! Sat Feb-16-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
120. I doubt her opinion is informed
Maybe you're already aware, but take a look at her life thus far. According to Wikipedia, Chelsea has come back to positions associated with Clinton family. Which may be fine, etc., but it doesn't give me a strong impression she's out there on her own, and moreover, with her own informed opinion. I suggest that her environment may have been a sheltered one.
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misanthrope (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #120
141. Nooooo...
..."Sheltered?" The daughter of one of the nation's biggest political power couples? Say it ain't so...
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Carolina (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #120
158. then maybe she should
only do photo ops and keep her mouth shut.

However, if she opts to be out on the campaign trail, SPEAKING on behalf of HRC, then she will get tough questions, so she better get used to it.

If the campaign wants here out there to help soften HRC's image, then this sort of response does just the opposite.

Can't take the heat...
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ErnestoG (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
146. political entitlement is in the genes I guess
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CorpGovActivist (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
182. .
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DemGa (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. Barack himself has said he didn't know what he would do
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 03:41 PM by DemGa
had he been there to make the choice. He's also said his criticisms were based on current politics. Now, where's the diligence?
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Donate to DU! Sat Feb-16-08 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. I bet he would have read the reportUpdated at 9:46 PM
its like following the rules of the DNC, its the responsible thing to do.

Gee, he's doing that isn't he?
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DemGa (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. I have no idea what he would have done
And judging from his statements -- neither does he.
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
81. Judging from his votes since he's actually been in the Senate
I don't doubt for a SECOND that he would have also voted for the IWR. Not a second.
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ellisonz (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #81
155. You must be kidding...
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #155
185. Not at all. nt
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ErnestoG (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
128. Of course he would have. He hasnt been close to PNAC like...you know....
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Skwmom (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. He said that on Meet the Press when he didn't want to hurt
Kerry's chances to win in 04.
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Skwmom (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. Amazing how such a wonk, someone who always does their
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 03:56 PM by Skwmom
homework failed to read the National Intelligence Estimate when they were deciding whether to send our troops (or fathers, sons, brothers, mothers, sisters and daughters) off to war.
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jackson_dem (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #24
138. and in 2006. What is the excuse for that?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
29. "What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made."
That's what he said. In 2004, he didn't know all the info the Senate had available to make their decision, that they had a lot more than was thought. He was leaving the possibility of some kind of secret intelligence, that's all. We now know there wasn't any. His vantage point was correct.
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DemGa (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #29
44. Not the vantage point of a Senator who had to decide
And therefore, your point is moot. Besides, he said he doesn't know what he would have done. Period.

OBAMA: 'What would I have done? I don't know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made.''

And then there's the political expediency:

OBAMA: Now, Tim, that first quote was made with an interview with a guy named Tim Russert on Meet the Press during the convention when we had a nominee for the presidency and a vice president, both of whom had voted for the war, so it probably was the wrong time for me to be making a strong case against our party's nominees' decisions when it came to Iraq.

And this:

OBAMA: But keep in mind, I think this is a tough question and a tough call. What I do think is that if you're going to make these tough calls, you have to do so in a transparent way, in an honest way, talk to the American people, trust their judgment.

It's funny hearing Obama saying he "got it right" when he wasn't there, give a pass to Kerry, admit he doesn't know what he would have done, AND condemn Clinton all at once. Very bizarre!

http://mediamatters.org/items/200711110004
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
94. He did get it right
Kerry opposed the invasion in Jan 2003 and said Bush was not living up to the conditions of the IWR. He says he didn't have the intelligence the Senate had, but from his vantage point the case was not made. He got it right. Hillary supported the war and has only recently even come to the point of supporting any kind of withdrawal. She bullies Putin. Bullies Iran. She will be more of the same.

And Media Matters was co-founded by Hillary Clinton so I don't give a lot of credibiity to them on anything related to Hillary.
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LordJFT (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
97. He still voiced a view that was unpopular at the time because it was the right thing to do.
When has Hillary ever done this?
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DemGa (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. Healthcare '93...nt
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LordJFT (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #98
104. actually I believe that had popular support, it was in congress that it failed
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LordJFT (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #98
105. delete-dupe
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 08:30 PM by LordJFT
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ErnestoG (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
127. So your candidate stands as the only one with an IWR Yes vote.
That's just the fact. Get over it and stop your whining.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Donate to DU! Sat Feb-16-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
130. I think he would have voted PRESENT
or FOR it
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ErnestoG (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #130
144. better than Hillary's "yes" isnt it
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JAbuchan08 (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
181. Unfortunately for your argument you don't know what he WOULD have done
we only have what he and Hillary actually DID do. SHe voted for the war he spoke out against it.
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Possumpoint (570 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well Said!
Very well indeed!
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countingbluecars Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. Very good post.
Thanks.

K&R
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CorpGovActivist (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Feb-18-08 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #6
189. .
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. Pretty ignorant and arrogant comment on her part.
Two characteristics I don't want telling me how to vote.

I forgive her though, because she's young and its her mother she's trying to help.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Donate to DU! Sat Feb-16-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. well, what would you say if your mother made that voteUpdated at 9:46 PM
The young lady (can't call her a kid, she's nearly 30 now) would probably not want
to think that her mother contributed to so many innocent deaths.
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CorpGovActivist (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Feb-18-08 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
193. .
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Beausoir (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. Obamanation is now savaging Chelsea Clinton?! Am I really seeing this happen?
Chelsea Clinton. A nice, dignified, kind young woman.

Is there anyone in the world who is safe from the smears of the Hope and Change movement??

Anyone? Besides Oprah, I mean.
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Jim Lane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
34. This was not a "savaging" of Chelsea Clinton
Yes, she is a nice, dignified, kind young woman.

That doesn't insulate her from being called out when a particular statement of hers is erroneous.

As St. Augustine said, "Love men. Slay errors." The OP isn't a savaging or even a personal attack on Chelsea Clinton. If she chooses to participate in the political arena, then people who disagree with her are entitled to express their disagreements. That's all the OP did.

When Michele Obama expressed some hesitation about working to elect Hillary Clinton if she's the nominee, that particular statement was attacked (and rightly so, in my opinion). This case is similar.
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 01:46 AM
Original message
True---by demeaning is not good at all. take a peep at some of these hateful Obamacaper comments!
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Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
35. Oh yeah.... "savaging." Savaging to disagree, or point out contradictions.
Savaging is Rush Limbaugh making fun or her looks.

In a free society, it is not "savaging" to challenge someone's state opinions and present evidence of an alternative perspective.

No one SHOULD be safe from critical thinking and questioning.

What's pathetic is the ridiculous ploy you are employing to treat any criticism as some sort of horrendous injustice.

Chelsea is a nice dignified, kind young woman who just happened to make a statement that is wrong and pretty ignorant, and I back that up with all the evidence already given. That's not "savaging" - that's called acting like a responsible grown up and questioning / challenging perspectives.


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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #8
41. If Mrs Obama had made a similar statement would you not feel it was a rude comment?
I really don't appreciate the "Obamanation" meme personally. x(

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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #8
62. Reminds me of the horrible jokes McCain used to make about
Chelsea back when she was still just a kid. I see now that if Obama is the Democratic candidate, we truly will have two truly despicable candidates to choose between in the general election. Some people are downright hateful.
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Matteon (154 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #62
85. When?
When did Obama ever say anything bad about Chelsea?
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Danger Mouse DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #62
109. Excuse me?
1.) When has Obama ever said ANYTHING bad about Chelsea?

2.) How is the OP even in ANY WAY offensive to Chelsea? It's just pointing out that her statement is absurd.

Or is any sort of criticism of Chelsea an offensive and horrible attack?
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stevedeshazer Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #62
134. Obama is "truly despicable"?
That's all ya 'truly' got?
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arewenotdemo (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #62
152. If Hillary can forgive McCain for the puerile joke he made about Chelsea
and according to none other than Big Dog himself, they're damned near best buds...why won't you?
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Danger Mouse DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
108. How is it 'savaging' to call her to carpet for an asinine remark?
I'm waiting.
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jackson_dem (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #8
139. No. They are giving death threats to Tavis Smiley for daring to criticize St. Obama
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misanthrope (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
142. I would call it...
...taking a pampered little rich girl to task for ridiculing a member of the hoi polloi who asked a difficult question.
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Recursion (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #142
149. "hoi" means "the"
Just a pet peeve of mine
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misanthrope (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #149
150. Then you're also aware...
...the term is acceptably used in the modern parlance of American English as I wrote it. Yes, it's technically incorrect, but the phrase's usage in our culture is along those lines.

From Oxford American:

hoi polloi |ˈhoi pəˌloi|
plural noun (usu. the hoi polloi) derogatory
the masses; the common people : avoid mixing with the hoi polloi.
ORIGIN mid 17th cent.: Greek, literally ‘the many.’

USAGE 1 Hoi is the Greek word for the, and the phrase hoi polloi means ‘the many.’ This has led some traditionalists to insist that hoi polloi should not be used in English with the, since that would be to state the word the twice. But, once established in English, expressions such as hoi polloi are typically treated as fixed units and are subject to the rules and conventions of English. Evidence shows that use with the has now become an accepted part of standard English usage:: they kept to themselves, away from the hoi polloi (rather than | . . . away from hoi polloi).

2 Hoi polloi is sometimes used incorrectly to mean ‘upper class’—that is, the exact opposite of its normal meaning. It seems likely that the confusion arose by association with the similar-sounding but otherwise unrelated word hoity-toity.
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ellisonz (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #8
156. Yeah! Hands off the white women!
Edited on Sun Feb-17-08 07:09 AM by ellisonz
:sarcasm:
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Carolina (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
159. spare me
If she opts to be out on the campaign trail, speaking on behalf of HRC, then she will get tough questions, so she better get used to it or go back to doing photo-ops only.

Besides, challenging her mother's vote for death and destruction (which is what war is) and challenging Chelsea about it not savaging "a nice, dignified, kind young woman."

Chelsea's snarky clairvoyance remark does not help her mother's case. Everyone knows that hindsight is 20/20 but it didn't take hindsight to see that Iraq was never an imminent threat.

Sheesh, HRC people are so thin-skinned.

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CorpGovActivist (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Feb-18-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
194. Ms. Clinton stepped up to the big person's microphone. Not a stellar performance...
... from the Don't Ask, Don't Tell Double Helix offshoot.

- Dave
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LaurenG Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
9. That was a very defensive answer.
The question hit a nerve and she reacted poorly. :thumbsdown: x(
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
10. Excellent thread. And, my opinion of Chelsea has gone down quite a bit. How snotty.
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Whisp (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
46. I have a feeling she really doesn't want to do this schtick for her parents.
she seems shy and withdrawn - and it would take a Lot of personal strength to go through with all this if she has self esteem issues .

but her stage parents may be demanding it of her. and all on their own terms.
Chelsea, hun, you go out there to stump for me and defend my vote for the slaughter of millions, you will be protected in that we will make sure no reporter can interview you or DARE say ANYTHING slightly NEGATIVE about you throughout this campaign - thanks to Mr. Shuster.
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Diane R Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
77. I agree with you. She's a reluctant warrior. I'm sure she can't wait to get back to her own life.
I doubt it was her idea to spend three or four months on the stump, campaigning for her mom. She probably thought she'd put in a weekend in Iowa, her mom would sweep on to N.H. and Nevada, and it would be game over. Once they realized they WEREN'T 'inevitable', the pressure on her to become a campaign surrogate must have been intense.

And, she' probably grown up hearing political/campaign discussions 24/7. Ugh. She's also mostly been exposed to her parent's POV, and she's led an insular (and entitled, I might add), life.

I can see how/why she made the 'clairvoyant' comment. But that doesn't make it right.
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rodeodance (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #77
147. Pure speculation on your part. How dare you question her motives.
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misanthrope (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #10
145. What do you expect? Look at her background**nm
**
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CorpGovActivist (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Feb-18-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
192. .
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ExtraGriz Donating Member (403 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
11. good job chelsea..
this was a condescending mocking question, glad to see chelsea slapped her down
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Madam Mossfern (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
38. One hoping to garner votes
best not 'slap down' questioners publicly. Chelsea is no ingenue in politics; she was weaned on it. That remark did not help her mother's campaign.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Donate to DU! Sat Feb-16-08 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
60. No. It was a legitimate question.Updated at 2:49 AM
Sorry. Her mom wants to hold the most powerful office in the world.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
122. Slapped her down?
:wtf:

If you mean that exhibiting zero compassion or remorse for a million horrible deaths somehow gains the moral high ground...

What is wrong with people?
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tokenlib (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
12. Chelsea sounds so out of touch....
Clairvoyance my ass!! All these tens of thousands of people who had better judgement about Iraq. All these tens of thousands who were ignored. All these tens of thousands who had hope and believed that they could make a difference. No wonder so many people want to "turn the page. People like Mrs. Clinton blew us off then, and in an insulting patronizing manner presume upon us now.

I remember standing with one of those crowds. The president and/or leader of Barack Obama's United Church of Christ spoke out against the war and stood with us. Chelsea apparently has judgement flaws like her mother--or a lousy memory.
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arewenotdemo (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #12
79. Chelsea may be out of touch with the anti-war movement.
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 06:37 PM by arewenotdemo
But then again, probably not many Code Pinkers do hedge funds.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #79
123. Paris, Rome, London, San Francisco, New York, DC... everywhere
The largest demonstrations in the history of civilization, worldwide, and the Clinton family is unaware.
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CorpGovActivist (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Tue Feb-19-08 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #12
195. Let the military families eat cake, she sniffed.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Donate to DU! Sat Feb-16-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
13. Quit picking on Hillary, she twusted Georgie Bush, and wules don't appwy to her eitherUpdated at 9:46 PM
shes just a helpless widdle wady who had no idea that Georgie would lie,
and she also didnt know that wules appwy to hur!

:sarcasm:
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. LOL !!! - You Bad !!!
:spank:
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latebloomer Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
65. ROFL!!
:rofl:
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Donate to DU! Sat Feb-16-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. great post pls provide a link back to the original article so
that people will see what the context was.

BTW The reason that this keeps coming up is because of the stubborness of Hillary in not calling it a mistake and taking care of it on "day 979" or whenever everybody in the country realised it was a mistake. By not taking that very sensible step she has left her supporters and in this case Chelsea with nothing more than sarcasm. Its Hillary's mistake not Chelsea.

This is the same position we were in much of the time with Bill when he couldn't admit to an error and it is the boat we will all be in if in its insanity the democratic party nominates Hillary. Its one thing to be wrong about the war many good people were, and I gave Edwards a pass on it (so I would have done the same thing with Hillary). But this stubborness reveals a charachter flaw that "isn't worth a roll of the dice".
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seafan Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
32. The link is within the boxed quote's text. n/t
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lisainmilo (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
137. You got it!

BTW The reason that this keeps coming up is because of the stubborness of Hillary in not calling it a mistake and taking care of it on "day 979" or whenever everybody in the country realised it was a mistake. By not taking that very sensible step she has left her supporters and in this case Chelsea with nothing more than sarcasm. Its Hillary's mistake not Chelsea.

This is the same position we were in much of the time with Bill when he couldn't admit to an error and it is the boat we will all be in if in its insanity the democratic party nominates Hillary. Its one thing to be wrong about the war many good people were, and I gave Edwards a pass on it (so I would have done the same thing with Hillary). But this stubborness reveals a charachter flaw that "isn't worth a roll of the dice".


If Bill had been forthright and remorseful in the Lewisnsky case and Hillary forright and remorseful with the Iraq vote, Chelsea would not be defending questions like this. I bet she will be glad to get back to her own life, lets hope she has not picked up the same habits.
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K Gardner (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
15. This is one of those posts that will still be valuable 2 years from now.. thank you So much. One for
my email list, excellent info. K&R
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krkaufman (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. Yes, the questioner should have followed-up asking whether the full Iraq NIE ...
... wouldn't have been a major portion of the "best available evidence" and why Sen. Clinton opted not to read it before voting to allow troops to be sent into harm's way.
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JimGinPA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. She Didn't Need To Read It...
She was "briefed" :sarcasm:
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krkaufman (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #27
136. Exactly. Somehow she was "briefed" by people who weren't authorized ...
... to read the full, 92-page classified Iraq NIE. Or was she briefed by one of the 6 Senators who actually bothered to read the document before voting to allow Bush to send the troops into Iraq?
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CorpGovActivist (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
20. Another Clinton demonstrates the common touch. n/t
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arewenotdemo (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
82. Touche.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. Outstanding.
Thank you.

Nominated.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. Oh. Little Miss "Pure" can get snippy, huh? If she can dish it, I hope
she'll be able to take it.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
25. She's a Clinton, all right.
:puke:
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Seeker30 (904 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
26. In the meantime Obama votes to continue funding the war
Fucking hypocrites
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tokenlib (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. No one has clean hands on this...
To cut off funding opens us to charges of "not supporting the troops." Since the transforming influence of Reagan--dems have had to fight the "weak on the military" charges. That shadow of Reagan still "dogs" democratic politicians.

It's not right, it angers me--I wish they'd all shredded the Iraq checkbook long ago. But until we control both the White House and Congress this war will go on.
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fortyfeetunder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
30. Someone ought to send this to Chelsea with dates...
so she might have a clue she misstepped with her answer....
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DemGa (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
33. I think I stepped off into Free Republik
Those cretins deliver no less vitriol toward the Clintons -- Chelsea included -- than what I see here.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. You said it. They should change the name to

OO.

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Seeker30 (904 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. I don't think...I know
and realized it quite a while ago.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #42
50. Then, you would be wrong. n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. Really? How many freepers marched ahead of the war?
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 04:15 PM by sfexpat2000
Excuse me, but MILLIONS of people who knew better she did. And I bet you, few of them were freaks.

It wasn't ROCKET SCIENCE to know this war was BULLSHIT and that innocent people were going to DIE. You didn't need to be Edgar Cayce to know this was bullsh!t.

You didn't need to be a prophet to see why Clinton was voting for the indefensible. She was setting up this run and her image was more important than human life.

And, she's reaping what she sowed with that political calculation. As she should. It was her vote after all.








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Major Hogwash (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #45
102. Well, I would venture not many of them marched against the war at all.
Instead they complained about the heat in the deserts of California and blamed Governor Grey Davis for the high electric bills.
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Danger Mouse DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #45
111. well done.
:pals:
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DemGa (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #45
118. "She was setting up this run and her image was more important than human life."
That's pure supposition. Careful blurring opinion and fact.

--St. Obama has said he did not know what he would do.

--Provided political cover for Kerry over his vote.

--Claims he "got it right" when he was not there. It's just a silly argument -- Again, more rampant supposition.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #118
124. Oh, please. We all saw this run coming before she ran in New York.
Edited on Sat Feb-16-08 09:07 PM by sfexpat2000
And, I do not worship at Obama's temple. thanks. That's just a red herring.

When you are a US Senator, you can be responsible for your votes or you can send your daughter out to muddy the waters. That's the kind of "leader" Hillary is.

Eta: I know I sound too mad. I'm mad at every weasel who voted for that POS and is now trying to slime out of what they brought upon us all.
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Raster Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #45
133. If ANYONE sitting in the Senate should have know the Iraq was was bullshit, it would have been HRC.
By their own admission, HRC was privy to much of the same intelligence as her husband. She was his confidant. They were a team. She knew. SHE HAD TO KNOW. But to be fair, I don't believe the vast majority of those that did vote to invade Iraq believed the cheney*/bush* misadministration's lies. I believe most did what was politically expedient and decided to hedge their bets and make the easy vote.
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Carolina (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #45
160. "she's reaping what she sowed with that political calculation"
exactly. And calling her on it is not being a freeper.

If anything, the posters here who question, label and otherwise disparage those of us who point out HRC's past "leadership" and judgment failure are more like freepers. How dare we challenge the queen... is like their how dare anyone challenge Bush.

Sheesh.
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Danger Mouse DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
110. more of the 'victim' bullshit.
:puke:
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ClintonTyree (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Feb-17-08 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #33
154. Exactly....
the Obama "supporters" at DU have me wondering if I CAN pull the lever for their messiah should that time come. I've never seen such spiteful, hateful, adolescent vitriol on the pages of DU against another Democrat -save Joe Lieberman- and Hillary is NO Lieberman.

This childish hatred of the Clintons reeks of FR, and it's quite sickening. I always said I'd vote for any Democrat that won the nomination, but pulling the lever for a cult leader is something altogether different.

Obama's "supporters" may be his worst enemy when it comes time to get elected.
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Yael Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
39. Excellent post. Well written!
K&R
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dcindian (881 posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
40. There is a sickness in the Clinton family.
Called avoidance of responsibility. It is a clear lack of virtue or moral character to not assume responsibilities for one's own action.


Millions upon millions of the people of this world condemned the war vote.

No..... Clairvoyance had nothing to do with it, but laziness uncaring self serving war mongery had everything to do with the Clinton vote.
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sat Feb-16-08 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
43. Chelsea is the Clinton's perfect faux-victimization tool