Tell me again there is no difference between Kerry and Bush

[NNN0LHI]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=544&ncid=703&e=4&u=/ap/20040308/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_judges

Kennedy Questions Bush Recess Appointment

WASHINGTON - President Bush (news - web sites)'s appointment of former Alabama Attorney General William Pryor to the U.S. Appeals Court during a congressional recess may be unconstitutional, contends Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass. snip

Liberal groups campaigned against Pryor's ascension to the federal appeals court, citing his criticism of the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade (news - web sites) decision that said women had a constitutional right to terminate pregnancy. He also came under fire for filing a Supreme Court brief in a Texas sodomy case comparing homosexual acts to "prostitution, adultery, necrophilia, bestiality, possession of child pornography and even incest and pedophilia."

more

[mstrsplinter326]

1. There is no difference between Kerry and Bush

Ok, i only did it because you asked me to.

I think the point those who compare the two are trying to make is that Kerry is right of center. That's fact. The democratic party aught to be the political opposite of the republican party. That's the way a two party system is supposed to work. There's too much common ground, or "differences in severity" or "differences in timing" for many left wingers to swallow. Not all leftys, just quite a few. I know I personally feel disenfranchised by my choices.

[sangh0]

3. trash, all trash

I don't know where you got such crazy ideas or the nerve to declare them "fact"

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

4. Calling Kerry right of center is the same as calling Bush left of center

that is to say, it is a false statement with no basis in reality.

[welshTerrier2]

9. well, it might have plenty of basis in reality

i suppose it depends on how one defines the center ...

if you measure Kerry against other elected U.S. officials then the statement is absurd ... his voting record is clearly left of center ...

on the other hand, it you compare his voting record to various socialist nations or perhaps to the Green party, his views on a spectrum of available views might very well be right of center ...

[jpgray]

8. Yes, Kerry is a bit right of center--but that makes him quite liberal

In terms of our own country's politics, and even those of some of our allies. Take a look, folks:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. That's if you accept the ratings of that website as gospel

and also if you agree 100% with that website about where the center is.


Since the only people on that chart who are to the left of Kerry, are DK and Al Sharpton, I'd have to say their definition of the center is skewed.

[achtung_circus]

38. Do you have a link

for your social values map?
Or some rationale for your axes?

[jpgray]

40. Sure

Here you go:

http://www.digitalronin.f2s.com/politicalcompass/index.html

edit: It's by no means the definitive be-all end-all for political position, but it's more or less accurate on general terms.

[redqueen]

10. This is perfectly accurate,

if you observe politics globally, and not just here in the US. Here, he makes a passable liberal if you judge by the special interest ratings. I wonder if those will change due to his 2003-2004 votes? Hmmmm.

[mstrsplinter326]

15. Being left

"The Democrats have become today's dictionary-definition conservatives."
"The DLC is pro-business and pro-military."
www.garlicandgrass.org

Will Kerry give me national health care?
Will Kerry legalize the growing of hemp to stir the nation's manufacturing?
Will Kerry ensure that the Patriot Act meets its doom?
Will possessing 100 marijuana plants or seeds remain a crime more heinous than man-slaughter in federal law under Kerry?
Will the Death penalty be abolished under Kerry?
Will Kerry stop the billions of dollars going to business that need no support?
Will Kerry raise the minimum wage to the over $10 it should be?
Will Kerry force automakers and plastic companies to do R&D in non-petroleum solutions.

Before you fly off the handle. STOP! I like Kerry a hundred times more than Bush. I like the dems better than the repukkks. But I still think better candidates exists. Particularly candidates that are populist and more liberal. Of course the best candidate on all issues cannot be reached ever, but that's no reason to stop trying.
You may say that I'm a dreamer but I'm not the only one.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

2. They're both running for President, right?

Therefore, they are exactly the same.

[boobooday]

5. Every time I hear the word "bestiality"

It is from the mouth of a Republican.

Kerry won't talk about bestiality. There's a big difference.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[LoZoccolo]

6. This is one of the funniest things I have ever seen here ever.

This is your message board, sir. The rest of us just post on it.

[noahmijo]

7. Kerry's a Libertarian leaning liberal

Or in simple terms he could be classified as a fiscal conservative (in the sense that he looks for actual solutions and results rather than just "throwing money at the problem") and socially he opposes moral legislation.

Read his book "A Call To Service" to get a better insight on what the guy is all about. Especially read it if you really think him and Bush are two peas in a pod.

I'll openly admit that as a registered Libertarian I took interest after the Iowa primaries in seeing who the "hotshot who came outta nowhere" was all about, as at that point I couldn't stomach the idea of another 4 years of Bush.

If John Kerry is any indication of what the majority of the Democrat Party is about I'm looking to re-register as a Dem in the future soon. Truthfully I bought into the idea that the majority of Dem candidates were total socialists, but then i decided to do my own unbiased research and saw quite differently.

[Bread and Circus]

Good, cuz a lot of Dems are fairly libertarian...

and support wholeheartedly the freedoms the Constitution
means to protect.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

11. Interesting take.

As someone who fits in the political spectrum somewhere between Earth First! and Libertarianism, with a huge emotional dollop of social conscience that doesn't always square with my more thought-out viewpoints, and a pragmatic streak a mile wide -- I tend to agree with you.

[noahmijo]

17. Yea that's about me too

I mean on one hand I don't agree with the complete left wingers that scream for the destruction of every corporation (even if they are good like Ben and Jerry's) but on the other hand I don't pretend to think that some CEO's outta not be hammered for their crimes.

Don't get me started on the right wingers who say I can't be a true Catholic because I don't believe that some federal judge has the right to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body for starters.

I stated in a previous post that I'm more of a Nash-Equlibrium guy in the sense that I believe in doing what's best for you AND society in these sense that it's possible to be wealthy or at least content without shitting all over the little guy. Basically I'd be the guy that pays workers a little more than average because it not only achieves better production and it saves me money because they don't need to go out and get 3 jobs, but it's also socially responsible.

Kerry to me speaks as a guy who understands that certain aspects of Free Trade can be a good thing, but they should be used in the most socially responsible manner to protect worker's rights, environment, ect. Of course these beliefs are a far cry from your typical libertarian, but that's why I too consider myself a libertarian LEANING liberal. I know most of you lefties and democrats on here prefer the term "fair trade" that's fine if you wanna use that I'm not as big on labels as I am on what they actually mean.

BTW I personally love Kerry's plan to make us energy independent. The fact that Hybrid vehicles are about to make a splash from the consumer to the government (military) markets is great news. These innovations should fit in nicely with Kerry's plan to rid us of saudi terrorist oil dependence, and of course that ridiculous plan to drill up the Alaskan Wilderness. As Kerry says we can't drill our way out of these problems.

I think when I get a job after graduation I'm going to look into getting the Hybrid Ford Escape, 4-Wheel drive, V-6 engine like power 32-40 mpg CITY.

Anyways Kerry has his work cut out for him. You have to understand that even if he wins don't expect miracles and big changes overnight. He still has a Republican Controlled Congress and a warehouse load of problems to contend with. But at least it'll be a positive change in direction. One of the first things I would expect to see are other nations like France and Germany embracing us warmly again.

[Beetwasher]

22. Dude, A Hearty Welcome

You will find this a very amiable place I'm sure! :toast:

[The Magistrate]

13. Welcome To The Forum, Mr. Mijo

Sen. Kerry is pretty typical of Democrats, you will find.

Perhaps some day we may discuss Socialism; it is not always well described by either its enemies or its friends....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[noahmijo]

18. Well as with both Capitalism and Socialism

There are good points to each which can be used but I personally would never prefer a full Socialist OR Capitalist system. Apparently many others feel the same as we have a mixed economy.

[The Magistrate]

23. Indeed, Sir

That is my preference as well. Indeed, it seems on close examination the two systems blend into one another; the problems commonly associated with socialism in particular occuring when it is attempted to leap-frog over the captitalist system direct from a fuedal condition. But we digress. A pleasure to make your acquaintance, Sir.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[JohnLocke]

41. Socialism itself may be considered blended by definition.

Socialism, in some people's views, may not be a full economic philosophy, but rather a blend of communism and capitalism in varying degrees.

Edit: spelling.

[The Magistrate]

63. That Is A More Modern View, Sir

You will be familiar, my friend, with my regard for antiquity. In fact, there is no difference whatever between socialism and communism as original concepts. The attempt by the Bolsheviks, and later by the Maoists, to impose socialism forcibly on fuedal societies under conditions of war, necessarily authoritarian in the extreme, has come generally to be refered to as communism, and so the distinction has arisen, with authoritarian strains forcibly applied conceived as different thing than the more natural evolution that has lately marked most European polities in the West. The differences are real, of course, but they are not the result of seperate ideas in origin. Rather, they are the differences of seed fallen on fallow and fertile ground....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[DuctapeFatwa]

14. There you go! The differences between bush and Kerry may be more

related to presentation style than core policies, but that is an asset for Kerry, not a liability.

Current policies are popular with the voting class, bush is less so, largely because of his crudeness, and just not being a good spokesman.

Kerry has a talent for phrasing things with a lot more tact and grace than bush, and when some of the things you've got to phrase are US policies, I don't think that is a small advantage.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

16. Too bad nothing you've posted has any relation to reality.

But let's say we accept your false premise that Kerry and Bush are equally bad -- what should we do? How can we use the political process to make the world a better place? This forum is about the US presidential election - who should we suppport?

[mstrsplinter326]

20. That's the response that gets us introuble every year

that attitude propelled Al Gore to the top of the Dem ticket in 2000.
Vote for John this time. Vote for Dennis next time. Tell the media that they cant decide who's electable and who isn't. Tell them to stop misrepresenting situations like the Dean Yell. It's time for citizens to, in the words of Zach de la Rocha, 'take the power back.'
"Who holds the power in this torn nation, the priest (W & friends), the book (the Patriot Act & friends), or the congregation (the people)?"

[Feanorcurufinwe]

24. What response gets us in trouble?

You've lost me. ???

[mstrsplinter326]

26. Sorry

The "who can we choose, what are out options" response to the criticisms of neo-liberals

[Feanorcurufinwe]

33. You mean, voting is what gets us in trouble?

We are in trouble because we vote for whom we choose?

I'm understanding you less and less...

[mstrsplinter326]

43. no

You asked who would we vote for instead of Kerry as if he were the only option for the present. That may be, but that attitude also convinces people not to work toward a better future. That's all I'm saying. Work toward a better future. Better than WTO, better than the patriot act, Better than two similar political parties, etc.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

46. Kerry is not the only option, and that was my point.

The viewpoint you wish to ascribe to me is actually the exact oppposite of my opinion.


Here is the post you responded to:

But let's say we accept your false premise that Kerry and Bush are equally bad -- what should we do? How can we use the political process to make the world a better place? This forum is about the US presidential election - who should we suppport?



There is absolutely nothing in that comment that says or implies that Kerry is the only option. As a simple statement of fact, Kerry is not the only option.

[DuctapeFatwa]

28. The reality is that both parties fight over the same little pool of voters

Most people don't vote. Many because of poverty, many because their faith traditions simply do not include a strong belief in the electoral process.

And among those who do vote, few spend anywhere near the amount of time that the average DUer does reading politicians' websites, or news in general.

Al Gore did not win by a whole lot. It is unlikely that Kerry will win by a landslide, and it is a certainty that bush's people will attempt to paint Kerry as opposed to every aspect of US policy - policies which are popular with the voting class.

Whether you think they should be, or whether you think they have done all the research they should, and studied the issues in depth, is not really relevant.

The voters that Kerry needs in order to win see his support of the status quo as a PLUS.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

34. Perhaps you should try

educating the voters that you believe are so much more ignorant than you.

You could start by stating positive something that you believe in, some way these ignorant voters can act to make the world a better place.

Is there anything in the political process worth doing, besides complaining about it?

[mstrsplinter326]

44. That's the point I'm trying to make

Change what you see wrong, rather than settling for Kerry simply because he's not bush. Make Kerry support the environment, oppose WTO, raise min. wage (by 5 dollars or more), etc.
I think you were trying to counter me, but I am in total agreement!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

48. I don't advise anyone

to 'settle' for anyone. I encourage everyone to fight for what they believe in and vote for the candidate they believe will be the best President.

I don't see how you can fight for what you believe in unless you are willing to state what you believe in, however.

Why not let DF answer for his/her self?

[goobergunch]

19. What does this have to do with Kerry?

His name appears nowhere in this article.

There are certainly major differences between Kennedy and Bush*.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

25. I simply don't believe you don't know the answer to the question

you are asking.

[goobergunch]

27. It's a simple question.

The subject line says that this article demonstrates a difference between Kerry and Bush*. However, Kerry is not named in this article.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

30. Yes, and I believe you know the answer to it.

[goobergunch]

32. Humor me. (n/t)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

35. Sorry, no.

[goobergunch]

36. In that case

Your objection is overruled due to lack of evidence.

Held, that this article is not sufficient to hold Kerry separate from Bush*.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

37. Sorry, you are obviously smart enough to understand what's being said.

You've demonstrated your intelligence enough in the past, that you can't hide from it now.

[kiahzero]

53. Bush nominates psycho Fundie judges

Kerry doesn't. That's the difference.

[goobergunch]

55. Thank you. (n/t)

[MoonRiver]

21. You mean you're asking for a fairy tale?

Naw, they're fun, but there's too much at stake in this election to pretend play. We need hard cold facts. And those are that * is 360 degrees farther right than Kerry, the US Senator with the MOST liberal vote record ever.

[AntiCoup2K4]

29. What does Kerry have to do with the article quoted?

in a court of law this would be known as "assuming facts not in evidence."

Now personally, I believe that Supreme Court justices MIGHT be one of the few things Kerry gets right, but I don't know that for a fact, and neither do you.

In the end though the makeup of the courts won't really matter when the PNAC imperialists bring terrorism to the streets of America.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

31. Why pretend you don't know?

I mean, even the body of your post reveals that you know the answer to the question you posed in the headline of your post.

:wtf:

[AntiCoup2K4]

39. I could pull any random story out of the news.....

....and manufacture a phony connection to Kerry's candidacy. Hell, why not......

Possible sighting of Beagle probe

Monday, March 8, 2004 Posted: 6:43 PM EST (2343 GMT)

LONDON, England (Reuters) -- Beagle 2, the British space probe which disappeared as it descended towards Mars, may have been spotted on the surface of the Red Planet, scientists say.

No signal has been received from the craft since it was due to land on Christmas Day last year, despite various attempts by Mars orbiters and telescopes on Earth to make contact.

But photographic images of the area where Beagle 2 was to have come down show four bright spots, dubbed a "string of pearls" by scientists, which may be the remains of the probe.

"It could be the lander with its air bags and parachute," said Lutz Richter from the German Aerospace Center, who helped plan the Beagle 2 project as part of Europe's first solo mission to another planet.

Oh my God!! It's so crystal clear, I don't know how you can miss it!! If we don't all bow down and worship John Kerry right now and sit like passive sheep while the DLC installs a NeoCon administration in a Democratic wrapper than we will lose MORE SPACE PROBES!!

How will poor Lance Bass of the Backdoor Boys ever get to be an astronaut (and hopefully stuck orbiting Pluto forever) without our messiah in the White House??

Oh the Horror, the Horror!! :eyes:

[DuctapeFatwa]

42. Kerry likes beagles lots more than bush. bush's beagle even died

What more evidence do you need?

[mountebank]

45. If Left and Right are all you care about....

Then of course there is a difference - not gaping, but substantial - between Kerry and Bush.

However, if you care more about the other axis of the political spectrum, that being the difference between authoritarianism v. libertarianism (i.e. returning power to people instead of "leaders" and corporations), then there is not a substantial difference between Kerry and Bush.

The difference there is merely cosmetic: Bush has an overt jack-booted thug type authoritarianism, witness John Ashcroft. John Kerry's is just the standard corporation-firstism that has been part and parcel of every Administration in recent history. No substantial difference there in my opinion.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

47. If fantasy and conspiracy theories are all you care about

and you are willing to ignore the last 12 years of history, George Bush's record, and John Kerry's record, than your post is 100% correct.

[mountebank]

49. Not really a substantive response - sorry.

My point was simply that there is more to politics than Right and Left. There will be no shift in the power structure under a John Kerry presidency, in my opinion; therefore, the difference between Kerry and Bush in this respect is negligible. And this is more important to a lot of people (i.e. many Dean/Kucinich supporters) than issues of Right v. Left, conservatives v. liberals, socialism v. capitalism.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

51. You made a post without substance, what was I supposed to do?

Pretend something you said was grounded in reality? Sorry.

[AntiCoup2K4]

54. So in order to be "grounded in reality" (in your opinion), you must.....

...beilieve that only John Kerry, the reincarnation of Jesus Christ himself, can save the world (by wrapping PNAC imperial fascism up in a bright shiny bow and calling it something else)

[DuctapeFatwa]

56. ROFLMAO! You nailed it! Anything less is evil anti-Kerryism and must

be punished!

[Feanorcurufinwe]

60. To be grounded in reality you have to include at least one fact

that originated outside of your imagination.

[mountebank]

57. You might address how my post was wrong.

Instead of mentioning fantasy and conspiracy theories, neither of which appeared in my reply. In other words, use rational thought to prove me wrong.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

61. It included no facts, ignored history, Bush's record, and Kerry's record

as I stated originally.

[DuctapeFatwa]

50. He is a more attractive presenter, and that is no small advantage

There are plenty of mainstream Democrats, and Republicans too, for that matter, who have become disenchanted with bush's "thug" style.

Kerry has a talent for putting the unpleasant into pleasant words, and in a culture where form trumps substance, that's nothing to sneeze at.

Even Mary Poppins said it: "a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down"

[Feanorcurufinwe]

52. You've convinced us not to vote for Kerry. Now what?

Please share your wisdom with us, the ignorant and uninformed. What should we do?

[Zinfandel]

59. By election time Rove will have the fascist Bush looking like a moderate,

just like in 2000...and the mid west will eat it up and believe every word as they did with "compassionate conservativism" they'll look no further than cable news, talk radio, Bush's bullshit ads and the right wing weeklies... Yes, Bush is a moderate, almost a social Democrat who cares about the American people and is the only one to stop terrorism (even though he's done nothing and will continue to propagate fear, fear and more fear...that's exactly what Rove knows will bring in the borderline states...these fucks are afraid of their own shadows...terrorist, blacks, gays, pot smoking liberals, intelligent women, people who don't get behind bullshit organized religion, you name it...it's easy to capitalize on their fears and turn them into votes.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

62. Sorry, but your crystal ball is broken. your ability to predict the future

is no better than mine.

By election time, you will have been proven wrong in every way.

[JohnLocke]

64. Kick (nt).

:kick: :kick: