Senator Kerry on National Service

[MurikanDemocrat]

Creating a New Army of Patriots

On September 11th, 2001, America experienced the most terrible and deadly attack in its history. Yet, President Bush's response was to call on Americans to wait in long lines at airports, go shopping, or wrap their windows in plastic.

As President, John Kerry will have the courage to lead and call on all Americans to make our nation stronger. Whether it is protecting America from the threats of terrorism or addressing the problems we have at home, America's new challenges will not be met by the same old answers of big government or big tax cuts for the wealthy. John Kerry will call on all Americans - tapping into the idealism and ingenuity of Americans and putting it to work on building a safer, stronger, and more secure nation. Americans already make an enormous difference in their communities, volunteering, in Boys and Girls Clubs or homeless shelters. Many Americans do full time service. John Kerry believes that in these times, we need to bolster these efforts with a nationwide commitment to national service. Whether it is a Summer of Service for our teenagers, helping young people serve their country in return for college, or the Older Americans in Service program, John Kerry's plan will call on every American of every age and every background to serve. John Kerry will set a goal of one million Americans a year in national service within the next decade.

John Kerry Outlines Plan to Require Service for High School Students

Part of 100 days Plan to Enlist One Million Americans in National Service A Year

On September 11th, 2001, America experienced the most terrible and deadly attack in its history. John Kerry believes we need to think big and do better and get more young Americans serving the nation.

As part of his 100 day plan to change America, John Kerry will propose a comprehensive service plan that includes requiring mandatory service for high school students and four years of college tuition in exchange for two years of national service.

National Service Plan Highlights

"Service for College" Initiative
As President, John Kerry will call on young people to help strengthen America's security and address unmet community needs. In return, he believes we should offer young Americans and their families the opportunity for a college education. A Kerry Administration will offer Americans the chance to earn the equivalent of their state's four-year public college tuition in exchange for two years of service. If service members decide not to go to college, their award can be used for job training or to help start a business. John Kerry will set a national goal of half a million young people serving their nation every year within ten years. President Bush promised to double AmeriCorps, but he broke that promise and let Congressional Republicans cut the program in half. John Kerry believes we need to think big and do better and get 500,000 young Americans serving the nation.

100,000 Older Americans in Service
As President, John Kerry will defend and strengthen vital programs such as Medicare and Social Security, but he also believes on calling on America's seniors to give their time, experience, and expertise to an America that needs their help. As President, John Kerry would create the Retired Not Tired Program. By mentoring students, helping the infirm, or working in their communities for 10 hours a week, members can earn up to $2,000 a year tax free that they can apply to an education grant for a family member or a member of their community. Alternatively, seniors will be able to use these funds to defray their own health care costs. John Kerry plans to engage 100,000 seniors a year in service in the next decade.

High School Service Requirement
As President, John Kerry will ensure that every high school student in America performs community service as a requirement for graduation. This service will be a rite of passage for our nation’s youth and will help foster a lifetime of service. States would design service programs that meet their community and educational needs. However, John Kerry does not believe in unfunded mandates. No state would be obligated to implement a service requirement if the federal government does not live up to its obligation to fund the program.

Creating a New Community Defense Service
John Kerry believes we must create a new Community Defense Service to be guided by our nation’s first responders. This service would be comprised of hundreds of thousands of Americans in neighborhoods all over the country. Service captains would be there to make sure our communities have the information they need and are ready to respond a crisis, complimenting but not supplanting the work done by police, fire fighters, and other first defenders. Volunteer Service Captains would receive training and education to assist their communities in the event of an attack. They would be trained to help identify local health professionals and experts in the area, provide information on local evacuation or quarantine plans, and stand ready to be of assistance to first defenders. This initiative would be funded out of the Department of Homeland Security and administered by local community leaders, including first responders. This 'surge' capacity would be in addition to the expanded numbers of first responders John Kerry has already proposed hiring.

A Summer of Service for Teenagers
Thirteen to seventeen year olds are too old for child care and too young for many summer jobs. John Kerry believes we should tap their energy and idealism through a summer of service learning. Supervised by AmeriCorps members, these young people could help out in nursing homes, clean up local areas, or teach seniors computer skills. In turn, they would receive a $500 grant to apply to their college or vocational educations down the road. Parents do not want to leave their children alone all summer but most cannot afford other means of care. The Summer of Service program would give parents peace of mind and at the same time build more responsible and dedicated young citizens and stronger, more vibrant communities.

A Rebirth of the Peace Corps
If there was ever a time that everyday people in developing countries around the world needed to see idealistic, hard-working Americans struggling to help them succeed, it is today, in the aftermath of September 11th. Peace Corps members are the greatest ambassadors of goodwill and foot soldiers for democratization this nation has - and we need more of them. John Kerry believes we need a major expansion of the Peace Corps for this new century and in this new era. In the White House, John Kerry will push to expand the Peace Corps to 25,000 members.

Recruiting More Americans to the Military
The highest form of service is military service. America's military is having trouble recruiting and is increasingly relying on the reserves for active duty. John Kerry believes we must change that. The complicated missions we face and technologies we use depend on it. In a Kerry Administration, no university that receives federal aid will be allowed to ban the ROTC from their campus, except for religious reasons. And the ROTC scholarship program will be adequately funded so that students can attend the college of their choice. John Kerry will also make modernizing our GI benefits a top priority, because no program has been more successful increasing educational opportunities for veterans while also providing an incentive for the best and brightest to make a career out of military.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/natservice/

[WitchWay]

1. mandatory service

"As part of his 100 day plan to change America, John Kerry will propose a comprehensive service plan that includes requiring mandatory service for high school students and four years of college tuition in exchange for two years of national service."

"mandotory" service - like the "mandatory" ABB vote or the "unity" pledge?
Does this creep anyone else out?

Also - does this "mandotory" service take away jobs from workers who would get paid? That sounds anti-labor...

[LiberalBushFan]

2. no

There was a mandatory community service requirement at my high school. It didn't and still does not creep me out.

[WitchWay]

4. mandatory community service

I don't know about your background, but there are many students in this country who are poor and work in highschool to support their family and to earn money for college. For these students, they are already working hard at minimum wage jobs like TacoBell or McDonalds jobs while trying to keep up with their school work. It is not only unfair, but it is patronizing to MANDATE that all students do community service. A student may not like the community, and they have every right not to serve it. A student marginalized by his community might have very sound reasons as to why they do not want to serve this particular community.

There are also many students (especially girls) who are busy taking care of ill, sick, elderly relatives or children when they are out of school (sometimes, on top of a job)...to require mandatory "community service" of ALL students presumes that students are somehow lazy, ungrateful (and for some reason owe gratitude), and are otherwise NOT contributing to their community. Who is to dictate which ways a person contributes to their community? Or that a person even HAS to contribute to their community?

Finally, if there is work to be done, and it is filled with FREE student labor, that is costing other people jobs and money. So, community service is MANDATING students to be anti-labor, as they are free labor. Who can compete with free labor? A student may not wish to particapate in taking jobs away from others.

[MurikanDemocrat]

7. Oh cry me a river. You are making most of this shit up.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dogmudgeon]

10. Easy solutions?

Means testing.

Opt-out for reasons of "conscience".

Opt-out for employment.

Partnering with businesses.

Mandatory service for millionaires.

Kerry has already proposed financial aid incentives. This does not have to be an anti-labor, free-labor-for-the-rich program if it is done right.

And stop bickering, you two.

--bkl

[WitchWay]

11. I have good reason...

I do not want to sound like I am "bickering" or being unreasonable...but I must insist that it is not okay to MANDATE community service as a requirement for graduation. I feel it is a violation of the freedom of speech. Why not make a voluntary program? Why not an OPT-IN program? Volunteering is great, but should be optional.

I am especially not comfortable with the underlying meaning of mandating community service for high school students. It implies that there are negatives about high school students that need to be addressed (which I find untrue), without taking their realities into consideration. Also, it does not appreciate the subtleties of what "community" might mean to different people, and how students naturally support their own communities and notions of communities.

I myself have had personal experience of being used as cheap labor through the public school system. In addition, there was a community service elective in my junior highschool that I got even though I never signed up for it...(funny how only poor and/or minority students got this special elective -- instead of art,dance,music).

So, I DO feel rather strongly about this matter. I believe this opens the doors to dangerous possibilities regarding the use of students as labor. Community service should be voluntary and never mandatory.

[Dogmudgeon]

12. Not the only one

I agree with most of your points, but take major exception to the idea that it has to be exploitative. And "mandatory" often isn't, especially when Constitutional principles are involved.

In my high school, we did have opt-in service. And teachers would bribe you with better grades. Since nearly all of the service events were charitable athletic events, you can guess where that left the non-athletes.

Opt-out allows the person to choose to not opt out. This may seem like a absurdity, but it isn't. I've known a couple of kids who have carefully described their parents as being over-strict, simply so they could turn down tobacco, alcohol, drugs, religiomania, or other peer-pressured activities. Using one's "service" as a way to get out from under a too-heavy thumb (school, parents, peers) would be a welcome change for most kids.

Teenagers are trapped by their circumstances. They are commanded to be responsible, but given little or no power to exercise their responsibility. Something like "mandatory" volunteer service could easily allow a transitional environment to develop. Although the media regularly describes under-18 independence as an excuse to drink and screw, for most young people, it is an opportunity to define who they are, something that home life, church, and school militantly oppose.

Service for older people could have its benefits, too. Many people, for instance, volunteer at hospitals. My father did, for years -- and he died in the same hospital. And it dunned us for supposedly unpaid bills for years after his demise, in spite of the fact that his insurance paid for all of the services.

"Mandatory" service might make some of these issues a little bit better scrutinized.

As for undercutting labor, what better environment could there be for unionization than a large group of people in a governmentally-ordained space? The nature of the "Work Ethic" would come under inspection, especially as long-time volunteers without health insurance get sick. You can bet that the idea that people have to be threatened with poverty to work would die a quick and undignified death!

And let me circle back to my original idea -- "mandatory" doesn't have to be mandatory. Providing comprehensive opt-outs would assure that no one would be a slave to volunteer service.

On the face of it, sure, it's slavery and I didn't like it initially, either. But it will provide an enormous opportunity for progressive politics, labor organizing, and change the master/slave nature of modern employment. Why do you think that so many Republicans hate it?

--bkl
(edited the subject line)

[DoNotRefill]

14. So as long as they're PROGRESSIVE slaves, it's OK?

Thanks, but no thanks.

[sangha]

20. Slaves? Why don't you just start out with the Hitler references?

"High School Service Requirement"

"As President, John Kerry will ensure that every high school student in America performs community service as a requirement for graduation. This service will be a rite of passage for our nation’s youth and will help foster a lifetime of service. States would design service programs that meet their community and educational needs. However, John Kerry does not believe in unfunded mandates. No state would be obligated to implement a service requirement if the federal government does not live up to its obligation to fund the program"

If it were really as scary as you're trying to make it sound, you wouldn't have to make use of such absurd hyperbole.

[WitchWay]

82. absurd hyperboles?

So, you would also agree that John Kerry isn't using "hyperbole" when he expresses his wish to create a "new army of patriots"?

[gate of the sun]

237. Why are you so hip for this?????

I just can't figure it out, why would you support this?Would you support anything Kerry purposes? I just don't get it.Obviously Freedom is not that important to you when it involves a teenager.

[Dogmudgeon]

26. Slaves?

Re-read the post before you start flinging poo.

I'm talking about a program where participation is the norm -- not compulsion under threats of any kind.

By the way, if you think that is All About Kerry -- it isn't. I was discussing different aspects of volunteer service.

--bkl

[DoNotRefill]

34. Ummm....

"John Kerry will ensure that every high school student in America performs community service as a requirement for graduation."


Just how voluntary does that sound? It sure sounds to me like anybody who wants to get a high school diploma will be REQUIRED to perform community service. Or are we going to start parsing the word "requirement"?

[sangha]

43. What an obvious ploy

Just keep repeating and reposting the same line, and ignore all the other facts concerning the problem. It's such an obvious ploy that no one is biting

[Dogmudgeon]

67. Don't confuse them with facts ...

... they've already decided.

--bkl

[DoNotRefill]

79. BKL...If Bush issued the statement above...

You'd probably not think it's such a great idea, right?

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

102. Yes, it's constructive to identify the ploys used

by those who are willing to overlook the inconvenient facts.

[CTLawGuy]

325. in order to support Kerry (in the primary)

you need to be divorced from reality from the beginning.

You need to be convinced that

Supporting IWR is a progressive thing to do.

That the piddly tax cuts put in place by the other party benefits the middle class more than funding for education, homeland security, health care, and social programs. (if this is true, why don't we elimiate taxes? If we are going to become economic libertarians in regards to the middle class...)

That taking both sides of every issue makes one "electable."

That people actually care whether you served in a war, never mind that GW Bush beat a vietnam vet, that Bill Clinton beat two WWII vets, that reagan won during the cold war, and that war hero George McGovern lost 49 states.

that gays will forgive you for supporting a state amendment to prevent them from getting married, and that such action will sway even ONE religious nutball to vote for you.

So, DNR, I dont think they will be making any sense to you soon.

[MAlibdem]

149. Service is wicked easy...

And fun. I got 20 hours for spending two days campaigning for JK in NH and MA for National Honor Society (we have a 30 hour requirement).

Really, you put in a few days here and there with your buddies. What's hard about that? We're also REQUIRED, to get a high school diploma, to GO TO SCHOOL 180 DAYS A YEAR. Let's talk about that.

[sangh0]

176. OH MY GOD!!! A 180 days a year

Do they make you wear brown shirts?

:-)

[MAlibdem]

232. no...BUT WE HAVE TO PAY TO PARK!

that sort of IS fascism...im not sure why...but when i don't like something, it must be fascist or communist

[gate of the sun]

238. that's not the point

and why do you make fun of people for not liking this. Tell me why we should like this? I'd like to hear one good reason.

[sangha]

306. I don't care if you don't like it

Politics is not about the entertainment value of our laws

[gate of the sun]

375. Is this a discussion board?

I still haven't heard the value of this proposal I haven't heard why we should like this idea? This isin't about me not liking Kerry, this is about me questioning the supporter's hostility? Do you love this idea? Is that it? Obviously you choose to respond with "I don't care if you don't like it" but never had any thing to say about why you did.

[WitchWay]

48. Forced labor won't spark progressive anything

Many people, Republican and otherwise, hate it for good reason. Forcing every child to "opt-out" means forcing them to justify opting out and giving a government-approved excuse for opting out. So it does not remove the mandatory nature of the labor. You are still forced to do it, unless you give an acceptable excuse. That means you are not free to do whatever else you want with your time and energy instead of the "community service". It means that you either do "community service" or some other activity specifically approved by the government. So you are still forced to do what the government wants you to do.

Now, if you have an "opt-out" which requires no explanation or excuse, then that is better. But that just brings us back to "opt-in". Why force people to say, "no" unless there is some intent to pressure the children into labor? Why call it mandatory, then say you can opt out unconditionally, unless it's to browbeat children into going along against their preference? Better simply to have opt-in, and actually encourage, rather than coerce, children to participate. But even better yet, leave the whole matter of what children do to help their communities up to families and other non-governmental institutions of civil society.

If I understand your point about elderly services correctly, you mean that a mandatory community service program would network forced child laborers nationwide into a system that could set standards and provide all sorts of union-like support for the forced child laborers, like legal assistance, mechanisms to report abuse and corruption, etc. So what you are really suggesting is that forcing children into labor would justify the government extending the tentacles of its regulatory powers deeper and more comprehensively throughout civil society.

As for the idea that people only work to avoid poverty, I think that IS the reason why most people work, and what's wrong with that? You seem to agree completely with the view you claim to criticize: that people don't deserve health insurance unless they have some kind of Puritan/Calvinist work ethic, work for work's sake or service to a higher end, that if they work only because they have to to survive, that somehow they're not good citizens and really don't deserve healthcare. The fact is, everyone deserves healthcare whether they're lazy or not, just as everyone deserves police and fire department services whether they're lazy or not.

As for helping unionization, why doesn't Kerry repeal Taft-Hartley? But your point is, you think the mandatory forced chlid labor program will breed a whole new generation of young labor activists, because they'll enter the workforce having experienced a kind of unionized service system. Well, maybe it means they'll be more likely to join unions if their workplaces later in life are unionized, but they'll also expect their unions to protect them paternalistically like the mandatory forced child labor system did. That just breeds acquiescence to authority, and conditioning to paternalistic dominance. Unions are already way too paternalistic as it is. They act too much like government social service bureacracies, and not enough like the vibrant worker action movements they once were.
That would not only reinforce the master/slave employment paradigm, but also the master/slave union paradigm -- your dues will be deducted automatically, and your rights will be protected, because Big Brother is watching.

[mikehiggins]

148. "On the face of it, sure, it's slavery..." That sort of says it all, don't

you think?

Do you really think good things come from evil actions?

What is the difference between this and the Hitler Jugend? They were wrong and we are right?

Ahem.

[GreenArrow]

33. the whole mandatory aspect is reflective

of the increasingly authoritarian tone in this country. I wonder if the kids will have to wear uniforms? T-shirts, maybe? Junior anti-sex league, anyone?

[DoNotRefill]

35. If they do....

will they be brown?

[sangha]

44. I knew the Nazi references would be coming

and we all know how the Nazi's used state-designed community service programs for youths to take over the Reich. The Nazis really hated centralized power, so they let the states run the programs.

[mikehiggins]

150. The Nazi references are natural responses to a program like this

In simplest terms, this country alleges to be a free nation of free individuals.

Where does this scheme fit in with that concept?

[mobuto]

164. Free, but with responsibilities

That means we have to obey laws, pay taxes, serve on juries, register with the selective service administration, and generally contribute to society. If you don't like it, you can go somewhere where people are truly free to do as they wish - Somalia, for instance, where there is no government, there are no laws, no taxes, no national service, and everyone can do as they wish.

[FeebMaster]

166. Love it or leave it.

That's nice.

[mobuto]

167. Truly

With freedom comes responsibility.

[FeebMaster]

169. Maybe the responsibility not to abuse it.

But we have laws to deal with that sort of thing. This whole mandatory service slavery is freedom thing is creepy. This whole thread is creepy and nausea inducing.

[mobuto]

171. Well, that may reflect different backgrounds

I was raised, as John Kerry was raised, to believe that public service is not a choice but a duty of every citizen in a democracy.

I suspect in an earlier era, you would have opposed compulsory school attendance with equal vigor.

[FeebMaster]

172. An earlier era?

I'm opposed to compulsory school attendance now. I'm opposed to compulsory anything. You can keep your public service, I was raised to live free.

[mobuto]

177. Well, that puts you at odds with the overwhelming

majority of people everywhere. Compulsory school attendance has increased freedom - because without education how can you know what freedoms exist and what their value is? I subscribe to the Jeffersonian ideal of an educated, active citizen population.

I'm not sure what ideal you subscribe to - the Unabomber's?

[FeebMaster]

179. It's a hard life.

I'm not sure how compulsory school attendance has increased freedom or the level of education for that matter. I'm not against education, not by a long shot. I'm just against compulsory education.

"I'm not sure what ideal you subscribe to - the Unabomber's?"

Yes, I idolize the unabomber, that's why I'm posting on an internet discussion board. :eyes:

[sangh0]

181. Too bad

But liberals and Democrats disagree with you on compulsory ed. Maybe you should consider an alternative party?

[FeebMaster]

183. Which one?

I'm sure there are some liberals and Democrats that agree with me.

[sangh0]

184. Name one

Dem or liberal that agrees with you

[FeebMaster]

186. Why?

I doubt there are any elected officials of any party who agree with me. There are a lot Democrats and liberals on DU though, and I'm sure at least a couple of them agree with me.

[sangh0]

189. Name one

person on DU that agrees with you if you so sure

[FeebMaster]

194. No.

I don't keep track of all 40,698 registered duers so I can't name one. Even if no one on DU agrees with me does it make my opinions any less valid?

[sangh0]

201. Then how can you be certain?

Not one DUer agrees with you. Enjoy your stay

Even if no one on DU agrees with me does it make my opinions any less valid?

Yes, it does.

[FeebMaster]

203. Oh no!

Maybe no one on DU agrees with me on this issue! Oh what a world!

"Not one DUer agrees with you. Enjoy your stay"

I will.


"Even if no one on DU agrees with me does it make my opinions any less valid?"

"Yes, it does."

Well gee, maybe I should change my opinions to agree with everyone else then.

[sangh0]

209. Nope

but maybe you should find one person who agrees with you, and maybe you should tell the truth about what you're certain about.

[FeebMaster]

210. Why should I find someone who agrees with me?

I don't see that it matters if anyone else agrees with me. With 40,702 people on DU, I just think it's likely that there is at least one other person who does. I'm certainly not going to seek them out for your entertainment.

[gate of the sun]

243. I agree with you

and thanks for speaking up for the rest of us freedom lovers.

[GreenArrow]

248. I agree with you too

and furthermore, even if you were the only one holding your opinion, it would still be valid.

[FeebMaster]

250. Our numbers grow by the second!

Soon we will be invincible!

[hedgetrimmer]

287. I agree with the FeebMaster...

[FeebMaster]

288. I think we might outnumber

the slavery is freedom crowd now.

[FeebMaster]

215. There you go.

Someone agrees with me. Is my (or is it our now) opinion more valid now?

[latebloomer]

223. I agree with you too!

I don't think education should be compulsory. I think it often is a mechanism that the state use to make everyone into good little cogs. You can get a hell of a lot more educated outside a classroom than inside one!

[goobergunch]

212. "Goobergunch" (n/t)

[DoNotRefill]

211. I agree with you

So "we" is appropriate.

[gate of the sun]

241. Yes it is

very disturbing thanks for putting in so well. I feel sick to my stomach and it's not just Kerry's purposal but some of the people here on Du, I am appalled.

[mikehiggins]

147. Sounds like an out-of-touch Yankee elitist scheme to me.

That sort of stuff goes on everywhere in this country, every day of the week. People who don't understand that have no business "speaking" for the common man.

A kid working at McDonald's to make money to stay in school will have to "satisfy" some bureacratic standard or other to be exempt from this kind of crap. We allready know how well THAT sort of stuff works out.

This whole scheme should be scrapped and reworked from the bottom up.

And maybe, you might involve some of those people at the bottom in doing it. God knows they couldn't come up with anything sillier.

[mobuto]

265. Tom DeLay is that you?

Yankee elitists? I'm amazed you didn't attack latte drinking, Volvo driving pointy-headed intellectuals, while you were at it. Just what crowd do you think you're preaching to there, buddy?

[DoNotRefill]

267. If the Democratic party....

is composed only of "latte drinking, Volvo driving pointy-headed intellectuals", then it's doomed to defeat. There simply aren't enough of them to do anything politically on a national scale.

And here I thought the Democratic party was the party of civil rights and a fair deal for blue collar working folks....not a party of the elite. Of course, considering how the grassroots have been told to "piss off, we, the elite, know better than you", I may be wrong.

[mobuto]

300. Of course the Democratic Party

isn't composed only of latte drinking Volvo-driving pointy-headed intellectuals, I was simply suggesting that one absurd Republican stereotype might follow others. And for a Democrat, or at least a self-proclaimed one, to adopt that same rhetoric seems quite bizarre. I for one don't believe its necessary to attack "Yankees" in order to get a fair deal for blue collar working folks. In fact, many of the "Yankees" I know are blue collar working folks themselves.

[mikehiggins]

269. Well, buddy, maybe I'm preaching to the freedom and individual

rights crowd. Probably a couple of folks around that don't think it is really neat to force people to "volunteer" for things.

Compulsory volunteerism is a concept fully worthy of Orwell.

So is making language verboten. If I think Kerry is a Yankee elitist is it your position that I should be gagged, and denied the freedom to say just that? How about dilletante (which I probably misspelled) or Washington insider or any number of other things.

Are we supposed to now anoint the feet of our savior because he has managed to win most of the votes in the Democratic primary?

Shall we cast out those who do not sing the praises of the chosen one?

Makes me wonder who actually does resemble Tom Delay around here.

[mobuto]

298. Seems more like the anti-Government libertarian crowd

If that's your position, that's fine. Its just not consistent with the core values of the Democratic Party, which values public service and believes that government can be a positive force for change.

If I think Kerry is a Yankee elitist is it your position that I should be gagged, and denied the freedom to say just that

No I think you can say whatever the hell you want. But I think it is shameful and unbecoming for you to adopt regionalist resentments more suited to Republicans of the lowest standing. We are a National party and you just make yourself look silly harping on about "Yankees" and "elitists." Just out of curiosity, what exactly is an elitist and where might I find one?

Are we supposed to now anoint the feet of our savior because he has managed to win most of the votes in the Democratic primary?

I'm afraid I don't understand you. I don't expect you to do anything. Yes I expect Democrats to support the Democratic candidate. You can choose to include yourself as a Democrat or not - I really don't care - and I'm certainly not going to tell you what to do.

[DoNotRefill]

303. heh...

"Its just not consistent with the core values of the Democratic Party, which values public service and believes that government can be a positive force for change."

Where have ANY of us said that we disagree with this? I value public service. I don't think it should be mandatory. I believe that the government can be a force for positive change. I don't believe that a positive change can come from trampling on our civil liberties.

"We are a National party and you just make yourself look silly harping on about "Yankees" and "elitists." Just out of curiosity, what exactly is an elitist and where might I find one?"

REALLY? We ARE a National party??? Then why doesn't the party recognize that values which are acceptable in the Northeast are NOT acceptable in much of the rest of the country? Take, for example, gun control. Popular in parts of the Northeast and California, dreadfully UNPOPULAR even among many Democrats in much of the rest of the country. So why is it in the platform? Because the anti-gun lunatic fringe people INSIST on it, and don't give a shit what the rest of the country thinks about it.

My definition of "elitists" are people who have enough education to think that they know what is good for the rest of us, and loudly tell us what we want, even when we don't want it. They think that because they're supposedly "smarter" (or richer, or come from so-called "better" families) than we are, they can tell us what to do "for our own good", and make it stick despite the fact that we want no part of it. FUCK THAT NOISE.

[mobuto]

307. Again, your regionalist biases are unbecoming

Take, for example, gun control.

Gallup Poll. Jan. 12-15, 2004. N=1,004 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"Would you like to see gun laws in this country made more strict, less strict, or remain as they are?"

More Strict / Less Strict / Remain As Are / No Opinion
% % % %
1/04 / 53 / 12 / 34 / 1
1/03 / 51 / 15 / 33 / 1
1/02 / 53 / 14 / 32 / 1
1/01 / 54 / 14 / 31 / 1

If I'm reading this poll correctly, 87% of Americans want gun laws that are as strong or stronger than the ones already on the books. You think they're all huddled in New England?

Because the anti-gun lunatic fringe people INSIST on it, and don't give a shit what the rest of the country thinks about it.

Who are you calling lunatic fringe, buddy? Do you still not support compulsory education? Maybe we could repeal child labor laws while we're at it - after all, isn't it wrong to deny ten year olds their God-given rights to work in coal mines?

My definition of "elitists" are people who have enough education to think that they know what is good for the rest of us, and loudly tell us what we want, even when we don't want it.

So who are these people? Where are they? Are they elected politicians? If so, why don't you elect people who agree with you?

They think that because they're supposedly "smarter" (or richer, or come from so-called "better" families) than we are, they can tell us what to do "for our own good", and make it stick despite the fact that we want no part of it.

Is that really what "they" (you still haven't told me exactly who they are, but putting that aside) tell you, or what you tell yourself?

[DoNotRefill]

315. heh....

"If I'm reading this poll correctly, 87% of Americans want gun laws that are as strong or stronger than the ones already on the books."

You might want to look at biases in the poll. If only 15% of the population is against gun control, then why do we keep getting our asses handed to us in elections over it?

"Who are you calling lunatic fringe, buddy?"

The fine folks at HCI and the VPC. You can throw the MMM'ers in there too, at least the ones not in jail for committing attempted murder with a handgun....I never did get that....why would an organizer of the MMM take a handgun and bust a cap in somebody? I thought they were AGAINST gun violence... And I'm still not convinced that HCI isn't just a Repub false flag operation...because I can't think of ANY other group that's done more damage to Democrats than they have. Couple that with their close ties to previous Republican administrations, and I have to wonder about motivation...

"So who are these people? Where are they? Are they elected politicians?"

They're all over the place. From my personal experience, most of the ones I've known tend to be from the Northeast, from "good" families with political connections, and with higher degrees than their intellegence and work really merits, gained because of WHO they are, rather than WHAT they are. They're kind of like pornography..."I know them when I see them."

"Is that really what "they" (you still haven't told me exactly who they are, but putting that aside) tell you, or what you tell yourself?"

I have had some of the stupider ones tell me this directly. During my three years of postgrad work, I came across a fair number of them. I was active in campus life at that point, writing articles for the paper, doing protests, and organizing things like Constitutional issues and National Security discussion groups and seminars, et cetera. Some were informal (a bunch of us meeting in the commons or an empty classroom or taking over the cafeteria), and some were quite formal, some involving US Senators and Representatives as guest speakers for the panels, in addition to the usual crowd, law professors and pundits, et cetera. So yeah, I've come by my definitions by interacting with them, not just by dreaming it up.

[mobuto]

316. Um

You might want to look at biases in the poll. If only 15% of the population is against gun control, then why do we keep getting our asses handed to us in elections over it?

Who says we are? That's what you say - yet you can't back it up. I'm citing a Gallup Poll - straightforward and perfectly realiable. 53% of Americans want stronger gun laws, and almost all of the rest want gun laws to remain as they are. Virtually nobody wants fewer gun laws.

They're kind of like pornography..."I know them when I see them."

So who are they?

[DoNotRefill]

320. Bill Clinton and Donna Brazile have both stated....

that we've had our asses handed to us over that issue. They didn't use those exact words, but Clinton said so during one of his SOTU addresses (1996, IIRC, where he went on about how the Brady Bill and AW ban cost us seats in congress) and Brazile said something to the effect that gun control cost Gore a couple of states, which would have made Florida irrelevant.

[mobuto]

347. The 1996 State of the Union Address

This is all Clinton said on gun control:

The Brady Bill has already stopped 44,000 people with criminal records from buying guns. The assault weapons ban is keeping 19 kinds of assault weapons out of the hands of violent gangs. I challenge the Congress to keep those laws on the books.

Source: http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/bc42/speeches/sud96wjc.htm

Of course Clinton was absolutely right. Gun control works. I realize some pundits argue that it isn't a winning issue for us. They're wrong.

[DoNotRefill]

364. oops, my bad. It was 1995, and here's what he said:

http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/bc42/speeches/sup95wjc.htm

"Secondly, the last Congress passed the Brady Bill and the ban on nineteen assault weapons. I think everybody in this room knows that several members of the last Congress who voted for the assault weapons ban and the Brady Bill lost their seats because of it. "

[mikehiggins]

309. That definition of "elitist" works from where I stand also n/t

[JVS]

274. As a Yankee, I denounce thie infernal scheme.

Please don't blame us all for the actions of a few misguided folks.

[MAlibdem]

137. Or maybe some jobs aren't worth paying for/nobody has the money

to pay for them to get done. Like paying people to tutor low-income students.

For example, in our state the Governor called for volunteers to help 8th graders take the MCAS (state-wide test, graduation requirement in 10th grade). Almost no one signed up. But if we made high school seniors/juniors teach them, we could get a job done that needs to be done that there is no money for.

Or make us (13-17 y/os) clean up trash, or build houses for the homeless, or whatever. Those are jobs which have demand but no profitability (at least to do them well), so MAKE kids do it and TEACH them character.

Why are you so cynical? It's bugging me.

[JVS]

276. Who's being cynical here?

Nobody wants to do it so let's force kids to. That doesn't seem cynical at all to you?

[MAlibdem]

362. not really

the fact that society gets a service from having kids learn a lesson about hard work is almost secondary. Just getting the experience, and understanding the what it means to do quality work is as, if not more, important.

[curse10]

193. I went to school full time, worked 30 hours a week and volunteered

because it was a graduation requirement. It's not unheard of and it is a freqent requirement for graduation all across the states. You'd be surpised how much you can fit into a schedule if you try. It's not hard labor we are talking about here.

[DoNotRefill]

240. So because you did it....

everybody MUST do it?

Good to know you know what's best for everybody....

[MurikanDemocrat]

3. Mandatory service CREATES jobs

and it doesn't say it's unpaid. That would be community service.

[WitchWay]

5. What does this mean, then?

As part of his 100 day plan to change America, John Kerry will propose a comprehensive service plan that includes requiring mandatory service for high school students and four years of college tuition in exchange for two years of national service.

It doesn't say paid, either.

This is about requiring mandatory 'voluntary' service as a requisite for graduation.

Mandatory service doesn't create JOBS. Jobs pay, and pay minimum wage. It is about doing work with free student labor. That free student labor might harm jobs that otherwise (without free labor) would pay money.

[MurikanDemocrat]

6. You are making this up.

The two years of national service is after high school for the four years of college tuition. The high school mandatory service is community service.

National Service, like the Armed Services, CREATES jobs.

Community service covers VOLUNTEER services that are NEVER paid. This has been going on in High Schools for several years now as a requirement for graduation - successfully.

I'm not going to argue with you. If you think it's otherwise - prove it with some documentation.

And be honest, you are going to mischaracterize any plan on any topic Kerry comes up with because he is not your "chosen one". Nothing he does is going to please you.

[WitchWay]

8. what do you think I am making up?

I am extremely opposed to mandatory "community service". I don't have a problem with "voluntary" service - but not MANDATORY community service (labor). This is militaristic, and is a program more reminiscent of a communist/fascist regime. The soviet union MANDATED 'community service'.

There are some "overhead" jobs created for this program, but I would say that when there is free labor (MANDATORY "volunteer" labor) -- this is ALWAYS taking labor away from somewhere else where it is being paid, or has the potential to be paid.

(By the way the other programs, which are not "mandatory" still pay very little money with no benefits.)

No, I'm not going to provide you with "documentation" -- because I don't know what the heck you want documented? That MANDATORY community service is fascist?

I most admist that Kerry is not my "CHOSEN ONE" -- I guess that's because I'm not part of some ABB cult.

[mobuto]

28. "Potential" to be paid

But that's the point. Nobody's paying people to blaze trails or build park benches, etc. Nobody's going to be put out of work. And far from being "fascistic," service is the great leveler in democracy. Just look at Senator Kerry for an example of just that. Kerry, a Boston Brahmin, educated in Europe and at Yale, served alongside mechanics from Alabama as their equal. That kind of thing just wouldn't happen otherwise.

[WitchWay]

41. I see

So all the great public projects that the taxpayers and the free market will not fund, shall be funded instead by forced child labor. Far from taking away jobs, this creates jobs -- why, we'll need to hire thousands of new government employees to handle all the paperwork and administer discipline to keep those unruly child laborers in line.

[sangha]

45. "forced child labor" OH NO!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

These programs of "forced child labor" will be designed by the states, and if the residents don't like the programs, they can vote the designers out of state office.

High School Service Requirement
As President, John Kerry will ensure that every high school student in America performs community service as a requirement for graduation. This service will be a rite of passage for our nation’s youth and will help foster a lifetime of service. States would design service programs that meet their community and educational needs. However, John Kerry does not believe in unfunded mandates. No state would be obligated to implement a service requirement if the federal government does not live up to its obligation to fund the program.

[mikehiggins]

154. Has "Defend Kerry No Matter What" replaced ABB

as the theme of this election? Sure seems like it.

I would be embarrassed to post something like that on a board like DU.

Do you suppose we are cretins and morons? Rely on the states to set up a program, and if the states do something we don't like, vote the responsible people out?

Maybe in Bizarro World, friend, but WE know that is bull and I am fairly certain YOU know it is bull as well. Otherwise you wouldn't be likely to even show up on a board like this.

This program is full of problems. Strike it and rework it so it sounds a little more like the kind of thing you'd like to see in a free country.

Remember the words of the Prophet: Don't trust leaders, and watch the parking meters.

[gate of the sun]

247. I think you are right

I was thinking oh my god now not only do we have to vote for him we have to like and defend what ever he says. What has the world come to.

[Vas Liz]

54. Are you for real?

"Nobody's paying people to blaze trails or build park benches, etc"

Uh, right. I'll make sure to tell the construction workers building a play ground in my neighborhood they are not going to get paid. Thanks for the info mubuto, I am sure they will appreciate it.

[mobuto]

99. Look at all the parks being constructed today

and look at the parks constructed by the CCC, the WPA and by other parallel government programs in the 1930s. The numbers are simply not comperable. The benefits were enormous and exist to this day.

[DoNotRefill]

100. Ummm....mobuto......both of the programs you mentioned...

were voluntary. On top of that, the people who volunteered got paid fairly handsomly by the standards of the day.

[mobuto]

107. Got paid hansomly?

Not quite. CCC workers got paid $30/month, not exactly great wages even in the Depression. I see Kerry's proposal as a combination of the military draft and the CCC. The draft was one of the great engines of democracy - bringing people of all classes and races together on an equal footing, and involving them, even against their will, in democracy. Kerry wants to effect the same public policy goals without the national security focus.

And that's why national service makes sense. The CCC was vehemently opposed by labor unions, who said at the time that it would cost jobs. The result was the opposite. The work the CCC did was not being done by anyone else, and experienced union members were hired to oversee CCC work. The last thing John Kerry wants is to hurt organized labor - that will not be the outcome of this effort.

[DoNotRefill]

109. Compared to farming in the dust bowl....

the compensation was handsome.

I don't see training people to kill against their will as "involving them....in democracy."

[mobuto]

111. You don't

but talk to people who served and you will. In no other context would the son of a mechanic work alongside the son of a Boston Brahmin as an equal. That kind of thing happened all the time. A good friend of mine had been preparing to get his Ph.D. when he was drafted and according to him he learned more from high school dropouts he served alongside than from anybody else ever in his life. To this day, they remain the closest friends despite the most pronounced differences in class, education, race, income, location, etc.

And Kerry isn't even talking about training people to kill. He's talking about blazing trails and building park benches and such, so again, your point is moot.

[mikehiggins]

155. My dad built parks in the CCC and $30 a month was good money

during the Depression. The CCC was vehemently opposed by the GOP and FDR got the union's support by making sure that the work done was on projects that didn't cut the legs out from under them. That was politics. The CCC was voluntary as long as it lasted.

As to the craft and the concept of "involving them, even against their will, in democracy." What is wrong with you people? Do you really think you can FORCE people to be free? Was there some Star Trek episode I missed that made that seem sensible?

There are over 500 dead Americans in Iraq who were involved in Bush's fantasy of FORCING people to be free, and the number rises daily. Do you think this stuff is different because Kerry's name is at the bottom of the page and not Dubya's?

[mobuto]

165. So Kerry's National Service = 500 dead Americans?

Exactly who is harmed by this?

[mikehiggins]

263. Who is harmed by compulsory national service?

Anyone who believes in individual freedom, to start with.

And I didn't say what you imply in any way shape or form.

[IndianaGreen]

227. It is the will of Landru!

The Return of the Archons

The U.S.S. Enterprise is investigating Beta III, where the U.S.S. Archon disappeared over 100 years before.

When the landing party exhibits strange behavior, Kirk sends another party down to investigate. They find the culture on Beta III is quiescent, with no creative tendencies. The entire culture is controlled by a group of 'lawgivers' known as "The Body" which is, in turn, controlled by the omniscient Landru. The inhabitants change from normal, peaceful people to a violent mob at the coming of the Red Hour. This 'Festival' is the society's only outlet for the tyrannical hold that Landru has over them at all other times.

Meanwhile, the U.S.S. Enterprise is being pulled from its orbit, its crew to be absorbed into the Body. This, they discover, is what happened to the U.S.S. Archon, so many years before.

Archon survivors have formed an underground of sorts to fight the Body, and they help Kirk and Spock reach Landru. Landru turns out to be an incredibly complex computer built by Landru, a scientist who lived 6,000 years before, who wanted to guide his people into a peaceful, civilized progress.

http://www.starfleetlibrary.com/tos/tos1/return_of_the_archons.htm

[mikehiggins]

262. Damn! I knew it was trekkish! n/t

[goobergunch]

213. You can't involve people in democracy against their will.

Democracy includes the right to apathy, IMHO.

[MAlibdem]

233. you can if they're minors

you can do whatever the hell you want with them

[DoNotRefill]

245. really? So child sodomy is OK?

you did say ANYTHING... ;)

[JVS]

255. That's just a fabulous line of reasoning

:eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

259. What about the parents's opinion?

Don't they count either? Should we all bow down in submission to the New Patriotic Federal Government.

If Ashcroft or Rumsfeld had made this proposal, Carville and Begala would be calling for their impeachment.

I can't hardly wait for the New Patriotic loyalty oaths...

[MAlibdem]

359. parents opinion is reflected in voting

the old saying is "children are our future"...they aren't if you don't teach them anything, don't show them what hardwork means. You think we'd have as many corrupt CEOs if they had the experience of working hard in manual labor for a year or two...i dont.

Shared labor or shared pain creates empathy and common bonds between people, bonds that unite so that people care more for each other, something that can be reflected in politics and public policy.

[JVS]

254. $30 in 1934 would be $401.18 today.

Not much, but certainly not the same as "free labor"
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/infl.cgi

[JVS]

251. The whole point of those programs was to PAY people.

Not to wring some kind of free community service Subotnik out of them.

[MAlibdem]

143. whoo thar killa

so now JK is a communist AND a fascist? Won't this be an exciting news day.

Some jobs wont get done. Some jobs need to be done but cannot be paid for by the government because repukes won't fund them.

I'd like documentation linking mandatory community service with unemployment...

[DoNotRefill]

15. Except, of course...

"This has been going on in High Schools for several years now as a requirement for graduation - successfully."

for the people who refuse to serve as indentured servants, and consequently don't graduate.

Forced community service has always been a punishment administered by the Courts. What did high schoolers do to deserve to be punished?

[sangha]

46. "indentured servants"? EGADS AIYEEE!

High School Service Requirement
As President, John Kerry will ensure that every high school student in America performs community service as a requirement for graduation. This service will be a rite of passage for our nation’s youth and will help foster a lifetime of service. States would design service programs that meet their community and educational needs. However, John Kerry does not believe in unfunded mandates. No state would be obligated to implement a service requirement if the federal government does not live up to its obligation to fund the program.

You must really hate parents if you think that they are going to vote for state officials who force their children into indentured servantry

[MAlibdem]

367. Because the punishment is meant to teach them something

Forced community service has always been a punishment administered by the Courts. What did high schoolers do to deserve to be punished?

Usually it's administered as a part of REHABILITATION, one of those weird "progressive" lines of thought. It's role is teaching kids about hard work, about getting stuff done and valuing their contributions to society. It works.

[DoNotRefill]

369. That's odd...

Around here, it's seen as punishment because it forces people to engage in demeaning conduct in sight of their peers. In short, it's meant to discourage bad behavior by embarrasing people who commit minor crimes.

If you think our criminal justice system is in any way about rehabilitation, you haven't spent much time dealing with it....

[mikehiggins]

151. Do you honestly think we oppose this plan because it's Kerry's?

Let the kids "opt out" and go from there. Give the kids who "opt in" financial help towards college or technical training, and leave the rest alone.

As to this idea that "community service programs" in high schools are "successful" I suggest you talk to the kids and the teachers. Most of the honest ones will tell you its a big scam put on to impress outsiders.

And what it teaches is lying and deceit, which might be good things to know in the America things like these programs seem intent on building.

[sangh0]

178. We?

Exactly how many people are you speaking for?

[mikehiggins]

266. I don't know. Why don't you count the above posts for a starter.

I know! We could commission a poll. We could ask people what they thought about making other people do stuff like compulsory volunteer service. We could call it "an election" and see how many people want something like that when they realise it could apply to them as well.

Might be interesting to see how many people are happy to give away other people's freedoms.

[FeebMaster]

268. Interesting,

or sickening.

[JVS]

192. I will not support the introduction of Subotnik for kids!

[MurikanDemocrat]

13. kick

[DoNotRefill]

16. What's the difference between mandatory service...

and conscription?

[sangha]

21. This

"High School Service Requirement

As President, John Kerry will ensure that every high school student in America performs community service as a requirement for graduation. This service will be a rite of passage for our nation’s youth and will help foster a lifetime of service. States would design service programs that meet their community and educational needs. However, John Kerry does not believe in unfunded mandates. No state would be obligated to implement a service requirement if the federal government does not live up to its obligation to fund the program"

The last time I looked, the states didn't design the draft.

[DoNotRefill]

30. Under Kerry's plan....

The States would DESIGN the programs, but it would be a Federally mandated service.

There are correlaries with the Military, specifically the National Guard. The States have input (and can take command of units within their respective states to put down riots or for disaster relief) but it's still a Federal Beastie.

[sangha]

85. More disingenousness

Under Kerry's plan, the Feds CAN'T take over the programs.

Try again. Next time, try and use the Nazis again. I find those arguments funny.

[DoNotRefill]

88. Support that.

"Under Kerry's plan, the Feds CAN'T take over the programs."

If the Federal Government controls the purse strings, how can they NOT have control over it?

[sangh0]

103. Your lack of knowledge is not a persuasive argument

but the Feds control the money for all sorts of programs without controlling those programs. CHIPS is run by the states while it receives money from the Feds

[DoNotRefill]

106. Uh huh....

like highway funding comes without strings attached....like the maximum speed limits and mandatory .08 BAC limits... "don't do as we say, and we'll pull your funding..." Nope, no strings attached there....

[sangh0]

114. Highway funding is a conscription program?

Since when?

Look at the posts you are responding to. This string of posts started as a result of your claiming that this was like conscription. How is Fed funding for highways the same as a draft?

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

118. Wrong. You compared Kerry's proposal to conscription

and you even started another thread to promote the idea. Now you want to pretend that your argument has nothing to do with conscription.

[IndianaGreen]

17. Smells like a totalitarian regime, particularly the high school part

every high school student in America performs community service as a requirement for graduation.

The only way to enforce this is by federalizing local schools and having federal bureaucrats running around sticking their noses into local matters. It is bad enough that NCLB has military recruiters badgering kids into enlisting in the military, without any parental input.

This reeks of totalitarianism!

[MurikanDemocrat]

18. Community Service has been a part of High School requirements

in many communities for many, many, many years now already. This is nothing new.

This is not Gestapo training, or military service for children, it's community service, as in local volunteer services in the community.

I don't know why people have their boxers and panties in such a wad over this. It's been routine for years.

[IndianaGreen]

19. This is Gestapo tactics when you have the feds subverting local schools

What's the point of electing local school boards when some federal bureaucrat is going to dictate to us what our graduation standards ought to be.

It makes no difference whether the candidate has an "R" or "D" after their name, if they try to subvert local and state control of our schools they are no better than Mussolini's black shirts!

[sangha]

22. I knew someone would mention Hitler!

High School Service Requirement

"As President, John Kerry will ensure that every high school student in America performs community service as a requirement for graduation. This service will be a rite of passage for our nation’s youth and will help foster a lifetime of service. States would design service programs that meet their community and educational needs. However, John Kerry does not believe in unfunded mandates. No state would be obligated to implement a service requirement if the federal government does not live up to its obligation to fund the program"

Yep, Hitler was well-known for how he decentralized power towards the German states through state-designed community service programs. Fascists throughout history are known for abhoring centralized control!

[MurikanDemocrat]

23. Good catch!

[sangha]

24. I had personal experience

with a Bavarian youth quilting circle. I can never forget, no matter how hard I try :cry:

[DoNotRefill]

32. Were you in the HitlerJugend?

This isn't meant as a flame, I'm just curious, since your description of a "Bavarian youth quilting circle" seems to imply that you were....

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoNotRefill]

52. then please explain your bavarian youth quilting circle comment...

eom

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DoNotRefill]

90. Nope...just hoping you'd explain your previous statement.....

about the "Bavarian youth quilting group".

Is that too much to ask?

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gate of the sun]

377. What is the deal with the bavarian youth quilting circle? Hitler? Hmmmm

[curse10]

195. Gestapo! Skulls and Bones! The Sky is Fucking Falling!

Jesus H. Christ.

[DoNotRefill]

31. Isn't involuntary community service...

normally reserved as a punishment delivered by the courts for criminal infractions?

[curse10]

197. Not everyone in this world views community service as punishment

some people, like myself, do it because we want to. :eyes:

[FeebMaster]

198. Then by all means, do it.

Doing it because you want to is different than being forced to do it.

[curse10]

205. I did it because I was forced to, during HS it was a requirement

I just learned a lot from the experience and do it now on my own volition.

[DoNotRefill]

214. Ummm....

I don't view VOLUNTARY community service as punishment. It's the whole "involuntary" bit that's punishment.

BTW, how'd the PETA/Nutcracker thing work out?

[curse10]

221. see post #205

and I'm currently required to do a form of community service to get my law degree. I am doing a community lawyering project which gets five hours of probono work from me every week and I have to do an internship with a public service focus, unpaid. I'm not complaining.

[DoNotRefill]

224. Ahhhhhhh.....

doing legal pro bono work and an internship in your field serves the educational purpose of giving you real-life experience doing things you'll do once you get out of school, yes? It's a way of turning academic knowledge into practical knowledge. As such, it has academic merit. It will make you a better lawyer, at least in theory.

How is putting kids on the side of the highway picking up litter helping to train them for their future employment?

[curse10]

226. the only one saying anything about picking up trash is you

community service can be anything from reading to a blind person to organizing a food drive for a local shelter. It can be designed to what a kid wants to do. And if a kid wants to pick up trash in the park then they have a right to do that to.

[DoNotRefill]

230. Uh huh....

"And if a kid wants to pick up trash in the park then they have a right to do that to."

You're right. If that's what they WANT to do, they have a right to do it. But what happens when they have no other options, and that's the only thing they can realistically be able to do to satisfy their sentence....uh, I mean their requirement?

Everybody doesn't have the option of going to a good high school, college, and post-graduate school. Some people don't have the best opportunities presented to them, and have to get by on what they have. And some people don't get the chance to be "uber-rich", even by marrying well or by being in Skull and Bones. Some of us have actually had to work to get where we are, and haven't had the benefits of a trust fund or powerful friends and relatives. We're not all part of the "beautiful people" who get things handed to us on a silver platter. Consequently, some of us take offense at people telling us what we MUST do, especially when they have no clue what we've gone through or are going through in the course of our everyday life. It goes past the point of being simply condescending, to the point of being insulting.

[curse10]

234. Wow, another community service=prison sentence metaphor

that's good. The high level of rhetoric doesn't get you anywhere. It's a fucking community service program, not the end of the world. If it gets implemented then sue the federal government. It can then be decided if it's constitutional.

And, as someone who has worked very hard to get where she is, on top of doing community service since she was 13, I personally take offense at your attitude towards community service. I was forced to do community service. And I hated the idea at first. But it has made me a better person, with exposure to a spectrum of experiences through community service.

[DoNotRefill]

244. "adversity builds character".

thanks, but I'll build my own character (and the character of my child) without the government dictating additional adversity.

My child will NOT participate in a mandatory community service program, regardless of what kind of law they pass to make it mandatory as long as I am a free man. If the kid WANTS to volunteer, fine, but compulsory community service isn't gonna happen to my child.

In the Antebellum South, there were slavery apologists who said that slavery was for the good of the people involved, even the slaves. It was a bullshit argument then, and it still is now.

[curse10]

252. Putting words in my mouth and more rhetoric

now community service equals slavery! Nice! :eyes:

[DoNotRefill]

253. what else would you call...

mandatory work done without compensation and against the will of the person forced to do it?

Would you prefer the term "indentured servitude"? Because it ain't what's called "freedom"....

[JVS]

271. It will train them for when they grow up and get put in jail.

America is proud of it's world-leading incarceration rates!

[goobergunch]

216. So?

We have "Christian Service" at my (private) school. It's widely considered a waste of time and nobody actually wants to do it. I don't think anybody (at my school, anyway) really gains from it.

[GH0ST]

39. Stinks like totalitarianism

Mandatory means mandatory. No matter how you slice it, it's slavery. If there's some pay, slaves and serfs get "paid" too. But where does Kerry say they'll be paid? the "pay" is the diploma you used to get without mandatory service.
I will vote for Kerry but I am not blindly for whatever he proposes. This is forced labor, it's fascism.

[mobuto]

25. Kerry's absolutely right

This will create a New American Patriotism (with apologies to the Genearl from Arkansas) - by involving young people in government, it will erase the distance they perceive and help end pervasive apathy. National service is the great leveler in a democracy.

[IndianaGreen]

27. You want patriotism? Create a society in which everyone has a stake in it!

Our society is one in which the children of the working class are the ones that have to sacrifice for the benefit of the elites.

For my part, I believe in Emma Goldman's characterization of patriotism:

Patriotism, a Menace to Liberty
by Emma Goldman, 1911

WHAT is patriotism? Is it love of one's birthplace, the place of childhood's recollections and hopes, dreams and aspirations ? Is it the place where, in childlike naivete, we would watch the fleeting clouds, and wonder why we, too, could not run so swiftly? The place where we would count the milliard glittering stars, terror-stricken lest each one "an eye should be," piercing the very depths of our little souls? Is it the place where we would listen to the music of the birds, and long to have wings to fly, even as they, to distant lands? Or the place where we would sit at mother's knee, enraptured by wonderful tales of great deeds and conquests ? In short, is it love for the spot, every inch representing dear and precious recollections of a happy, joyous, and playful childhood?
If that were patriotism, few American men of today could be called upon to be patriotic, since the place of play has been turned into factory, mill, and mine, while deafening sounds of machinery have replaced the music of the birds. Nor can we longer hear the tales of great deeds, for the stories our mothers tell today are but those of sorrow, tears, and grief.

What, then, is patriotism? "Patriotism, sir, is the last resort of scoundrels," said Dr. Johnson. Leo Tolstoy, the greatest anti-patriot of our times, defines patriotism as the principle that will justify the training of wholesale murderers; a trade that requires better equipment for the exercise of man-killing than the making of such necessities of life as shoes, clothing, and houses; a trade that guarantees better returns and greater glory than that of the average workingman.

Gustave Herve, another great anti-patriot, justly calls patriotism a superstitionHone far more injurious, brutal, and inhumane than religion. The superstition of religion originated in man's inability to explain natural phenomena. That is, when primitive man heard thunder or saw the lightning, he could not account for either, and therefore concluded that back of them must be a force greater than himself. Similarly he saw a supernatural force in the rain, and in the various other changes in nature. Patriotism, on the other hand, is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit.

http://www.connix.com/~harry/emma.htm

[mobuto]

29. With all due respect to you and Emma Goldman,

patriotism is a good thing. The word means "for ones country," the idea that there are greater ends than one's own, that we all share civic responsibilities. It is not the same thing as nationalism, which I oppose.


Our society is one in which the children of the working class are the ones that have to sacrifice for the benefit of the elites.

I couldn't agree more. Look who serves in the military today - its not the sons of Boston Brahmins, its the working class. National service is the great leveler - it sends everybody to work together. Rich and poor, black and white - and it makes everybody a stakeholder in democracy.

[corporatewhore]

65. Emma Goldman Rocks! i like this defention of Patriotism from the american

heretics dictionary
PATRIOTISM, n. 1) The inability to distinguish between the government and one's "country"; 2) A highly praiseworthy virtue characterized by the desire to dominate and kill; 3) A feeling of exultation experienced when contemplating heaps of charred "enemy" corpses; 4) The first, last, and perennial refuge of scoundrels.

PATRIOT, n. A dangerous tool of the powers that be. A herd member who compensates for lack of self-respect by indentifying with an abstraction. An enemy of individual freedom. A fancier of the rich, satisfying flavor of boot leather.

-- from The American Heretic's Dictionary edited by Chaz Bufe (See Sharp Press)

[DoNotRefill]

36. So is the Draft....

does that mean we want to bring it back?

[mobuto]

37. Kerry doesn't.

But I do.

[GreenArrow]

38. "...absolutely right"

This will create a New Amerikan Patriotism (with apologies to der Commandant from Arkansas) - by involving young people in government, it will erase the distance they perceive and help end pervasive apathy. Mandatory national service is the great leveler in a democracy. Amerika Uber Alles!

[mobuto]

98. So you're basically calling Wes Clark and John Kerry Nazis

Words cannot communicate how childish and irresponsible that sounds.

[GreenArrow]

132. I don't think they're "Nazis"

per se, but I do think this proposal and the general air in the country right now have a pronounced fascist stink to them.

http://www.adbusters.org/magazine/49/articles/is_america_becoming_fascis.html

"If we look at historian Stanley Payne’s classical general theory of fascism, we are struck by the increasing similarities with the American model:

A. The Fascist Negations
Anti-liberalism.
Anti-communism.
Anti-conservatism.

B. Ideology and Goals
Creation of a new nationalist authoritarian state.
Organization of a new kind of regulated, multi-class, integrated national economic structure.
The goal of empire.
Specific espousal of an idealist, voluntarist creed.

C. Style and Organization
Emphasis on aesthetic structure, stressing romantic and mystical aspects.
Attempted mass mobilization with militarization of political relationships and style, and the goal of a mass party militia.
Positive evaluation and use of violence.
Extreme stress on the masculine principle.
Exaltation of youth.
Specific tendency toward an authoritarian, charismatic, personal style of command."

Good article, worth reading.

[mobuto]

138. Ok, so John Kerry and Wes Clark are "fascists"

That's so much better.

[Gloria]

366. Clark's service plan was voluntary, wasn't it?

eom

[AmyStrange]

40. Thanx MD...

I personally appreciate all your "Senator Kerry on..." post. They are very helpful in getting folks to vote. Much better than harrassing folks into voting for Kerry post that everyone else is posting. And before anyone says it, I deplore harrassing Kerry supporters also. I have never knowingly done it with the intent to harrass. Anyone who even knows me a little knows that before I left the DU in August, I had never insulted one candidate or their supporters once or harrassed them.

((((HUGz)))) to all the Kerry Supporters. We have to ALL work together to get Bush and his cabal OUT.

Thanx MD
:loveya:


Dave (AmyStrange.com) Ayotte
Please, regularly check the One Missing Person (is one person too many) searchable website for the latest (and archived) missing person news stories:

http://NEWS.OneMissingPerson.org/




Serious Serial Killer discussion:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SK-Cafe/

[MurikanDemocrat]

49. Hi Dave!

They were simply meant to be informative and a proactive effort to get the positions/facts out ahead of the questions, and perhaps a change of pace to the to the bickering lately.

Who woulda thunk the already long-time practice of community service would have caused such a shit storm?? :shrug: There is a difference between instilling a sense of community and service in our youth and sending them off to dig ditches or to concentration camps for slave labor.

And it's nothing new! It's already been a requirement for many years in some High Schools!

Thanks for stopping by. :hi:

[anti-NAFTA]

42. No thanks, Mr Kerry.

I'm a senior in high school, and I completed three hours of community service (the requirement) a few months ago. Community service is basically slavery dressed up with nice language. And let's not forget that most people I know forge their hours and have huge numbers of hours on their transcripts. It's a bunch of goody-goody bullshit.

[MurikanDemocrat]

50. Poll on Community Service Requirement for High School

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x858209

According to this poll, 4 out of 10 that responded already have community service as a requirement for High School Graduation in their comunities already.

This is not a new concept. It's been a requirement for years in many communities. It's for local volunteer services.

[IndianaGreen]

51. Kerry is advocating a federal program

Just what we needed, more federal control over our lives!

Wasn't PATRIOT Act bad enough, or do we now need federal bureacrats in every school?

[MurikanDemocrat]

53. No, these would be STATE programs. Read it again.

And you always have a habit of grossly mischaracterizing anything that has anything to do with Kerry anyway.

[DoNotRefill]

57. If we're talking about STATE programs....

then why is Kerry pushing for them on a NATIONAL level in a NATIONAL election???

Why the talk of it NOT being another unfunded Federal Mandate? If the Federal government requires programs, and pays for them, then isn't it in effect a FEDERAL program being administered by the States?

[MurikanDemocrat]

59. Obviously you didn't even read it.

High School Service Requirement
As President, John Kerry will ensure that every high school student in America performs community service as a requirement for graduation. This service will be a rite of passage for our nation’s youth and will help foster a lifetime of service. States would design service programs that meet their community and educational needs. However, John Kerry does not believe in unfunded mandates. No state would be obligated to implement a service requirement if the federal government does not live up to its obligation to fund the program.

[DoNotRefill]

60. And there's no control connected to the pursestrings?

I thought that's how the Government kept the military in check...by funding them only 2 years at a time.

[MurikanDemocrat]

62. Let's cut to the chase - as long as this isn't your candidate nothing

is going to make you happy. For one thing you didn't even read it before you started slinging out complaints.

[DoNotRefill]

64. Unfortunately...

it looks like Kerry WILL be my candidate. Does that mean I should shut up and sit down and not voice my objections to proposed policies?

And I DID read it before slinging complaints...otherwise, how would I have known what to complain ABOUT???

Frankly, this whole thing strikes me as a program I'd expect from Bush, not the Democratic candidate...and the authoritarian aspect of it disturbs me GREATLY.

[FeebMaster]

66. Look on the bright side DNR.

With a little luck, the federal funding might include money for patriotism inspiring uniforms to be worn while performing the mandatory community service.

[DoNotRefill]

71. You mean something OTHER than the festive orange jumpsuits....

currently provided for most people doing "community service"?

[FeebMaster]

128. I was thinking something military like.

You know what else they need? Songs. Patriotic songs. They can sing them while working. Maybe, to teach some multiculturalism while we're at it, some of the songs can be in foreign languages, maybe German or something.

[anti-NAFTA]

208. And it sucks and it's a bunch of bullshit.

I'm one of the few people I know who've actually fulfilled the requirement without faking hours.

[Vas Liz]

55. This tears it

Kerry wants a draft, and this is how he is going to get it. Dennis asked him at the CNN debate about his 40,000 troops increase and Kerry didn't have the courage to answer him. Now I know why, and I see exactly what Dennis was getting at.

[WitchWay]

68. This makes it occur to me...

Maybe if there is a mandatory community service - they can start to gather names of students for military recruitmnent services, or for a draft. Indeed, I believe that you are correct in your concern because they can observe children in a "community service" or "work" envrionment, and use this in order to recruit. It would end up being mandatory participation in what amounts to a military recruitment program.

[DoNotRefill]

77. Why soft-step around the issue?

Military service is the highest form of service, right? Given that, who'd object to a 2 year mandatory conscription period?

[GreenArrow]

97. "Creating a New Army of Patriots"

Kind of makes ya wonder.

[JVS]

283. Mainly those who would be losing 2 years of their lives.

The little ingrate bastards ;-)

[JVS]

282. Yes. It certainly is a good way of getting all the ducks in a row

[corporatewhore]

56. I dont like that bit about not giving fed aid to schools that ban ROTC

god as if we didnt already lived in a militarized society!

[DoNotRefill]

58. Didja notice...

the bit about military service being the highest form of community service?

What two programs does Kerry's national service program remind you of? For me, it's the HitlerJugend and the Komsomol...

I don't think an indoctrinating "youth service group" is a very good idea at all, REGARDLESS of which party's propaganda is being pushed.

And if it's truly a STATE program, you can bet your ass that the programs in places like Mississippi and Alabama will be run as a Repuke indoctrination program...

[Vas Liz]

61. Bingo

"And if it's truly a STATE program, you can bet your ass that the programs in places like Mississippi and Alabama will be run as a Repuke indoctrination program..."

[DoNotRefill]

63. Also, you'll remember....

that the HitlerJugend and Komsomol were not technically MANDATORY, people were just STRONGLY encouraged to take part. If you refused to take part, you were ostracized and might have trouble getting decent work. Same deal with this program....if you refuse to participate, you don't get a high school diploma, and then your future is screwed. Hell, you can't even join the military, since they now require a HS diploma instead of a GED.

It's the same basic deal as selective service now. If you're required to sign up for it and don't, you're in a world of hurt.

[corporatewhore]

112. ditto

[curse10]

199. that's already implemented

Northeastern University reinstated the ROTC program after losing funding despite student protest.

[WitchWay]

69. Work to Welfare!

"A Summer of Service for Teenagers
Thirteen to seventeen year olds are too old for child care and too young for many summer jobs. John Kerry believes we should tap their energy and idealism through a summer of service learning. Supervised by AmeriCorps members, these young people could help out in nursing homes, clean up local areas, or teach seniors computer skills. In turn, they would receive a $500 grant to apply to their college or vocational educations down the road. Parents do not want to leave their children alone all summer but most cannot afford other means of care. The Summer of Service program would give parents peace of mind and at the same time build more responsible and dedicated young citizens and stronger, more vibrant communities."


So, let's get this straight. Poor and unpriveleged kids are going to get this great expereience of being trained for servitude ("service learning"), and these lucky little kids will get a whooping $500.00 grant to use for college later on! Well, you know poor kids are used to being poor, and they are so enthusiastic, why - they don't really need any money, anyways. But, this program is great -- because we all know that poor kids especially need to be more repsonsible and dedicated young citizens...

[DoNotRefill]

72. Not only that....

butthink of the kind of environment they'll be in...what're the rape and assault statistics for the government-operated "juvenile learning centers" out there? And who will they hire to be the guards? (oops, I mean "counselors"...)

[JVS]

285. Wow, they might be able to afford a year's worth of textbooks!

Lucky Duckies!

[WitchWay]

70. More Work to Welfare, Please...

"100,000 Older Americans in Service
As President, John Kerry will defend and strengthen vital programs such as Medicare and Social Security, but he also believes on calling on America's seniors to give their time, experience, and expertise to an America that needs their help. As President, John Kerry would create the Retired Not Tired Program. By mentoring students, helping the infirm, or working in their communities for 10 hours a week, members can earn up to $2,000 a year tax free that they can apply to an education grant for a family member or a member of their community. Alternatively, seniors will be able to use these funds to defray their own health care costs. John Kerry plans to engage 100,000 seniors a year in service in the next decade."

Yeah - older Americans sure are lazy...expecting all this medicare and social security from the governmnet but not giving anything back for it. Well, we ought to show these older Americans that they can't get away with being so "Tired" when they are retired. IF they want their health care expenses defrayed, let them do some patriotic community service.

[BruinAlum]

73. What a bunch of big cry babies!

:eyes:

There is nothing wrong with requiring community service in High School. It's no worse than requiring Physical Education or Math or the other plethora of requirements it takes to graduate.

Good Grief! It's not friggin reform school or military camps for christ sakes! It's nursing homes, day cares, food banks, parks, hospitals, things like that. It's not concentration camp slave labor like some are trying to make it out to be. God!

The sky is not falling!

[DoNotRefill]

75. When they expand it to the "highest form of service"....

and go to universal conscription, maybe you'll think differently.

A single step down that path is two steps too many.

[WitchWay]

80. Keep them all Busy...

The other requirements are educational (and I could debate about high school generally being forced labor, in general...but that's a whole other ballgame)...BUT no one should be forced to do "mandatory" service. There is no need for the federal government to start mandating this as part of public education. It's up to a person how to or whether to serve their community, not John Kerry. (Personally, I could debate the notion of mandatory requirements in education as a whole, but thats a whole new can of worms...I debate this "requirement" becuase I think its the icing on the cake, so to speak).

Oh...only for kids whose parents can't afford to do anything them with the summer, or seniors who need to defray their health care costs. If Kerry intended this to be a benevolent program why does he use language saying military service is the highest for of service, that he wants to make a "Retired not Tired" program for seniors, that he wants to creat a "new army of patriots"...wow! That's sure friendly language.

The thing is these "service" programs or work programs for children CAN and DO become dangerously close to being military camps. These sorts of programs can become rife with militarism and abusiveness. Especially when they are preying on underpriveleged and low income children, whose parents generally lack clout in a political sense. (Teenage summer of service program)...yeah, poor kids can get a $500.00 grant for college if they go into service learning. Its' funny how the kids whose parents can't afford to do anything with them over the summer get to learn how to serve. We need to prepare these kids to take their roles in our service-industry economy, after all. This is blatant classism. In the end, if you keep low-income kids "busy" with "service" -- you can argue against funding programs that are apt to be more empowering and educational.

[goobergunch]

219. Do you want my rant on requiring physical education classes?

I can give that one, if you want....

[WitchWay]

74. Creating a New Army of Patriots

"On September 11th, 2001, America experienced the most terrible and deadly attack in its history. Yet, President Bush's response was to call on Americans to wait in long lines at airports, go shopping, or wrap their windows in plastic."

Yeah, Bush is ALWAYS exploting 9/11 for his own agenda, unlike the war hero Kerry. In response to a post 9/11 world, we need to create a "New Army of Patriots"...there just isn't enough patriotism in this country. Got to get all these unpatriotic people in line...they should support the efforts of the Patriot Act and put more flags up to show their support for America. I know, lets not just have patriots...lets make an army of patriots.

[DoNotRefill]

76. ESPECIALLY....

if we disarm the unpatriotic at the same time....

"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA. Ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State." -Heinrich Himmler


Service to the State!!!

:shrug:

[DoNotRefill]

78. If Goerge W. Bush suggested Kerry's plan, word for word....

EVERYBODY here would be bellowing like branded cattle. If it's a shitty idea under Bush, it's a shitty idea under ANYBODY.

Go figure...

[WitchWay]

81. I agree 100%

you couldn't have said it any better...

[IndianaGreen]

83. You are right, if Bush had proposed this we would have every Democrat

screaming bloody murder. The fact that Kerry proposed it, gives it an imprimatur that is readily and unquestionably accepted by the ABB-while-wearing-blinders crowd.

Being ABB doesn't mean that one must suspend critical thinking, or that one must embrace the trappings of dictatorship just because it didn't come from Bush.

I am sure that my Libertarian friends would cringe at Kerry's proposal to regimentize and militarize American youth as much as they did at Bush's PATRIOT Act.

[sangha]

87. What a ridiculous argument

Maybe you haven't noticed, but Bush* hasn't proposed a program like this. The fact you have to rely on events that haven't happened to defend your point shows how weak it is.

This argument is even weaker than your Nazi references. At least there really were Nazis.

[WitchWay]

91. Yep

The fact that Bush hasn't proposed a program quite like that really makes you start to wonder about Kerry's ability to get those "swing" voters and independents -- they're going to be just thrilled about Kerry's ideas on National service, aren't they?

[gate of the sun]

376. this is a ridiculous rebuttal

http://www.nationalservice.org/news/pr/022704.htm

bush had the audacity to consider it a volunteer service. Can you believe that? How dare he? Don't get me work we know bush is a Nazi pig. I don't know what this means about Kerry..I guess I will leave that up to you to decide.

[Vas Liz]

206. Never forget

There are sheep in EVERY party.

[JVS]

290. Not every Democrat would be screaming bloody murder.

I am sure many of our senators would vote for it and then explain later that they really wanted it to be a better thing than it turned out to be under Bush.

[Monte Carlo]

92. But he didn't did he? Context modifies everything.

This is not Bush talking about his cause-for-the-week. This is Kerry trying to get people involved with their country again. If FDR proposed it, we'd be talking about it now as part of the New Deal.

[DoNotRefill]

93. IIRC....Roosevelt's CCC and WPA.....

were voluntary programs.

[WitchWay]

235. Yeah, but...

Didn't they actually PAY people?

[Vas Liz]

207. This is some nice theory Mr. Chomsky

Would go really well in a college campus. Let's see how well it goes with middle america.

[dawn]

163. Actually, I'd be very surprised if Bush* suggested any of this.

Could you really see him wanting to expand the Peace Corps?

[seaglass]

94. I have fond memories of volunteering for 4 weeks every

summer at a local camp for mentally and physically handicapped kids. At the time, it was the cool thing to do and a lot of my friends worked at the camp with me. I learned a lot, I was still able to babysit to attain some income and had plenty of free time to hang out with my friends.

I look forward to coordination between the schools and the community for volunteer opportunities for High Schoolers. Both of my kids will be participating in community service.

We are not wealthy and if I really had my eye on the dollar and college expenses etc., I should have them focus on full time employment but I believe a very different and valuable experience can be gained by giving of yourself without financial compensation.

The company I used to work for had an annual manager's meeting and a part of that 3 day meeting was participating in a community project at the location the meeting was held. In San Antonio, we installed a sprinkler system in a park, in Phoenix we prepared school packages for underprivileged kids.

Participation was mandatory for all levels of management. There are lots of things in life that are mandatory, whether they are requirements in school or in the workplace. I see nothing but good coming from this.

[DoNotRefill]

96. Ummmm..."mandatory"....

in the context of employment is quite different from "mandatory" when it comes to federal regulations. The most "mandatory" employment duty can be gotten out of simply by quitting your job. The only way I know to get out of a truly "mandatory" government obligation is to renounce your citizenship and leave the country. Even so, they may well try to get you back to throw your butt in jail (as they do for people who desert from the military)

[seaglass]

101. Yep, you can quit your job and you can quit school.

Both could be stupid. I didn't see anything about having to renounce citizenship if you don't participate in community service.

[DoNotRefill]

105. Why is there public school?

It's because the people have a right to an education. Putting conditions on the exercise of rights strikes me as a very bad thing to do. And doing things which will make people drop out of school strikes me as an even WORSE policy.

[seaglass]

108. There are already mandatory requirements at school.

Why should any unathletic student be required to take gym? Why should my kid be forced to learn a foreign language? There certainly are conditions to getting a HS diploma. Everything about school is mandatory.

Where is your evidence that people will drop out of school?

[DoNotRefill]

110. So....

if there's a mandatory requirement that people work at an unpaid job to graduate from high school, you'd support it? I'm sure Corporate America would LOVE that....

As for my evidence, what other options do they have if they're unwilling to perform community service? Hell, people routinely go to jail for refusing to do court-imposed community service now. And jail is a much more serious thing than not getting a diploma....

[sangh0]

119. Answer the question

You were asked for evidence for your ridiculous assertion. Your response is not "evidence". It's speculation.

As for my evidence, what other options do they have ...

[goobergunch]

220. > Why should any unathletic student be required to take gym?

Good question.

[DoNotRefill]

225. Or why shold the physically handicapped be forced to take gym?

eom

[sangha]

249. They aren't

students can be waived from phys ed with permission from their parents

[OhioStateProgressive]

95. College should be free, not in return for archaeic conscription(nt)

[mobuto]

113. Why?

If you expect society to pay for your education, you should be expected to contribute to society.

[OhioStateProgressive]

116. because it is a HUMAN RIGHT

educated people create a higher tax base...so you do contribute

[mobuto]

121. I'm all for education

But society should have a right to demand something tangible in return from those it helps, not just a vague understanding that many of them will make money and pay taxes. Kerry's plan benefits everybody.

[Name removed]

123. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MurikanDemocrat]

129. OMFG, this thread has become absolutely absurd

:eyes:

Now you are shitting on his opinion??

[mobuto]

139. My opinion

would rather not be shit upon, thank you. Neither would Senator Kerry's.

[OhioStateProgressive]

190. it was a paraphrase of monty python

I see some people take things much too seriously around here.

You are still incorrect thuogh, and if you share Senator Kerry's opinion, well then he is wrong as well.

[WitchWay]

239. I'm all against mandatory service

Yeah...If you read Kerry's plan it really benefits everyone, doesn't it? Two years of work for the equivalent of your OWN STATE'S 4 year public college tuition? Seniors who, if they work hard, can help pay for their burdensome health care costs.

Society gets taxes from people. There's nothing vague about that. People are "contributing" to society all the time, by the way, and not necessarily in ways that can be easily accounted for. You want to demand that people "give back" to society as if you believe people are lazy and worthless and have "taken" things from you.

This is what Kerry is implying too, and I think it's really disgusting. Kerry has so much money. Corporations take from society all the time. Why not make tax corporations and the wealthy and pay taxes back to society so that society can hire workers instead of mandating community service. Then, we can improve society while people earn money.

The corporations and wealthy reap the greatest benefits from our society, but get out of having to invest in it. It's totally unfair to demand community service of citizens while the government treats these corporations and the rich to what amounts to free ride.

[DoNotRefill]

117. actually...

he's said he doesn't have a problem with paying taxes...and that constitutes contributing to society, doesn't it?

[mobuto]

120. No it doesn't

Its easy to write a check. But that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to our responsibilites to society.

[DoNotRefill]

122. writing the check is easy....

earning the money to make it good is not easy. When is tax freedom day now?

[mobuto]

337. Low taxes, no big government

Are you sure you're on the right website?

;-)

[DoNotRefill]

340. When did I say I wanted lower taxes?

You said that paying taxes isn't enough. I don't have a problem with paying taxes, either at the current rate, or at a higher rate. But don't tell me that paying taxes isn't enough, when earning the money to pay them takes a sizeable fraction of the year.

I don't necessarily mind big government, provided they're doing things to help people voluntarily. I DO mind the government interfering in my life in places that they have no business being, like my bedroom, or what I do with my free time. I REALLY have a problem with the government mandating that I do community service.

BTW, your post is insinuating that I'm some kind of freeper. That's both inappropriate and untrue.

[mobuto]

350. Ok, fine

I may have misunderstood your post. Paying taxes is a passive activity. It may require work to earn the money, but after that you're done -- you leave the business of running the government up to others. Now to some extent that's a fact of life. But I believe we all owe more active participation in our communities and our government in return for this free society.

I don't necessarily mind big government, provided they're doing things to help people voluntarily.

You oppose mandatory paycheck withholding too?

I REALLY have a problem with the government mandating that I do community service.

Ok.

[DoNotRefill]

365. Sure...

"You oppose mandatory paycheck withholding too?"

If people want to pay their taxes in a lump sum when they're due, what's the problem? Either way, the government gets the revenue. Withholding is a convenience, like a christmas club. As long as the cash is there before christmas, who cares how it gets there?

[OhioStateProgressive]

124. let's talk about SOCIETIES responsibility to MANKIND

Education

Health Care

Free Speech

No strings attached Democracy and Freedom.

Fuck this feudal idea that the masses owe return to their masters.

[KaraokeKarlton]

125. This is the main reason I won't ever vote for Kerry

As the single parent of three teenagers, I abhor the idea of forcing them to do punitive community service in order to graduate from high school. Teenagers don't even get to vote and do not have a political voice in this country and I, for one, am about sick and tired of the continuous pressures put upon already overtaxed kids. And we wonder why kids snap and walk into their schools and start shooting people. Democrats threw a fit when welfare recipients were required to work in order to receive assistance yet so many are perfectly okay with forcing children to work against their will and without compensation. Kerry's idea for mandatory service is complete and utter bullshit and it will be over my dead body that my children are ever subjected to this nonsense.

[sangh0]

126. Community service causes mass murder?

And we wonder why kids snap and walk into their schools and start shooting people.

Because of community service?

[curse10]

200. the rhetoric spewed on this board is getting more ridiculous by the moment

:-)

[Name removed]

202. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[seaglass]

127. It just amazes me when some who have gotten a helping hand

from their community when they were in need are so adamantly against giving back.

[mitchum]

231. Beautifully said, HopeLives

[KaraokeKarlton]

260. My family does give back...we all volunteer

And we do it on OUR terms, when we have time, where we want to and because we CHOOSE to do it. However, unless John Kerry intends to pay the cost of raising my kids and invest the time in them that I do, he has NO business telling them that they have to do community service like a juvenile delinquent in order to get their high school diploma.

[MurikanDemocrat]

131. Actually, I am quite thankful you are not a Kerry supporter

[Hav]

133. .

[mobuto]

135. Punitive?

What's punitive about community service? Do you abhor as well the idea of forcing them to attend math class to graduate from high school?

Ok, go and vote for Bush.

[DoNotRefill]

180. Well, community service has generally been punitive in nature....

by making it embarassing for the people performing it. For example, removing grafitti and picking up litter, wearing those dippy orange jumpsuits in public. At least that's been a big part of the rationale when the courts assigned it instead of jail time.

I wouldn't vote for Bush. It remains to be seen if I'd vote for Kerry.

[mobuto]

196. Well maybe that's the problem then

I did tons of community service in high school and, maybe because my friends weren't in court-ordered programs, I didn't see it as punitive at all. Certainly if every or practically every young person of a certain age were involved in such a program, it would lose its emotional connection with courtroom sentences. And no orange jumpsuits would be necessary.

[curse10]

204. I've never had to wear an orange jumpsuit while performing CS

there is a HUGE difference between court imposed CS and volunteering. I can't believe that some would stoop so low as to suggest that doing community service is a stigma. I'm proud of the work I've done with domestic violence victims and as a member of local mentoring program here in Boston for girls in half way homes. I love the work I do, and to suggest that I do it, or any volunteer does it, as a punishment lessens the work that hundreds of thousands of volunteers do every day. This is not about picking up trash. This is about giving back.

I'm thoroughly disgusted by some of the comments in this thread. Equating community service to the Gestapo and now people guilty of misdemeanors.

[DoNotRefill]

217. Ah. You VOLUNTEERED....

instead of being sentenced to perform community service by the government.

Not so subtle difference there..

[curse10]

218. Well, I had to perform CS to graduate HS, still no orange jumpsuit

:eyes:

[dawn]

161. So I guess you prefer how four more years of Bush will treat your kids?

??

[anti-NAFTA]

228. I'm a high school senior, and I know exactly what you're talking about.

This type of shit favors duplicitous students who fake their hours while people like me have to go actually do the slave labor - let's face it, it is essentially slave labor. Thank G-d my state or district or whatever only requires three hours.

It's a bunch of goody-goody bullshit designed to make voters feel all warm and fuzzy inside. "Oh, my kids will be helping poor people. How nice." Hey John Kerry, how about officially employing people with pay to do that community service instead of relying on slave labor. That'll be a ____ing start.

[FeebMaster]

229. That's an interesting point.

If you're going to force all these kids to work, shouldn't you be paying them minimum wage at least?

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[anti-NAFTA]

134. another nail in the coffin of Kerry's political career (absolutely SICK!)

He keeps it up! What High School student honestly wants to be FORCED to do community service? This is pure fascism. In PROGRESSIVE countries such as France and Belgium, this is unheard of. To turn kids into "an army of patriots"? Isn't that what Hitler did to German youngsters?

Last time I checked, schools were made for LEARNING! Oh but of course we don't want students to be educated...they should be working for the "community"...oh how nice and thoughtful of Dear Kerry!

I'm from a Florida high school and grudgingly performed three hours (minimum required) of community service at a battered woman's home. Some women there weren't even victims of domestic violence but only stayed there for the free daycare, shelter, and food. My service wasn't even needed. MANDATORY service is nonsense used for the purpose of turning teenagers into like-minded half-wits.

It's amazing how most states (and under Kerry, the FEDERAL GOVT) forces students into this "community service" which has absolutely NOTHING to do with academics.

Yup, great idea Mr. Kerry.

[mobuto]

136. What High School studenthonestly wants to be forced to take Algebra?

Just like algebra and spinach, somethings are good for you even if you don't want them.


Last time I checked, schools were made for LEARNING! Oh but of course we don't want students to be educated...they should be working for the "community"...oh how nice and thoughtful of Dear Kerry!

There are many ways of learning. Working in the community will teach young people a lot more about the world than they otherwise would learn.

Some women there weren't even victims of domestic violence but only stayed there for the free daycare, shelter, and food.

So I guess domestic violence shelters are all frauds. What's your point?

[anti-NAFTA]

140. algebra is ACADEMICS

"Community service" is not.

[FeebMaster]

142. You don't understand.

It will teach kids values and social responsibility and patriotism.

:eyes:

[anti-NAFTA]

144. Please tell me you are being sarcastic...

After doing my community service, I was more antisocial than ever.

I assume I'm not the only one.

When you turn doing a positive thing for society into a mandatory bureaucratic joke, it kind of makes you hate it.

[FeebMaster]

145. Extremely sarcastic.

All the people supporting this idea would be funny if it weren't so nauseating.

[mobuto]

152. That's your mistake

I was more antisocial than ever. I assume I'm not the only one.

Don't

[anti-NAFTA]

156. k Sese Seko. Whatever you say

If you want to recreate the Hitler Youth, go right ahead.

[mobuto]

160. Will do

Best of luck to the Kerry Administration in getting this through Congress. I hope he will go right ahead.

[mobuto]

153. So what?

Academics are the only things young people need to learn?

Not only do I disagree, I could not disagree more. The purpose of schooling is to teach people how to think. The subject matter is irrelevant. At no point in my life have I needed to know what a redox reaction is or what the difference is between synecdoche and metonymy, and yet I learned them in school. I have never needed Beowulf or Leviathan or Sister Carrie. And yet I read them all.

The goal (whether it succeeded or not is not yet clear) was to give me the reasoning tools necessary for me to be a productive member of society. Academics are just one way of creating an informed citizenry. Public service is another.

[anti-NAFTA]

157. that's nice

but I don't see why you should need public service to get a high school diploma...

sounds like fascism to me.

[mobuto]

162. Call it whatever names you like

Hitler Youth, Fascist, it doesn't really matter to me.

You don't see why you should need public service because you don't understand what the purpose of secondary education is.

[gate of the sun]

257. we don't need the state to teach our children values

we don't need the federal government to mandate it. What kind of insanity is this? The attitude and endorsement is down right outrageous. I don't think you understand the purpose of secondary education. It certainly isin't about teaching someone to work for free.

[mobuto]

264. This Contempt for Public Education

is really stunning. And at a place like DU?

The State wouldn't be teaching our children values. Young people would discover them on their own, working in their communities.

[gate of the sun]

296. what are you talking about?

where did you come from? this is total crap and I don't know if I wish to share political affiliation with you.

"discover them on their own working in their own communities" for free. give me a freaking break.

I'd like to say more but the rules won't allow.
children can learn plenty from caring parents.....I dont want to instill in one of mine that the state can and will require free services from them......unless they require it in exchange for beneficial services. (not including the shitty public schooling that is available now)

YOu got your High School Diploma without bending over I assume.

[DoNotRefill]

182. Heheheheee....

"The purpose of schooling is to teach people how to think."

Yup, mandatory forced labor will surely force people to think...but not about the kinds of things I think you want them to be thinking about....

(singing "where there's a whip, there's a way" from the animated Hobbit movie)

[goobergunch]

222. I liked algebra

I happen to enjoy math. :P

[mobuto]

246. NERD!!

I hated middle school algebra. I was never much of a math person but I did kind-of like algebra II and linear algebra wasn't too bad. I would have much rather done community service, however.

[dawn]

159. I feel sorry for you.

Honestly, performing the service "begrudingly." Geez. I loved doing community service while in school.

Obviously, I should go join a people's republic somewhere. My views certainly don't fit in with the "mine, mine mine" mantra in today's American society.

Also: if kids are able to opt out, how is it forced?

[curse10]

191. I was required to do community service to graduate highschool

it's not that unheard of.

And nice description of the domestic violence clinics. :eyes: I'm sure your attitude was appreciated during the whole three hours you worked there. I'm also sure you got the whole picture of what it meant to work with domestic violence victims in your three hours. Shit. That's a whole fucking movie.

[mikehiggins]

141. Some of that is okay, but some parts sound like the leftovers of a

massive pot party. I don't think he could even get most of that past the 2004 Platform Committee.

By the way, involuntary "volunteerism" is about as oxymoronic as "compassionate conservative". This is why people like me wept blood at the thought of this guy as our standard bearer.

In the words of the prophet, who the f**k are YOU to tell me what to do with my free time?

Kerry and the boys would do well to revisit this whole topic and stop sounding like we live in some sort of People's Republic.

[anti-NAFTA]

146. Amen pal. eom

[DoNotRefill]

185. either that, or....

"In the words of the prophet, who the f**k are YOU to tell me what to do with my free time?"

"what the f**k are you doing cutting the time devoted to academics to let the munchkins go out and perform "community service" of a dubious nature?"

[FeebMaster]

188. Come on DNR,

teaching kids patriotism and social responsibility is way more important than all that book lernin.

[JVS]

299. Is reading the Bible to old folks community service?

[FeebMaster]

301. I guess.

If you're being forced to read the Bible to old folks there might be some separation of church and state issues.

[dawn]

158. I think these are great ideas, especially expanding the Peace Corps.

Expanding the Peace Corps is a great idea. More people helping the neediest people out there in the world, and at the same time repairing America's tarnished international image.

I also am in the minority here, but I actually like Kerry's idea of mandatory community service for high schoolers. I do think kids should be able to opt out if they have to work to support their families, but what is wrong with requiring kids to help their communities for, say, a few hours a year? I think it would teach kids not to just think about their own needs all the time.

[DoNotRefill]

187. I don't think most people here have a problem....

with expanding the peace corps, as long as it's voluntary. I think the problem is with the idea of FORCING people to do things like join the peace corps.

as for the "let's spend a few hours a year helping people" bit, it reminds me of OBE. In theory, it sounds like a great idea, let's make kids feel good about themselves. Sounds spiffy, right? It's great, right up to the point that you put it into practice, and the kids feel good about themselves, but can't do simple arithmatic because they spent so much of their school time getting a "positive self-image" instead of learning how to freaking add correctly.

[BootinUp]

168. I like this very much

If it is presented in the right way, it could help Kerry's image on Terrorism and National Security. Not all, but many Americans really like this kind of stuff, this is the right way to respond to 9/11 at home.

[WitchWay]

258. Army of Patriots

What you are saying is that Kerry is basically using the labor of kids and the elderly to promote his own image when it comes to Terrorism and National Security? Whoa! That's sure generous of him.

What a great way to respond to 9/11...just keep everyone really busy and preoccupied so that they don't start wondering why their government is screwing them over...its' okay if not all americans like it. ABB!

[mobuto]

275. Its amazing how forceful some are

against community service. Its really stunning. You are aware of course that the only mandatory component of this is one summer of work for high school students, in their own communities, after which they'll receive a college scholarship? Ooh, that's rough...

What a great way to respond to 9/11...just keep everyone really busy and preoccupied so that they don't start wondering why their government is screwing them over...

Far be it for anyone... gasp... to encourage community service to help build our society. You must be fun to be around.

[FeebMaster]

278. No one is arguing against community service.

We're arguing against forced community service.

"Far be it for anyone... gasp... to encourage community service to help build our society. You must be fun to be around."

There's a difference between encouraging someone to do something and forcing someone to do something.

[DoNotRefill]

279. There's a HUGE difference between ENCOURAGING community service...

and REQUIRING IT.

I'd have no problem if the whole thing was voluntary. It's not, it's MANDATORY.

[BootinUp]

291. Thank you but I give up

It seems many here think that it is their divine right, to live in the most powerful, and secure nation in the world. That they owe *NOTHING* to maintaining it. I am frankly disgusted with this thread.

[DoNotRefill]

293. If we owe nothing....

does this mean I get tax refunds of all the money I've sweated blood to make and give to the Government?

[BootinUp]

294. Only if all the rest of us do I guess

We'll just absolve the Government completely...how's that?

[DoNotRefill]

297. No thanks....

I don't mind paying money to the government to help make it function. I DO mind the government taking my children away from me without my consent if I've done nothing wrong. That's what part of this program does....take children away from their parents. Sure, it's just for a summer, but given the Government's record as far as keeping juveniles in their custody safe from harm, they'll take my children literally over my dead body, and I'm not going to die alone. They have NO business acting "in loco parentis" if the "parentis" are there and don't want them taken.

[mobuto]

311. Greed Greed Greed

Our duty to our country does not end with paying taxes. Sorry.

[WitchWay]

304. I am forceful

After a whole summer of service - $500.00 -- gimme a break. That's paltry. It's not a scholarship, its a grant. Yeah -- poor kids should work at shit pay. How wonderful!

If people want to do community service - that's great. But the govenrment doesn't need to be involved in requiring it for high school students, or coming up with weird summer service learning projects that target low income kids.

So, I ask again - shouldn't corporations and the wealthy help to build our society by paying the taxes that they OWE to our society. That way, kids can get summer jobs that actually PAY them something, and corporations can help repair the society that they destroy.

[BootinUp]

314. Its called leadership

And its what this country needs right now. Just because you don't believe in community service doesn't mean squat to me.

[BootinUp]

170. Don't ask what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do

for your country!


Lets GO KERRY!

[FeebMaster]

174. No need to ask.

Your country will tell you what you can do for it. Then your country will make you do it.

[Forkboy]

173. Butterflies

[Zhade]

175. Who comes up with the titles of these ideas?

I'm guessing not Kerry - he's more creative than "Retired Not Tired" and "Name And Shame".

I mean, love or hate the man, either way those are still some pretty dumb titles.

[gate of the sun]

236. this is crap

maybe if we lived in a socialist country this would be OK with social benefits but this is a capitalist country and this would be slavery.......right of passage my ass. Muriken Democrat can defend it to her hearts desire but I believe in the freedom to decide how, when and where my kid spends his summer vacation. Besides with the economy in the shape it's it this would mean losing more jobs.

in short I think when bush starting suggesting stuff like this we were very angry because this guy is a democrat doesn't change my attitude in the slightest. Voting for Kerry might be harder than I thought.

[union_maid]

242. What a lot of fuss about nothing

Geometry..now that was punitive. Community service would have been great by comparison. There are loads of requirments for graduation. If said service must be done outside of school hours..and I don't see where that's necessarily the case..I'm sure there could be exceptions for hardships. It might be very interesting to see what might qualify. When I was in school, one guy who loved showbiz used to put on shows each year. He'd get all the most talented kids and bands from the area together, do weeks and weeks of rehearsal. These were not the honor roll types to say the least, either, and there was no supervision whatever by adults unless they happened to be home whenever rehearsal was at a private home. He'd do it on his own, everyone who wanted to contribute in some way or other were welcome and at the end, he got the school to allow him to put on the show in the auditorium and ticket sales all went to a specified charity. All the kids involved were doing community service, although we'd never heard that term yet in any context, and had a great time. It doesn't always have to be grim and all brownshirty.

[WitchWay]

256. This needs to be fussed over

The bottom line is that kids should not be put to labor as part of some damn politicians' P.R. campaign. That's like using kids for advertisements! I'm all for volunteer work, and I have volunteered myself. But, the federal government should not require national service. I think that its good for youngsters to do community service, but they should be able to do it in their own way, in their own communities, in their own styles and in their own time, without authoritarian mandates from school. For a lot of kids, its enough for them to help in their families where they may have young siblings, or an elderly relative, or someone who is sick. It's up for the parents, religious organizations, and children to decide their ways of community service -- not the federal government.

I think the summer of service for teenagers (see Kerrys' website) is just a ROTTEN idea. its for 13-17 year olds to do service learning. It targeting kids from low-income homes. I suspect they could use these programs for military recruitment, or to "prep" kids for military service. I am so opposed to these sorts of program because they can become abusive. Young people need to be aware of their own workplace safety, workplace rights, discrimination, labor laws, sexual harassment, etc. Putting kids in a workplace situation at too young an age can put them into a situation where they are not prepared to deal with authority and they can easily be used and abused. The students would not be compensated fairly either, a $500.00 grant is measly. Does John Kerry know how little money that is for so much labor? That's an insult to these kids.

I am especially opposed to these types of programs because I was in a work-program through my public school as a child. The program was based in behavior modification. It was militaristic, abusive and punitive. It was run with classist and racist stereotypes. I cannot begin to tell people what a bad idea I think these sorts of programs are. I believe these sorts of programs are liable to instill a warped work ethic (like working for little or no money) in these disadvantaged students, who will tend to undervalue their worth on the job market. Priveleged kids will go to summercamps, learn art, learn music, get academic programs, leadership training, gifted programs, sports, computer camps, academics and fun things...while the children of those who can't afford child care get to learn through "service" work how they ought not be so lazy and irresponsible. Why not really do something to provide all kids equal treatment and equal oppurtunities, regardless of their backgrounds.

[IndianaGreen]

261. "the federal government should not require national service"

That's the point that many Kerry defenders seem to be missing, this is a federal mandated program, not unlike conscription.

I don't know who is the idiot that put this proposal together, but its rhetoric is very similar to the "new patriotism" stuff that Wes Clark was speaking about.

I suggest that the real Kerry supporters among us alert the campaign about some of the authoritarian crap and that is being posted in its name on their website, and to do so before it causes a public embarrassment to the candidate.

This reeks of fascism!

[mobuto]

270. Correct

That's the point that many Kerry defenders seem to be missing, this is a federal mandated program, not unlike conscription.

I don't miss that at all. And I entirely support it.

I don't know who is the idiot that put this proposal together, but its rhetoric is very similar to the "new patriotism" stuff that Wes Clark was speaking about.

It most certainly is. I was a committed Clark supporter (well, I was more than just a supporter) - but John Kerry has consistently managed to impress me with his message, his command of the issues, his vision, and his charming habit of adopting General Clark's positions.

I suggest that the real Kerry supporters among us alert the campaign about some of the authoritarian crap and that is being posted in its name on their website, and to do so before it causes a public embarrassment to the candidate.

LOL. If this is authoritarian, then Internal Revenue is the Waffen SS. What is this? We're talking about one summer in high school, not twenty years in the Solovetsky Islands.

You don't think John Kerry supports his own message?

On edit: your appeal reminds me of the lament of Jews in the Pale of Settlement, after repeated waves of oppression, "If only the Czar knew!" Well of course the Czar knew. I think this is a good thing, you think this is bad thing, but one thing is clear: John Kerry knows what his stance on the issues is.

[DoNotRefill]

273. You support it because you've stated here.....

that you think the draft is a good idea.

Given that, if we're going to require people to become governmental killers against their will, what's a little more indoctrination and slavery? Hell, since they're younger than military-aged folks, it'll be easier to propagandize them, and will ensure better compliance when they get into the military. It's better to break them into the yoke gradually, after all...

:puke:

[mobuto]

289. Again, slavery?

I do support the draft, but Kerry isn't talking about the draft. He's talking about one summer in high school - really nothing more radical than arguing for mandatory gym credit or an extra couple of math classes. Hate to use the same metaphor in two consecutive posts, but again we're really not talking about 20 years of forced labor in the Solovetsky Islands.

Hell, since they're younger than military-aged folks, it'll be easier to propagandize them, and will ensure better compliance when they get into the military.

You really think that's the goal? You must be joking.

[DoNotRefill]

292. Do I think it's Kerry's goal? No.

Do I think that'll be the end result? Yes.

And I do find it more radical to require community service during the school year, coupled with students being forced to give up their summers, and old people being "encouraged" to serve at the risk of losing medical benefits (what else would you call being able to use the so-called "credits" for medical services? If they don't serve, they don't get treatment, and that's just WRONG), rather than to simply encourage people to volunteer.

[mobuto]

295. You think slavery is a coming?

Wow. You do.

And I do find it more radical to require community service during the school year, coupled with students being forced to give up their summers,

What's so especially radical about that?

and old people being "encouraged" to serve at the risk of losing medical benefits (what else would you call being able to use the so-called "credits" for medical services?

Unless I am being misled by the Senator's rhetoric, his plan calls for the providing of additional medical benefits on top of what would ordinarily be available. Since so many millions of seniors volunteer as it is, this would have the effect of rewarding just the kind of civic mindedness you seem to take umbrage at.

[DoNotRefill]

302. "rewarding civic mindedness"

means that people who aren't "civic minded" do without. Do we REALLY want to set a precedent of giving additional benefits to people who obey the government while denying those benefits to others who don't? What happens to the old people in wheelchairs who CAN'T volunteer? They see their benefits cut in relation to benefits of healthy people who can volunteer. How exactly is that fair?

This kind of approach is why healthy people can get insurance, while sick people can't.

"What's so especially radical about that?"

Where's the constitutional authority to do so? Remember, this isn't a situation where failure to conscript people will endanger the country, it's a "feel good" measure.

Regarding slavery: look around you, man. Are we as a people more free or less free than we were in 1980? Government is a necessary evil. Allowing it to control every aspect of our lives against our will is NOT what freedom is all about.

You're familiar with MADD, right? Everybody wants to be safe, right? NOBODY supports drunk driving, do they? The ideals are good, let's keep people safe. The implementation SUCKS, and it's damaged the civil liberties covered by the 4th Amendment immeasurably. Yes, there are fewer drunk drivers on the road, so we're safer. But the cost has been a huge curtailment of our civil rights regarding unreasonable searches and seizures. Is it worth it? To me, not only no, but HELL NO.

In short, the Road to Hell is paved with good intentions. I don't want to go down it. and if you don't think our civil liberties can be eroded to the point that we become virtual slaves, you haven't been paying attention to what's been going on the past 3 years.

[mobuto]

310. Not a zero sum game

Nowhere does Kerry talk about cutting benefits to any senior. Sorry.

What happens to the old people in wheelchairs who CAN'T volunteer? They see their benefits cut in relation to benefits of healthy people who can volunteer.

You just made that up. Please stick to the facts.

This kind of approach is why healthy people can get insurance, while sick people can't.

Of course. Now John Kerry's health care plan - totally unrelated to what we're discussing - attempts to tackle that problem and make health care available for almost everybody. Whether he can get that through a Republican Congress or not remains to be seen.

Where's the constitutional authority to do so? Remember, this isn't a situation where failure to conscript people will endanger the country, it's a "feel good" measure.

For which measure? The high school programs would be conducted by states, on the state level. States could certainly refuse to set up these community service programs - as they're free to turn away Federal money any day of the week.

Regarding slavery: look around you, man. Are we as a people more free or less free than we were in 1980?

Definitely more free. The Americans with Disabilities Act, Lawrence v. Texas, the Internet, Hustler v. Falwell, just for starters, are kind of nice.

Allowing it to control every aspect of our lives against our will is NOT what freedom is all about

I agree entirely. However we're talking about a summer of community service in high school, not totalitarian state repression.

[DoNotRefill]

323. You said:

"You just made that up. Please stick to the facts."

The original post says:
"Alternatively, seniors will be able to use these funds to defray their own health care costs."

If seniors who serve can use the grants to defray their health care costs, what happens to the people who don't serve? They don't get the grants, and if they can't pay for the services, they don't get them. How is that NOT creating a two tiered system?

"The high school programs would be conducted by states, on the state level. States could certainly refuse to set up these community service programs - as they're free to turn away Federal money any day of the week. "

Wrong, it's a federally mandated program. If it wasn't, then why the "unfunded federal mandate" language?

"Definitely more free. The Americans with Disabilities Act, Lawrence v. Texas, the Internet, Hustler v. Falwell, just for starters, are kind of nice."

Place those up against the Patriot Act, the erosion of our other civil liberties through judicial decisions, et cetera, and you have a net loss of freedom.

"However we're talking about a summer of community service in high school, not totalitarian state repression."

So as long as those handcuffs are just getting a little tighter, it's OK?

[mobuto]

336. The same way the GI Bill doesn't cost

people who don't serve. Seniors who don't get the benefits aren't being denied anything they currently get. This hurts nobody. This is just a reward for the great many seniors who do volunteer their time for worthy causes. You seemed to imply that it would take away benefits from those who don't volunteer, and nothing could be further from the truth.

Wrong, it's a federally mandated program. If it wasn't, then why the "unfunded federal mandate" language?

??? Its federally mandated only insofar as states are required to implement it if they want to keep on receiving federal monies. The Federal Government isn't required to subsidize public education and any state is free to say no to the Feds if they find the costs outweigh the benefits.

Place those up against the Patriot Act

I don't support certain provisions of the Patriot Act and neither does John Kerry. However this initiative has nothing to do with that.

So as long as those handcuffs are just getting a little tighter, it's OK?

Are the black helicopters hovering overhead yet?

[DoNotRefill]

342. Heh....

"Seniors who don't get the benefits aren't being denied anything they currently get. This hurts nobody. This is just a reward for the great many seniors who do volunteer their time for worthy causes. You seemed to imply that it would take away benefits from those who don't volunteer, and nothing could be further from the truth."

But it IS setting up a two tiered system, right? Those who get the reward and those who don't, right? If the reward isn't worth anything, than why would people do it? And if it IS worth something, then not getting it hurts the people who don't get it. It's a carrot and stick kind of situation. You like the carrot, and side with the people who will get it. I don't like the stick, and am concerned about the people who will get that.

"Its federally mandated only insofar as states are required to implement it if they want to keep on receiving federal monies. The Federal Government isn't required to subsidize public education and any state is free to say no to the Feds if they find the costs outweigh the benefits."

Where does the proposal say that? They're talking about a federal law mandating involuntary community service. What State law can override a Federal law? Ever heard of the Supremacy Clause?

When the Brady Bill was passed, were States free not to comply with it because the money wasn't right? Of course not.

"I don't support certain provisions of the Patriot Act and neither does John Kerry. However this initiative has nothing to do with that."

Ah. Good. So he voted against it, right? That's good to know. This provision DOES have to do with the general erosion of our civil liberties, just as the Patriot Act does.

"Are the black helicopters hovering overhead yet?"

If they are, they're doing so quietly (and out of range, I might add) so that I can't hear them...

[mobuto]

345. There already is a two-tiered system

But it IS setting up a two tiered system, right?

What's your point? There already are many tiers. Some seniors have private health coverage to supplement Medicare, others don't. Some have limited coverage, others have comprehensive coverage, some have nothing. Do you oppose the GI Bill because it creates "two-tiers" of college students? Maybe scholarships should also be canceled?

And if it IS worth something, then not getting it hurts the people who don't get it.

Absolutely not. If I give $100 to a charity, for instance, I'm hardly hurting the charities I don't give money to. This is exactly the same thing. The government is helping some people more than it ordinarily would, its not helping anybody less.

They're talking about a federal law mandating involuntary community service. What State law can override a Federal law? Ever heard of the Supremacy Clause?

The Supremacy Clause is irrelevant here. The Federal Gov't does not have the authority to mandate this program, and nobody is saying it does. President Kerry would just make the adoption of this program a requirement for states who choose to receive federal education assitance. If they don't want the money, they don't have to do it. The program would be mandatory for students, however, as the states have the power to legislate this.

When the Brady Bill was passed, were States free not to comply with it because the money wasn't right? Of course not.


I am completely confused. What does the Brady Bill have to do with Community Service and eduation funding?

[DoNotRefill]

368. come on....

"I am completely confused. What does the Brady Bill have to do with Community Service and eduation (sic) funding?"

The Brady Bill requires criminal background checks nationwide. The States can set up their own programs and not implement the Federal NICS check, or just go with the NICS system. But background checks are FEDERAL law. The same will hold true with this program. It will federally mandate involuntary community service for everybody in high schools. State programs may qualify, but I'm sure that if the States choose to NOT implement a program, the Feds WILL.

"The Federal Gov't does not have the authority to mandate this program, and nobody is saying it does. President Kerry would just make the adoption of this program a requirement for states who choose to receive federal education assitance."

So, by using the power of the pursestrings, the Federal government will force the States to do what the Federal Government wants them to do, the same as they did with Federal highway funds and the speed limit. Again, it's a carrot and stick approach, but instead of saying "if you implement this program, we'll pay for it", they're saying "implement this program or we'll cut ALL education funding to you, including things like Head Start and Pell Grants."

"Absolutely not. If I give $100 to a charity, for instance, I'm hardly hurting the charities I don't give money to. This is exactly the same thing. The government is helping some people more than it ordinarily would, its not helping anybody less."

There's a multi-tiered health care system in that there are public and private systems and methods of payment, but the FEDERAL health care system isn't multi-tiered. All people who are qualified for medicare have the same possible benefits. This will change that, turning people who are at the bottom and have only the federal system to rely upon into people who must scramble for benefits. Those who can participate get more federal coverage than those who cannot or will not. At that point, the whole "safety net" concept is completely thrown out the window, and the people who cannot participate effectively become second-class health care recipients. Would YOU like to be the one to tell Grandma Whomever that "Sorry, you can't have this done because you didn't "volunteer"?

[mikehiggins]

272. I supported Clark whole heartedly but the "new patriotism" slogans

made me a little nervous as well. I figured it would be toned down as time went on, but what I see of this seems to be actually taking it a step further.

All of Clark's ideas were based on total voluntary involvement at all levels but you had to actually read the things to get that. This proposal just seems worse.

Maybe that's my problem. Maybe I just had more faith in Clark than in Kerry, but it seemed to me from the beginning that Clark said what he meant more often than not while Kerry is, at heart, nothing but a politician.

[WitchWay]

305. creepy language

There is a lot of weird language surrounding Kerry that I don't like, and I don't know if its deliberate or not. Besides an "army of patriots" and "retired not tired" these are two other things that I found foreboding on his website:

Hunter Dreamer Realist
John Kerry eats doves

http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/sportsmen/
"Hunter, Dreamer, Realist
From The Washington Post: "John Kerry eats dove. Even better, he shoots them. From behind the stalks of a Southern cornfield, he'll watch them flutter and dart, and fire. "


a new Manhattan Project

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/energy/
"John Kerry has the vision to create a new Manhattan Project to make America independent of Middle East oil in 10 years by creating alternative fuels like ethanol and making cars more efficient."

I know alternative energy is good, but I'm creeped out that he refers to it as a "new Manhattan Project."

[mikehiggins]

308. Ethanol and increased auto efficiency? Sounds like bandaids n/t

[BootinUp]

277. You're absolutely right

People are making a big fuss over NOTHING!

Here we have Kerry trying to show Americans what a looser Bush is. He is putting a proposal out there to make America stronger and better. It is just a proposal keep in mind. It will be debated and modified as needed so that people can see the benefits of giving some of their precious time back to our country.

This is not a facist dictatorial proposal people! It is an effort to win back our country by showing how inept Bush is as a leader. Please support this effort, we need to improve the Democratic Parties image with regard to National Security! It is imperative.

[DoNotRefill]

280. And HOW, exactly....

will this do a SINGLE GODDAMNED THING TO INCREASE NATIONAL SECURITY???????

What, are we concerned that first responders will trip over litter while rushing to attack terrorists?!?!?!?!?

[GreenArrow]

313. it will encourage unity

bringing us all together, united in the service of a common cause, somewhat in the manner of a bundle of small sticks.

[DoNotRefill]

317. Ah, yes...."Unity"....

During my undergrad days, I once ran for the SGA presidency on a populist platform (basically meaning anti-Greek, who had a stranglehold on the SGA and used it to their advantage instead of the advantage of the student body as a whole). One of my opponents ran on a "Unity" platform, trying to bring "everybody together". During one of the debates, the issue of diversity came up. The "Unity" candidate came across with a diatribe against diversity, saying it was a BAD thing, and that the student body needed to be more homogeneous. "Sororities for everybody!!!" This, of course, flummoxed me. For a moment, I was struck speechless. I pulled a Dean or a Kucinich, and ranted for a while about the absurdity of her comments. Not being in a fraternity, (I went for the non-greek groups, like the GLBT support group, the biology and geology clubs, et cetera) I lost the election (with a very good showing, over 30% in a 3 person race), but I'm proud to say that she did, too.

"Unity" SUCKS. It's a tool of oppression.

[sangh0]

319. Afraid of unity, are we?

I don't blame you. Kerry rocks

[BootinUp]

321. Unity of purpose is not incompatible with diversity of members

Most of what civilization has accomplished is the result of people working together. You seem to think people loose their identity by working together.

[DoNotRefill]

322. "Unity"....

is often a buzzword for exclusion, a way of stifling dissent. It creates two groups....the unified and everybody else. You obey the group, or you are ostracized.

Thanks, but I'll pass.

IDIC
(obligatory Star Trek reference)

[BootinUp]

324. Your fear of the word

unity is misplaced. Here at DU we have unity, and yet we have a very diverse group of people with a common purpose.

[DoNotRefill]

326. Heh....look around you....

does DU really strike you as "unified"? If so, that means there's no need for the Naderite "purge" that's almost certain to come eventually. BTW, IIRC, there have been other serious "purges" here in the past. All you have to do to find evidence of them is go to the archives and find the people with high post counts (who weren't Freeper-type disruptors) but that sport tombstones over disagreements with the Admin. Or, to give you an idea of how many people have been purged, compare the number of registered users on the front page to the number of unbanned users found by adding up the numbers in the profile section (by my count, 32,819 people still here, with 40742 registered users, or just about 8,000 tombstoned users). Even with 8,000 users tombstoned, we're still noway NEAR unified.

And in case you didn't notice, DU is NOT society at large, or even remotely democratic. It's owned by the Admin, and their word is law here. If Skinner decides you're tombstoned, you're tombstoned, with no redress. Skinner's effectively a (largely benevolent) dictator here. He pretty much admits it. Don't believe me? Read the rules. If Skinner wants you gone, you're gone, and if he wants to shut the place down or turn it into a pay-porno site or whatever, he can. What recourse do we have? Lay seige to the LLC??? You have NO rights here except the rights that Skinner gives you. That's fine for a board on the internet, but is no way to run a country.

BTW, I'm not ragging on Skinner here, I'm just trying to explain the situation. PLEASE DON'T TOMBSTONE ME!!!! ;)

[BootinUp]

331. I'm well aware that some issues

divide DUers just as some unify us.

[FeebMaster]

332. Apparently mandatory national service

is a divisive issue.

[BootinUp]

334. Anything mandatory usually is

Frankly, without some type of mandatory provision you probably won't get the response that is needed to achieve the objective he lays out.

And since there is such a large pool of citizens, each would contribute a small amount of work.

[FeebMaster]

335. So basically you've got

a tiny minority forcing its will on the majority. As long as it's for the good of society, I guess.

[BootinUp]

339. You make it sound

like Kerry can enact this program like a dictator or something.

[FeebMaster]

341. Well I suppose he could use

an executive order or something. But I was thinking more along the lines of people who support making a difference through forced labor and then the majority of people performing the forced labor who wouldn't be there if they weren't being forced.

[BootinUp]

343. It seems to me that "forced labor"

implies nothing is gained in return for the work. Also it gives an onerous picture of the working conditions. I do not think you can say that accurately portrays this proposal. Also it seems the amount of labor required is quite small. I gotta run now, but I'll check back later.

:)

[FeebMaster]

344. "Forced Labor" implies

that the "Labor" is "Forced." That someone gets something in return for their labor doesn't mean they weren't forced to perform the labor. Slaves were clothed, fed, and given a place to sleep, after all.

What does the amount or difficulty of the labor required have to do with anything? The laborer is still being forced to perform the service and will be penalized if he doesn't.

[BootinUp]

346. Comparing slavery

to this proposal is preposterous friend. It is hyperbole and you use it to make this program sound more onerous than it is in fact.

(P.S. I think I am beginning to write like The Magistrate for some reason)

:)

[FeebMaster]

348. Is it now?

Well what else do you call a system of forcing people to perform labor that they have no desire to perform and with penalties if they fail to perform?

[BootinUp]

349. At least you would be free to cross the borders

and not come back :)

Look we must agree to disagree. And no I am not telling you leave the country just pointing out that in truth no one would be forced to perform this labor.

[FeebMaster]

351. No one will be forced?

How so? There are penalties for not performing the labor are there not?

[BootinUp]

352. It is an agreement

not forced. Slaves were not allowed to leave.

[FeebMaster]

353. Agreement?

The forced laborer agrees that he doesn't want to face the penalties of laboring. So, the forced laborer is allowed to leave, as it were, as long as he agrees to pay the penalty for doing so.

[BootinUp]

354. The laborer

(sans forced) agrees to perform a small mandatory requirement, in return he enjoys all the benefits of living in the wealthiest country in the world, and gets some other payment to be determined. If the laborer does not agree he would have the choice of leaving the country for greener pastures, or paying some penalty as yet unknown but not likely to be imprisonment or torture or death.

[FeebMaster]

355. The penalty would be not getting

a high school diploma as far as this proposal goes. Was there even a benefit for performing that portion of the labor? Another part of it was the summer of service which would get a person a college grant for a semester's worth of books or so. It didn't say if that part was mandatory or not.

Love it or leave it. Such a good argument. I don't understand why all you forced labor proponents don't go find a country where the sort of thing you propose would be welcomed. Why do the rest of us have to leave if we don't want to perform your forced labor?

[BootinUp]

357. The argument I gave in support

is the only one available to counter the view that any amount of mandatory community service is not acceptable.

[FeebMaster]

358. I understand.

Love It or Leave It.

But my questions stand: Why do we have to leave if we don't like your proposal? Why don't the mandatory service supporting people go find a country where that sort of thing is acceptable?

[BootinUp]

360. Well it is not

a love it or leave it proposition for me. I could be accept both. The popularity of this program is still up in the air. So I wouldn't be too worried yet FeebMaster, if I was on your side of the issue.

[FeebMaster]

361. Well I already graduated high school,

so I guess I don't have to leave the country since I won't have to perform the forced labor. I oppose this program on principle.

[BootinUp]

363. I figured that

and I respect your position.

[DoNotRefill]

374. Couldn't the same be said of slavery?

after all, they performed the mandatory requirement (that they work and be treated as chattel) and enjoyed "the benefits of living in the wealthiest country in the world" in return.

That's a bullshit argument, and you should know that.

[DoNotRefill]

372. If you leave to avoid it....

you're giving up your home.

Slaves were free to choose to die. That doesn't mean they were free.

[DoNotRefill]

371. Ahhh..."love it or leave it"....

"At least you would be free to cross the borders and not come back"

VERY nice....

[DoNotRefill]

370. That's like saying working on a chain-gang....

builds character, so it's OK because the people being forced to work get something out of it.

[FeebMaster]

328. Unity at DU?

Priceless.

[BootinUp]

329. What is the problem with understanding the possible uses of

that word. Obviously there are varying degrees of unity. heh

The fact that 99% of DU'ers want Bush out of office is enough evidence of some degree of unity.

[FeebMaster]

330. I'll have to take your word for it (nt)

[DoNotRefill]

333. Unity at what cost?

Here at DU, people who are pro-Bush quickly get tombstoned, right?

If the Government was run as DU is, what would the Government's version of "tombstoning" be? A .32 to the back of the head? Or in deference to civil liberties, just a gulag system?

You're saying unity is a good thing at DU, and would be a good thing for the country, right? I LIKE posting at DU. But I wouldn't want to see the country run in the same way.

Seriously, think about this. After 9/11, much of the country was "unified". This unity enabled the invasion of Iraq and the passage of the Patriot Act. Many of us were excoriated by the "unified" country for dissenting. What would happen to dissent if the country was TRULY unified? It'd be stifled at the very least.

Unity destroys diversity. Diversity means everybody can have their own opinions, even if you hate their opinions. I don't buy into the whole conformity thing. I'm SHOCKED that you do.

[BootinUp]

338. Prior to going in

Support for an actual invasion was 45% as I recall. It shot up to 70+% immediately after forces went in.

But that is all besides the point. I explained how I was using the term.

Also Kerry explained what this "Army" would be doing, it doesn't sound like you or other Americans would be in physical danger as a result of his proposal.

[FeebMaster]

281. See the benefits

of giving some of their precious time back to our country?

What benefits are those? Being allowed to get a high school diploma? I don't know, if you want to show people the benefits of volunteering their time, forcing them to volunteer might not be the best place to start.

[DoNotRefill]

284. Really....if they're FORCED to volunteer....

it's not really volunteering, is it?

"I need three volunteers. You, you, and you."

[FeebMaster]

286. You wouldn't think so.

A bunch of the 280 posts above here seem to disagree though.

[opstachuck]

312. big deal

we help kids to learn math when they're in school. what's the big deal with helping them to learn to contribute to their community? americans, in general, are too caught up on this notion that they owe nothing to society and that society owes them something - maybe this will get them to think about something beyond their own petty lives. and as far as it being forced or conscripted, what isn't forced in school? some kids are gonna like it and others aren't. big deal. all this fuss sounds like objectivist, libertarian bullshit. i had to do a hundred hours my senior year of high school. sometimes i liked it, sometimes i didn't but it definitely helped me to think outside my little world a bit more and it allowed me to get some experience in a field that i was interested in. it's not like they have to pick up trash on the highway. they can work in labs - we have a high school student in one of our molecular biology labs, they can work at hospitals if they're interested in medecine. if we set up more programs like this in different areas then kids could volunteer and help their community while piquing their interests in the subjects they like.

[DoNotRefill]

318. Or they can join the Explorers or Young Pioneers....

to do their community service....

Ahhh....the joys of militarized youth groups!!!! Can we sing the Horst Wessel song or the Internationale now? Where do I sign up for my spiffy uniform?

[opstachuck]

373. what the hell is this? a message board for conspiracy theorists?

[goodhue]

327. "Recruiting More Americans to the Military"

There will be a draft in 2005, only unknown is whether its under Kerry or Bush.

[messiah]

356. Wow

Kerry is: :crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:
:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:
:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:
:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:
:crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:
There is just nothing else say....................