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What will President Kerry's foreign policy look like?

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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:13 PM
Original message
What will President Kerry's foreign policy look like?
I presume it will have a friendlier and more-welcome face than that of bush, and will be potentially less subject to international scorn. What else can be said about it?

From a http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=124&subid=158&contentid=252144">Progressive Policy Institute position paper:

"Progressive internationalism stresses the responsibilities that come with our enormous power: to use force with restraint but not to hesitate to use it when necessary, to show what the Declaration of Independence called "a decent respect for the opinions of mankind," to exercise leadership primarily through persuasion rather than coercion, to reduce human suffering where we can, and to create alliances and international institutions committed to upholding a decent world order."

Assuming Kerry generally agrees with this worldview, in which of the following international policies could voters expect a Kerry administration to participate, in the spirit of upholding decency:

* a comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty?
* the establishment of an international criminal court?
* a worldwide ban on landmines?
* a ban on the use of cluster bombs and/or DU shells in civilian-populated areas?
* a global treaty limiting CO2 emissions?
* trade agreements that enforce environmental and labor protection standards?

When you think of President Kerry, what do you imagine his administration's foreign policy agenda to be?
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well, if CNN is to be trusted, he has called
for a "temporary" increase in the military of 40,000 people. I suspect he plans to continue in Iraq.

And if there is some way for him to find 40,000 people in ways other than the draft, I would really like to know what it is.
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TinaTyson Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
2. They all sound pretty good.
Those would be a nice start.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Would John Kerry embrace any of them?
I agree, they'd be a nice start, but Bill Clinton managed to avoid them for 8 years. Can we expect more from John Kerry?
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Duck90MPH Donating Member (93 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. Sending 40,000 more people to die in Iraq sounds good?
I must disagree.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. It's a false charge
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TinaTyson Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Oh ok I wondered when I read that earlier.
Is it just a trade off? Where do the new 40k come from? And how many go home 40k also?
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TinaTyson Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. This is from his website
It is not real clear where the 40k come from. Is that a reasonable figure for a recrution drive? I'm not realy familiar with what kind of numbers that can generate.

http://johnkerry.com/issues/iraq/

* 40,000 Active-Duty Troops. Kerry is calling to add 40,000 troops to the active-duty Army. The United States should add the equivalent of a current division, about 20,000 combat troops, to the active duty Army. Under Kerry’s plan the United States should also add an additional 20,000 individuals to the active force with specialties in post-conflict skills, such as civil affairs and the military police in order to relieve the excessive burden on our reservists.
* Relieve Pressure on Service Members. The buildup, which will require time to implement, will relieve the mismatch between active and reserve capabilities and also allow us to thank returning reservists when they rotate out of Iraq in 3 to 9 months—not just with our gratitude but with a reasonable assurance that they will not have to again deploy to Iraq in the immediate future.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Kerry wants to


temporarily add to the number of overall regular army troops in order to allow more National Guards and Reserves go back to their normal lives.

KERRY: None of those troops are going to Iraq that I've talked about, that 40,000.

That is a reflection of the fact that our military is extraordinarily overextended. Our Guards and Reserves have been turned into almost active duty. When we bring the rotation of these four divisions back, over the course of the spring, we'll only have two divisions actively prepared to do what we need to do in our country.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A16969-2004Feb29.html




Kerry wants to increase the number of regular army troops temporarily by 40,000, to take the pressure of the Guards and reserves. He is not in any way, shape or form saying he wants to increase the number of troops overseas.
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TinaTyson Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Right, until the reservists come home.
So we just need 40,000 volunteers to go to Iraq?

Again ,is that reasonable? Or maybe I should ask, do You feel that it is reasonably likely that 40,000 new people will volunteer for that?

Again, I don't know but it seems rather high to me.
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TinaTyson Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I see the difference now.
Ok none of the sign ups have to go only currently serving people.

So 40,000 is more likely that way for sure. But Still seems high to me.
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TinaTyson Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. But then again.
When this new batch of troops wears out in a year. Will the signups go then? Will we be all home in a year?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. You either are deliberately distorting, or you've misunderstood.
Edited on Sat Mar-06-04 07:27 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
It's hard for me to tell which it is, at this point.
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TinaTyson Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. It was a misunderstanding as I posted afterwards.
No biggie.

But I still am unclear on the ease of finding 40,000 new sign-ups.

Surely they will be aware that when the troops rotating in now come home in another year or two that they may end up having to go after all. If all is not peaceful yet of course.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. This was an early speech of Kerry's. "...We do not seek an empire..."
Foreign Policy Speech at Georgetown University


January  23,  2003

Georgetown University, Washington, DC

As our government conducts one war and prepares for another, I come here today to make clear that we can do a better job of making our country safer and stronger. We need a new approach to national security - a bold, progressive internationalism that stands in stark contrast to the too often belligerent and myopic unilateralism of the Bush Administration.

I offer this new course at a critical moment for the country that we love, and the world in which we live and lead.

Thanks to the work and sacrifice of generations who opposed aggression and defended freedom, for others as well as ourselves, America now stands as the world's foremost power. We should be proud: Not since the age of the Romans have one people achieved such preeminence.

But we are not Romans; we do not seek an empire. We are Americans, trustees of a vision and a heritage that commit us to the values of democracy and the universal cause of human rights. So while we can be proud, we must be purposeful and mindful of our principles: And we must be patient - aware that there is no such thing as the end of history. With great power, comes grave responsibility.

We are all of us too aware, since September 11th, of the gravity of the times and the greatness of the stakes. Having won the Cold War, a brief season of content has been succeeded by a new war against terrorism which is an assault on the very progress we have made.

Throughout our history, in peaceful exertion and in armed struggle, we were steadfast - we were right on the central issue of freedom, and we prevailed. And because we prevailed the world is a far better place than it was or would otherwise have been.

The world today has a strong democratic core shaped by American ingenuity, sacrifice, and spirit. But on the periphery are many unstable and dangerous places, where terrorists seek to impose a medieval dark age.
As we learned so brutally and so personally, we do face a new threat. But we also face a renewed choice - between isolation in a perilous world, which I believe is impossible in any event, and engagement to shape a safer world which is the urgent imperative of our time.

A choice between those who think you can build walls to keep the world out, and those who want to tear down the barriers that separate "us" from "them." Between those who want America to go it alone, and those who want America to lead the world toward freedom.

The debate over how the United States should conduct itself in the world is not new.

After all, what is today's unilateralism but the right's old isolationist impulse in modern guise? At its core is a familiar and beguiling illusion: that America can escape an entangling world...that we can wield our enormous power without incurring obligations to others...and that we can pursue our national interests in arrogant ways that make a mockery of our nation's ideals.

I am here today to reject the narrow vision of those who would build walls to keep the world out, or who would prefer to strike out on our own instead of forging coalitions and step by step creating a new world of law and mutual security.

I believe the Bush Administration's blustering unilateralism is wrong, and even dangerous, for our country. In practice, it has meant alienating our long-time friends and allies, alarming potential foes and spreading anti-Americanism around the world.

Too often they've forgotten that energetic global leadership is a strategic imperative for America, not a favor we do for other countries. Leading the world's most advanced democracies isn't mushy multilateralism -- it amplifies America's voice and extends our reach. Working through global institutions doesn't tie our hands -- it invests US aims with greater legitimacy and dampens the fear and resentment that our preponderant power sometimes inspires in others.

In a world growing more, not less interdependent, unilateralism is a formula for isolation and shrinking influence. As much as some in the White House may desire it, America can't opt out of a networked world.
We can do better than we are doing today. And those who seek to lead have a duty to offer a clear vision of how we make Americans safer and make America more trusted and respected in the world.

That vision is defined by looking to our best traditions -- to the tough-minded strategy of international engagement and leadership forged by Wilson and Roosevelt in two world wars and championed by Truman and Kennedy in the Cold War.

These leaders recognized that America's safety depends on energetic leadership to rally the forces of freedom And they understood that to make the world safe for democracy and individual liberty, we needed to build international institutions dedicated to establishing the rule of law over the law of the jungle.
That's why Roosevelt pushed hard for the United Nations and the World Bank and IMF. It's why Truman insisted not only on creating NATO, but also on a Marshall Plan to speed Europe's recovery. It's why Kennedy not only faced down the Soviets during the Cuban Missile Crisis, but also signed the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and launched the Peace Corps to put American idealism to work in developing countries. He spoke out for an America strong because of its ideals as well as its weapons.

For us today, the past truly is prologue. The same principles and strength of purpose must guide our way. Our task now is to update that tradition, to forge a bold progressive internationalism for the global age.
As I said last summer in New York, for Democrats to win America's confidence we must first convince Americans we will keep them safe. You can't do that by avoiding the subjects of national security, foreign policy and military preparedness. Nor can we let our national security agenda be defined by those who reflexively oppose any U.S. military intervention anywhere...who see U.S. power as mostly a malignant force in world politics...who place a higher value on achieving multilateral consensus than necessarily protecting our vital interests.

Americans deserve better than a false choice between force without diplomacy and diplomacy without force. I believe they deserve a principled diplomacy...backed by undoubted military might...based on enlightened self-interest, not the zero-sum logic of power politics...a diplomacy that commits America to lead the world toward liberty and prosperity. A bold, progressive internationalism that focuses not just on the immediate and the imminent but insidious dangers that can mount over the next years and decades, dangers that span the spectrum from the denial of democracy, to destructive weapons, endemic poverty and epidemic disease. These are, in the truest sense, not just issues of international order and security, but vital issues of our own national security.

So how would this approach, this bold progressive internationalism, differ from the Bush Administration's erratic unilateralism and reluctant engagement? The answer starts by understanding the nature and source of the threat we face.

While we must remain determined to defeat terrorism, it isn't only terrorism we are fighting. It's the beliefs that motivate terrorists. A new ideology of hatred and intolerance has arisen to challenge America and liberal democracy. It seeks a war of Islam - as defined by extremists - against the rest of the world and we must be clear its epicenter is the Greater Middle East.

It's critical that we recognize the conditions that are breeding this virulent new form of anti-American terrorism. If you look at countries stretching from Morocco through the Middle East and beyond...broadly speaking the western Muslim world...what you see is a civilization under extraordinary stress.
The region's political and economic crisis is vividly captured in a recent report written by Arab scholars for the United Nations Development Program and the Arab Fund for Social and Economic Development. Let me quote:

"The wave of democracy that transformed governance in most of the world has barely reached the Arab states...The freedom deficit undermines human development and is one of the most painful manifestations of lagging political development."

According to Freedom House, there are no full-fledged democracies among the 16 Arab states of the Middle East and North Africa. The Middle East is not monolithic; there are governments making progress and struggling effectively with change in Jordan, Morocco and Qatar. But Iraq, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and Syria are among the 10 least free nations in the world.

Political and economic participation among Arab women is the lowest in the world and more than half of Arab women are still illiterate.

And these countries are among the most economically isolated in the world, with very little trade apart from the oil royalties which flow to those at the very top. Since 1980, the share of world trade held by the 57 member countries of the Organization of the Islamic Conference has fallen from 15 percent to just four percent. The same countries attracted only $13.6 billion worth of foreign direct investment in 2001. That is just $600 million - only about 5 % - more than Sweden, which has only 9 million people compared to 1.3 billion people. In 1969, the GDP of South Korea and Egypt were almost identical. Today, South Korea boasts one of the 20 largest economies in the world while Egypt's remains economically frozen almost exactly where it was thirty years before.

A combination of harsh political repression, economic stagnation, lack of education and opportunity, and rapid population growth has proven simply explosive. The streets are full of young people who have no jobs... no prospects... no voice. State-controlled media encourage a culture of self-pity, victimhood and blame-shifting. This is the breeding ground for present and future hostility to the West and our values.

From this perspective, it's clear that we need more than a one-dimensional war on terror. Of course we need to hunt down and destroy those who are plotting mass murder against Americans and innocent people from Africa to Asia to Europe. We must drain the swamps of terrorists; but you don't have a prayer of doing so if you leave the poisoned sources to gather and flow again. That means we must help the vast majority people of the greater Middle East build a better future. We need to illuminate an alternative path to a futile Jihad against the world...a path that leads to deeper integration of the greater Middle East into the modern world order.

The Bush Administration has a plan for waging war but no plan for winning the peace. It has invested mightily in the tools of destruction but meagerly in the tools of peaceful construction. It offers the peoples in the greater Middle East retribution and war but little hope for liberty and prosperity.

What America needs today is a smarter, more comprehensive and far-sighted strategy for modernizing the greater Middle East. It should draw on all of our nation's strengths: military might, the world's largest economy, the immense moral prestige of freedom and democracy - and our powerful alliances.

Let me emphasize that last asset in this mission: our alliances. This isn't a task that we should or need to shoulder alone. If anything, our transatlantic partners have a greater interest than we do in an economic and political transformation in the greater Middle East. They are closer to the front lines. More heavily dependent on oil imports. Prime magnets for immigrants seeking jobs. Easier to reach with missiles and just as vulnerable to terrorism.

Meanwhile, NATO is searching for a new mission. What better way to revitalize the most successful and enduring alliance in history, then to reorient it around a common threat to the global system that we have built over more than a half-century of struggle and sacrifice? The Administration has tried to focus NATO on the Middle East, but it's high-handed treatment of our European allies, on everything from Iraq to the Kyoto climate change treaty, has strained relations nearly to the breaking point.

We can do better. With creative leadership, the U.S. can enlist our allies in a sustained multilateral campaign to build bridges between the community of democracies and the greater Middle East - not just for them, but for us.

Here, in my view, is what this strategy should look like.

First, destroying al Qaeda and other anti-American terror groups must remain our top priority. While the Administration has largely prosecuted this war with vigor, it also has made costly mistakes. The biggest, in my view, was their reluctance to translate their robust rhetoric into American military engagement in Afghanistan. They relied too much on local warlords to carry the fight against our enemies and this permitted many al Qaeda members, and according to evidence, including Osama bin Laden himself, to slip through our fingers. Now the Administration must redouble its efforts to track them down. And we need to pressure Pakistan to get control of its territories along the Afghanistan border, which have become a haven for terrorists.

Second, without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. We all know the litany of his offenses.

He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. He miscalculated an eight-year war with Iran. He miscalculated the invasion of Kuwait. He miscalculated America's response to that act of naked aggression. He miscalculated the result of setting oil rigs on fire. He miscalculated the impact of sending scuds into Israel and trying to assassinate an American President. He miscalculated his own military strength. He miscalculated the Arab world's response to his misconduct. And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction.

That is why the world, through the United Nations Security Council, has spoken with one voice, demanding that Iraq disclose its weapons programs and disarm.

So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but it is not new. It has been with us since the end of the Persian Gulf War. Regrettably the current Administration failed to take the opportunity to bring this issue to the United Nations two years ago or immediately after September 11th, when we had such unity of spirit with our allies. When it finally did speak, it was with hasty war talk instead of a coherent call for Iraqi disarmament. And that made it possible for other Arab regimes to shift their focus to the perils of war for themselves rather than keeping the focus on the perils posed by Saddam's deadly arsenal. Indeed, for a time, the Administration's unilateralism, in effect, elevated Saddam in the eyes of his neighbors to a level he never would have achieved on his own, undermining America's standing with most of the coalition partners which had joined us in repelling the invasion of Kuwait a decade ago.

In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing. But the burden is also clearly on the Bush Administration to do the hard work of building a broad coalition at the U.N. and the necessary work of educating America about the rationale for war.

As I have said frequently and repeat here today, the United States should never go to war because it wants to, the United States should go to war because we have to. And we don't have to until we have exhausted the remedies available, built legitimacy and earned the consent of the American people, absent, of course, an imminent threat requiring urgent action.

The Administration must pass this test. I believe they must take the time to do the hard work of diplomacy. They must do a better job of making their case to the American people and to the world.

I have no doubt of the outcome of war itself should it be necessary. We will win. But what matters is not just what we win but what we lose. We need to make certain that we have not unnecessarily twisted so many arms, created so many reluctant partners, abused the trust of Congress, or strained so many relations, that the longer term and more immediate vital war on terror is made more difficult. And we should be particularly concerned that we do not go alone or essentially alone if we can avoid it, because the complications and costs of post-war Iraq would be far better managed and shared with United Nation's participation. And, while American security must never be ceded to any institution or to another institution's decision, I say to the President, show respect for the process of international diplomacy because it is not only right, it can make America stronger - and show the world some appropriate patience in building a genuine coalition. Mr. President, do not rush to war.

And I say to the United Nations, show respect for your own mandates. Do not find refuge in excuses and equivocation. Stand up for the rule of law, not just in words but in deeds. Not just in theory but in reality. Stand up for our common goal: either bringing about Iraq's peaceful disarmament or the decisive military victory of a multilateral coalition.

Third, as we continue our focus on the greater Middle East, the U.S. must look beyond stability alone as the linchpin of our relationships. We must place increased focus on the development of democratic values and human rights as the keys to long-term security. If we learned anything from our failure in Vietnam it is that regimes removed from the people cannot permanently endure. They must reform or they will finally crumble, despite the efforts of the United States. We must side with and strengthen the aspirations of those seeking positive change. America needs to be on the side of the people, not the regimes that keep them down.
In the 1950s, as the sun was setting on European colonialism, a young Senator named John Kennedy went to the Senate floor and urged the Eisenhower Administration not to back France against a rebellious Algeria. He recognized that the United States could only win the Cold War by staying true to our values, by championing the independence of those aspiring to be free.

What's at issue today is not U.S. support for colonial powers out of touch with history, but for autocratic regimes out of touch with their own people.

We as Americans must be agents of hope as well as enemies of terrorism. We must help bring modernity to the greater Middle East. We must make significant investments in the education and human infrastructure in developing countries. The globalization of the last decade taught us that simple measures like buying books and family planning can expose, rebut, isolate and defeat the apostles of hate so that children are no longer brainwashed into becoming suicide bombers and terrorists are deprived the ideological breeding grounds. I believe we must reform and increase our global aid to strengthen our focus on the missions of education and health --of freedom for women -- and economic development for all.

The U.S. should take a page from our Cold War playbook. No one expected communism to fall as suddenly as it did. But that didn't prevent us from expanding society-to-society aid to support human rights groups, independent media and labor unions and other groups dedicated to building a democratic culture from the ground up. Democracy won't come to the greater Middle East overnight, but the U.S. should start by supporting the region's democrats in their struggles against repressive regimes or by working with those which take genuine steps towards change.
We must embark on a major initiative of public diplomacy to bridge the divide between Islam and the rest of the world. We must make avoidance of the clash of civilizations the work of our generation: Engaging in a new effort to bring to the table a new face of the Arab world -- Muslim clerics, mullahs, imams and secular leaders -- demonstrating for the entire world a peaceful religion which can play an enormous role in isolating and rebutting those practitioners who would pervert Islam's true message.

Fourth, The Middle East isn't on the Bush Administration's trade agenda. We need to put it there.
The United States and its transatlantic partners should launch a high-profile Middle East trade initiative designed to stop the economic regression in the Middle East and spark investment, trade and growth in the region. It should aim at dismantling trade barriers that are among the highest in the world, encouraging participation in world trade policy and ending the deep economic isolation of many of the region's countries.

I propose the following policy goals:
We should build on the success of Clinton Administration's Jordan Free Trade Agreement. Since the United States reduced tariffs on goods made in "qualifying industrial zones," Jordan's exports to the US jumped from $16 to $400 million, creating about 40,000 jobs. Let's provide similar incentives to other countries that agree to join the WTO, stop boycotting Israel and supporting Palestinian violence against Israel, and open up their economies.

We should also create a general duty-free program for the region, just as we've done in the Caribbean Basin Initiative and the Andean Trade Preference Act. Again, we should set some conditions: full cooperation in the war on terror, anti-corruption measures, non-compliance with the Israel boycott, respect for core labor standards and progress toward human rights.

Let's be clear: Our goal is not to impose some western free market ideology on the greater Middle East. It's to open up a region that is now closed to opportunity, an outpost of economic exclusion and stagnation in a fast-globalizing world.

These countries suffer from too little globalization, not too much. Without greater investment, without greater trade within the region and with the outside world, without the transparency and legal protections that modern economies need to thrive, how will these countries ever be able to grow fast enough to provide jobs and better living standards for their people? But as we extend the benefits of globalization to people in the greater Middle East and the developing world in general, we also need to confront globalization's dark side.

We should use the leverage of capital flows and trade to lift, not lower, international labor and environmental standards. We should strengthen the IMF's ability to prevent financial panics from turning into full-scale economic meltdowns such as we've seen in Argentina. And in the Middle East especially, we need to be sensitive to fears that globalization will corrupt or completely submerge traditional cultures and mores. We can do these things.

Fifth, and finally, we must have a new vision and a renewed engagement to reinvigorate the Mideast peace process. This Administration made a grave error when it disregarded almost seventy years of American friendship and leadership in the Middle East and the efforts of every President of the last 30 years. A great nation like ours should not be dragged kicking and resisting - should not have to be pressured to the task of making peace. A great nation like ours should be leading the effort to make peace or we risk encouraging through our inaction the worst instincts of an already troubled region.

Israel is our ally, the only true democracy in this troubled region, and we know that Israel as a partner is fundamental to our security. From Truman through Clinton, America has always been committed to Israel's independence and survival - we will never waver.

Israel's security will be best assured over the long term if real and lasting peace can be brought to the Middle East. I know from my own trips to Israel that the majority of the Israeli people understand and expect that one day there will be a Palestinian state. Their frustration is that they do not see a committed partner in peace on the Palestinian side. Palestinians must stop the violence - this is the fundamental building block of the peace process. The Palestinian leadership must be reformed, not only for the future of the Palestinian people but also for the sake of peace. I believe Israel would respond to this new partner after all, Israel has already indicated its willingness to freeze settlements and to move toward the establishment of a Palestinian state as part of a comprehensive peace process.

Without demanding unilateral concessions, the United States must mediate a series of confidence building steps which start down the road to peace. Both parties must walk this path together - simultaneously. And the world can help them do it. While maintaining our long term commitment to Israel's existence and security, the United States must work to keep both sides focused on the end game of peace. Extremists must not be allowed to control this process. American engagement and successful mediation are not only essential to peace in this war-torn area but also critical to the success of our own efforts in the war against terrorism. When I visited the region last year, in meetings with King Abdullah of Jordan, President Mubarak of Egypt, and Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, it became clear that September 11th had changed the imperatives of these countries. The Bush Administration has missed an opportunity to enlist much greater support in the peace process and needs to focus on this urgent priority- now.

The transformation of the Middle East which can come from these efforts will determine much of our future - but we must also look to the challenges on the rest of the planet. We must build a new and more effective role for the United States in the rest of this complex world.

The central challenge for the United States is to undertake and lead the most global, comprehensive effort in history to deal with proliferation generally and nuclear weapons lost or loose in a dangerous world specifically. It is no secret that there are those lurking in the shadows eager to capitalize on a deadly market for nuclear materials held in insecure facilities around the world.

Five years ago, authorities seized a nuclear fuel rod that had been stolen from the
Congo. The security guard entrusted with protecting it had simply lent out his keys to the storage facility. Two years later, even after near disaster, the facility was guarded only by a few underpaid guards, rusty gates, and a simple padlock.

The potential consequences are fearful and undeniable. In October 2001, we picked up warnings that terrorists had acquired a 10-kiloton nuclear bomb. If detonated in New York City, hundreds of thousands of Americans would have died, and most of Manhattan would have been destroyed. Sam Nunn had an important warning, "This intelligence report was judged to be false. But it was never judged to be implausible or impossible."

This Administration's approach to the menace of loose nuclear materials is strong on rhetoric, but short on execution. It relies primarily and unwisely on the threat of military preemption against terrorist organizations, which can be defeated if they are found, but will not be deterred by our military might.
>>>>>>>>>>
more
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2003_0123.html
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. That's probably the best overall look at his foreign policy. There's also
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Interesting material, thanks!
How would you summarize Kerry's approach to "Progressive Internationalism" in brief, say, less than a hundred words?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I'm not here to put words into Kerry's mouth.
That appears to be your role.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I only asked questions
Where did I ever "put words in Kerry's mouth"?

Far from it.

You appear to be putting words in mine.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Actually you 'assumed' Kerry agreed with the position you posted
Edited on Sat Mar-06-04 06:55 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
and asked people to defend the position he doesn't hold.


We responded by posting Kerry's actual foreign policy, which you've ignored.

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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. So you "assume" that I don't like something
Edited on Sat Mar-06-04 06:55 PM by 0rganism
When did I ask anyone to defend anything? I asked people to post what they thought something would be like, and if they thought Kerry would take certain positions. Nothing more, nothing less. If you got defensive, that's your problem.

Why do you say I've IGNORED Kerry's policies, when I've actually been carefully reading the speech that blm was kind enough to post?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. The crux of the matter is, you posted a PPI position paper and implied
that it was Kerry's position.

I don't understand why.


And I don't understand how you can pretend that's not what you did when anyone reading this will see it for themselves.

If you are reading Kerry's speech, great, maybe you'd like to discuss that. If we want to discuss Kerry's foreign policy position, that would be appropriate source material.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. Now I see the source of our misunderstanding
The common perception of John Kerry is that he's been an active member of the DLC, with which the PPI is affiliated. So the notion that their position paper would be within the scope of his overall policy -- especially when both are using the term "Progressive Internationalism" prominently -- didn't seem as outrageous to me as it does to you. You are more concerned with the specific positions expressed as part of the Kerry For President campaign. I am not asking only for those positions, which anyone is quite capable of reading for him/herself at the Kerry campaign site. My question is rather what YOU would imagine his administration doing, if elected. In particular, would any of the policies I suggested be achievable in his tenure?

Perhaps your opinion of Kerry's foreign policy, or what can be safely said about it, goes exactly as far as his campaign website states on each and every issue. If you think so, then fine, a link to the Kerry site suffices. I'm certainly interested in what Kerry has said, but also in what you think he'll do that he hasn't said.

However, now that you bring it up, I'm going to ask you a somewhat different question. How would you describe the differences between the PPI positions and those of candidate Kerry? In other words, in what ways is the PPI document NOT reflective of Kerry's expressed position?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. It's not a misunderstanding - it's a misleading characterization
on your part.

My opinion of Kerry's foreign policy is based on his record and statements, not on your biased and false characterizations.

PPI is not relevant to a discussion of Kerry's foreign policy.

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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. "PPI is not relevant to a discussion of Kerry's foreign policy"
You really believe that? OK, fine with me.

Now that you've read their position paper, can you contrast it with what you anticipate as Kerry's approach to foreign policy? If you believe the PPI and Kerry have completely disparate views of what "Progressive Internationalism" means (and yes, they both use the term) can you explain what you think the differences are?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. If you want to show in what way it is relevant, make your case.
I've already stated that I think the relevant thing to look at when judging Kerry's foreign policy is his record, and statements. I feel no compulsion to complete any 'compare and contrast' assignment that you hand down. If you wish to make an argument, do so. If I have an opposing view, I will state it.

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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #45
57. If you need to see why it's relevant, look at this thread
Not just at the posts you agree with. You'll see why it's relevant: several people seem to think Kerry is a DLC tool of neo-liberalism. Of all the people who've posted here, only you have taken issue with the assumption that Kerry's policy position differs from that expressed by the PPI. Now it's a legitimate disagreement, and I'm inviting you to elaborate on it.

If you think your God-given task is to flame the local heretics, then by all means feel free to ignore the question and get on with your job.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #57
59. I'm asking you politely and respectfully to present your argument.
Edited on Sun Mar-07-04 01:00 AM by Feanorcurufinwe
Please.

Why is the PPI relevant to John Kerry?


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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #59
64. Have a look at the words they use
From the Kerry speech posted by blm in this thread:
"That vision is defined by looking to our best traditions -- the tough-minded strategy of international engagement and leadership forged by Wilson and Roosevelt in two world wars and championed by Truman and Kennedy in the Cold War..."

From the PPI:
"...we are proud of our party's tradition of tough-minded internationalism and strong record in defending America. Presidents Woodrow Wilson, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry Truman led the United States to victory in two world wars and championed by Truman and Kennedy in the Cold War..."

It's a safe bet that there's a bit of crossover in the phrasing, wouldn't you say?

This isn't surprising. John Kerry is a prominent member of the DLC, with which the PPI has a lot in common -- including network addresses!
$nslookup www.dlc.org
Name: www.dlc.org
Address: 66.151.110.82

$ nslookup www.ndol.org
Name: www.ndol.org
Address: 66.151.110.82

$ nslookup www.ppionline.org
Name: ppionline.org
Address: 66.151.110.85
Aliases: www.ppionline.org
Imagine!

That's not all, of course. PPI and DLC also share Al From and Will Marshall, among others. Asking why the PPI is relevant to John Kerry is very much like asking why the DLC is relevant to John Kerry.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #64
72. So they use some of the same words in different contexts?
They both use the words "tradition", "tough-minded", and the phrase " in two world wars"

that is damning criticism.


I submit, you are right, there is no reason to actually go a step farther and examine what the actual ideas presented are. :eyes:

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WitchWay Donating Member (558 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #18
65. A bold progressive internationalism
Edited on Sun Mar-07-04 03:29 AM by WitchWay
John Kerry DIRECTLY refers to the progressive internationalism on his own website.

see John Kerry's Foreign Policy Statment on his website linked below...he gives direct reference to "progressive internationalism" and please read the paper on it CAREFULLY because there are things in it that are troubling.

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/foreignpolicy

“Americans deserve a principled diplomacy...backed by undoubted military might...based on enlightened self-interest, not the zero-sum logic of power politics...a diplomacy that commits America to lead the world toward liberty and prosperity. A bold progressive internationalism that focuses not just on the immediate and imminent, but insidious dangers that can mount over the next years and decade, dangers that span the spectrum from the denial of democracy, to destructive weapons, endemic poverty and epidemic disease. These are not just issues of international order, but vital issues of our own national security.” -John Kerry
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. Access to a freer, fairer, healthier world environmentally & economically
while being mindful and attentive to cultural and national security concerns of all nations.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. n/t
Edited on Sat Mar-06-04 06:45 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
responded to wrong message

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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. Thanks. That's what I'm trying to find out.
I'm glad you understand what I'm asking about.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #10
41. Well stated....in only 24 words, too.
:toast:
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
43. I can describe it in 9 words
The same old PNAC in a shiny new wrapper. :puke:
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. So you want everyone to KNOW you didn't read the actual speech?
Hmmm...most people try to hide the fact they never read something or that they didn't understand it and took the lazy way out using an inaccurate stereotype.
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #44
73. I read the goddamn speech
More importantly, I read between the lines. Just as I did when I read the documents on the PNAC website. In between running to the toilet to :puke: my guts out, that is.

There is no such thing as "progressive" imperialism.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
7. Let's assume you agree with that worldview, and judge you accordingly.
"Assuming Kerry generally agrees with this worldview"
:eyes:

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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Surely, if I were running for president, I'd hope you'd want to know
Do you think Kerry disagrees with the PPI on this idea? His speech, posted by blm, appears to flesh out the notion of "Progressive Internationalism" quite a bit, consistent with the PPI document. I think it's a safe assumption.

I am not judging John Kerry. I'm trying to find out where his supporters and detractors think he stands.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Let's assume you agree with it.
And let's assume that Bush pulls all troops out of Iraq tomorrow. Do you think Bush agrees with Chirac on the head scarf issue?


If people want to know about John Kerry's foreign policy, they should read the speeches we linked to, as well as this one: http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2003_1216.html


and his foreign policy issue page: http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/foreignpolicy

another good source would be to examine his foreign policy voting record at vote-smart:
http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=S0421103


If they want to know about the Progressive Policy Institute, they should follow your links.



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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. So let's assume you go with what Kerry has on his site
when imagining what his foreign policy will look like. Does that mean you think President Kerry will try to reinstate the the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty that he fought to maintain?

Can you even answer that much without getting pissy?
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. Yes I would expect that
Edited on Sat Mar-06-04 07:07 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
he stands by the positions he has consistently held over his career, so yes.



“The central challenge for the United States is to undertake to lead the most global, comprehensive effort in history to deal with proliferation and nuclear weapons lost or loose in a dangerous world.”

Senator Kerry has been an outspoken proponent of arms control and non-proliferation measures in the Senate. He fought against withdrawal from the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, which he viewed as a step backwards in our efforts to promote an international non-proliferation regime. “U.S. rejection of the Treaty would undermine the credibility of U.S. leadership on non-proliferation,” he said in a floor statement, “which will jeopardize U.S. work to prevent North Korea from developing nuclear weapons…and to block the sale of sensitive technologies that could contribute to proliferation.” When the Administration sought ratification of a nuclear arms reduction agreement with Russia that lacked verification procedures, Kerry proposed an amendment requiring annual monitoring reports. “The Treaty runs the risk of increasing the danger of nuclear theft by stockpiling thousands of warheads,” he said, “if we are to make America safer, and we must, it will take more than cosmetic treaties that leave Russia's nuclear arsenal in place.”

In order to address the threat to our national security posed by unsecured weapons of mass destruction, Senator Kerry supported legislation providing American expertise and funding to the nations of the former Soviet Union to help secure nuclear stockpiles, a program that he now supports extending to other countries, and he has recently called for a major new international initiative to confront this problem. “It is time for the most determined, all-out effort ever initiated to secure the world’s nuclear materials and weapons of mass destruction” he said, “the only answer the clear imperative is a multi-lateral framework implementing global consensus that weapons of mass destruction under the control of terrorists represents the most serious threat to international security today, and warrants an urgent and global response.”
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/foreignpolicy


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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
16. I don't know what Kerry's foreign policy is going to "look like," but...
as far as the PPI goes, they advocate a policy of American hegemony and imperialism that can best be described as PNAC-Lite.

The PPI would applaud a Venezuela coup just as PNAC did.

A just empire?

Talk of empire is discomforting. Even if it might be possible to isolate and extract the most liberal and beneficial lessons of the British experience in India, can any empire, however benign, be counted morally just? To venture an answer to that question, we would do well to consider the moral arguments surrounding European colonialism.

Much of the debate over the moral status of European colonialism turns on economic questions. Colonialism’s defenders stress the lasting investment in productive forces made by the colonizer on behalf of the colonized. Critics of colonialism highlight transfers of wealth from the colonized country to the seat of empire. In a sense, as David B. Abernathy notes in his recent and very useful moral assessment of European colonialism, each side in this debate accepts the ethical premises of the other.7 That is why colonialism’s critics play down investment, while colonialism’s defenders play down wealth transfer. In these terms, the British experience in India was clearly one in which the investment of productive forces was high — with the improvements in transportation and communication sponsored by liberal colonial administrators like John Stuart Mill looming particularly large.

Yet the debate over the moral status of colonialism is bedeviled by deeper dilemmas. Take the problem of the “counterfactual.” Defenders of empire assume that the economic and political development stimulated by European rule would not have occurred in the absence of colonialism. Yet, by pointing to the example of Japan, critics of colonialism claim that, if left to their own devices, most conquered countries would have modernized even without European rule. I have argued that the Japanese example is the exception, not the rule. But since the counterfactual (i.e., what would have happened without colonialism) is formally unknowable, it is difficult to reach agreement on this issue.

And unlike calculations of investment or profit, certain critical moral criteria may be impossible to compromise or modulate. Implicitly, both sides in the colonialism debate agree that contempt for the race, cultural practices, or historical accomplishments of a colonized people is deplorable. But while some instances of European rule may have been more or less bigoted than others, even the fairest and most respectful instance of colonial rule may be inherently humiliating to the colonized. That may explain why defenders of colonialism have almost nothing to say about complaints of humiliation. That silence may indicate implicit moral agreement with the critics of empire, an affirmation of the one unanswerable argument of colonialism’s critics.

http://www.policyreview.org/apr03/kurtz.html
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. The PPI documents are much better written than PNAC, and say things in

a much nicer way.

That may not sound like much, but how you say it is more important to a lot of people than what you say.

PPI puts it into words that sound less grating than PNAC and will appeal to more voters.

With his exceptional oratory and language skills, Kerry is a terrific spokesman for the PPI Doctrine.

I guess if you want to quibble, sure the net effect won't be that different, but the natives in America's properties around the globe can't vote, so that's not a problem.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. Just bash both organizations & support the candidate you believe in.
Who is that, by the way? Who or what are you FOR? We all know you think Kerry should not be President, apparently because of the words you are putting into his mouth via the PPI, but who do you think should be President? What are you advocating, or are you simply against everything and everybody?

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. DF wants everyone to believe Kerry and Bush are the same.
Typical voter suppression tactic.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. see post 17 here, post 85 in link below
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. That doesn't tell us what you are advocating. We know you hate Kerry.
Edited on Sat Mar-06-04 08:29 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
Who or what are you in FAVOR of? Is there any such thing? Let's just assume for the sake of argument that your false premise that the Democrats and Republicans are the same is actually true -- what conclusion do draw from that? What should we do? In your opinion, How can we take action to make the world a better place?

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
38. COINTELPRO?
Edited on Sat Mar-06-04 07:42 PM by blm
Quite possibly.

MO....make them think you're from the left (ie David Horowitz).......
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Awww, I was hoping you would accuse me of being Al Qaeda

COINTELPRO is so...Reagan.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. What are you advocating? What are you in favor of?
Do you spend as much time on Republican websites telling them that Bush is the same as a Democrat as you spend here attacking Kerry?


Are you for anything? What is it? Or are you just anti-everything?

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Well, Al Qaeda are rightists and your style is that of a leftist
Edited on Sat Mar-06-04 08:30 PM by blm
as employed by COINTELPRO and other operatives for the beasts.

Promote the idea there is no difference between the two parties to suppress voter turnout on the left.

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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. For the tenth time, if by "left" you mean the small minority of voters

who oppose US policies themselves no matter who implements them.

You do, however need the much larger number of voters who would welcome some cosmetic changes in those policies, and would also welcome a president who articulates them better, and makes them sound better.

I don't really think bush needs your help in trying to send a message to those voters that Kerry is some kind of a leftist. He has the money to hire some very good professionals to do that.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. HAHAHA...such technique. Too bad. Bush will lose and the status quo
Edited on Sat Mar-06-04 09:06 PM by blm
you are really protecting (by coyly implying there is no difference between Bush and Kerry) will be no more.

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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. There are some very important differences between bush and Kerry

Sure, they are differences more of style than substance, and if you want to argue that it's a shame that style is so important in politics, and in US culture in general, I'll agree with you.

But if you want to beat bush, you will have to do so within the framework of reality.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Why won't you tell us what you are in favor of?
Edited on Sat Mar-06-04 10:27 PM by Feanorcurufinwe
Assuming for the sake of argument that your false premise is actually valid, what conclusion do you draw? In the Presidential election of 2004, who should people vote for? Or what other actions can people take in order to help the world become a better place? What goals should we work towards and what steps can we take to move in the direction of those goals?

Just wondering if you have any opinions, or if your sole purpose is to attack Kerry.

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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
17. A friendlier, gentler, more lovable militarism
President Kerry will seek to pound foreign nations into submission, but much more nicely than pResident Bush. He will share the loot with fellow imperialists in Europe to a greater degree.

He will not push for a nuclear test ban treaty. Though he'll understand the case for it, he is a practical man who knows all too well that any pact limiting US power is not going to be acceptable to the American owning class. Therefore, this & related measures will be quietly shoved aside.

Ditto an ICC. Such a measure could well put American leaders & commanders in the docket; the American political elite will not accept it. President Kerry will wisely defer to their judgement.

Ditto cluster bombs, DU shells, landmines. After a campaign in which he will endlessly speak of his medals, his military service, & his dedication to "keeping America strong," he will not commit suicide by striving to rein in implements much beloved by the Pentagon.

Kerry might consider limiting CO2 emissions. This is an area where he might conceivably make a stand.

Trade agreements - my impression is that the ones we're already in, can't really be modified. They can be revoked, but Kerry has made it clear he won't do this. If new agreements are to be negotiated, I'd look for modestly greater efforts at incorporating environmental & labor standards.

Generally, the Kerry foreign policy will be more cautious, & above all more multilateral, than the Bush version. He will start fewer wars, & will only do so in concert with allies. He will not thumb his nose at the UN. However, he will not abandon the occupation of Iraq, & the efforts to fully integrate it into the US orbit. He will continue the Bush policy of portraying the Iraq project as an attempt to build democracy, even as it really amounts to a vast looting & global domination scheme. The huge US military bases under construction in Iraq will be completed & fully staffed, & will remain there for the entire Kerry presidency & beyond.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. You've got Kerry mixed up with some cartoon character.
Or Dr. Evil, maybe.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:28 PM
Response to Original message
35. This is a satire of the socialists who publish the Newstatesman, right?
You accurately ridiculed all of thier arguments.

But are they worthy of being satirized?

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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. Not exactly. I did read their article, and it got me thinking
I was wondering to what extent the "mischaracterization" of which Feanorcurufinwe accuses me is an accurate portrayal of lefty opinions of President Kerry. I think Pilger's article is assinine, and quotes PPI largely out of context, but it did make me wonder what sort of policies people at DU expect from Kerry's presidency.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #39
48. So you do or don't already know what Kerry's positions are?
In case you're genuinely curious, Kerry has taken leading positions on these issues:


  • Favors Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty
  • Fought for ICC "exploratory process" against Helms, supports ICC today, with some provisios
  • Fought for ban on Landmines, parallel with McKinney legislation, co-sponsored Landmine Elimination and Victim Assistance Act of 2001
  • Cluster Bombs--I really don't know, but Kerry has tended to express humane views on issues of indiscriminate killing of civilians, while being fully supportive and protective of armed service personel.
  • Carbon Dioxide Emisions. Kerry led negotiations for Kyoto Protocol.
  • Trade Agreements. There was the Kerry Amendment to Fast Track. His amendment didn't pass, but if you want to know what he means by syaing he favors "labor and environmental standards", you could start by looking that up.

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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-06-04 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. Not as well as you do, obviously
That's one of the reasons I'm asking. It's helpful to mmy discovery to read input from people who do follow Kerry's career more closely than I have. The real Kerry fans should have some pretty clear ideas of what to expect if he wins the election. Likewise, there are those here who appear to dislike Mr. Kerry with an intensity usually reserved for republicans; they might have a rationale as well.

I am genuinely curious, not just about what Kerry will promise in the primary campaign rhetoric (which will be energizing the base) or in the general campaign rhetoric (which will be moderated for "swing" voters) but in what his positions are likely to to be once elected, in the opinions of those who track his legislative and activist career. Obviously, there's nothing factual yet, all we have to go on are hypotheticals. "If he wins" is one hypothetical, "if President Kerry administrates like Senator Kerry's legislated" is another, "if he does what he promises during the campaign" is still another.

Later on, we can talk about consistency. Right now, the job is to get him elected. I want to know what others envision coming from his presidency.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. Why would Kerry supporters speculate he is going to do something other
than what he has said he is going to do?

Why do you want us to rephrase what Kerry has said? It makes no sense. We aren't the ones running for President. Kerry is. He states his own case much better than I could.

Personally I don't try to predict the future so I don't know what events will happen in the international sphere for Kerry to deal with. All I know is what he has said his approach would be in different areas, the statements he's made and the actions he's taken in the past. I don't have a 'vision' of Kerry's foreign policy different from the vision he has enunciated.

Perhaps you'd be interested in this article with much background about how Kerry has arrived at his attitudes in the foreign policy sphere:

Kerry's World: Father Knows Best

By the time John Kerry's father, Richard, published his only book, The Star-Spangled Mirror, in 1990, he should have been a mellow man. Nearly 30 years had passed since his retirement from the Foreign Service, where he'd filled mid-level posts in Washington, Berlin, and Oslo. His central issue, the cold war, had followed him into retirement with the crumbling of the Berlin Wall and rise of glasnost in Russia. When the 75-year-old Kerry wasn't working on his book, he could be found building model ships and sailing off Cape Cod. If he had any reasons for professional bitterness, they should have long since faded.

None of these facts, however, becalmed him. His book has a young man's brash, polemical tone. The Star-Spangled Mirror is a critique of moralism in America's foreign policy -- and, more than that, it is a critique of America's national character.

"Americans," he writes, "are inclined to see the world and foreign affairs in black and white." They celebrate their own form of government and denigrate all others, making them guilty of what he calls "ethnocentric accommodation -- everyone ought to be like us." As a result, America has committed the "fatal error" of "propagating democracy" and fallen prey to "the siren's song of promoting human rights," falsely assuming that our values and institutions are a good fit in the Third World. And, just as Americans exaggerate their own goodness, they exaggerate their enemies' badness. The Soviet Union wasn't nearly as imperialistic as American politicians warned, Kerry argues. "Seeing the Soviet Union as the aggressor in every instance, and the U.S. as only reacting defensively, relieves an American observer from the need to see any parallel between our use of military power in distant parts of the world, and the Soviet use of military power outside the Soviet Union," he writes. He further claims that "Third world Marxist movements were autonomous national movements" -- outside Moscow's orbit. The book culminates in a plea for a hardheaded, realist foreign policy that removes any pretense of U.S. moral superiority.

<snip - much very interesting material removed>

There are differences, to be sure, between Richard and John Kerry. Over the course of his political career, John Kerry has occasionally endorsed the use of force, as in the cases of Panama and Kosovo, and he has always found a rhetorical place for morality in his foreign policy pronouncements. But, more often than not, even as John Kerry stumps for president, the similarities shine through. Last month, for example, Kerry charged that the administration's "high-handed treatment of our European allies, on everything from Iraq to the Kyoto climate-change treaty, has strained relations nearly to the breaking point." It should be no surprise to hear John Kerry worry about European allies and to strike such liberal internationalist notes. These ideas aren't just deeply felt; they're in his blood.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/02/opinion/main603542.shtml


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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 01:24 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. Because they know he's a politician? Because some things are implicit?
I think the (excellent) article you just posted is a solid example of someone giving a higher-level view of John Kerry's motivations outside of what he's said himself during the campaign. Now if you hadn't pointed this out to me, I might not have seen it, and now be reading it.

> Why do you want us to rephrase what Kerry has said?

I could read something Kerry says and understand it differently than the next person, for whatever reason. Communication is not a perfected science. Sometimes, by rephrasing a position, one can clarify it further to those who lack the same background. Why is this useful? For instance, without such assistance, the uninformed might think that John Kerry and the PPI mean the same thing when they speak of "Progressive Internationalism."

How else are you going to help others here share your confidence in candidate Kerry? There are Democratic activists who post here, still smarting from the defeat of their favorites, looking for reasons to actively support John Kerry before the election. I have no doubt most of us will pull the lever for Kerry in November; what we need from Kerry's supporters right now is positive motivation to get us fighting for him long before then. We need a shared vision from the enthusiastic, and -- pardon the metaphor -- we need to catch your disease. We need something to anticipate (other than "not bush").

You don't necessarily have to go outside what Kerry himself says, just finding his content and distilling it, as blm did earlier, can help. Communication will bring us together, misunderstanding will pull us apart.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #56
61. I don't have any special knowledge--just the bullshit detector
that came with my copy of google.

I think the straightup thing to do when you come across some bullshit propaganda that raises questions in your mind is not to regurgitate it without even pointing to the source, but to do some investigating and cogitating on your own, and then if you have lacunae in your knowledge or topics you want to explore you can ask people who care about those topics for input and discussion.
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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. but you are special! really!
Edited on Sun Mar-07-04 01:39 AM by 0rganism
> the straightup thing to do when you come across some bullshit
> propaganda that raises questions in your mind is not to regurgitate
> it without even pointing to the source

First off, I didn't "regurgitate propaganda" -- at least as far as I can tell. I took the questions I had and openly gave them to the forum for discussion. No need to quote the inflammatory Pilger article, I thought, when there are people at DU who can cover the opinion spectrum far better than him alone. I've already read Pilger's opinion of Kerry. Now I want to read about yours.

And not just the beeping of the bullshit detector you got with your "copy" of google. I don't want your opinion of Pilger or his articles or the journals that publish them, I want your opinion of John Kerry.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. regurgitate--that's a figure of speech
Like when you repeat the phrases and arguments somebody else has presented, and there's no sign you gave any thought to them or even to repeating them. Like it was involuntary, you know.

I take as a sign that you were regurgitating Mr. Pilger's article the fact that you repeated his list of so-called questions--really, it's quite a ridiculuous assortment of charges to level at Senator Kerry, so ridiculuous I can't imagine any other explanation for your posting it than that you read Mr. Pilger's ignorant bullshit and repeated it without thinking or looking into it on your own, i.e., you regurgitated it.

Now, I do happen to have opinions on, for instance, landmines. Happy to share those, and to discuss the topic with people who seriously care about it. But if you were sincere about it, you wouldn't be here saying all this crap about what is it PPI and all that irrelevant crap, because there are real present day issues having to do with landmines, sides that have been taken, actions that need to be taken, and so forth.

I mention google for the sake of others who are reading this and aren't keeping up with the icbl or the vvaf campaign or the friends or others, well, then, they can google and learn for themselves. And it ought to be too obvious to mention, I'll admit, but it's the kind of confusion one might expect when one repeats bullshit propaganda and doesn't bother doing even the most rudimentary googling.

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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #63
66. Is "question" also a figure of speech to you?
See, Mr. Pilger DIDN'T ask ANY questions, let alone the same ones. Mr. Pilger quoted the PPI out of context, erecting associative constructions of his own intent. I do not. His entire article is more of the same "negligible difference" crap that I reject utterly. I want to read more about the differences, not the similarities.

If I were interested in quoting Pilger to attack Kerry, I would have said, "During the Clinton years, the principal welfare safety nets were taken away and poverty in America increased sharply; a multibillion-dollar missile 'defence' system known as Star Wars II was instigated; the biggest war and arms budget in history was approved; biological weapons verification was rejected, along with a comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty, the establishment of an international criminal court and a worldwide ban on landmines. Contrary to a myth that places the blame on Bush, the Clinton administration in effect destroyed the movement to combat global warming." ( Bush or Kerry? No difference / By John Pilger)

Tell me where you see any "so-called questions" in Pilger's paragraph. I see a lot of assertions, no questions tho. I'm honestly asking for opinions about whether you think Kerry can accomplish these, and a few other things, on which Clinton admittedly did let us down.

> I can't imagine any other explanation for your posting it than that
> you read Mr. Pilger's ignorant bullshit and repeated it without
> thinking or looking into it on your own

I chose to ask people here what their opinions are of John Kerry's foreign policy stance, to see the differences from Pilger's analysis. The fact that you chose to attack the topic itself rather than give your opinions on the matter... well, I take it as a sign that you're another dog-tired Kerry defender who's been putting up with a lot of shit on this forum for a while now. Fair enough, I can see how it was misconstrued.

However, as I've pointed out to Feanorcurufinwe (damn that's hard to type) the link between the PPI position paper and Kerry (that Pilger brought up as well) is not irrelevant; it is something that merits a fair bit of discussion. Why, if the two are thoroughly unrelated, do Kerry's speech and the PPI position paper have such striking similarities?
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. there are such things as rhetorical questions....
But this isn't a dispute about precision in cavillations. After all, regurgitation is rather a euphemism, isn't it?

So, let's get to the source of some striking similarities.

Pilger opines:

The truth is that Clinton was little different from Bush, a crypto-fascist. During the Clinton years, the principal welfare safety nets were taken away and poverty in America increased sharply; a multibillion-dollar missile "defence" system known as Star Wars II was instigated; the biggest war and arms budget in history was approved; biological weapons verification was rejected, along with a comprehensive nuclear test ban treaty, the establishment of an international criminal court and a worldwide ban on landmines. Contrary to a myth that places the blame on Bush, the Clinton administration in effect destroyed the movement to combat global warming.


Are not the questions you asked, the points you raised, strikingly similar to the points touched upon in this paragraph? Are they any more or less irrelevant for being presented as bullet points?

Organism, I am tired. Maybe you do have something you want to talk about in regards to PPI.

The reason *I* am calling it irrelevant is that I didn't see for instance the PPI document saying anything about landmines, and what I see is a string of associations with little logical connection. Kerry and Bush for instance both speak English and are US citizens and so on. And Kerry and Clinton were members of the same party, and they both have connections to the New Democrats, and they all have foreign policy ideas. But landmines? Uh uh. There's no underlying connection that I can see. Global Warming?--Again, Kerry has his own ideas, and his own record on the topic. If Kerry's views on global warming are the issue, any affiliation with Dems and New Dems is less telling than his own speeches and positions. That's why I say it's irrelevant. I'm sure Feanor will debate you on points of interest to him as he sees fit, but as for myself, I've had enough.

Good night.
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WitchWay Donating Member (558 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #63
67. About rudimentary googling
Edited on Sun Mar-07-04 03:31 AM by WitchWay
PPI is not irrelevant - because Kerry calls for a "bold progressive internationalism" on his site.
I read the paper on this bold progressive internationalism, and it sounds like imperialism. (read it carefully, it's not nice foreign policy).
so, you only need kerry's website and the PPI article to tell that there bullshit foreign policy planning going on.

By the way, you may want to do some googling yourself on Rand Beers.
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gottaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. you forgot to mention skull and bones
also eminently googlable

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WitchWay Donating Member (558 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 04:00 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. So you think Rand Beers is a "conspiracy"?
Rand Beers is Kerry's top national security advisor. (or is that "tinfoil-hatism?)
If you support Kerry - you would be wise to look into who his advisors are.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-07-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. Rand Beers turned on BushInc., refusing to continue doing it their way.
Edited on Sun Mar-07-04 11:58 AM by blm
Try reading the transcript of his appearance on Nightline last summer where he talked about the incompetence of the Bush White House and their poor handling of national security.

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