I'm very sad and a tad angry

[never_get_over_it]

I will start by saying I truly do not like either Obama or Clinton - I may dislike Clinton a bit more because I use to LOVE her and she has let me down SO MANY TIMES that it is more personal

I do not think either one is particularly progressive and I don't believe their is a nickels worth of difference on issues between them

I am sad an a tad angry - because I have found myself leaning (and sort of defending Clinton) a bit more towards Clinton than Obama because I think some of the dislike of hers is due to sexism. Hard to really determine completely because she also has that whole Clinton baggage

BUT I've always thought that a black man would be accepted for almost anything long before any color of woman - because sadly it doesn't seem to matter what color it is but it sure does matter if you have one....

I was stunned the weekend before NH primary - there were so many sexist remarks here at DU - and sadly MANY of the folks didn't even realize what they were saying was sexist.

So I'm sad because sexism IS alive and well and you know I know racism is too - AND I think the Dems have all but pushed the progressives right the hell out of this party....

Oh my I'm so trying to cheer up and so wish I could be excited and get behind one of these two - but I just can't

[NC_Nurse]

1. I've noticed the sexism too.

I think it's one of those things that is so ingrained in our culture that people don't
have a second thought about it. Whereas, saying something racist is going to be
noticed and addressed immediately.
Sexism has been around for millenia, people don't often pay a price for it because
often women put up with it - or even agree with it. After all, they wouldn't want to come off bitchy,
now would they? ;-)

I am wavering between the candidates myself. I was disappointed when Edwards packed it in. I guess
I'm resigned to change in SMALL increments. Either one of these candidates is a step forward in this
society and anyone is better than the Repubs continuing their reign of terra.

[never_get_over_it]

2. Oh absolutely

I will support either one in November - but I just wish I could be excited about it....


hopefully it will get better....

[NC_Nurse]

3. This has been a bad primary season.

I think it will get better. Until then have a hug. :hug:

[never_get_over_it]

4. Thanks

I needed that!!!!!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. I'm unclear as to what you mean by "sexist"

I'm a 57 year old woman. I've faced what I call sexism all my life-from the time when my mother, a divorcee, was denied credit strictly because she was a woman, through to my first job when I was paid less money than men doing the same work. Denying credit, unequal pay for equal work, and not allowing women to have certain jobs is what I call sexism. Using excuses like PMS to deny women jobs or the like is sexism.

But I've been criticized here because I used the term "Mrs. Clinton" to describe one of the candidates (I call her husband "Mr. Clinton"). I've never understood why using the term "Mrs." is sexist, especially in this day and age. "Mrs." doesn't deny someone equal pay, doesn't deny someone a job, or unequal pay for equal work.

This is the "sexist" thing I've been criticized for. What other "sexist" remarks have been made?

[never_get_over_it]

21. I normally wouldn't think Mrs. was sexist

especially if you say Mrs. Smith or Mrs. Carol Smith as opposed to Mrs. John Smith - because if you are identifying a woman by her husband I think that is sexist - frankly I don't use the term Mrs at all

But it is even more so in this case - it is a subtle way to remind people that she is the wife of Bill Clinton - either to point out she wouldn't be anywhere without him a la Chris Matthews - or to remind the people who hated Bill Clinton to associate her with him....it is subtle

I heard Jesse Jackson Jr refer to her as Mrs. Clinton and Obama as Senator Obama that is CLEARLY sexism and aimed to remind people she is the WIFE of Bill Clinton AND I called his office and blasted him for it.

the proper title for her is Senator Clinton

an example the night of the debate someone posted something like I'm so proud we have a black man and a spouse of an ex POTUS - now that is sexism.... he is a black man and she is a WIFE...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

24. Funny, when I posted it,

I wasn't even thinking that way. I can't remember how to spell her first name, and so I always write "Clinton" when I'm talking about her alone in a post. I only used the "Mrs." when I was already talking about her husband, and it was to avoid confusion as to whom I was talking about. Now, if he's already mentioned in a post, what the ding dong difference does the "Mrs" make? And sorry, but I don't like using political titles-we are all citizens.

As for what others say--like what Mr. Jackson said--in that context I could see it is sexist.

As for her not being "anywhere without him"--I think Mr. Clinton brought up that question himself by his actions in SC. I've even heard about this on boards and groups that are usually not political--so I think discussing his actions in regards to the effect on his campaign was valid and not sexist.

[never_get_over_it]

25. I completely understand what you are saying

about not being anywhere without him generally speaking I do not think she would be a serious Presidential candidate if Bill Clinton had not been President. And I don't think the freak-in-chief would have spent one minute as pResident had his father not been GHW Bush. But some people took it WAY past that in particular Chris Matthews and he was CLEARLY sexist if not misogynist

But one point that applies to the family connection for Clinton that doesn't apply to Bush - is who knows where Bill Clinton would have been without her hard work and support and who know what she might have done if she hadn't married Bill Clinton - she is a VERY BRIGHT woman and was politically active before they got married - on the other hand the freak in the White House would have never amounted to anything without his daddy and grand daddy....

[Pharlo]

32. I agree, a lot of people fail to realize, or lambaste the fact that

Former President William J. Clinton and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton are a political unit. While, individually politically adept, combined both of their abilities are strengthened. The question of whether Bill Clinton would have risen, politically, as far or as swiftly as he had without her at his side is as equally valid as whether she would have risen as far as she did without him.

Granted, she may have been running for the office of President of the United States as a senator from Illinois rather than a senator from New York. Possibly from the seat that Barack Obama is now occupying.

Both of the Clintons would have been drawn to politics even had they not met and married. How far either of them would have gotten is an unknown. I agree with you that it's not right to emphatically state that without being a former First Lady, she would never have ran for president is wrong. What it did give her was national name recognition. And, in the case of the Clinton's, that could be a con as much as a pro.

[surfermaw]

5. Absolute difference in the two ...Experience

We know the Clinton administration was an excellent one.. Stoped a Bush recession, paid of debts of 17 trillion left by Republican Bush Administration. Put the nation back to work in just a few months, jobs were plentifull. Remember the talk of the nation working ony four days a week, Remember the time when people could go in and tell the companies what they had to give them to takd jobs, Oh my I long for more Clinton days in the United States, and remember this FOLK...All this while Bill Clinton had to deal with a Republican Congress and REpublican Senate.. and lets don't for get Newt Gringrich. Now don't tell me there is no difference in Obama and Clinton. Obama is about where the Clintons were when Bill Clinton about 4 years out of College ran for the Arknansas Governor.

[GalleryGod]

12. However...echoing down the corridors of American Political History..

It's about JUDGEMENT...
IWR VOTE=YES.
Levin Amendment= NO.
Immigration Wall/Fence construction VOTE= YES!

[never_get_over_it]

23. Obama did not vote AGAINST IWR

and it is unfair to give him credit for it - you need to compare apples to apples which is their Iraq votes in the Senate while they both served and both had an opportunity to vote - and my understanding is the votes are about tied...

and what is your answer to Obama not even having the balls to vote one way or the other on Kyl LIEberman - that makes me think he is VERY politically calculating and when push comes to shove that is what he would revert back to - instead of taking a stand and fighting for it - which is EXACTLY how Clinton is - not a nickels worth of difference.

this is exactly why I don't like either of them....

[shaniqua6392]

6. Racism will be cured before sexism.

Women are still being left behind. The country is more apt to elect a black man before we will see a woman in the White House. Sexism is alive and well....You are unfortunately correct. I can not get excited about either of these candidates either. The fighting here on DU has just driven me away from both of them. The whole process has become disgusting and divisive. I am getting to the point where I just want it to be over with. All of this fighting will look really stupid if a Repuke wins while we are all yelling at each other. It has become Dem against Dem, instead of Dem against Repuke.

[never_get_over_it]

7. You know

25 years ago when I was a puppy I worked to get the ERA passed - one of our points was that women make 79cents on the dollar compared to men - wasn't I surprised to hear Hillary say the other day it is now 77cents on the dollar - in all those years it has actually gotten worse

I personally found out several years ago I was being massively underpaid compared to other people in the same position - now I'm not completely sure this is because I am a woman - BUT I started the career path in 1987 and LAST year 20 years later my manger told me I am finally in the pay grid of my job band - oh the bottom of that grid - and since I've been in that band for at least 6 years I feel I am still being under paid - so for 20 years out of the almost 26 years I've worked for this company I have been paid less than my peers - and by the way I always get good performance reviews - very annoying - and oh by the way my women managers DID WAY more to get me to where I was suppose to be compared to the male managers...very disheartening...

[goldcanyonaz]

11. Many of the young women who support Obama have yet to experience sexism.

They're going to be in for a rude awakening once they hit the job force. I'm sickened by the portrayal of Clinton by the media and also her opponent. My husband is so disgusted that he won't even vote for Obama. He says our party is not the party he thought it was.

[Darth_Kitten]

29. I agree.......

A few years in the workforce will make younger women a little too tired of always having to agree with their boyfriend of the moment's opinion.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

8. Niether are progressive

and I won't vote in the primary. What's the use? My primary Feb. 5 is only for President. I'll vote on May 20 for Congress/local races. Maybe there someone will run who better represents my thinking.

[never_get_over_it]

13. Go vote in the primary

for the progressive you love/like - don't let them take that away from you

I voted in Fl where the delegates might not even be seated - although I think they will because FL is TOO important in the general election and the Dems would be FUCKING RETARDED not to seat them same for MI

But I voted for Edwards and feel pretty good about that - BUT had I known Edwards would drop out less than 24 hours after I voted - which shocked the shit out of me by the way - I would have voted for Dennis....

go vote - really it will make you happy to take a stand....

[shaniqua6392]

15. I live in Michigan.

I know how you felt about voting this year in our states. What a terrible feeling that was. I ended up voting for Clinton rather than uncommitted. I did not want someone to be able to use my vote as a proxy. I would have voted for Edwards or Dennis, but figured my uncommitted vote would end up in the Obama camp. I am still not too sure about him yet. I was always told that if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I feel like he is a sham, for some reason I can't quite put my finger on. Just a gut feeling. I don't love either of the two that are left standing. I am not sure I even like them at all. What a crappy year for some of us. Very discouraging.

[never_get_over_it]

19. I think IF he had more experience

but he has only spent three years in the Senate - and he has really not shown any particular leadership there - which isn't surprising because he was a newbie - I just think it is pretty darn arrogant for him to be running NOW - if one of them is a VP candidate it should be Clinton/Obama and then in eight years Obama could run...

and the fact that he didn't even bother to vote one way or the other on Kyl/LIEberman is actually worse than Hillary voting for it - at least she had the balls to vote.

That not voting REALLY REALLY bothers me

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

22. Sorry, no point

I've voted for whom I like ever since Eugene McCarthy. Each time, I find that it makes less and less of a difference. Don't even think Kucinich is on the ballot, and if he is, what difference will it make? His progressive ideas will be ignored and dismissed. Once again November will be a choice between cancer and polio--I'll hold my nose and vote Democratic, but my heart won't be in it. The party obviously doesn't give a tinker's dam for me or people who think like me. My only hope is to work at a very local level, vote in a good sheriff and constable.

[never_get_over_it]

26. I hear you

the Democratic party has left the progressives in the dust - they are even fighting against or at least not helping progressive in Congressional races IT SO SUCKS - I've been a Dem since I was a child but I'm about to give it up and officially call myself and independent or progressive....

[goldcanyonaz]

9. This election is proof that "you've come a long way baby" was bullshit.

The glass ceiling is still firmly in place.

[GalleryGod]

10. Obama has raised another $2 Million in FEBRUARY ;YIKES!

February 6th...


Ted Sorenson

Saddle-Up and best of luck to ALL Campaigns! Post-Super Tuesady.

[Armstead]

14. I share your disappointment -- but disagree about the sexism

I agree with you totally that we have two candidates in that grey political area of "centrism" at a time when we most need a liberal and progressive champion.

However, I do think it would be a mistake to dwell on sexism or racism too much. Sure there was some of that, but it was no more pronounced as any of the other factors that have been used as negative frameworks against candidates.

Kucinich was written off in part because he is short and kind of funny looking. John Edwards got marginalized because he is a southern WASP, and was TOO good looking and successful. Biden and Dodd were made invisible because they are colorless middle-aged white guys....Mitt Romney gets it because he is a Mormon. John McCain is too old.......Huckabee is too religious....Rudy is an Italian from New York and is associated with crooks.....etc.

It's a shame such stereotypes become shorthand that deflects from what candidates want to do and who they are as individuals.

But if f race or gender entitle a candidate to special kid-gloves treatment, that's not progress either IMO.

[WillyT]

16. Well... Speaking For Myself...

it ain't about sexism. If Barbara Boxer had thrown her hat into the ring, I would have supported her heart and soul. But when I mention that to people, they say, "Barbara Boxer??? She's too liberal and would never get elected."

But see, I'm a liberal, and I tend to vote for those who I'm in agreement with over the issues.

The modern Democratic Party has always been a stitching together of political interest groups, ie., Women's Rights, Minority Rights, Civil Rights, Labor Rights, Anti-War\Peace Groups, etc...

This year we have a "perfect storm" scenario with the coming together of, 7 years of abusive Republican rule, many well-qualified candidates, and a front-loaded primary season.

And I've gone from Kucinich to Edwards to Obama in my support. If Hillary gets the nomination, she will get my vote. That's the way this process tends to work.

My fear is putting Hillary Clinton up against John McCain. Others here have the exact same fear of putting up Barack Obama as the Democratic standard bearer. I don't think either of those concerns is necessarily sexist, or racist.

Posted my thoughts here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4311060

Which curiously were fleshed out in more detail here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x4329388

Ya think this guy is reading my stuff, LOL !!!

:hi:

[AGirl]

17. I totally agree with you there

I am so sick of this whole election and the candidates. I wish they would all go away

[sendero]

18. It is just as sexist.

.. to be FOR a candidate because of their gender as it is to oppose a candidate for the same reason.

I have zero problem with a female president. I'm just tired of the Bush-like "say one thing vote another" style of HRC.

[Levgreee]

28. good point, I think Hillary might gain just as much votes as she loses, from sexism

I mean, read what the NOW person said. There are an sizable amount of women strongly swayed towards Clinton, because she is a woman. The majority of voters are woman, and very few Democrats are sexist, imo... there may be subtle sexism because of how Hillary appears abrasive, nagging, etc., but I don't know if I buy that, I see many, many women speak who do not come off that way... it is more a part of her presentation and what she says, rather than 'because she is a woman'.

[sendero]

31. I have never thought of her..

... as particularly "nagging" or even "bitchy". I just don't like what she DOES. She casts a vote for the other side and then issues a long statement saying why it doesn't mean what it clearly means. The fact that she comes up with the statement is proof she knows damn well what the vote means.

And oh, well I have to admit, that laugh she trots out every time she is asked an uncomfortable question is downright creepy.

[never_get_over_it]

33. Do you realize that

"Hillary appears abrasive, nagging, etc" is SEXIST

This is exactly what I mean sexism is SO INGRAINED that people don't even know when they are doing it...

The chance that anyone would say a male candidate was abbrasive or nagging are slim to NONE -

THANK YOU for proving my point....

[Levgreee]

27. I would RATHER vote for a female than male, and I am male

on average, there is just something that some females have that males lack, that I think lots of our male presidents have lacked. But I don't think Obama lacks it, he was raised by a single(very good) mother, I also was, and I know that is one thing that can change how a person thinks and approaches problems.

[Liberalboy]

30. I noticed it too

Even in the debates, and the reactions from crowds, and here on DU. Sigh...

[ginchinchili]

34. Interesting that you're reached this conclusion...

just as the Democrats have chosen a woman and an African American as their standard bearers. Your logic defies reality.